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View Full Version : Benelli M4 is illegal right?


Rugerman
11-09-2006, 10:58 PM
since it has the pistol grip (EVIL FEATURE) right?

NSR500
11-09-2006, 11:02 PM
No... As long as you don't have a 7 round tube in it and a barrel shorter than 16", it should be as legal as my M1S90 with Pistol Grip.

Josh
11-09-2006, 11:27 PM
No... As long as you don't have a 7 round tube in it and a barrel shorter than 16", it should be as legal as my M1S90 with Pistol Grip.

shotguns are limited to 18in barrels min.

also the 7rd tube is fine, possibly it violates 922r thats on a federal level.

NSR500
11-09-2006, 11:39 PM
Hmmm... I've gotta break mine out of the safe tomorrow and measure it up again.

PIRATE14
11-09-2006, 11:48 PM
Hmmm... I've gotta break mine out of the safe tomorrow and measure it up again.

18" MIN.....no way you've got one shorter than that, unless you cut it or got it AOW.....not likely in this state.

NSR500
11-09-2006, 11:49 PM
Couldn't wait... Mine comes in at 18.5", so disregard what I said about 16" unless you want to go to jail. LOL...

Librarian
11-10-2006, 12:17 AM
since it has the pistol grip (EVIL FEATURE) right?
It looks like this is a concern over whether a pistol grip can make a shotgun a CA 'assault weapon'; if so, the answer is "no":
12276 (c) All of the following specified shotguns:
(1) Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12.
(2) Striker 12.
(3) The Streetsweeper type S/S Inc. SS/12.

12276.1 (7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder. is apparently all the aw law says about shotguns.

xenophobe
11-10-2006, 12:20 AM
The only laws regulating the Benelli M4 are the Federal importation laws...

If it's a semi-automatic shotgun with a capacity of up to five rounds, it can be imported with a pistol grip. You can't add a 7 round extension to it without removing the pistol grip.

That's why HK Benelli M1's are desirable. You can have the extended magazine and the pistol grip stock.

gose
11-10-2006, 6:58 AM
The only laws regulating the Benelli M4 are the Federal importation laws...

If it's a semi-automatic shotgun with a capacity of up to five rounds, it can be imported with a pistol grip. You can't add a 7 round extension to it without removing the pistol grip.

That's why HK Benelli M1's are desirable. You can have the extended magazine and the pistol grip stock.

Not entirely true. You only need to replace one part to be in compliance with 922(r), so a new follower, mag body or forearm (Made in the US) will get you to 10 parts and you can then enjoy your mag extension and pistol grip.

xenophobe
11-10-2006, 11:51 AM
Who makes Benelli compliance parts in the US?

bwiese
11-10-2006, 11:54 AM
Someone needs to make US-mfgd mag extensions for Benellis...

gose
11-10-2006, 12:30 PM
Mfr: SRM PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=23213
"M4 kit contains extension tube, spring, and follower."

So that should be all you need :)

Or you could get the SureFire M80 Picatinny Rail Forend, which would also reduce the parts count to 10.

There are probably more options out there as well....

Spawn_X
11-10-2006, 1:48 PM
The only laws regulating the Benelli M4 are the Federal importation laws...

If it's a semi-automatic shotgun with a capacity of up to five rounds, it can be imported with a pistol grip. You can't add a 7 round extension to it without removing the pistol grip.

Are you sure?? I thought a US made extension was ok as its a US made part :confused: there's many many guys with them.. <see below?>

I've got an M4 and have been hung up on that. It seemed a grey area to me but 99.99% say that a US made extension is OK.. ?

Mfr: SRM PERFORMANCE PRODUCTS
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=23213
"M4 kit contains extension tube, spring, and follower."

So that should be all you need :)

Or you could get the SureFire M80 Picatinny Rail Forend, which would also reduce the parts count to 10.

There are probably more options out there as well....

gose
11-10-2006, 2:10 PM
Are you sure?? I thought a US made extension was ok as its a US made part :confused: there's many many guys with them.. <see below?>

I've got an M4 and have been hung up on that. It seemed a grey area to me but 99.99% say that a US made extension is OK.. ?

