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G-Solutions
04-08-2011, 10:33 PM
Living in one of the most restrictive states in the US one is sometimes forced to get very creative to find effective defensive tools.
For those who are not familiar with California's laws, centerfire autoloader rifles are highly restricted to the point where many police officers will err on the side of caution and take a rifle in for safe keeping if they are not sure whether or not it fall under California Assault Weapons Law.
That said, two years ago, I began looking at non-autoloading rifle platforms that will allow a quick rate of fire, handle fast and ambidextrous, have a good choice of effective calibers and hold a decent amount of ammunition. Gabriel Suarez' work on the combat lever action rifle came to mind and I began researching this platform.

Lever Action Platforms:
There are currently two basic systems on the market: Closed-Top/Side eject and Open-Top/Top Eject. What do those terminologies mean and what kind of an impact do they have on us as a user?
The distinction between Closed-Top and Open-Top refers to the layout of the frame when the bolt is opened.
Examples for open-top rifles would be Winchester 94, Mossberg 464 and Rossi 92 Rifles where the bolt covers all or the majority of the top-rear surface of the receiver. When the lever is thrown downward, the rifle opens up on its top surface to allow ejection of the spent shell.
The advantage of this design is that it allows very easy access to the breech when the bolt is retracted to the rear. We will revisit this point later when we come to reactive reloads, meaning that we have to get rounds into a rifle that has been shot dry.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b0147e3d8f3d8970b-pi

Closed-Top rifles have a solid receiver top with an ejection port on the right side. Samples of this Type are Marlin 336 and Marlin 1894c models. The advantage of the Closed-top design is an overall stiffer, stronger receiver.

There is one other characteristic that I need to take a look at: All of the above rifles have loading gates on the right side of the receiver. Single rounds are fed through this port into the magazine tube. There are very few lever-actions out there that have a different loading system. Henry, for example uses a removable magazine spring assembly and a loading port in the lower front of the magazine tube. Since this system makes it very difficult and cumbersome to top the magazine off, I will exclude these rifles from the scope of this article. Don't get me wrong: from all the feedback I've seen, those are good rifles, but I would not make them my first choice in terms of a fighting tool.

Handling Characteristics:
The first thing most people notice about most lever guns, especially a carbines, is how light they are compared to an AK or AR. I'm not talking about vintage reproductions with an eye-catching heavy octagonal barrel. I'm talking about the basic lever action rifles that one can find at a Sporting goods store.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b014e87595adc970d-pi

The low weight makes it a very fast handling gun – and fast on target is good. It comes fast from a porte-arms carry to the shoulder and bringing the rifle around to track is easy. In a mechanical sense: little mass equals little inertia – in common terms, low weight does not have a whole lot of resistance against motion. Snap shots with a lever action rifle are fast, regardless of the ready-position. The same goes for following a laterally moving target. All these movements are swift and require less effort than a heavier fighting rifle such as a modern autoloader. Skeptical? Have a small statured novice handle an AR (just a basic gun with little or no attachments) and a lever gun like a Winchester 94 trapper. Both have a 16” barrel, hence are comparable in size. Most likely, the novice will prefer shooting the lever gun due to its handling characteristics. We’ll revisit these later in a different context.
The light weight is also advantageous if the Lever-Action is used as a bug-out rifle. Lower weight here translates into ease of transport over longer distances. This may not be a huge aspect for people in Urban areas, but consider how many people live in rural places and may have to walk a healthy distance after their car breaks down to get to a phone or to an area with cell-phone coverage. Traveling light has its advantages.
Speaking of transporting the rifle hidden in plain sight: A fully-loaded lever-action fits easily into a camp-chair bag. I've had students help me unload my car when we got to set up for class at the range and most of them were quite surprised that the last bag in the car did not hold another chair, but my rifle.
There are others who take it a step further and remove the shoulder stock for storage. It's only one screw that holds it in place and that screw seems to interact nicely with the screwdriver of a Swiss-Army knife. This is sure not the fastest way to get the rifle into action, but it makes for very compact dimensions for transport.

Caliber Choices and Ammo Capacity:
The aspect of the caliber is two-fold: While each caliber has its ballistic advantages and disadvantages, the size of the cartridges will directly impact the magazine capacity of the rifle.
A handgun-caliber round is overall shorter and will allow for more rounds in the magazine tube than a rifle-caliber in a comparably-sized rifle.

Lever guns typically come in either revolver-type calibers or in the classic lever-action chamberings such as 30-30 and 45-70. There are quite a few other rifle calibers still out there, but I want to keep the focus on those calibers that are common today. Let’s take a closer look at both general variations: the handgun-equivalents and the classic lever-action cartridges:

Handgun Calibers
The most common handgun calibers offered in lever rifles today are .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum and .45 Long Colt. On Rossi and Marlin rilfes .357 and .44 can usually also handle their smaller siblings: .38 Special and .44 Special – offering the option to train with a less expensive round.
One other aspect that comes to mind is that Ruger considered the .44 magnum powerful enough to be a hunting round. They dedicated a magazine fed-lever action (discontinued after 11 years), an autoloader (in production for 13+10 years, now discontinued) and a bolt-action rifle (current production) to that caliber, which shows the popularity of the .44 magnum as a hunting round. I think we can say with a decent level of accuracy that this round seems to have a pretty good reputation for taking game down.
As far as the .357 is concerned, two associates of mine used to go hog-hunting with.357's during handgun season.
These chamberings bring a more than decent amount of power to the table. Another aspect is that many people carry Revolvers in .38/.357 or .44 as their every day defensive tool. Those rounds will have a decent ballistic effect when fired from a 2-inch to 6-inch revolver. 16-inch or more of carbine/rifle barrel increase the muzzle velocity and with that the amount of energy that the projectile carries. In plaintext: the lever action rifle can shoot the same ammo as your revolver and gives the round more oomph on the way –nice!

Classic Rifle Calibers
What about those rifle calibers of old? 30-30 is roughly the ballistic equivalent of a 7.62x39 – a rifle round of choice for many Suarez International students. The projectile will punch through quite a bit of material that some people may consider cover. Recoil on the other hand is bearable. One nice side effect of the thirty-thirty being a non-military round is that was still relatively easy to get even during recent ammunition shortages. It has been around for a long time and people have hunted with it equally long. That said, there are quite a few well-designed expanding bullet types on the market – if it expands well enough to bring a deer down, chances are that it will also help a good deal if you are faced with a two-legged predator.
Now, some people dismiss the 30-30 as not powerful enough – same as the 7.62x39. That be as it may – another option is the 45-70, available for example in the Marlin Guide Gun. This round was designed to take down big game up to the size of a buffalo. That in mind, it should be sufficient to take care of the common bad guy – even if he is hiding behind a car door or something similar.
While the 45-70 is an expensive round, it is also build on a straight casing, which makes it relatively easy to reload.

System Limitations
In terms of ammunition, we also encounter two limitations of the classic tube-fed lever action rifle.
The main limitation of the lever action rifle is its capacity. Depending on caliber and overall length, a lever gun can hold anywhere from 3+1 to 10+1 rounds. Reloading the magazine is relatively slow, since every round has to be loaded individually – no stripper clips or speedloaders can improve that. If one choses to use a lever-action rifle as a defensive weapon, I highly recommend investing into training cartridges and practicing proactive reloads. The idea is to fire a shot or two and immediately push more rounds in through the loading gate. One technique that makes the reloads less cumbersome is to push a round in the majority of the way and hold it with the left hand still inside the loading gate, while the right hand brings another round up. Repeat until the rifle is full. With this sequence you do not have to go through the effort of pushing every single round all the way into the loading gate until it is locked in place. As a failsafe option, practice pushing rounds in until the last round bottoms out part of the way in. You fight as you train and if you work on a tactile feedback (round does not go in) rather than trying to remember a specific number you are much more likely to be successful. Keep a dump pouch or similar in your gear to discard non-used rounds. This can be as simple as a nice, large opening in your ready bag that allows the rounds to fall easily into it.

Now, from what I've seen in my classes, the gun will eventually run dry... now what?

G-Solutions
04-08-2011, 10:36 PM
Impact weapon
There are a couple of possible answers: If the opponent is within striking range, you have a 5+ lbs impact weapon in your hand. Practice striking your opponent with the muzzle of the rifle and include follow-up strikes. The latter part is important: again, you fight like you practice and if your dry-runs stop after the first strike, you will find yourself in a real fight, having smashed the bad guys teeth and hesitating with what to do next.

Transition to Pistol
Second option: the rifle runs dry and you have a couple of seconds until the bad guy closes the distance. In this case sling the rifle and go to pistol. 3.5 seconds and you're back in business with at least another 5 rounds, hopefully more, depending on what kind of handgun you carry.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b014e87595d16970d-pi

I'd like to touch briefly on the sling. A simple 2-point sling with decent length works best for me. The left hand dives in underneath the fore-end (fore-end on left forearm) the right hand remains in position and rotates the butt of the rifle up and counter-clockwise. Once the hand is behind your head you let go and let the sling catch the rifle. While the rifle settles, go for the pistol. I've seen students guide their rifles to a soft, gentle stop. Folks, this is not the time for pleasantries but for aggressive and decisive action. The .5 seconds that make the settling of the rifle more comfortable will not do you any good if these are the .5 seconds that give the bad guy the opportunity to tackle you and foul up your draw. Again, on the risk of sounding like a broken record: you fight like you train.

Reactive Reload
If the rifle is shot dry and you have quite a bit of distance on your side, throw the lever down and load a single shell into the open ejection port. This will sound very familiar for people who shoot shotguns a lot and have the habit of loading the first round into the chamber through the open breach. This is exactly the same principle
I mentioned earlier the advantage of the open-top receiver design of the Winchester 94 and similar rifles. This layout provides plenty of access area to dump a round into the open breech. This is true regardless whether you fire your rifle left-handed or right handed.
A side-eject gun will be considerably slower to reload in this way, since the ejection port is smaller. It also means that a side-eject gun can be loaded most effectively with the right hand, limiting ambidextrous options.
We timed this reloading method and found that even with a 30-30 a firing rate of 3.5 seconds from shot to shot can be accomplished. This requires some additional support gear. Bear with me, I'll get to it in a bit.

No Magazines: Weakness and Strength
So, the lever-action rifle uses on on-board tubular magazine to store the ammunition, unlike a modern autoloader with a detachable magazine. Is that truly a disadvantage? In terms of capacity, the answer is clearly yes. However, lets look at it from a different aspect: With an autoloader, one has to log magazines around and store them in a dump pouch during mag changes. Sure it's fast, but it also means extra gear and dedicated bags.
When I ran the Lever Action Gunfighting rifle course for the first time I used a very basic shoulder bag that held loose ammunition – done! I did not have to worry about keeping magazines. It was the lightest and most compact bag setup I ever used while teaching a rifle class. In terms of simplicity less gear means less weight and less bulk. Even when I upgraded the interior of the bag with loops to hold the rounds more readily available, it remained very compact.

Simplicity of Operation

Feed rounds through the loading gate until no more rounds fit. Swing the lever forward and back get on the sights and press the trigger. Repeat that sequence until the gun goes “Click”.
This concept seems to be easier for most novice shooters than having to deal with an external magazine of an autoloader.
Now add low weapon weight to this equation. I run classes for autoloading rifles as well as for lever actions. The drills are similar. One thing I noticed this fall after working primarily on lever action material during the summer is that the lever action students never complained about the weight of their weapon when we went through dry runs over and over. Credit to my students, none really complained, but it was visible after keeping their rifles up a good stretch of time, that they welcomed the relief when I told them to go to “safe and sling”. The weight issue also reflects in a way earlier experience, when several years ago I’ve got a couple of people started on rifles with a Winchester 94 in .357 Magnum. All tried the AR or AK/Saiga during the same session, but many preferred the lever gun.
Their reason was primarily the low weight, but also the ease of operation and (here is where the comparison is not on equal ground) the low recoil of the .357 compared to 7.62 x 39 and .223.
The students were also more at ease with a rifle that they could reload with single rounds from a dump pouch or directly from the box – without having to deal with a removable magazine.
This does obviously not apply to the more trained shooters but there is certainly an advantage to a completely self-contained system that does not rely on external components (magazines).

