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hasserl
04-09-2011, 12:39 PM
I was watching a .38 cal S&W model 10-5 on Gun Broker, that had a nice price on it. I called a local FFL dealer before I bid on the gun to check about it, and he told me that if that specific model is not on the Handgun Roster that he could not transfer it to me, not dealer to dealer to me. He did say that a private party transfer was legal, but as soon as it goes from one dealer to another it becomes a dealer item and not legal. The 10-14 is the only model 10 that is on the roster.

Needless to say, I was bummed out about that, but I really don't fully understand how the system works. First off, does what I posted above look accurate as far as the law? Is the dealer wrong about the transfer? (I may have misunderstood him, but he was pretty specific that that I could not purchase that model and have it transferred to me thru him) Is it correct that the specific dash model has to be on the roster, that the model 10-14 is not "close enough"? All those old S&W revolvers cannot be purchased in CA? I mean, there's a lot of nice old revolvers, they're not old enough for C&R status, we're just SOL?

p.s. sorry if this isn't the right forum, seems like a 2A issue, maybe not.

HowardW56
04-09-2011, 12:42 PM
Yes, the dealer was correct. The model you were interested in the 10-5, is a model 10, revision 5 revolver. The only revolver approved for dealer sale is a model 10, revision 14 revolver.

it is confusing and espically sucks when the gun you are interested in is probably a better made product that the approved version.

I am a big fan of older S&W revolvers...

bwiese
04-09-2011, 1:03 PM
I was watching a .38 cal S&W model 10-5 on Gun Broker, that had a nice price on it. I called a local FFL dealer before I bid on the gun to check about it, and he told me that if that specific model is not on the Handgun Roster that he could not transfer it to me, not dealer to dealer to me. He did say that a private party transfer was legal, but as soon as it goes from one dealer to another it becomes a dealer item and not legal. The 10-14 is the only model 10 that is on he roster.

....does what I posted above look accurate as far as the law? Is the dealer wrong about the transfer?

He is correct generally. Good old guns that are not on the Roster cannot generally become or transfer thru as 'dealer inventory' - only way they can be transferred as-is in CA is thru PPT transfer between CA residents.

Also, folks that have lineal family (grandparent/parent/child/grandchild) in another state could be gifted an off-Roster handgun. Many CA FFLs do not know this, but some FFLs do do 'interstate intrafamily Roster exempt' transfers.

Probate/operation-of-law transfers are also Roster exempt.

Single-shot pistols with barrels 6" or longer and overall length at 10.5" or more are Roster exempt. So are single-action revolvers with at least 5 round capacity, 3" min barrel length and 7.5" min overall length

Is it correct that the specific dash model has to be on the roster, that the model 10-14 is not "close enough"? All those old S&W revolvers cannot be purchased in CA? I mean, there's a lot of nice old revolvers, they're not old enough for C&R status, we're just SOL?Mostly yes, unless some hoops are jumped thru - see below.

p.s. sorry if this isn't the right forum, seems like a 2A issue, maybe not.Hasserl, indeed this is the correct forum.

CGF's "Roster" lawsuit (Pena v. Cid) seeks to kill this. It's unfortunately been stayed until outcome of Nordyke case (even though it really should have been a 'go' after McDonald v Chicago).

Now, S&W revolvers can indeed become 12133-exempt single-action revolvers (if they are dimensionally compliant: 3" min bbl length/7.5" min overall length).

Remember, the definition of 'single-action revolver' does not mean "looks like a cowboy gun/Colt SAA"; matters of removable vs. tilt-out-on-crane cylinders are wholly separate from action type and irrelevant to this discussion.

Also, the S&W Model 14-3 is a factory single-action 38Spl revolver: it has no DA operation, and requires separate cocking and trigger pulling actions to fire the gun. I believe I was the first (knowing, intentional) importer & DROSer (thru CA FFL) of such a gun under the single-action exemption several years ago. Another party has since bought the gun from me several years later; again it was transfered FFL->FFL as a single-action Roster-exempt revolver.

Other S&W revolvers can 'become' single-action revolvers by careful removal of the "DA sear". This part can later be reinstalled by you or a competent gunsmith. Note that care should be used in this operation, as one would not want to damage the knife-edge when removing sideplate; hollow-ground 'gunsmith' screwdrivers should be used to not mar screwheads.

Such a single-action conversion should occur by the supplying out-of-state party before the gun enters CA due to nebulousness of 12125PC. If a CA person is supplying such a gun to be shipped to a CA FFL, that party should either do the conversion himself, or have it gunsmithed appropriately. The destination/receiving FFL should not do this conversion UNLESS HE IS A FFL-07 "Manufacturing" FFL.

The buyer then DROSes the S&W dimensionally compliant single-action revolver, waits 10 days and picks up his gun (with a spare piece of metal, the DA sear, in an envelope). The buyer is then free to convert the single-action revolver back to a double action revolver if he cares to - either doing the work himself, or walking out his FFL's door, and walking back in with the gun that requires "gunsmithing services".

HowardW56
04-09-2011, 1:46 PM
OK Bill, I gave him the nickle answer, you gave him $10.00 worth...

I agree you are absolutely correct, but for most practical applications and without some additional effort by multiple parties, it would be a no go...

hasserl
04-11-2011, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the replies and the information. Unfortunately, getting someone to modify a gun for me in order to send it to CA is a long shot at best. Most guys will just sell to someone not in CA. Good info though, just the same. Here's hoping the outcome of Pena v. Cid will be positive.

bwiese
04-11-2011, 12:23 PM
OK Bill, I gave him the nickle answer, you gave him $10.00 worth...

I agree you are absolutely correct, but for most practical applications and without some additional effort by multiple parties, it would be a no go...

I think in the short term you will find more and more CA Leadership FFLs (with 07FFLs) deaing with the hassles of non-Rostered handguns. There may well be a cost for overhead, but transfers are possible... look at all the Glock Gen 4s being sold legally thru the single-shot exemption by various FFLs.