According to ATF, the M4 has 11 listed parts and hence you need to replace only one(1) to be in 922(r) compliance. The extension is not a listed part, so it doesn't matter where the extension is made, what matters is that you replace one of the 11 listed parts with a US made one.

Josh
11-10-2006, 2:24 PM
Someone needs to make US-mfgd mag extensions for Benellis...


Someone does. http://shootersconnection.com/store/index.php?cPath=123&osCsid=8cee3cb143f571c76111354e0c7150d8

They also come with a US made follower.

thekwyjibo
11-10-2006, 3:47 PM
According to ATF, the M4 has 11 listed parts and hence you need to replace only one(1) to be in 922(r) compliance. The extension is not a listed part, so it doesn't matter where the extension is made, what matters is that you replace one of the 11 listed parts with a US made one.

I suspect you are referring to the information that started from AR15.com, it is not actually correct anymore. The DOJ apparently realised that they had made a mistake and have since updated their list. The response that I received from them came back with a list of 13 parts for an M4.

The list as of 10/6 is as follows:
Receiver
Barrel
Bolt
Bolt Carrier
Gas Piston (they are treating the double piston as a single item)
Trigger housing
Trigger
Hammer
Disconnector
Buttstock
Forearm
Magazine Body(s)
Follower

They clearly state that the Pistol grip is considered part of the stock as the rubber wraparound is a gripping surface not a grip in and of itself. (this is NOT true of the m4 1014, the one with the telescoping stock that was forced fixed, that one has 14 parts).

Either way, I would shoot of a letter to the federal DOJ before making any modifications in case you run into someone who questions the gun's legality.

allenst65
11-10-2006, 4:10 PM
The only laws regulating the Benelli M4 are the Federal importation laws...

If it's a semi-automatic shotgun with a capacity of up to five rounds, it can be imported with a pistol grip. You can't add a 7 round extension to it without removing the pistol grip.

Can you direct us to a specific document number, subsection, etc which explicitly calls out this point? I want to see the exact doc which calls out a semi-auto, pistol gripped shotgun with mag capacity over 5 rounds as being 'non-sporting'.

I know regular stocked, imported semi-auto shotguns with >5 rnd mags are sold in every shop so the only hold-up would have to be the pistol grip. If so, simple installing a standard stock on an M4 would discount any need to worry about part counts and finding US made pistons, etc.

gose
11-10-2006, 4:37 PM
Can you direct us to a specific document number, subsection, etc which explicitly calls out this point? I want to see the exact doc which calls out a semi-auto, pistol gripped shotgun with mag capacity over 5 rounds as being 'non-sporting'.

I know regular stocked, imported semi-auto shotguns with >5 rnd mags are sold in every shop so the only hold-up would have to be the pistol grip. If so, simple installing a standard stock on an M4 would discount any need to worry about part counts and finding US made pistons, etc.

The number five is mentioned in 922(?), but I don't think there are any official points on what constitutes a non-sporting firearm. AFAIK it's up to ATF to deem a rifle/shotgun sporting/non-sporting.
If the M4 has been deemed to be a non-sporting shotgun and therefor being limited to 5 rounds, simply changing the stock will probably not make it sporting. I would not want to do this without a letter from ATF.
Looks like the previous letter from ATF was wrong, and your list is correct. :(
I know there are US made forearms and followers, so now we need to find someone who can produce one of the other parts...

Josh
11-10-2006, 4:55 PM
The number five is mentioned in 922(?), but I don't think there are any official points on what constitutes a non-sporting firearm. AFAIK it's up to ATF to deem a rifle/shotgun sporting/non-sporting.
If the M4 has been deemed to be a non-sporting shotgun and therefor being limited to 5 rounds, simply changing the stock will probably not make it sporting. I would not want to do this without a letter from ATF.
Looks like the previous letter from ATF was wrong, and your list is correct. :(
I know there are US made forearms and followers, so now we need to find someone who can produce one of the other parts...


922r

yup, its atf discretion as to what is sporting and non sporting.

Spawn_X
11-10-2006, 5:03 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=29382

gose
11-10-2006, 5:06 PM
There is a guy over at the benelli forums selling a US made full-length replacement mag tube. That together with a new follower and a new forearm should be enough, even with the "new" list :)
Assuming you don't put on a foreign made extension, because then you're back to 11 parts...