Ambidextrous Operation:
Lever guns are ambidextrous in the shooting operation. It does not matter which hand you operate the lever with – no re-thinking or re-training required.
Most autoloaders in comparison have the bolt handle on the right side (such as the AK, SKS, M-1A and SU-16 to name a few. One can train to manipulate it equally well with either hand, but it is a different motion when used with the right hand compared to operation with the left.
Again, this is not an issue for people with a higher level of training. However, For others who use a weapon only occasionally, it is a lot more important.
Where is ambidextrous operation important? When working corners and while shooting on the move.
When I approach a doorway with a long gun, I want to expose as little of myself as possible, regardless which side I approach from. If the door opening is to my left, even being a mainly right-handed shooter, I need to have the ability to use the rifle from my left shoulder, so that only a small portion of me is visible as I progress forward. I also need the ability to cycle the rifle fast and decisively, regardless of the shoulder I'm running it in.
In our Gunfighting series of classes we introduce our students to movement to avoid incoming fire. We are sure not the only ones who have figured out that fast lateral movement works to our advantage. In case I have a moving target and the first round misses, I need the ability to get another follow-up round downrange fast and accurately! The lever action gun handles very naturally and allows for smooth, swift operation from either shoulder.

Shooting the rifle on the move could fill an article in in itself. I want to keep it brief: a shooter should always have the rifle seated in the shoulder of the direction that he is moving to. In other words, if I move to the right, I use the rifle in my right shoulder, if I move to the left, I use it in my left shoulder. This way, I can maintain my aim towards the target without winding my body up. A natural posture will result in less resistance from the body and in more accurate shots.


The dreaded Political Correctness

Last Point: We live –unfortunately- in a world where many people have swapped common sense for political correctness. A modern-day fighting rifle is not politically correct. In the contrary: some people inadvertently associate the AR-15 with our military and a no-no for civilians. They will also associate the AK-47 with terrorism. They do not see the benefit of a robust and reliable weapon that has long since served as a civilian defense rifle, around the world as well as here in the US. They see the image of Osama bin Laden and his thugs training with the AK-47 to take their Jihad to the US.
The lever gun on the other hand has been an icon in many western movies, enabling the good guys to prevail. Score one for political correctness. This may not be a huge issue in many areas of the US, but living in CA, believe me, it is an argument that bears quite a bit of weight.


First and foremost, it is a good choice for overly restrictive states such as California and for others where a “black rifle” is problematic. As many restrictions as we have on firearms, lever action guns are not affected by them, unless someone wanted a version chambered in .50 BMG – but that is rather unlikely.


For those of us shooting revolvers, the lever gun can be a nice extension of the handgun. As Gabe discussed in his article about pistol caliber carbines: they have a niche in the close range area and for smaller statured / recoil sensitive shooters.

In larger chamberings they have a place as a very basic, low-profile CDR (Civilian Defense Rifle). All it takes is the rifle itself, a dump pouch for the ammunition and a carrier that holds rounds alongside the barrel such as the Minuteman ammo cuffs for fast single-round top-off’s. A lever-action requires less support gear than an autoloading fighting rifle since it does not require exchangeable magazines.
http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b014e87596084970d-pi

The only other enhancement I would suggest is a red-dot such as an Aimpoint H-1 to improve quick target acquisition.

To close things – I bought a Winchester 94 chambered in .357 about ten years ago to complement our revolvers. It has accompanied me on a couple of road trips as backup, way before I got my first Saiga and also way before I started working with the close range gunfighting material.
I always enjoyed shooting it, mainly as a larger plinker, but I did not fully appreciate its potential until I started looking into the lever gun as a bug-out, get off the X rifle. Now that I have worked with it quite a bit, I am sure that this weapon stays in the family arsenal!

Uli Gebhard
Suarez International Staff Instructor
www.gebhardsolutions.com

Scratch705
04-08-2011, 10:42 PM
good write up. makes me think about lever guns as another gun to pickup on my list.

G-Solutions
04-08-2011, 10:57 PM
Thank you for your feedback - I think what I appreciate the most about the levergun is that it handles almost as fast as my Saiga when I shoot on the move. I like the Winchester 94 that I currently have, but I would really like to complement it with a Marlin - they just run smoother!

Scratch705
04-08-2011, 11:00 PM
if i may add, what about differences in breakdown? or are they all the same in terms of complexity? since someone like me has never seen much less touch a levergun, this info can be useful in choosing the right one or at least the first one.

ArmedDefense
04-08-2011, 11:08 PM
Very interesting and good read. :thumbsup:

dieselpower
04-08-2011, 11:12 PM
outstanding write up. Can't argue with much of the logic. The minor things I can argue are not worth the talking points. Its more philosophy of combat than fact that I would be citing. There is no reason to argue with your logic.

Very good right up indeed.

G-Solutions
04-08-2011, 11:12 PM
Thank you guys for your kind words.

if i may add, what about differences in breakdown? or are they all the same in terms of complexity? since someone like me has never seen much less touch a levergun, this info can be useful in choosing the right one or at least the first one.

I only worked on the Winchester thus far (replaced the lift lever) and for someone mechanically inclined, it is not too hard to undo a couple of screws and keep the parts in the correct order ;).

Temujin
04-08-2011, 11:18 PM
Very nice article, G-S.

Am hoping that our friends in Las Vegas will finish their work on optimizing my Marlin in time for your Rifle Gunfighting segment of the Combative Skills Week during the end of this month.

Seeing as how this is the PRK, my 336 is going to be my primary Go-To-Rifle. Definitely, looking forward to getting in some quality trigger time with it.

See you in Sloughhouse in a few weeks.

G-Solutions
04-08-2011, 11:22 PM
Very nice article, G-S.

Am hoping that our friends in Las Vegas will finish their work on optimizing my Marlin in time for your Rifle Gunfighting segment of the Combative Skills Week during the end of this month.

Seeing as how this is the PRK, my 336 is going to be my primary Go-To-Rifle. Definitely, looking forward to getting in some quality trigger time with it.

See you in Sloughhouse in a few weeks.

I'm looking forward to it! The rifle course looks like it will be a quite unique mix of weapons :D.

DannyInSoCal
04-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Great write-up with lots of info - I've been considering a .45ACP lever action since that's what I prefer for sidearms and have plenty of ammo - Any advice...?

justin15w
04-08-2011, 11:53 PM
Awesome post. I was enthralled.

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 12:03 AM
Great write-up with lots of info - I've been considering a .45ACP lever action since that's what I prefer for sidearms and have plenty of ammo - Any advice...?

Sorry, I have not yet found a levergun that is chambered in a any of the modern pistol calibers. That would be a very enticing combination....

Dreaded Claymore
04-09-2011, 12:11 AM
Whoa! Fantastic writeup. :thumbsup:

Sorry, I have not yet found a levergun that is chambered in a any of the modern pistol calibers. That would be a very enticing combination....

Do lever action rifles require a rimmed cartridge?

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 12:22 AM
Whoa! Fantastic writeup. :thumbsup:



Do lever action rifles require a rimmed cartridge?

Thank you for your kind words.

Lever actions do not require a rimmed cartridge. However, since they started out in a time when most cartridges had rims, that is still the standard for the vast majority of rifles build today.
In most cases where lever actions are chambered in rimless calibers, the rounds are fed from a box magazine. Good example here is the Browning BLR .308 - which is also available in a takedown version....

john.t.singh
04-09-2011, 12:45 AM
I heard field stripping lever actions is a pain. If your in the field how do you clean it? Doesn't break apart easy like some modern rifles...

mag360
04-09-2011, 1:06 AM
hmm. I had never thought about this. Thanks for introducing me to the combat lever action.

metalliman545
04-09-2011, 5:01 AM
Sorry... There's a reason why semi autos dominated the battle field. You can only fire round or flat tipped bullets out of a lever action. I can fire 10 shots, reload, and fire 10 more (and hit the target) with my ak's, ar's, m1 garand.

metalliman545
04-09-2011, 5:01 AM
Before you can even begin to reload your rifle

jshoebot
04-09-2011, 6:09 AM
Thanks for the great write-up. I've been considering picking up a lever-action as my trunk/bugout gun.. And I think you're write-up pushed me over the edge! :thumbsup:

Paul_R
04-09-2011, 6:49 AM
Sorry... There's a reason why semi autos dominated the battle field. You can only fire round or flat tipped bullets out of a lever action. I can fire 10 shots, reload, and fire 10 more (and hit the target) with my ak's, ar's, m1 garand.

Thank goodness you arrived in time to crap on the thread and point out the obvious.....:rolleyes:




To the OP, great write up. Have you tried a large ring lever? Makes a world of difference for me on my Marlin 1895. Wouldn't have a lever without one.

Dion
04-09-2011, 7:01 AM
Great article! Sometimes I feel like this Rifles section of CG is very AR specific, and don't really visit it much because of that. I understand the appeal, but I'm not that interested in AR's and more into old semi autos, bolt and lever actions. Write ups like this may open up some minds!

That being said, I am looking to buy a lever action this year, even before you posted this for the exact reasons you stated. Now you've really got me hooked!

cantcme
04-09-2011, 7:08 AM
I know they are a different gun but browning makes lever guns in 308.

Would someone please make a Ca. legal 10mm carbine? I don't care if it's lever or semi.

FiveSeven
04-09-2011, 7:19 AM
Thank goodness you arrived in time to crap on the thread and point out the obvious.....:rolleyes:




To the OP, great write up. Have you tried a large ring lever? Makes a world of difference for me on my Marlin 1895. Wouldn't have a lever without one.


It is what it is and that is the truth.
Even in this restrictive state, there are many semi auto rifles to chose from that will leave any lever in the dust.
This should not be the point of this post. It should be "I like lever action rifles" or something to that......Not LA as alternative to Semi-Action rifles as they are poorer alternatives anyway you cut it.

Dion
04-09-2011, 7:35 AM
It is what it is and that is the truth.
Even in this restrictive state, there are many semi auto rifles to chose from that will leave any lever in the dust.
This should not be the point of this post. It should be "I like lever action rifles" or something to that......Not LA as alternative to Semi-Action rifles as they are poorer alternatives anyway you cut it.
The OP is not saying the lever action is superior - he's saying it's an alternative.

I have a couple of Mosins and a .303 Enfield, but I'd choose my (soon to be) SKS and my M1 Carbine over those two any day.

The old lever actions I've seen are going for around $400. That's a great price for something reliable and pretty quick if you train with it.

I have a single shot 12g that, after one day of shooting, became pretty quick with. Not as fast as a semi, but good for what it is.

CmpsdNoMore
04-09-2011, 7:36 AM
Great article! Sometimes I feel like this Rifles section of CG is very AR specific, and don't really visit it much because of that.

Same here, I usually check maybe once a week and stick with the first page to see what's popular.

I have a very simplistic view on my firearms. I live on a very limited budget, so I decided to sell some rifles that weren't practical to me. I researched and thought long on what would be practical for my location and living situation.

I finally narrowed it down to:

1. A Shotgun. 12 gauge, Mossberg 500 with 28" barrel for birds and slugs and an 18.5" barrel for protection. You can pretty much do it all with this.

2. A revolver. Easy to clean, simple to use, .357 when power is needed and .38 for training and small animals.

3. A Lever-action rifle. Once again, easy to clean (no dirty gas system) and simple to use. Would probably get one in .357 to be able to be able to use the same ammo as revolver.

While semi-auto, magazine fed rifles are great for battle rifles, I'm guessing I'll never need to lay down that much firepower. I've used a .44 mag lever gun to hunt with in the past and it was great for hiking with, barely noticed it there. I do wish there were more pump-action, tube fed rifles available however, because they have an advantage over the lever-action in that you don't have to lose the grip on your trigger hand when cycling the action.

trashman
04-09-2011, 7:44 AM
Nice article, G-S. I think that leverguns based on the Marlin 1894 design are highly underrated as self-defense weapons: simplicity of design, ease and simplicity of function, and outstanding handling characteristics.

Plus, the ability to have pistol calibers (.38, .357, .44, .45Colt) makes a lot of sense, particularly in a setting where you might have a sidearm of the same caliber nearby. (and I don't mean an AR or AK pistol, haha).

--Neill

FiveSeven
04-09-2011, 7:44 AM
The OP is not saying the lever action is superior - he's saying it's an alternative.

I have a couple of Mosins and a .303 Enfield, but I'd choose my (soon to be) SKS and my M1 Carbine over those two any day.

