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cousin avy
04-08-2011, 10:42 PM
First Off, I apologize if this specific topic has been discussed elsewhere or on a different thread. An hour or so of searching with no luck led me to the last resort of starting a new thread. I am new to Cal guns, and the whole "forum" arena, so anything I say or do here that is in bad form, please correct me immediately. I appreciate the vast amounts of information which comprise this forum, and am grateful for all of you who contribute their time, research, opinions and discussions.

I was wondering if anyone would care to offer their opinion on several "locked container questions."

Question 1:

Would a backpack, with one of its individual, separate compartments having two zippers with a lock between them (thus preventing one from opening that particular compartment) constitute as a locked container for ULCC

Question 2:

Would a fanny pack, (specifically one designed to hold a compact handgun - the type many LEO's and CCW Authorized Individuals use to CCW) having two zippers with a lock between them (thus preventing one from opening that particular compartment) constitute as a locked container for ULCC

Question 3:

If the answer to the above two questions is yes, would it be legal for one to wear said backpack on one's back, or wear said fanny pack on one's waist?

I appreciate any responses, and fully understand that any opinions or information provided by those who post replys to this thread are not in any way legal advice, and could vary from county to county depending on where one resides. If it helps, I live in Santa Clara County. Any advice on how I posed my questions or initiated this thread are also welcome. Again, thank you all for your input.

G1500
04-08-2011, 11:05 PM
I would have to say yes for all three questions, however, I am not a lawyer, LEO, or a jury of your peers.

ETA, your question was just whether or not those items constituted a locked container for LUCC.

Purple K
04-09-2011, 2:40 AM
Yes to your questions. Prior to getting my CCW I used both of those methods as well as a Maxpedition messenger bag to carry a loaded magazine and unloaded handgun.

mrdd
04-09-2011, 10:12 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=329262

ETA: The only way to really lock a soft sided container with a zipper is to block the zipper shoe itself from moving along the zipper track.

Army
04-09-2011, 3:53 PM
While there is no legal definition of a locked container cited in the law, logic says to make it as hard-sided as possible. Basically, if easy to mild manipulation of the zipper or lock can gain access to the inside, then that container should not be considered.

CaliforniaLiberal
04-09-2011, 5:36 PM
Welcome to CalGuns Cousin Avy.

This question has been asked many times before and there is no unambiguous, set in stone answer. "Locked container" is not defined by law. So far as I know it has never been a matter of contention in a California courtroom.

My understanding of the CalGuns consensus is that zippered cases that can be locked with a small padlock and are not easy to opened by folding or skrunching the sides together do meet the requirement. Spend some time with your zippered case and think like Houdini, try to find a way to get it open without removing the padlock.

If it's secure, I say it's good to go. I have no education or experience or license in law. I read the legal arguments on CalGuns and have learned a lot.

It is possible that law enforcement or a District Attorney may have a different opinion about soft sided, locked, zippered cases at some point in time.

In reality, you're on your own, figuring this out for yourself like the rest of us.

woodey
04-09-2011, 7:59 PM
Would a Zip Tie work as the "Lock" ?

N6ATF
04-09-2011, 8:49 PM
It would certainly make it obvious that it was broken into without a warrant.

cousin avy
04-10-2011, 5:52 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=329262

ETA: The only way to really lock a soft sided container with a zipper is to block the zipper shoe itself from moving along the zipper track.

Thank you for the link. I just got done reading the entire thread . . . wow that topic went on for while - but for good reason I suppose. I guess I better make sure those zippers on my fannypack cannot be manipulated!! Obviously, my search skills are lacking. And an additional round of thanks for all those who responded to this thread. I really appreciate all of your input. My reason for asking this question stemmed from the idea of using a fanny pack in the fashion I described above to ULCC while visiting some of the State/National Parks that now allow open carry.

Personally, though I support the concept of Open Carry, I myself do not feel comfortable carrying openly. It is not so much a worry that I would not be able to get the weapon hot quickly enough, but rather the discomfort it would give others around me and the blatantly obvious fact that I am openly carrying a gun, which could provoke un-necessary interaction with LEO's, or worse case some would be a**hole would see me Open Carrying before I could notice him and get the drop on me, take my gun, and game over.

CaliforniaLiberal - I thank you for your Houdini comment . . . . I will do everything I can think of to "MacGyver" my way into the locked compartment without removing the lock, to make sure there is no access into the compartment with the weapon unless of course the lock is removed.

ARMY - You also have a very valid point worth discussion. The term "locked container" is a very ambiguous and gray area IMHO. I suppose, at the end of the day, as I have seen in many other threads and discussions here, it is up to me to decide if it's worth trying, and see what the outcome is if I do. I plan on consulting with the various LEO contacts I have, and perhaps a call to the local rangers station would be a wise idea . . . .

Decoligny
04-10-2011, 9:11 AM
Would a Zip Tie work as the "Lock" ?

No, the law requires it to be either a key type lock or a combination type lock IIRC.

G1500
04-10-2011, 9:24 AM
No, the law requires it to be either a key type lock or a combination type lock IIRC.

(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key
lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

mrdd
04-10-2011, 1:04 PM
Thank you for the link. I just got done reading the entire thread . . . wow that topic went on for while - but for good reason I suppose. I guess I better make sure those zippers on my fannypack cannot be manipulated!! Obviously, my search skills are lacking. And an additional round of thanks for all those who responded to this thread. I really appreciate all of your input. My reason for asking this question stemmed from the idea of using a fanny pack in the fashion I described above to ULCC while visiting some of the State/National Parks that now allow open carry.