E__WOK
11-10-2006, 6:00 PM
Not entirely true. You only need to replace one part to be in compliance with 922(r), so a new follower, mag body or forearm (Made in the US) will get you to 10 parts and you can then enjoy your mag extension and pistol grip.

When did this law come into effect?

thekwyjibo
11-10-2006, 7:12 PM
There is a guy over at the benelli forums selling a US made full-length replacement mag tube. That together with a new follower and a new forearm should be enough, even with the "new" list :)
Assuming you don't put on a foreign made extension, because then you're back to 11 parts...

Actually the law states that you have to have 10parts or less from the list but you would have to replace the entire magazine with one of the full length replacement tubes (not just add an extension, so long as the entire magazine were replaced (and forend and follower) then you would have compliance (10 imported parts). if you were to use an extension you would have to replace another part to bring it to the 10 part compliance requirement.

For those interested, he was selling on AR15.com for a while, until they pulled the ad (the admin pulled it from ar15 because they felt that it might compete with paying ads). Everyone who purchased seemed satisified with the quality, I am hoping that he will make the gas pistons. Not sure I want to replace the stock forend.
http://www.benelliusa.com/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/3739.html#000000

thekwyjibo
11-10-2006, 7:13 PM
When did this law come into effect?

US code 18 was signed into law by George Bush the first in 1989 if memory serves.

Lurker251
11-10-2006, 8:28 PM
I got the full length tube from the gentleman that originally listed them for sale on the ar15.com forum back in July/Aug. A FIRST rate product. Perfectly matched to the M4 in fit, finish and color. It is even better than the batch of OEM full-length tubes that became available in Sept. All the OEM tubes had swirl tool-marks on them.

Full length tube replaced the standard 5 round tube and 2 round limiter. Pistol-grip stock swapped out to a standard stock. (EDIT: read the updated DOJ list. So guess the 2 round limiter and mag tube are regarded as one).

Spawn_X
11-14-2006, 10:11 AM
Just FYI, I bought my M4 from a reputable dealer in Burbank, CA, and they offered to order me the extension when buying and said a +2 is perfectly legal

These guys carry a large inventory, so I'm sure they are carefull when it comes to legalities, but could be they aren't that deeply into the whole parts count thing :confused:

gose
11-14-2006, 10:23 AM
Just FYI, I bought my M4 from a reputable dealer in Burbank, CA, and they offered to order me the extension when buying and said a +2 is perfectly legal

These guys carry a large inventory, so I'm sure they are carefull when it comes to legalities, but could be they aren't that deeply into the whole parts count thing :confused:

Well, looks like your reputable dealer's view on what's legal differs from the ATF's view ;)

Selling you a +2 extension is perfectly legal, you adding it to your shotgun isn't. So they've got their back covered, you're the one who might get in trouble...

JPN6336
11-16-2006, 9:37 AM
Just FYI, I bought my M4 from a reputable dealer in Burbank, CA, and they offered to order me the extension when buying and said a +2 is perfectly legal

These guys carry a large inventory, so I'm sure they are carefull when it comes to legalities, but could be they aren't that deeply into the whole parts count thing :confused:

I recently had a dealer with a good sized inventory tell me the new Beretta 90Two is on the list and so he can sell it. No matter how many times I scour the list, I only find original 92/96 series. Bottom line is that having inventory doesn't make them experts on legal issues, read the laws for yourself, contact BATF and/or DOJ for clarification as necessary and make your own decisions.

Rugerman
11-17-2006, 5:41 PM
thanks for all the info guys! so since a place like ImpactGuns is WITHIN the USA i can order a Benelli M4 with the pistol grip on, right? and if the pistol grip is allowed, a 7 round extension tube can be added too right? :D

slick_711
11-17-2006, 7:02 PM
I recently had a dealer with a good sized inventory tell me the new Beretta 90Two is on the list and so he can sell it. No matter how many times I scour the list, I only find original 92/96 series. Bottom line is that having inventory doesn't make them experts on legal issues, read the laws for yourself, contact BATF and/or DOJ for clarification as necessary and make your own decisions.