The old lever actions I've seen are going for around $400. That's a great price for something reliable and pretty quick if you train with it.

Sorry.... I do not agree. Alternative only when it's the only thing you got than yes. If you have none then good semi is cheaper than lever action, SKS is one example.
Also to add: I do not care to score points with political correctness associated with what rifle I own/shoot with anyone in the public. If someone is scared because I own AK than it's their problem not mine. I won't go out of my way to please anyone when it comes to guns I chose to own.

bruce_ventura
04-09-2011, 7:44 AM
Interesting post. The author didn't mention box magazine fed lever actions (Browning BLR). That option allows a much broader range of calibers and bullets. Some might prefer that arrangement to handling loose ammo during a gunfight.

I would also like to see a comparison between lever action and pump action from someone who's trained with both for self defense.

trashman
04-09-2011, 7:50 AM
Sorry.... I do not agree. Alternative only when it's the only thing you got than yes. If you have none then good semi is cheaper than lever action, SKS is one example.
Also to add: I do not care to score points with political correctness associated with what rifle I own/shoot with anyone in the public. If someone is scared because I own AK than it's their problem not mine.

Dude...with all the sour grapes flying around the room here you'd think the lever action was a serious contender for dethroning the AR as the utility rifle of choice. It's not. Ease up a little guys!

--Neill

tgriffin
04-09-2011, 7:52 AM
While I like the concept, there are alternatives out the to both the lever action AND the autoloader rifle that are less of a compromise: the Remington 7615. Its a pump action, accepts AR15 mags, and comes in a variety of stock options. Personally, I have one in pistol grip/adjustable stock, and a red dot lives up top side. 30 + 1 on tap with rapid reloads and a rate of fire almost equal to semiauto and faster than lever. Almost everyone is familiar with a pump shotgun, versus retraining for lever. That alone gives it an advantage in my opinion.

trashman
04-09-2011, 7:53 AM
This should not be the point of this post. It should be "I like lever action rifles" or something to that......Not LA as alternative to Semi-Action rifles as they are poorer alternatives anyway you cut it.

Seriously dude, lighten up.

--Neill

FiveSeven
04-09-2011, 7:54 AM
Dude...with all the sour grapes flying around the room here you'd think the lever action was a serious contender for dethroning the AR as the utility rifle of choice. It's not. Ease up a little guys!

--Neill

Not a big fan of AR's big guy.

trashman
04-09-2011, 7:55 AM
Not a big fan of AR's big guy.

My mistake. PLEASE go start a different thread and tell us all about it :43:

--Neill

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 8:10 AM
The OP is not saying the lever action is superior - he's saying it's an alternative.

[...].

And that is precisely the point. AK's and AR's will outperform a levergun, no doubt about it.
However, I have a number of students who will keep a levergun as a trunk gun instead of a semi-auto because they see that this is legally defensible and since the fighting potential of a Marlin 336 or similar in a short engagement is not much less than a semi-auto - which they could not log around with loaded and accessible mags.

FiveSeven
04-09-2011, 8:45 AM
And that is precisely the point. AK's and AR's will outperform a levergun, no doubt about it.
However, I have a number of students who will keep a levergun as a trunk gun instead of a semi-auto because they see that this is legally defensible and since the fighting potential of a Marlin 336 or similar in a short engagement is not much less than a semi-auto - which they could not log around with loaded and accessible mags.

I'm not trying to downgrade anything what you teach or believe.
I understand you put a lot of effort into this write up and you did a great job.
I simply disagree with you about "combat lever action" rifles as being alternatives to military semi autos such as M1 Garand, M1 carbine, SKS etc. As I pointed out earlier if one has excess only to LA rifle than it's VERY useful info and training is very important. If however one was to chose a defensive rifle then going lever action route is shortchanging yourself.

I owned lever action (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Guns/Image1yt.jpg) rifles at one point (not anymore), so I don't have dislike toward them, I think they are better hunting rifles more so than self defense ones, and when it come to self defense with a rifle. One would face just as much scrutiny with LA as with SA, especially in this state + if you defend yourself with a rifle I'm thinking your opponent has a rifle as well? If yes, then I bet he (or they) won't be using LA.

Dreaded Claymore
04-09-2011, 8:48 AM
Durn burn it...someone just wanted to talk about a good way to use a certain type of rifle, you fellows don't have to get scared. Don't worry, the AR-15 isn't going anywhere!

Paul_R
04-09-2011, 8:55 AM
It is what it is and that is the truth.
Even in this restrictive state, there are many semi auto rifles to chose from that will leave any lever in the dust.
This should not be the point of this post. It should be "I like lever action rifles" or something to that......Not LA as alternative to Semi-Action rifles as they are poorer alternatives anyway you cut it.

Did you figure that out all by yourself or did the previous thread crapper clue you? And do you honestly believe nobody else has figured out the advantages of semi auto's?

I'm sure I'm not the only one trying to enjoy this thread that owns several semi autos so I'm sure I speak for most when I say nobody really cares about your semi autos or your thread crapping opinions. So run along now killer.....:rolleyes:

FiveSeven
04-09-2011, 9:04 AM
^

So......If someone, anyone post anything on the forums everyone should agree and say nothing but praises?:rolleyes:
This is a forum and everyone/anyone can write their "opinions" be it good, bad or neutral until they break the forum rules. I have not called OP names or publicly degrade him have I ?

In case your not aware this is all about opinions, otherwise you would not be wasting others time here as well if you didn't care about mines.
Replying is caring, now you know.

not-fishing
04-09-2011, 9:06 AM
Sorry... There's a reason why semi autos dominated the battle field. You can only fire round or flat tipped bullets out of a lever action. I can fire 10 shots, reload, and fire 10 more (and hit the target) with my ak's, ar's, m1 garand.

I own and have shot 1,000's of rounds in my AR and Garands in Competition.

For a woods guns my Marlin '95 or S & W #29 are hard to beat in 44 mag. Shots are 50 yds or less on running deer & hogs.

It all depends on the use.

I know the soldiers in Iraq wanted something more like a 44 mag for house clearing.

As a defense weapon if you use an AR or especially an AK on someone, you will find out how the Prosecuting Attorney and juries feel about it don't expect them to be sympathetic.

But then I favor S & W 686 SSR in .357 for self defense.

375Ranger
04-09-2011, 9:08 AM
Hi Gabe, read your article and have to agree. I have an AR platform rifle and like it. But from reading your philosophy on lever guns somewhere else about a year ago, made me think. If/When SHTF, I'm looking at reliability, ease of portability, and the lever (I have a Marlin 336) seems to be a viable option. Michael Bane did a Tactical lever segment on Shooting Gallery, it was awesome. Anyways, keep up the good work, heard good things about your training courses.

Full Clip
04-09-2011, 9:14 AM
Sorry... There's a reason why semi autos dominated the battle field. You can only fire round or flat tipped bullets out of a lever action. I can fire 10 shots, reload, and fire 10 more (and hit the target) with my ak's, ar's, m1 garand.

Uh, no.
Unless you're using those rare 10-round Enbloc clips. ;)
Certainly another advantage to the lever gun is that you can easily top off the tube magazine without taking weapon out of action. You can't top off an M1 Garand at all.

CSACANNONEER
04-09-2011, 9:28 AM
Sorry... There's a reason why semi autos dominated the battle field. You can only fire round or flat tipped bullets out of a lever action. I can fire 10 shots, reload, and fire 10 more (and hit the target) with my ak's, ar's, m1 garand.


You don't have a clue about lever action rifles. There are several models which utilize rotary or boxx magazines and will shoot any bullet. Also, for the tube fed guns, there are "pointy" bullets on the market which are safe to use. I'm pretty sure that you can not accurately fire your semis as fast as many cowboy action shooters can. I even bet that there are some 12 year old girls, that shoot cowboy action, who could out shoot you with their lever guns.

Did you know that it's extremely simple to convert a lever action into a FA? Back in the late 70's or early 80's, I remember seeing an article about it in a American Rifleman. The patent was from the late 1800's. So, obviously, in the right hands, lever guns can cycle just as fast as semis can.


^

So......If someone, anyone post anything on the forums everyone should agree and say nothing but praises?:rolleyes:
This is a forum and everyone/anyone can write their "opinions" be it good, bad or neutral until they break the forum rules. I have not called OP names or publicly degrade him have I ?

In case your not aware this is all about opinions, otherwise you would not be wasting others time here as well if you didn't care about mines.
Replying is caring, now you know.

Yea, you're actually right about this but, your opinion of lever guns being used for SD is only your opinion. Some people here do not agree with your opinion and don't want to read it. That's their problem. But, you also need to realize that lever guns have long been used for SD, hunting and military weapons. Semis are issued now because, they are easier for the masses to become proficient with and take less training to become proficient. Similar to revolvers, I think lever guns are more reliable than semis and easier for the poorly trained or the highly trained to use. I'm guessing that most of the members here fall somewhere inbetween and therefore, would opt for a semi.

RangemasterP226
04-09-2011, 9:35 AM
1st class review! Thanks.

thrillhouse700
04-09-2011, 9:46 AM
Good write up, there will always be whiners.

cantcme
04-09-2011, 10:19 AM
All the mentioned guns have advantages. A 44 mag lever holds more rounds than a M1 Garand and can also be topped off. It's lighter, shorter and quicker handling. Look at bullet diameter/speed at a 44mag from a carbine. There may be better rifles for SD but to say a Marlin 1894 isn't one of the good choices for urban SD is probably not a well thought out statement.

Ripon83
04-09-2011, 10:22 AM
Nicely written. I tend to discount the political aspect. If our ARs are taken away some how the lever guns will be easy to take. That said I love my new Rossi with 24 inch barrel in 357....it's working great with 38 sp and 357.

Does anyone know is there a lever gun in 45 acp?

Snapping Twig
04-09-2011, 10:47 AM
Great write-up!

As a fan of the late Col. Cooper, I made this for myself last year.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/SnappingTwig1/P9090005.jpg

45-70 with a scout set-up and ghost ring sights. The scope is on a quick release and is fully re zeroed when removed/replaced.

I plan on hunting with it, but the same attributes that make it a good brush gun makes it an excellent SD choice.

Add to that the caliber and IMO, it's the right call.


FWIW, I cast and reload, so ammo cost is minimal.

Edited to add:

For those that aren't aware, lever guns are as accurate as modern bolt guns. With proper ammo, 1" groups at 100 yards are the norm.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
04-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Nice article! If memory serves me correctly, Col. Cooper once advocated lever-action rifles for law enforcement use. You're in good company.

One suggestion, if I may, concerning reloading techniques: Consider a reloading mindset more like the combat shotgun than a rifle; i.e., shoot one, load one; shoot two, load two and so forth, continually topping off the magazine whenever possible. You may have addressed that but if so, I missed it.

GILMORE619
04-09-2011, 11:26 AM
I always wanted and old lever action... It would sure stick out like a sore thumb in my collection though :)

Realist2011
04-09-2011, 12:04 PM
Other than the red dot do you put any other sights on your levers or just leave the standard buck horn sights? Have you considered the ghost rings sights? They work very well and for short distances are very fast.

Paul_R
04-09-2011, 12:10 PM
Other than the red dot do you put any other sights on your levers or just leave the standard buck horn sights? Have you considered the ghost rings sights? They work very well and for short distances are very fast.

I hate those buckhorn sights and they disappeared from my 1895G almost immediately. I use ghost rings from XS and love 'em. They're very close to battle sights on an M1 and very accurate out to about 200 yards.

Canucky
04-09-2011, 12:18 PM
Nice right up. Thanks for the contribution.
For the poster whom mentioned lever action bullets come in only round or flat heads?
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/

zfields
04-09-2011, 12:41 PM
nice read


the aimpoint though makes me giggle a lil bit.

trashman
04-09-2011, 12:55 PM
45-70 with a scout set-up and ghost ring sights. The scope is on a quick release and is fully re zeroed when removed/replaced.


I am planning on building the exact same setup -- same gun, scope, everything. It's an awesome combination and a fun gun too...

