blacklisted
11-10-2006, 12:04 AM
Since it seems like the other thread was lost in the transfer, let's discuss the DPMS LR-308. Issues like this must be discussed. Does anyone else remember the Wilson Tactical confusion? Just looking like it maybe on the list is not enough. In addition to this, there will likely be many issues in the future with various AK type firearms and manufacturer/importer confusion. All of this combined with AB2728's effect of removing the Attorney General's authority to update the AW list could potentially end up in our favor. Issues with the list (Harrott) are what allow us to have these in the first place.
The Kasler list has this entry for DPMS:
DPMS
Panther (all)
We know that make and model must both be specifically listed in order for the entry to be valid. Obviously, it would not be a good thing to purchase a lower if the Kasler list formatting was like this:
Manufacturer
Model B (all)
and the markings on the lower were:
<logo>
Manufacturer
Mod: B2
Or in the case of the DPMS:
DPMS
...
Mod: Panther LR-308
However, the DPMS is not formatted like this. All photos that I have seen indicate that the markings on the receiver look something like this:
DPMS
PANTHER ARMS <panther logo>
CAL: 308
MOD: LR-308
SN: XXXX
The MAKE seems to be "DPMS Panther ARMS" and the model "LR-308". It is clearly marked as such. The model is NOT "Panther LR-308."
The confusion by those that drafted this list was likely caused by DPMS listing these models on their website (or in other material available at the time) as Panther LR-308*, Panther LR-308B*, Panther LR-308T*, and Panther LR-308AP4*.
This is very similar to the situation with RRA. The Kasler list has this entry for Rock River Arms:
Rock River Arms, Inc.
Standard A-2
Car A2
Standard A-4 Flattop
Car A4 Flattop
NM A2 - DCM Legal
LE Tactical Carbine
As you can see, they used the manufacturer's advertising names for their various products instead of the markings on the lower receiver.
One actual marking for an RRA lower is:
ROCK RIVER ARMS
COLONA, IL
CAL. 5.56 MM
LAR-15
S/N
Although the complete firearm configured with this lower may indeed have been advertised at one time as a "Car A4 Flattop", that doesn't change the fact that the model of the firearm is the LAR-15. I see this as being very similar to the DPMS situation. The "Panther" does not seem to be part of the model name, but a name used in the manufacturer's advertising. The model for the firearm in question is the LR-308.
*These particular models might not have been available at the time the list was drafted. After all, the list was supposed to reference AR-15 "series" weapons, NOT its bastard chidren. In any case, they used the same strategy with the DPMS AR-15 "series". DPMS advertises their ARs in a similar way as RRA (Panther AP4 Carbine, Panther Carbine A2, Panther DCM, etc.) However, they have so many models that it may have been too much to include on the list, so they shortened it with "all" since "panther" seemed to be in all the model names.
What do you think? I'll try to find some decent pictures tomorrow. Maybe someone could point out some other problems with the AW list?
:D
The Kasler list has this entry for DPMS:
DPMS
Panther (all)
We know that make and model must both be specifically listed in order for the entry to be valid. Obviously, it would not be a good thing to purchase a lower if the Kasler list formatting was like this:
Manufacturer
Model B (all)
and the markings on the lower were:
<logo>
Manufacturer
Mod: B2
Or in the case of the DPMS:
DPMS
...
Mod: Panther LR-308
However, the DPMS is not formatted like this. All photos that I have seen indicate that the markings on the receiver look something like this:
DPMS
PANTHER ARMS <panther logo>
CAL: 308
MOD: LR-308
SN: XXXX
The MAKE seems to be "DPMS Panther ARMS" and the model "LR-308". It is clearly marked as such. The model is NOT "Panther LR-308."
The confusion by those that drafted this list was likely caused by DPMS listing these models on their website (or in other material available at the time) as Panther LR-308*, Panther LR-308B*, Panther LR-308T*, and Panther LR-308AP4*.
This is very similar to the situation with RRA. The Kasler list has this entry for Rock River Arms:
Rock River Arms, Inc.
Standard A-2
Car A2
Standard A-4 Flattop
Car A4 Flattop
NM A2 - DCM Legal
LE Tactical Carbine
As you can see, they used the manufacturer's advertising names for their various products instead of the markings on the lower receiver.
One actual marking for an RRA lower is:
ROCK RIVER ARMS
COLONA, IL
CAL. 5.56 MM
LAR-15
S/N
Although the complete firearm configured with this lower may indeed have been advertised at one time as a "Car A4 Flattop", that doesn't change the fact that the model of the firearm is the LAR-15. I see this as being very similar to the DPMS situation. The "Panther" does not seem to be part of the model name, but a name used in the manufacturer's advertising. The model for the firearm in question is the LR-308.
*These particular models might not have been available at the time the list was drafted. After all, the list was supposed to reference AR-15 "series" weapons, NOT its bastard chidren. In any case, they used the same strategy with the DPMS AR-15 "series". DPMS advertises their ARs in a similar way as RRA (Panther AP4 Carbine, Panther Carbine A2, Panther DCM, etc.) However, they have so many models that it may have been too much to include on the list, so they shortened it with "all" since "panther" seemed to be in all the model names.
What do you think? I'll try to find some decent pictures tomorrow. Maybe someone could point out some other problems with the AW list?
:D