You're welcome. It took me a bit to find the thread, and I remembered reading it a while back. The video clip in the top post is quite illustrative of the problem.

The point I took from it is that locking the zipper tab itself is generally not sufficient. The only "foolproof" method is to block the shoe from moving along the zipper track, and I don't know of any packs or bags which lock like that.

As for what really constitutes a locked container for a firearm in California, I would suggest the following properties:

1) Is sealed by a lock which requires a key or combination to open
2) The contents cannot be accessed without destroying the container or the lock
3) The container or lock cannot be opened quickly or trivially by cutting or breaking

While (3) is quite subjective, the idea is that breaking it open requires some sort of tool, and even so is more difficult than opening it normally with the key or combination.

The standard disclaimer applies: I am an engineer, not a lawyer.

choprzrul
04-10-2011, 1:28 PM
Find the Matt Hart video thread and then carefully ponder whether or not keyed locks are a good idea.

Personally, I have been replacing my keyed padlocks for combo'd ones that I can set myself.

.

G1500
04-10-2011, 2:01 PM
Find the Matt Hart video thread and then carefully ponder whether or not keyed locks are a good idea.

Personally, I have been replacing my keyed padlocks for combo'd ones that I can set myself.

.

I use Master lock locks with a resettable combo. I set them all the same and when I lock it up to travel, I only change one number instead of shuffling the entire set.

http://content.etilize.com/Large/11964888.jpg

Kind of bulky, but I have used them forever for all different uses and it is convenient.

paul0660
04-10-2011, 2:15 PM
My reason for asking this question stemmed from the idea of using a fanny pack in the fashion I described above to ULCC while visiting some of the State/National Parks that now allow open carry.

AFAIK, possessing guns in State Parks except for CCW and in campsites is still murky, and open carry a definite do not:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457

Librarian
04-10-2011, 2:21 PM
You're welcome. It took me a bit to find the thread, and I remembered reading it a while back. The video clip in the top post is quite illustrative of the problem.

The point I took from it is that locking the zipper tab itself is generally not sufficient. The only "foolproof" method is to block the shoe from moving along the zipper track, and I don't know of any packs or bags which lock like that.

As for what really constitutes a locked container for a firearm in California, I would suggest the following properties:

1) Is sealed by a lock which requires a key or combination to open
2) The contents cannot be accessed without destroying the container or the lock
3) The container or lock cannot be opened quickly or trivially by cutting or breaking

While (3) is quite subjective, the idea is that breaking it open requires some sort of tool, and even so is more difficult than opening it normally with the key or combination.

The standard disclaimer applies: I am an engineer, not a lawyer.

... which is why I proposed the 'ten-year-old' rule - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1711983&postcount=22 any container which can be opened, entered or otherwise defeated by an average ten year old boy, without the key or the combination, and without cutting or smashing tools, is too weak to be even laughably called "secure".

Etihtsarom
04-10-2011, 3:55 PM
My reason for asking this question stemmed from the idea of using a fanny pack in the fashion I described above to ULCC while visiting some of the State/National Parks that now allow open carry.
Better check the park. Yosemite for example prohibits discharging of firearms even if it is legal to carry in there. Course in the face of a bear in my face, I'll shoot first and pay the penalty later, but you know...

paul0660
04-10-2011, 4:04 PM
Yosemite for example prohibits discharging of firearms even if it is legal to carry in there.

That is correct, and what it means is that you can unloaded open carry and not loaded open carry, and you can do neither in the school zone there nor in posted federal buildings. You can LUCC there, and CCW too, not in the buildings but in the school zone. AND, unless you CCW, you may not possess ammo on the school grounds (but it is ok in the school zone.). Easy!

cousin avy
04-10-2011, 4:19 PM
Very good comments . . . I appreciate it and 100% agree. I understand the reason for them not allowing the discharge of a firearm . . . target shooting, hunting, celebration, etc. . . . But if your life is put in jeopardy by a wild animal attack or a criminal, I will do whatever I can to stop the threat and god willing . . . .prevent myself or a loved one from grave injury or death. Who knows . . . maybe there would be an exception to that law if the situation described above were to actually occur. I just don't want to get caught with my pants down . . . no vehicle, miles away form help, typically no cellular coverage. . . . . It's a situation that just has bad news written all over it if something were to go astray.

DeanW66
04-10-2011, 8:52 PM
Also as somebody else recently mentioned in a thread with a similar question: here on CGN we usually refer to it as LUCC rather than ULCC. That can help with your searches.

AXI
04-10-2011, 11:03 PM
Buy some goth pants with the buckles and put a padlock on one of the pockets.

sudo apt-get update sarcasm

cousin avy
04-11-2011, 8:58 PM
Also as somebody else recently mentioned in a thread with a similar question: here on CGN we usually refer to it as LUCC rather than ULCC. That can help with your searches.

Thank you for the polite correction. I should have known better . . . my apologies for slaughtering the CalGun language.

I never did like goth pants with buckles. . . I am sure a ten year old boy could defeat a locked pocket on a pair of goth pants . . . Of coarse, the only thing you could do to make yourself look like more of an idiot than wearing a fanny pack would be to wear a fanny pack while wearing goth pants. I suppose I am just second guessing myself with the whole fanny pack idea. It really does make you look like a tourist . . .

My apologies to the CalGunners out there if this thread is a repeat of another. It seems, thanks to the help of those who replied here, that I need some significant improvement in my search skills. Hopefully, I have not turned into "that forum guy".....