--Neill

jeff762
04-09-2011, 12:59 PM
great write up with some very good ideas/technics. one must keep in mind that in its day the lever action was the assault rifle of its time.

navraster
04-09-2011, 1:21 PM
Great write up! Thanks for sharing. I love leverguns.

drunktank
04-09-2011, 1:49 PM
Excellent write up. Thanks for taking the time to share.

green grunt
04-09-2011, 2:11 PM
Great reading ! and well put......I do enjoy shooting our LA's , the Better Half...finds then to be easy to use and not so tactical looking ;)

2 - 22lr , Winchester and a Golden Boy
1- 30-30 , Marlin Tex.
1- 45 Colt Carbine , Winchester
1 - 357/38 Marlin

I belive in a good Lever Action....and yes ...I do own a few Semi-Autos also..

97F1504RAD
04-09-2011, 3:21 PM
Great write up.

Could you post the stats on your sling setup I really like the way you have that setup. Also complete details on your redot and mounting method.

Quiet
04-09-2011, 3:35 PM
Good write up.

One thing I like about lever-action firearms with tubular magazines, they are exempt from the large capacity magazine laws.

mikefromsac
04-09-2011, 4:21 PM
Great write up! I love my AR, but I also love my Marlin 1894 carbine in .357.

Shooting a LG outside of a rifle range in CA is much more accepted and less chance of confiscation versus an AR. I'll keep the AR ready for home defense, but the LG can go almost anywhere with not much notice. I've had people smile and ask questions when they see them. With my AR in the woods, people just seem annoyed or worried.

Although I can't cycle rounds through it as fast as my AR, it's pretty close and I can top off while changing positions. If you're using a post-ban CA legal AR, changing magazines with a bullet-button after every ten shots takes almost as long at keeping a LG topped off during a brief intermission of rounds. I'm not saying they're better, but they have their place.

I like all guns, not just ARs. Thanks again.

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 4:28 PM
Great write up.

Could you post the stats on your sling setup I really like the way you have that setup. Also complete details on your redot and mounting method.

Thank you for your feedback.

Here's a newer model of the sling:
http://www.gebhardsolutions.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/gs_univ_sling.270213233_std.JPG

It's a very simple setup with 1.5" wide webbing, quick-adjust buckle and paracord attachments instead of classic sling swivels. The paracord helps keeping the sling very quiet. I have the older model with only 1" wide webbing on my rifle.

More info on the sling here (http://www.gebhardsolutions.com/gear).

The Red Dot is a Bushnell TRS-25 (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Bushnell174-Trophy-TRS-25-Red-Dot-Sight/748791.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dtrs-25%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=trs-25&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products)mounted on an XS sight systems Lever scout mount (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Express-Sight-Systems-Lever-Scout-Mount/707286.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3DXS%2BLever%2Bscout%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WT z_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=XS+Lever+scout&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products).

Last item I added is a Minutemangear Forearm ammo cuff (http://www.minutemangear.com/Cuffs4.html).

Here's a closeup of the current setup in action.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p129/minders1/mike%20gun%20stuff/IMG_8233-1.jpg

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 4:41 PM
Hi Gabe, read your article and have to agree. I have an AR platform rifle and like it. But from reading your philosophy on lever guns somewhere else about a year ago, made me think. If/When SHTF, I'm looking at reliability, ease of portability, and the lever (I have a Marlin 336) seems to be a viable option. [...]

Thank you - but this is not Gabe... my name is Uli Gebhard. I am one of Gabe's Staff Instructors. Gabe's previous write-ups inspired the work that led up to this article.

Mofo-Kang
04-09-2011, 4:44 PM
I simply disagree with you about "combat lever action" rifles as being alternatives to military semi autos such as M1 Garand, M1 carbine, SKS etc. As I pointed out earlier if one has excess only to LA rifle than it's VERY useful info and training is very important. If however one was to chose a defensive rifle then going lever action route is shortchanging yourself.

I'm not sure you understand what the term "alternative" means. It may be an inferior alternative in several ways, but that doesn't make it a non-alternative. If two choices have to be equal in every way to be alternatives, then they're not really choices at all--choosing either one gets you the same thing.

Which Way Out
04-09-2011, 4:56 PM
Well I had though of selling my 35 Remington Lever a few different times. But its to good to let go. Nice change to shoot it after a few 100 rds of 5.56. You pull the trigger on a 35 and you know it. As a matter of fact I've grown to like more than ever.
OP thanks for your write up and the education.

97F1504RAD
04-09-2011, 5:24 PM
Thank you for your feedback.

Here's a newer model of the sling:
http://www.gebhardsolutions.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/gs_univ_sling.270213233_std.JPG

It's a very simple setup with 1.5" wide webbing, quick-adjust buckle and paracord attachments instead of classic sling swivels. The paracord helps keeping the sling very quiet. I have the older model with only 1" wide webbing on my rifle.

More info on the sling here (http://www.gebhardsolutions.com/gear).

The Red Dot is a Bushnell TRS-25 (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Bushnell174-Trophy-TRS-25-Red-Dot-Sight/748791.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dtrs-25%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=trs-25&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products)mounted on an XS sight systems Lever scout mount (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Express-Sight-Systems-Lever-Scout-Mount/707286.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3DXS%2BLever%2Bscout%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WT z_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=XS+Lever+scout&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products).

Last item I added is a Minutemangear Forearm ammo cuff (http://www.minutemangear.com/Cuffs4.html).

Here's a closeup of the current setup in action.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p129/minders1/mike%20gun%20stuff/IMG_8233-1.jpg

Thank You

jeffsenpai
04-09-2011, 6:04 PM
Very good post G-Solutions, I enjoyed reading it :)

Army
04-09-2011, 6:50 PM
^

So......If someone, anyone post anything on the forums everyone should agree and say nothing but praises?:rolleyes:
This is a forum and everyone/anyone can write their "opinions" be it good, bad or neutral until they break the forum rules. I have not called OP names or publicly degrade him have I ?

In case your not aware this is all about opinions, otherwise you would not be wasting others time here as well if you didn't care about mines.
Replying is caring, now you know.
Many can write, but not all read them thoroughly:

Living in one of the most restrictive states in the US one is sometimes forced to get very creative to find effective defensive tools.
For those who are not familiar with California's laws, centerfire autoloader rifles are highly restricted to the point where many police officers will err on the side of caution and take a rifle in for safe keeping if they are not sure whether or not it fall under California Assault Weapons Law.

There, see? He had no intention of making an AR/AK Vs Cowboy gun thread. His obvious intention was to help you evaluate the use of the lever gun as a defensive tool.....like it has been since the old Volcanic of pre-Civil War days. He even points out the advantages of magazine rifles.

Would I grab my '94 on the way out the door in a SHTF situation? Nope. But I would not leave it behind if I have time to gear up.

Although the 7.62x39 may "equal" the .30-30 with like weight bullets. The .30-30 will easily outperform the Soviet when big heavy bullets are needed.

See, most of us got it right away.....

mike_the_wino
04-09-2011, 6:59 PM
F-----CK!!!! G-Solutions you are NOT helping. I have thus far been able to avoid buying a .44 magnum pistol. I typically only buy a gun in a new round if I can find a companion firearm in the same caliber and now I have one.

Thanks. Thanks alot. My bank account curses you.

Seriously though, nice right up on oft overlooked platform.

elSquid
04-09-2011, 7:08 PM
There are a lot of good points in favor of a levergun, but it should also be pointed out that ARs/AKs/SKSs aren't the only choice in a CA legal semi: a wood stocked Mini14 ( 5.56, 7.62x39, or 6.8SPC ) is a reasonable PC alternative as well.

That said, leverguns are fun, and everyone needs at least one. ;)

Even the AR guys like this one...

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh300/enis75/Krinkov004.jpg

( Before anyone asks: not mine. This is "Pugsli" from arfcom. )

-- Michael

smle-man
04-09-2011, 7:25 PM
An issue that I've encountered with lever guns and loading gates; stuffing a round all the way in so it stays, especially under pressure takes a lot of practice. Shooters with big fingers may particuarly have a problem getting the cartridges seated into the tube and if the fingers are cold, wet, or wearing gloves a tactical reload may end up with an equal number of rounds on the ground as in the tube. I've been shooting levers since 1971 so I'm not a newbie to this type of firearm and I'm not putting them down. I have three right now and they have a place in my arms room. But if I knew I was going in harm's way I'd pick a more modern arm if possible
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P1210046.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P1170295.jpg

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 7:58 PM
There are a lot of good points in favor of a levergun, but it should also be pointed out that ARs/AKs/SKSs aren't the only choice in a CA legal semi: a wood stocked Mini14 ( 5.56, 7.62x39, or 6.8SPC ) is a reasonable PC alternative as well.

That said, leverguns are fun, and everyone needs at least one. ;)

Even the AR guys like this one...

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh300/enis75/Krinkov004.jpg

( Before anyone asks: not mine. This is "Pugsli" from arfcom. )

-- Michael
That is a nice setup - I've always had a preference for polymer stocks. I have a hunch that a 336 in this layout just bumped its way into the top five on my project list ;)

Spirit 1
04-09-2011, 8:02 PM
Excellent article, thanks!

All this time I knew, somewhere in the back of my mind, Steve McQueen & Chuck Connors had it right...

FiveSeven
04-09-2011, 8:03 PM
Many can write, but not all read them thoroughly:



There, see? He had no intention of making an AR/AK Vs Cowboy gun thread. His obvious intention was to help you evaluate the use of the lever gun as a defensive tool.....like it has been since the old Volcanic of pre-Civil War days. He even points out the advantages of magazine rifles.

Would I grab my '94 on the way out the door in a SHTF situation? Nope. But I would not leave it behind if I have time to gear up.

Although the 7.62x39 may "equal" the .30-30 with like weight bullets. The .30-30 will easily outperform the Soviet when big heavy bullets are needed.



Yes I've read it "thoroughly" but does not mean I agree.

See, most of us got it right away.....

I don't see it that way whatsoever. There are MANY different semi auto rifles to chose from that are not AK''s and AR's.

I have a problem with liming myself because of public perceptions toward what public "perceives" as "evil" rifles. To me that is a defeatism mentality and in a way it's making a statement that reflect our already messed up gun laws in this state. We are our own enemy when we agree with deamonization of certain guns.
At the end, you can fight with what you know and having experience/practice with more affective tool makes one more efficient in that specific field.
I agree to disagree and will leave it at that.

BTW, when big and heavy bullet are needed you better have something better than 30-30 as a "step up" from Soviet 7.62x39mm.

elSquid
04-09-2011, 8:21 PM
That is a nice setup - I've always had a preference for polymer stocks. I have a hunch that a 336 in this layout just bumped its way into the top five on my project list ;)

https://sites.google.com/site/sqidbait/BCTrip118-large.jpg

You aren't the only one...

:D

( Ramline stock, XS sight, XS mounts )

-- Michael

G-Solutions
04-09-2011, 8:53 PM
Michael - best of success for your upgrade program. What sight are you planning to put on that system.

FiveSeven,

I'm not here to discuss politics. It can be an aspect (it sure is for me) but what I'm here for is to talk guns. So seems to be the vast majority of the people responding to this thread.

I do not see choosing my weapon based on the boundary conditions of this state as defeat or weakness - if you choose to see it that way, that's your opinion and you have made your point clear that you're set on that. I could not care less.

crazy
04-09-2011, 8:54 PM
Excellent write up. Anyone that thinks a LA is slow and cumbersome has never been to a cowboy shoot. Those guys (and gals) shoot a LA like a semi auto.

mike_the_wino
04-09-2011, 9:35 PM
Like it, hate it...really matters not, I gots mine and will probably get at least one more.

Knight
04-09-2011, 9:58 PM
Great write-up. We need more topics like this!

IntoForever
04-09-2011, 10:06 PM
OP, awesome write up! I have other rifles and as far as feel, I like my Winchester LA the best.

pyromensch
04-09-2011, 10:48 PM
this got me thinking, i have a m94 in 30-30, and a marlin 1895 in 45-70. my brother has a m94 in 44mag. but if i were to chose, a choice "one" lever action as a combat weapon, it would be either a marlin, or winchester in 357 mag. it has the advantage of shooting a 38 spl, and tube capacity increases with the shorter round. both the 357 and the 38 spl are very available. the 357, can go 150yds easily.
if i repeated anything already mentioned, my apologies, it is getting late, and i jumped ahead, to post.
good night

jdberger
04-09-2011, 10:59 PM
Sorry, I have not yet found a levergun that is chambered in a any of the modern pistol calibers. That would be a very enticing combination....

Winchester made a 92 in .45ACP a while back. Apparently they were marketed to the various South American police forces. I've only seen one for sale. It had a 16" barrel and a saddle ring. IIRC it was about $1700ish.

I'd talked with a couple of 'smiths about making a small run of them - based on the Puma. Most thought that it would be prohibitively expensive.

Here's a thread discussing it from way back in 2005. (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-128530.html)

If I could find one now, I'd buy it in a second.

elSquid
04-10-2011, 1:22 AM
Michael - best of success for your upgrade program. What sight are you planning to put on that system.


I'll probably toss an Aimpoint R1 on it.

-- Michael

H2O MAN
04-10-2011, 5:17 AM
This is my .45-70 Combat Guide Gun with +2 mag tube extension and a few other upgrades.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/T56SHTF/guigegun001.jpg

metalliman545
04-10-2011, 5:53 AM
I just us an AR or WASR-10 with a kydex wrap around

lewdogg21
04-10-2011, 7:42 AM
I became fascinated with lever guns over a year ago and carried one last year for deer/bear hunting in .35 rem. I found that in the dense forest areas the light weight and ease of pointing and target acquisition made it ideal.

The OP's rifle with the rail and red dot is exactly what I would love to do with a .30-.30 that has been sitting in my safe. Thank you op!

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 8:32 AM
I just us an AR or WASR-10 with a kydex wrap around

So? Are they lever actions? If not, what is your point? The OP is not comparing semis vs levers. He is explaining the fact that a lever gun can be a useful rifle for SD purposes. Now, if you were comparing a pump action AK or AR to a lever action rifle or semi, it would be an interesting comparision and a topic for a new thread.

BTW, some lever guns will feed ammo that some semis won't. I'm specifically refering to my Savage 99 in .308 and my 1919. My M99 will feed just about ANY .308 or 7.62x51 surplus ammo. My 1919 will not feed most commercial .308 at all. So, which one would you prefer to use during a critical situation? Sure, the 1919 can shoot 250 rounds or more without having to reload but, if you have to aquire ammo for it along the way, you'll need to check the COAL before you bother linking it. That's just one example of tthat I can come up with to refute your claim that all lever guns are more ammo sensitive than semis.

BigBamBoo
04-10-2011, 8:43 AM
........

IntoForever
04-10-2011, 8:57 AM
And for those who think a lever gun can't be tac-ta-cool.......I give you this: http://www.grizzlycustom.com/custom_lever_action_rifle_brush_hawg.html

I am really thinking about sending my old 30-30 off to have them work it over.

Take care,Stan
At least it doesn't have a quad rail, laser, range finder, night vision scope and red dot piled on it. :D The only thing I put on my .30/30 is my hands.

crazy
04-10-2011, 12:50 PM
This is my .45-70 Combat Guide Gun with +2 mag tube extension and a few other upgrades.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/T56SHTF/guigegun001.jpg





Please tell me more about the mag extension.








.

thrillhouse700
04-10-2011, 12:55 PM
I have wanted a .45-70 for a long time now. Only problem is I don't reload so it would be too expensive.

Ripon83
04-10-2011, 1:00 PM
Wonder which SA country has a small gold mine in their gun rack? Hope they are taking care of them.

Winchester made a 92 in .45ACP a while back. Apparently they were marketed to the various South American police forces. I've only seen one for sale. It had a 16" barrel and a saddle ring. IIRC it was about $1700ish.

I'd talked with a couple of 'smiths about making a small run of them - based on the Puma. Most thought that it would be prohibitively expensive.

Here's a thread discussing it from way back in 2005. (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-128530.html)

If I could find one now, I'd buy it in a second.

themailman
04-10-2011, 1:06 PM
I just us an AR or WASR-10 with a kydex wrap around

Why are you still posting in here? Why cant you get the OP's point through your head?


OP, awesome write. The Lever gun is a viable alternative for many situations. I owned a Marlin 336 and I regret ever selling it. With the Hornady Leverevolution ammo, it was a really handy rifle.

97F1504RAD
04-10-2011, 1:07 PM
This is my .45-70 Combat Guide Gun with +2 mag tube extension and a few other upgrades.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/T56SHTF/guigegun001.jpg

What optic do you have on that rifle?

Lagduf
04-10-2011, 1:13 PM
I've been wanting a .357 lever action for some time now. This thread certainly isn't helping me not splurge on one :D

JeffM
04-10-2011, 1:29 PM
If it's all you have, a lever gun will work, but it's far from ideal.

The OP seems more like he's trying to sell a class by first selling the idea that it's cool to use a lever gun where a semi-auto is better suited.

I'll stick with modern and practical for fighting, and nostalgic for fun.

97F1504RAD
04-10-2011, 1:35 PM
If it's all you have, a lever gun will work, but it's far from ideal.

The OP seems more like he's trying to sell a class by first selling the idea that it's cool to use a lever gun where a semi-auto is better suited.

I'll stick with modern and practical for fighting, and nostalgic for fun.

Seems to me that he is showing an alternative to people that may not want an AR or AK and it is an option that will not attract tons of attention from LEO when out in public lands. Also for those that do not wish to carry all the paperwork around proving the firearm they own is legal.

llamatrnr
04-10-2011, 1:55 PM
How about some recommendations/reviews, please?

Thanks!

1911su16b870
04-10-2011, 2:05 PM
Thank you Uli for the excellent writeup on a combat lever gun.

Fight and train with what you have!

At my first carbine course, we had ARs, Mini14s, SU16 and leverguns. I ran an SU16 for the two weekend course without one malfunction and I have no problems with the SU16. Now with the Saiga, IMO think that may be the best combat option for us in CA. The Saiga in 223 with either Surefire magazines or a Magnolia mag well to accept AR magazines would be a great CA legal carbine.

After the course I ended up getting a mini14 and a 357 Marlin 1894c just to run those guns as some of the others in my class had.

jdg30
04-10-2011, 2:12 PM
Seems to me that he is showing an alternative to people that may not want an AR or AK and it is an option that will not attract tons of attention from LEO when out in public lands. Also for those that do not wish to carry all the paperwork around proving the firearm they own is legal.

That describes me. I've had interest in a lever action rifle for a while and didn't know there were mods you can do to it. I usually am into handguns but would like to get a nice rifle and I think a lever action would be great. I usually shoot in the desert and a lever action would be perfect to carry around without having to be concerned about the possible legality of my semiauto rifle.

I have interest in an AR type rifle and I own a Mini 14, but there's something about a multi-shot rifle that doesn't fling spent brass everywhere that I can appreciate. Thanks for the detailed review OP.

metalliman545
04-10-2011, 3:13 PM
So I guess sks's and mini 14s, m1a's would also attract too much attention right? What about saiga's in their import form? Even an m1 carbine? Like it was said, if its all you got then ok but you don't need to intentionally go out and buy a lever action for home defense/ shtf. Give me a semi auto and like I said it'll shoot circles around your lever action. More rounds down range for multiple targets none of that "pow! Crap! I missed! Let me cycle the action. Most of you( I'm going to assume) have never shot without some sort of ear pro let's see how confused and the shockyoull get when you get that ring in your ears and how many forget to recock their lever

C.W.M.V.
04-10-2011, 4:03 PM
Dude, some people don't like those types of firearms. Your telling me you've never met anyone who didn't dislike the whole EBR/Semi auto type rifles? Cause Ive met plenty. This is just showing that it can be made to be useful in these situations given the proper training.
Fact is that Id rather have a well trained rifleman with a Mosin Nagant in my squad than a newb with a super duper ninjafied m-4. Just like you say you'll shoot circles around this guy with your semi auto there is someone out there that will out shoot you with their lever gun. The weapon system is secondary to the proficiency of the shooter and neither you or I are the be all end all of shooters.

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 5:20 PM
So I guess sks's and mini 14s, m1a's would also attract too much attention right? What about saiga's in their import form? Even an m1 carbine? Like it was said, if its all you got then ok but you don't need to intentionally go out and buy a lever action for home defense/ shtf. Give me a semi auto and like I said it'll shoot circles around your lever action. More rounds down range for multiple targets none of that "pow! Crap! I missed! Let me cycle the action. Most of you( I'm going to assume) have never shot without some sort of ear pro let's see how confused and the shockyoull get when you get that ring in your ears and how many forget to recock their lever

You just don't get it. I own ever semi you've listed except minis (I just don't like them but, my dad has owned several) but, this thread is about lever guns used as SD weapons. Guess what, I'm willing to bet that there have been more SD shooting with lever action rifles inside of US borders than all semi autos combined. Of course, there is no way to prove that one way or the other. However, lever action guns have been carried for protection, military purposes and hunting since BEFORE the War of Northern Aggression. Semi autos became common AFTER WWII. While you may not want to use a lever gun, many people are very comfortable with them. Anyone who has ever hunted with one (that's a lot of people) has probably fired them without hearing protection and never had a problem cycling the action. Of course, your arguement about confusion and ears ringing would still be valid if shooting a semi auto and having it stove pipe, fail to feed or misfire. I guess you must think that those with semi autos can troble shoot problems while they are confused and their ears are ringing. All of your ideas about lever guns show your lack of knowledge about them and shooting in general.

This thread is about an alternative to semi autos for SD. Some people may not want to buy a new gun, learn a new platform, have to deal with another caliber/cartridge, etc. It is not a thread about semi autos for SD. If you want to start another thread about that, go ahead. No one is stopping you.

bizarrocolin
04-10-2011, 6:00 PM
how many forget to recock their lever

Cycling the action actually recocks the rifle for you...

G-Solutions
04-10-2011, 6:35 PM
[...]

The OP seems more like he's trying to sell a class by first selling the idea that it's cool to use a lever gun where a semi-auto is better suited.

Strange - I don't recall putting something into the article that indicates my preference for a levergun regardless of the circumstances. Our member crazy has a great "legal disclaimer" in his signature line - it comes to mind when I see your post.

I'll stick with modern and practical for fighting, and nostalgic for fun.

Good for you... enjoy!

G-Solutions
04-10-2011, 6:37 PM
[...]
This thread is about an alternative to semi autos for SD. Some people may not want to buy a new gun, learn a new platform, have to deal with another caliber/cartridge, etc. It is not a thread about semi autos for SD. If you want to start another thread about that, go ahead. No one is stopping you.

Thank you - that sums it up right to the point.

Uxi
04-10-2011, 6:41 PM
I'm thinking we need a modern version with polymer and carbon fibers and what not. Maybe a modern take on the bolt-action, too.

Paul_R
04-10-2011, 6:42 PM
Oh BTW G, I hadn't seen those forearm ammo cuffs till I saw this thread. Very cool must have item. Thanks!

Gryff
04-10-2011, 6:48 PM
I've always liked the concept of the Remington 7615 Patrol rifle if you feel the need to get away from a semi-auto. Pump action, but can take AR mags.

http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615d.jpg

I also like how you do not need to move your strong/trigger hand when chambering the next round.

CmpsdNoMore
04-10-2011, 7:03 PM
I've always liked the concept of the Remington 7615 Patrol rifle if you feel the need to get away from a semi-auto. Pump action, but can take AR mags.

It would be nice to get a pump that could use hi-caps (I'm not in CA) but in something a little more powerful.

elSquid
04-10-2011, 7:14 PM
It would be nice to get a pump that could use hi-caps (I'm not in CA) but in something a little more powerful.

Romanian PAR.

:whistling:

-- Michael

G-Solutions
04-10-2011, 7:42 PM
I've always liked the concept of the Remington 7615 Patrol rifle if you feel the need to get away from a semi-auto. Pump action, but can take AR mags.

http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615d.jpg

I also like how you do not need to move your strong/trigger hand when chambering the next round.

This is a rifle that would work well in this setting, they are a bit harder to work ambidextrous while on the move but this would definitely be another alternative.

themailman
04-10-2011, 7:51 PM
So I guess sks's and mini 14s, m1a's would also attract too much attention right? What about saiga's in their import form? Even an m1 carbine? Like it was said, if its all you got then ok but you don't need to intentionally go out and buy a lever action for home defense/ shtf. Give me a semi auto and like I said it'll shoot circles around your lever action. More rounds down range for multiple targets none of that "pow! Crap! I missed! Let me cycle the action. Most of you( I'm going to assume) have never shot without some sort of ear pro let's see how confused and the shockyoull get when you get that ring in your ears and how many forget to recock their lever

You continue to ignore every post on here and then argue with yourself. Ive never put anyone on my "ignore list" before, but you just started it.

cannon
04-10-2011, 8:20 PM
How about some recommendations/reviews, please?

Thanks!

As a reformed cowboy shooter...

Go with the Marlin for the side eject. Anyone who has ever shot a Garand, M1 Carbine or an M1A which all eject out of the top like a Winchester has gotten the hot brass surprise. Nothing like sizzling hot brass on your head or down your shirt to spice up range time. ;)

rojocorsa
04-10-2011, 8:27 PM
Good write up.


Tangentially, this is why a standard pump action shotgun with wooden furniture also has its place.

I like AKs, but I do see the value of Cowboy Assault Rifles.

pyromensch
04-10-2011, 8:27 PM
Please tell me more about the mag extension.








.

read my mind!

crazy
04-10-2011, 8:58 PM
http://www.homotron.net/images/homotron/258Troll_spray.jpg

Blah, blah, blah.......I need 6x30 round mags for a SD gun..........blah, blah, blah.............I'll run circles around you.........blah, blah, blah.........with my semi auto...............blah, blah, blah.........I don't get it...........blah, blah, blah........my mind closed shut tighter than a dolphin's butthole..............blah, blah, blah..........I want to give you my opinion over and over again........blah, blah, blah...........even though nobody cares.............blah, blah, blah...........I'm going to replace my mags with several 100 round drums.............blah, blah, blah...............because I might get confused when my gun goes bang.........blah, blah, blah.........did I mention semi-autos are better..........blah, blah, blah..............I'm cooler than you because I have a semi-auto.................blah, blah, blah..............


P.S. blah, blah, blah

P.P.S. Are you trying to sell me a class...........blah, blah, blah.........because I'm too smart for you.........blah, blah, blah........I can see through your subliminal selling techniques.........blah, blah, blah!!!!!

Gem1950
04-10-2011, 9:05 PM
Many believe that it is very practical to have a good revolver, or two, or three..., in 38sp/357 and handy carbine in the same caliber. I wouldn't be without them. Besides, there's something just plain fun about shooting a smooth operating lever gun. Maybe I watched too many John Wayne movies growing up?

crazy
04-10-2011, 9:09 PM
read my mind!

I have a .45-70 Guide Gun. I looked at the mag tube to see if it could be extended. I seem to remember that there was an issue extending the tube without replacing it. If it can be extended easily, I'm game.

I like this rifle but I think it costs double what I paid for mine.

http://www.gunblast.com/Marlin-1895SBL.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Marlin-1895SBL/DSC06877.JPG

cantcme
04-10-2011, 9:19 PM
Did someone really say a gun would go bang and disorient the shooter because the gun made the expected bang sound?

ChrisO
04-10-2011, 9:32 PM
Uh, no.
Unless you're using those rare 10-round Enbloc clips. ;)
Certainly another advantage to the lever gun is that you can easily top off the tube magazine without taking weapon out of action. You can't top off an M1 Garand at all.

You CAN top off a m1 garand :/ .

locosway
04-10-2011, 10:01 PM
Sorry... There's a reason why semi autos dominated the battle field. You can only fire round or flat tipped bullets out of a lever action. I can fire 10 shots, reload, and fire 10 more (and hit the target) with my ak's, ar's, m1 garand.

If you need to take down 10 people at once, then an AR is great. However, a lever gun chambered in a real rifle round can do far more if you use it properly. Barriers, distance, larger game. All of these should be taken into consideration. You must remember that a firearm is a tool, and part of being a tool is being used properly. You wouldn't take an AR chambered in .223 into the Alaskan wilderness. But, you'd probably feel fine with a lever gun in .44mag or 30-30.

Personally, I loved my Winchester '94 in 30-30. I could put the lead on the steel at great distances. The rifles are also fairly light and compact, making them ideal for carry.

I'd have no problem carrying a lever gun instead of an AR in most situations. The only times where I can see needing an AR is in a war type of situation, which I don't think was the focus on this article.

Ripon83
04-10-2011, 10:14 PM
Any thoughts about barrel length and thus tube capacity variations? I had always passed on lever rifles because of the size of the 357's until this year I found Rossi making a 24 inch. It fits me a lot better and doesn't feel like a kids rifle...maybe since I'm bigger then most kids....but are longer barrels and heavier weight going to negatively impact the rifle as a defensive weapon?

themailman
04-10-2011, 10:25 PM
Did someone really say a gun would go bang and disorient the shooter because the gun made the expected bang sound?

Ya, that was a first for me too. Because people dont shoot without hearing protection, they will be so scared of their own rifle that they will forget to cycle the action and thus die. Jesus.

drclark
04-10-2011, 10:56 PM
The write up was good and I think there is merit to the idea that there are other alternatives to the AK or AR pattern rifles.

However I think the pc factor for lever guns is a bit overrated. If I go walking down the street in LA with any type of rifle, I am willing to bet the cops will be showing up on a man with a gun call. Most self defense shootings are at close range and better suited for a handgun. Good luck arguing to a jury that the threat was far enough away you felt it necessary to engage a target with a rifle rather than retreating.

There are enough non aw-like semi auto options for folks seeking to avoid controversy to choose from.

Pistol caliber rounds give a decent mag capacity but limit max range to roughly 200 yds or less. Longer range rifle rounds give you a much more limited mag capacity.

The points you make about weight and ambidextrous operation are good points.

One of the perceived weaknesses of a lever gun as a combat arm is the susceptibility of damage to the tube while diving to the ground inhibiting magazine function. Have you found this to be a valid concern?

Also, how difficult is it to operate the lever while prone?

dexter9659
04-10-2011, 11:57 PM
Nice write up!

I must say I do enjoy shooting lever action rifles as much as I enjoy shooting my M1A, M1, AUG, USC ect. I have done as much work to my 1895g as any other gun I own which has turned it into coconut tossing, dragon killing wonder. While there is no way I could ever shoot it as fast as an AR, it is fast and accurate upto around 400 yards. Not better, just different.

locosway
04-11-2011, 12:08 AM
Just a side note... Anyone who thinks a non-semi-auto gun is slow is just plain wrong...

F1BwUJ4--Qw

CmpsdNoMore
04-11-2011, 3:46 AM
Ya, that was a first for me too. Because people dont shoot without hearing protection, they will be so scared of their own rifle that they will forget to cycle the action and thus die. Jesus.

Shot my first deer last November on opening day. I didn't even hear or feel the 7mm mag round (Ruger bolt gun) until about 3 hours later when I started to "come down" off my adrenaline high.

Same thing with pheasant hunting. No problem working the slide on my 500 after the shot. I was actually surprised at how fast I could get another shell chambered while moving and processing whether I would need another shot or not.

glock7
04-11-2011, 6:25 AM
good write up OP. i have been thinking of a lever gun to add to the collection. now i think i will. makes me feel like "the duke".:cowboy:

metalliman545
04-11-2011, 8:59 AM
Just a side note... Anyone who thinks a non-semi-auto gun is slow is just plain wrong...

F1BwUJ4--Qw
Easy when you used reduced power trailboss reloads with lead rounds. Notice he was using what seems to be a winchester 1897 shotgun. Slam fire anyone? The amount of people who shoot with ear pro greatly outnumbers those who don't in the us. Hell its one of the reasons I'm now almost deaf in my left ear and have had a constant loud ring in it since my first fire fight.

metalliman545
04-11-2011, 9:02 AM
If you need to take down

I'd have no problem carrying a lever gun instead of an AR in most situations. The only times where I can see needing an AR is in a war type of situation, which I don't think was the focus on this article.


Funny, cuz the title of the article is "the COMBAT lever action." And you have that silly sad picture of a lever action with reflex sight on a rail

locosway
04-11-2011, 9:27 AM
Easy when you used reduced power trailboss reloads with lead rounds. Notice he was using what seems to be a winchester 1897 shotgun. Slam fire anyone? The amount of people who shoot with ear pro greatly outnumbers those who don't in the us. Hell its one of the reasons I'm now almost deaf in my left ear and have had a constant loud ring in it since my first fire fight.

Yes, those are reduced power loads. But with a full power load you're only changing the speed a little bit.

Funny, cuz the title of the article is "the COMBAT lever action." And you have that silly sad picture of a lever action with reflex sight on a rail

I interpreted combat as personal defense, since that's what a lot of the article was talking about.

ChrisO
04-11-2011, 9:35 AM
Just a side note... Anyone who thinks a non-semi-auto gun is slow is just plain wrong...

F1BwUJ4--Qw


I do see a Lever action as a viable defense form, In fact I have a browning 92 in 44 mag that I sits guard duty every night in the cabin. However this video you posted is not a AVERAGE shooter shooting a average gun with average/factory loads. You can become fast and efficient with a lever gun but this gun has had a total tune from ground up and shooting low power loads. I think we all agree now that if we were in a free state in most situations a ar15 is a better choice, but we are not. I feel VERY comfortable with a ar15 carbine for HD but for the most part it never sits on HD duty since I don't want to get the book thrown at me even though my rifle is in legal configuration. I think a lever action carbine is a VERY good ALTERNATIVE for us here in CA and if you have a competent shooter behind the gun it's a deadly tool. Now if I had my choice between a lever gun and a mk18 to take to afghanistan there is no way I would even consider the lever gun, but thats a different story.

Cali-Shooter
04-11-2011, 10:24 AM
This makes me seriously consider getting a .357 Lever rifle, along with a .357 magnum :43:

H2O MAN
04-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Please tell me more about the mag extension.
Clements Custom Guns (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/) did the work.

What optic do you have on that rifle?
Aimpoint Micro T-1... it's currently riding on my MK14 Mod 0.

I re-installed the Leupold scout scope on my GG.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/GuideGun.jpg

crazy
04-11-2011, 1:00 PM
Clements Custom Guns (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/) did the work.


Aimpoint Micro T-1... it's currently riding on my MK14 Mod 0.

I re-installed the Leupold scout scope on my GG.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/GuideGun.jpg

Thanks for the link but I can't afford anything like that right now.:(

CSACANNONEER
04-11-2011, 2:14 PM
The amount of people who shoot with ear pro greatly outnumbers those who don't in the us. Hell its one of the reasons I'm now almost deaf in my left ear and have had a constant loud ring in it since my first fire fight.

Yea, most of us are smart enough to wear ears and eyes while at a range. But, you just don't seem to get the point that many of us are also hunters, ex military, reenactors, etc. and have shot without ear protection too. To this day, I don't wear ears when shooting 3" cannons or hunting but, I double up (plugs and muffs) when shooting 50s with muzzle brakes.

C.W.M.V.
04-11-2011, 2:19 PM
Yea, most of us are smart enough to wear ears and eyes while at a range. But, you just don't seem to get the point that many of us are also hunters, ex military, reenactors, etc. and have shot without ear protection too. To this day, I don't wear ears when shooting 3" cannons or hunting but, I double up (plugs and muffs) when shooting 50s with muzzle brakes.

Hell I wore ear pro in combat, and made sure my soldiers did the same. To do otherwise is just stupid.
Still have the tinnitus though. 120 mortars are a *****!:D

Blackglengarry
04-11-2011, 3:18 PM
Isn't there a similar thread to this on the High Road that has been going on for like... 8 years? For some reason it seems to stir up some deep emotions... Anyways, thanks for the write up! You make me want a .44 mag marlin to go with my s&w m29.

G-Solutions
04-11-2011, 3:56 PM
Pistol caliber rounds give a decent mag capacity but limit max range to roughly 200 yds or less. Longer range rifle rounds give you a much more limited mag capacity.
Pistol caliber carbines are more of a niche weapon. Low recoil, lower risk of overpenetration compared to rifle rounds. This is true regardless of the platform. From my personal experience, pistol caliber carbines are a good choice for smaller statured shooters. Problem is that here in CA hardly any fully functional PCC's (meaning no bullet buttons etc) are legal or readily available. Those that are are seldom economically feasible.

One of the perceived weaknesses of a lever gun as a combat arm is the susceptibility of damage to the tube while diving to the ground inhibiting magazine function. Have you found this to be a valid concern?
I have not yet encountered that problem. There are quite a few threads about lever action rifles in defensive applications on Warriortalk (http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?96-Fighting-Lever-amp-Bolt-Actions&), but it seems that no one there has had any problems of this type.

Also, how difficult is it to operate the lever while prone?
Not at all - I can't get low enough to bottom the lever out.

metalliman545
04-11-2011, 6:35 PM
Yea, most of us are smart enough to wear ears and eyes while at a range. But, you just don't seem to get the point that many of us are also hunters, ex military, reenactors, etc. and have shot without ear protection too. To this day, I don't wear ears when shooting 3" cannons or hunting but, I double up (plugs and muffs) when shooting 50s with muzzle brakes.

Only about 2% has served outta that 2% how many have actually been to combat? Wearing ear pro while out on patrols is just completely retarded especially dismounted. Re enactors shoot blanks. Far moree quieter then a full on shot. Try shooting inside of a house. Then say "oh its nothing I'm a hunter I'm used to the pow" there's a reason why swat officers are allowed to use supressors when raiding a house. Not to 'keep the noise down for the public" but to protect their hearing and the confusion of the extremely loud noise from the echoes From shooting in a house. That's what YOU don't get, you have one shot. Then you have to recock hell if you miss you're sol I know myself with a semi auto at least 3 shots will be fired before you recock and fire that 2nd.

locosway
04-11-2011, 6:38 PM
Only about 2% has served outta that 2% how many have actually been to combat? Wearing ear pro while out on patrols is just completely retarded especially dismounted. Re enactors shoot blanks. Far moree quieter then a full on shot. Try shooting inside of a house. Then say "oh its nothing I'm a hunter I'm used to the pow" there's a reason why swat officers are allowed to use supressors when raiding a house. Not to 'keep the noise down for the public" but to protect their hearing and the confusion of the extremely loud noise from the echoes From shooting in a house. That's what YOU don't get, you have one shot. Then you have to recock hell if you miss you're sol I know myself with a semi auto at least 3 shots will be fired before you recock and fire that 2nd.

I've fired a weapon in doors without ear pro on, I wasn't not disoriented from the noise. I've fired many weapons without ear pro, and I've never had a problem using any and all controls of the firearms, including my lever action when I had one. The notion that the noise will cause someone to not remember how their firearm functions is ridiculous at best.

97F1504RAD
04-11-2011, 6:43 PM
Only about 2% has served outta that 2% how many have actually been to combat? Wearing ear pro while out on patrols is just completely retarded especially dismounted. Re enactors shoot blanks. Far moree quieter then a full on shot. Try shooting inside of a house. Then say "oh its nothing I'm a hunter I'm used to the pow" there's a reason why swat officers are allowed to use supressors when raiding a house. Not to 'keep the noise down for the public" but to protect their hearing and the confusion of the extremely loud noise from the echoes From shooting in a house. That's what YOU don't get, you have one shot. Then you have to recock hell if you miss you're sol I know myself with a semi auto at least 3 shots will be fired before you recock and fire that 2nd.

Wow you just don't' get it. The OP is not talking about using a LA Rifle on a SWAT Team. He is merely pointing out another option for folks that may not want a semi auto weapon. Why can't you grasp that?

Paul_R
04-11-2011, 6:46 PM
Police departments use OSHA regs to get silencers. It's about hearing protection, nothing more. :rolleyes:

OR

Maybe too many of them screamed, dropped their weapons, and ran into things trying to escape the noise....:eek:

Time to stop feeding the troll.....:chris:

zod
04-11-2011, 7:26 PM
This is my .45-70 Combat Guide Gun with +2 mag tube extension and a few other upgrades.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/T56SHTF/guigegun001.jpg

Thats is sweet! Nice rifle!

CSACANNONEER
04-11-2011, 7:49 PM
Only about 2% has served outta that 2% how many have actually been to combat? Wearing ear pro while out on patrols is just completely retarded especially dismounted. Re enactors shoot blanks. Far moree quieter then a full on shot. Try shooting inside of a house. Then say "oh its nothing I'm a hunter I'm used to the pow" there's a reason why swat officers are allowed to use supressors when raiding a house. Not to 'keep the noise down for the public" but to protect their hearing and the confusion of the extremely loud noise from the echoes From shooting in a house. That's what YOU don't get, you have one shot. Then you have to recock hell if you miss you're sol I know myself with a semi auto at least 3 shots will be fired before you recock and fire that 2nd.

OK, I guess you win. Ylou must be the authority on all shooting related subjects. You're the only one here who has ever seen combat. You even think reenactors never live fire. Guess what, if you are currently in the service, I'm willing to bet that I've been shooting muzzleloaders since before you were born. I know how loud a live round is and how loud a blank is. There is not much different. In fact, some blanks are much LOUDER than live rounds. Ask anyone who has been to Angeles when Impactco touches of a blank. Yes, I have fired live ammo inside without ears on. I worked at an indoor range, scat happens but I've never been disoriented from the noise and have never heard of anyone who has. Oh, I'm sure you can pull the trigger really fast. A lot of young shooters seem to just like to hear the noise without caring where they're aiming.

Sumo99
04-12-2011, 10:43 AM
Remington 870 vs. Saiga 12 for HD :hide:

crazy
04-12-2011, 11:03 AM
Remington 870 vs. Saiga 12 for HD :hide:

Funny. You just want the poo to fly. LOL.

luckystrike
04-12-2011, 11:55 AM
combat lever action:rofl2:

SPROCKET
04-12-2011, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the write up; good stuff.

I'm always amused how the high speed, low drag, tactical operators come out of the woodwork on these threads. If you follow their logic, anything but a semi-auto rifle is a stupid or suicidal choice for self/home defense. The odd thing is their criticisms don't seem to flow over to pump shotguns, which logically have all the short comings they believe levers to have. Perhaps the wide variety of tacti-cool accessorizing options make up for any deficiencies the pump guns may have?

I'm thinking my next purchase is going to be a Rossi 92, with an action job in .357. In the meantime if anyone wants get rid of some of those crappy old Winchesters or Savages, PM me, I'll only charge you a $5 disposal fee. :D

Sumo99
04-12-2011, 12:28 PM
Funny. You just want the poo to fly. LOL.
I just couldn't resist. Just sometimes, these threads turn silly.
Heck, for home defense, I'd choose a lever action over my keltech su16. I'd choose a lever action over my Ruger 10/22. But I'd choose my AR or M1a over a LG. And, would choose my Benelli shotgun over everything I own.
Here's a question...What if you own a lever gun and an AR w/ a BB and only 1 10 round mag (I know crazy thought huh). Then what do you choose?

I mean everyone has some valid points. Bottom line, train with what you have and pray that you will never have to use that training.

Super Spy
04-12-2011, 12:40 PM
Thanks, Thanks a lot, now instead of planning on buying a lever gun in 45LC for Cowboy Action Shooting (one of those heavy barreled octagon ones no doubt) I think I'm going to have to get a Browning BLR takedown in 308 for hunting and my BOB TOO....maybe someone makes a larger capacity Mag for it in case of Zombie Invasions.

Having shot a couple of Cowboy tournaments with my buddy, I know lever guns can be very fast. I'd like to see a couple of the smack talkers in this thread knock down 10 plates faster with the gun of their choice.....I'm sure any top competitive shooter could, but I doubt the average mall ninja whose cup overflow with confidence would pull it off......

QQQ
04-12-2011, 1:05 PM
Good luck arguing to a jury that the threat was far enough away you felt it necessary to engage a target with a rifle rather than retreating.

There are enough non aw-like semi auto options for folks seeking to avoid controversy to choose from.

There is no duty to retreat in CA law (as far as I know). But please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, great write-up. Although I love my autoloaders, once I have enough cash I'll pony up for some cowboy-style stuff. It looks like a heckuva a lot of fun.

G-Solutions
04-12-2011, 3:25 PM
Here's a question...What if you own a lever gun and an AR w/ a BB and only 1 10 round mag (I know crazy thought huh). Then what do you choose?

I mean everyone has some valid points. Bottom line, train with what you have and pray that you will never have to use that training.

Here's a video that we took last year during a lever action seminar.... this is not cowboy action but rather geared towards defensive use of a Lever action. We shot the rifles dry and went to reloads from a forearm cuff... 3 seconds round to round shooting the rifle like a sharps.
Not tacticool, but still a decent rate of fire if you have some distance to work with.

http://www.gebhardsolutions.com/videos

That's why I like these forearm ammo cuffs :D

Iggy
04-12-2011, 3:32 PM
I've always wanted one of these.

http://www.rossiusa.com/images/imagesmain/RH92-50121_21.jpg

Can we get them in CA? LOL

Lagduf
04-12-2011, 4:03 PM
I've always wanted one of these.

http://www.rossiusa.com/images/imagesmain/RH92-50121_21.jpg

Can we get them in CA? LOL

Yeah as a single shot. I think it is otherwise dimensionally compliant.

biscuitbarrel
04-12-2011, 4:15 PM
Excellent work. I think I might just pick up a lever gun for defense or bug out time.

Lessthanperfect
04-12-2011, 4:53 PM
I just got a rossi 92 in 45 colt to match My Ruger Vaquero (blackhawk frame) for the mountains

I like it for self defense and for my BOB I really enjoyed reading the write up and really appreciate it.

It may not be fast but its reliable and packs a hell of a punch and will take out anything in the lower 48.

Gem1950
04-12-2011, 4:59 PM
I've always wanted one of these.

http://www.rossiusa.com/images/imagesmain/RH92-50121_21.jpg

Can we get them in CA? LOL

Doesn't this have to be registered as a pistol?

crazy
04-12-2011, 8:50 PM
It is a pistol.

WW2Buff
04-12-2011, 10:09 PM
While I feel like there are much better suited rifles for the job I have to commend the author for a very well put together evaluation of an uncommon way of doing something. Nice job. -Ben

Slash2
04-13-2011, 8:45 AM
This is my Hillbilly Assault Rifle, a Marlin '94 in .45 Colt cut down to 16.5 inches. The tube magazine still holds 8 rounds.

For those unfamiliar with he .45 Colt, the cartridge can be safely loaded to outperform the 44 Mag. provided you only shoot it in modern guns designed for higher pressures. This gun holds 9 rounds and shoots a 240 gr bullet at 1800 FPS, yet it's light and quick to point. Enough to take on anything that walks in North America at close range.

It's a great gun for following the blood trail of a wounded hog into the brush.


[http://www.satellitemodels.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/standing3.jpg

C.W.M.V.
04-13-2011, 10:08 AM
Only about 2% has served outta that 2% how many have actually been to combat? Wearing ear pro while out on patrols is just completely retarded especially dismounted...

Man, cant believe I missed this gem.:rolleyes:
Ok guy your big bad *** combat soldier, get over it. Your FAR from the only one. Lord I wish I could find the video on youtube of the part from full metal jacket where animal mother asks joker if hes seen much combat! That's all this post makes me think of!

So here's the deal, your saying this makes me believe that you didn't wear ear pro on patrol, which makes you either 1: A ****ty soldier or 2: A ****ty leader. If your just a squad member then I'm sure you leadership followed theater policy and enforced the standards as they were given and made their soldiers wear eye and ear protection. If you were stupid enough to take it out because of some deluded Vietnam fantasy flash-back then that's your bad. If you were a leader that didn't enforce standards because you thought charlie would get ya, well, your a ****ty leader. You don't get to pick and choose what to enforce and what not to unless your something like theater CSM (I actually knew CSM Ciatola, who was MNCI CSM for a while after he was our brigade/Div CSM. Amazing man who taught me many things about NCO leadership).
Aside from doing your job and adhering to theater uniform standards there is no reason not to wear ear pro on patrol. If you really think that the 25 cent foam piece in your ear is going to stop you from hearing something important then you've obviously never been in the situation.
So there it is. You don't like this? Well stop saying stupid ****. A true rifleman knows that the weapon is secondary to the soldier using it. A well trained and disciplined rifleman with an 03 Springfield is a more deadly opponent than a conscript with an M16. So I promise you that an expert with his lever action rofle will pose more than an ample challenge to your bad-*** Ive-been-in-combat-no-ear-pro-wearing self.

locosway
04-13-2011, 10:19 AM
Man, cant believe I missed this gem.:rolleyes:
Ok guy your big bad *** combat soldier, get over it. Your FAR from the only one. Lord I wish I could find the video on youtube of the part from full metal jacket where animal mother asks joker if hes seen much combat! That's all this post makes me think of!

So here's the deal, your saying this makes me believe that you didn't wear ear pro on patrol, which makes you either 1: A ****ty soldier or 2: A ****ty leader. If your just a squad member then I'm sure you leadership followed theater policy and enforced the standards as they were given and made their soldiers wear eye and ear protection. If you were stupid enough to take it out because of some deluded Vietnam fantasy flash-back then that's your bad. If you were a leader that didn't enforce standards because you thought charlie would get ya, well, your a ****ty leader. You don't get to pick and choose what to enforce and what not to unless your something like theater CSM (I actually knew CSM Ciatola, who was MNCI CSM for a while after he was our brigade/Div CSM. Amazing man who taught me many things about NCO leadership).
Aside from doing your job and adhering to theater uniform standards there is no reason not to wear ear pro on patrol. If you really think that the 25 cent foam piece in your ear is going to stop you from hearing something important then you've obviously never been in the situation.
So there it is. You don't like this? Well stop saying stupid ****. A true rifleman knows that the weapon is secondary to the soldier using it. A well trained and disciplined rifleman with an 03 Springfield is a more deadly opponent than a conscript with an M16. So I promise you that an expert with his lever action rofle will pose more than an ample challenge to your bad-*** Ive-been-in-combat-no-ear-pro-wearing self.

I've never served, but I believe this to be spot on. The gun is not as important as the person pulling the trigger.

crazy
04-13-2011, 11:02 AM
Man, cant believe I missed this gem.:rolleyes:
Ok guy your big bad *** combat soldier, get over it. Your FAR from the only one. Lord I wish I could find the video on youtube of the part from full metal jacket where animal mother asks joker if hes seen much combat! That's all this post makes me think of!

So here's the deal, your saying this makes me believe that you didn't wear ear pro on patrol, which makes you either 1: A ****ty soldier or 2: A ****ty leader. If your just a squad member then I'm sure you leadership followed theater policy and enforced the standards as they were given and made their soldiers wear eye and ear protection. If you were stupid enough to take it out because of some deluded Vietnam fantasy flash-back then that's your bad. If you were a leader that didn't enforce standards because you thought charlie would get ya, well, your a ****ty leader. You don't get to pick and choose what to enforce and what not to unless your something like theater CSM (I actually knew CSM Ciatola, who was MNCI CSM for a while after he was our brigade/Div CSM. Amazing man who taught me many things about NCO leadership).
Aside from doing your job and adhering to theater uniform standards there is no reason not to wear ear pro on patrol. If you really think that the 25 cent foam piece in your ear is going to stop you from hearing something important then you've obviously never been in the situation.
So there it is. You don't like this? Well stop saying stupid ****. A true rifleman knows that the weapon is secondary to the soldier using it. A well trained and disciplined rifleman with an 03 Springfield is a more deadly opponent than a conscript with an M16. So I promise you that an expert with his lever action rofle will pose more than an ample challenge to your bad-*** Ive-been-in-combat-no-ear-pro-wearing self.

OUCH! :mnl:

thrillhouse700
04-13-2011, 11:37 AM
CWMV ftw

outkast353
04-13-2011, 9:26 PM
I had a pump action 22 LR and I could shoot pretty quick with it.

Mikeb
04-14-2011, 3:13 PM
I love my cowboy assault weapon. Before I found CGN I did think it was the only option left for a repeating rifle that held more than 10 rounds. Heck I can load it on Sunday and shoot all week.
take care
Mike

G-Solutions
04-14-2011, 3:14 PM
Pumps work well too. You can manipulate very fast, from either shoulder, the only challenge is the transfer from one shoulder to the other.

If you're right handed and transfer to the left, the first shot from half transfer position (right handed hold on left shoulder) takes some getting used to, since your left hand has to slide back a bit, depending on the shotgun it will end up behind the forearm.

That's the part that is a bit more natural with the levergun if you have a manually cycled weapon.

[...] The gun is not as important as the person pulling the trigger.

You're quite right about that: I had a 60+ year-old lady in a 2-day handgun class that shot the entire course with a J-Frame Revolver. 600 rounds out of a lightweight frame gun, reloading twice as often as everyone else in the course - sure, her hits were a little further apart than those of the semi-auto shooters, but I would most definitely not want to be on the receiving end of her skills. She had the fighting mindset and the skills to work her gun very efficiently.

smle-man
04-14-2011, 10:08 PM
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/e78984e3.jpg

I like my Timberwolf in .44 magnum. Faster than any of my levers.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P5310043.jpg

My Thunderbolt in .45 Colt may be the only one that functions perfectly. The pump stroke is very short and fast. It is a bit long and I'm thinking of having it cut to 20" to make it a bit more handy.

Griff093
05-30-2011, 9:31 AM
G-Solutions,

Very good article.

Two points.

1st: The closed top as you described the Marlin is NOT the stronger of the two options. For two reasons, 1 - in the 1894 the bolt is support on only the left side and by a very thin rail protruding from the top of the bolt into that thin rib that constitutes the top of the action... the right side of the bolt is not supported at all; 2 - the locking lug only engages a portion of the bolt. The 336 action (same as the current 1895 model) is somewhat stronger as the new enclosed rear portion does support the bolt from the right, but again... the locking lug doesn't fully engage the rear of the bolt. The Winchester 94 and 92 (and its' clones) have the full height of the bolt engaged by the locking lug(s). In tests for the .375 Winchester cartridge, the 336 action failed (or began separating) before the Win 94 (by only a few shots... so it's kinda moot). This is the reason you'll not see Marlin (Remington now) building their 1894 action to use cartridges in the .454 Casull or .480 Ruger class, whereas Rossi does on their 1892 clone.

2nd Point: You can speed load a lever gun.
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/5293090542/abae2b7cc817e2041bb39286a557ace4.jpg?
These are easily made from PVC and a wood dowel. Although the clear tubing is nice.

I am currently building a Marlin 1894 for use in competition, and it may become my new BOG as I refine it. It'll have a 16-½" octagon barrel, and although nominally chambered for .45 Colt, I'll be modifying it to shoot the Cowboy45Special (http://www.cowboy45special.com/) cartridge (marriage of a 45ACP case with .45 Colt rim). I've already tested my loads, 200 grain pill of whatever design I like using 45ACP dies and a .45Colt shellholder to load the exact loading for the Marlin and my 1911s.

I'd feed the trolls, but since this is my first post... I'll leave well enough alone.

CSACANNONEER
05-30-2011, 9:40 AM
Griff,

Awesome first post. I like the clear ridged tubing idea too. Also, thanks for the link.

Malamute
05-30-2011, 11:14 AM
Good post Uli, well done.

I've been a long time user of leverguns, and feel most don't appreciate their usefulness for many circumstances. They aren't the only guns I have, and I'm in a free state, but still don't feel they are bad choices by any means for a protection gun when one is fairly well versed and experienced with them. I'm talking civilian use, not battlefield use. The fast handling makes hitting running rabbits and things tossed in the air possible, and carrying some rounds easily accesible makes keeping one loaded fairly simple.

Wanted to make a couple comments. I've extended several Marlin 45-70 magazine tubes. This was before the longer barrel full magazine guns were available, so I bought a spare tube and had a gunsmith splice them together. They are too thin to step, so it's a butt splice. There's a bulge on the left side for the round to make it "around the corner" so to speak when loading rounds into the loading gate, so that needs to be set up in proper relationship, but it isn't difficult otherwise. With the longer tubes available, shortening one for use on your guide guns shouldnt be hard to do, it just needs to be shortened from the front end because of the bulge, and new holes drilled for the screw/hangar stud. Your gunsmith should be aware of that when he prices it, it isnt a simple "cut off to length from the back end" job. Not complicated, but not as simple as it first appears. I think the splices cost me about $40 when I had them done, cutting a tube shouldn't be much more than that today.

Griff mentioned the "strength" thing. There was a guy in Wyoming that did some experimenting with several lever guns for possible use with 454 Cassull. He had a Marlin 336, a couple different Winchester 94's (a 1920's gun and an angle eject) and something else. All failed in less than 20-40 rounds, tho none catastrophically, just stretched and became impossible to function the gun. The 336 failed the quickest, at less than 20 rounds, the receiver walls bulged out where the locking bolts ride, and simply became impossible to operate the action, the next one was the angle eject, it stretched the right sidwalls of the receiver and it also became impossible to operate. The 1920's 94 lasted longer (by about a dozen rounds I belive). Not really much point in all that, but to simply illustrate a point, that what seems "obvious" (Marlins obviously are stronger) isn't always what it first apears. I would simply point out that all the common lever actions are strong enough to shoot extensively for a lifetime or two without issue when used with rounds they are intended for. I don't recall seeing a lever action that was so heavily used that it was truly worn out, or that "strength" had any part in its usefulness.


I tend to prefer the open top (Winchester) action, as they are easier to single load. I've single loaded them for shooting small game rounds in, and they are easier for me to single load than Marlins, especially when I shoot and eject the light loads, leaving the magazine loaded.


Many of the newer guns are a bit sticky as far as loading fresh rounds in the gte when the previous round is all the way in. The older guns operate very smoothly in that regard. The newer guns can be slicked up on the rib on the back of the loading gate that cams the loaded round forward and made to load very easily, it's a simple job. Getting the screw back in the gate straight and not cross threading it is the hardest part.


Many like the fact that Marlins can be taken apart easily. I've simply found it unecesary to take a Winchester apart for cleaning, especially in the field. They can be cleaned quite well with a toothbrush in the action, and a rod thru the muzzle. I use a muzzle guide, and don't worry about it. I have a 1920's 94 that was a ranch gun that looked like it literally hadn't been cleaned in 50 years when I got it, and it functioned fine, if a bit muddy feeling. After stripping it and cleaning it well 25 years ago, I haven't had it apart again, it works very well. It's my rainy weather and truck gun, as it doesn't have much finish left, and the wood is pretty well worn.


For easier loading, a few rounds grabbed from your bag or pocket can be stuck bullet ends between your left hand fingers, and grabbed one at a time to be loaded, makes it a little quicker and easier. A cartridge belt is a handy way to carry rounds accesible also, and have a different load available if wanted. I wear the belt backwards for easy reach to the rounds. I keep a couple extra-light loads (3 grs Unique w/ a round ball in the 30-30) handy in the belt when in snake country. A cartridge slide would also work. A 38 caliber pistol cartridge belt works pretty well for 30-30 use. The belt makes grabbing the gun and some rounds simple. Most hold 25-30 rds.

A decent aperture sight, a blade front like a sourdough type, and a sling is about all thats neccesary for most leverguns to be more useful and user friendly.

When sighted properly (I sight in 3" high @ 100 yds), and using loads other than the Hornady 170's the 30-30 shoots a bit flatter than most realize, even without the leverevolution rounds. Study your ballistics tables, not the advertising copy of Hornady, and you will see what I mean.


One point to consider with any protection gun is how likely you are to have it when you actually need it. I once asked a friend what he carried in his vehicle, as he was quite interested in self defense arms, and they were the source of much discussion from him. I was surprised to learn he didn't carry any guns in his vehicle. I asked if he felt he would only ever need a gun when he was at home. He keeps guns in his vehicles now. I find that leverguns are much more likely to be in my hand or truck if or when I need a rifle than self loaders. Shootouts aren't the only reason I carry. I've also found most self loaders arent really all that handy to actually carry around, and I've had and carried a fair variety of self loaders. They tend to be bulky and awkward, especially compared to a lever gun.

HUTCH 7.62
05-30-2011, 11:22 AM
Lever Actions..... the original assault rifle.

KandyRedCoi
05-30-2011, 11:43 AM
yes i want a lever action for all the pluses mentioned on this thread

i know it sucks, but the political correctness does play a big role...whether we like it or not, esp in CA.

and to be honest....im not really a fan of those BULLET BUTTONS, so any rifle i can own that does not require one and can be handled confidently is a surefire winner in my book

time to save some pennies and get a lever action :D

Midtown Gunner
05-31-2011, 1:41 AM
There's a reason it's called the "Appalachian Assault Rifle". :cool:

Javi
01-24-2012, 9:55 PM
Sorry guys, am aware that is this an old bump but I found this video while browsing some cowboy shooting and then found this thread through a Google search(works much better than the forum search). Thought both the video and this write up were brilliant so I wanted to share. I missed this thread the first time around so maybe others would appreciate it too.

5c71cGMb6sU