:confused: The Ninety-Two is not on the list, although Beretta claims it will be soon. However, the dealer selling you something not on the list is a crime only for the dealer, there is little/no way you yourself could get into trouble for purchasing a gun not on the list as long as you go through the paperwork and purchase it in the same fashion you would purchase any other legal handgun. However, how your dealer will DROS something that is not in the DROS menu I couldn't tell you.

gose
11-17-2006, 8:55 PM
thanks for all the info guys! so since a place like ImpactGuns is WITHIN the USA i can order a Benelli M4 with the pistol grip on, right? and if the pistol grip is allowed, a 7 round extension tube can be added too right? :D

Sure, if Impactguns manufacture the Benellis themselves. I somehow believe that they do import the Benellis they sell though, which means you're SOL unless YOU buy replacement parts to get the parts count down to 10.

Josh
11-17-2006, 10:15 PM
thanks for all the info guys! so since a place like ImpactGuns is WITHIN the USA i can order a Benelli M4 with the pistol grip on, right? and if the pistol grip is allowed, a 7 round extension tube can be added too right? :D

It dosent matter where you get it from, it matters where the gun or parts of it are made.

Rugerman
11-29-2006, 3:52 PM
i get it now. and whats the 10 parts thing about? more info please!

thekwyjibo
11-30-2006, 5:53 PM
i get it now. and whats the 10 parts thing about? more info please!

check my post on page 2 for some more information on the subject, there is a list of parts that are used to define a 'gun'. To not be 'imported' the gun must have no more than 10 of those parts be imported manufacture.
The benelli has 13 parts, because of this, you must replace 3 of those parts with domestic manufacture replacements. For instance if you replaced the forend, the magazine (NOT an extension, but a full tube), and the plastic follower (what pushes against the shells in the magazine, then you would be legal (as long as the federal DOJ doesn't change the list again).

Rugerman
12-01-2006, 3:21 PM
is there a link to a domestically made forend, follower, and magazine? And what would take the place of the plastic follower?

Hunter
12-01-2006, 4:07 PM
US code 18 was signed into law by George Bush the first in 1989 if memory serves.


It actually took effect 11/30/1991. Anything imported prior to that is OK. Anything after that must follow 922(r) restrictions.

thekwyjibo
12-01-2006, 5:22 PM
is there a link to a domestically made forend, follower, and magazine? And what would take the place of the plastic follower?

Not sure if there is anyone who makes only the follower but there are some manufacturers who are making extension kits that include domestic followers although $80-100 seems steep to get just a follower. Please remember that just the magazine extension alone is not the same as a full magazine and would require another part to be replaced.

This is a link (http://www.surecycle.com/default.asp?page_id=3&parent_id=0&CategoryId=30)to a company that sells an extension and follower. As stated a bit steep but if there are no other options it may be ok to stay legal.

As for full length tubes (http://www.benelliusa.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003739;p=0#0000 00) He is also talking about making gas pistons but hasn't done it yet (if that were the case, then you would have one less part to get, and would not need to get a forend)

The forend (http://www.benelliusa.com/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/1677/5.html)
(not available yet but coming from Mesa Tactical).

thekwyjibo
12-01-2006, 5:23 PM
It actually took effect 11/30/1991. Anything imported prior to that is OK. Anything after that must follow 922(r) restrictions.

got it (memory not as good as I though then)

gose
12-01-2006, 6:42 PM
AFAIK there is a guy making mag tubes, I've seen US made followers and I think surefire makes a forearm, so it should be possible to build a compliant M4.

Sorry, but don't have the links, google can probably help you.

Rugerman
12-05-2006, 4:23 PM
whats the reason for changing the stock forend anyway?

cseabass
12-15-2006, 10:56 AM
what about the collapsable stock?

i just got one with both both the pistol grip fullstock and the collapseable.

i have seen a quite a few with the collapsable stock at the range and i was wondering if its legal.(or are they pinned?)

gose
12-15-2006, 11:58 AM
what about the collapsable stock?
i just got one with both both the pistol grip fullstock and the collapseable.
i have seen a quite a few with the collapsable stock at the range and i was wondering if its legal.(or are they pinned?)

Shotguns
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.

So, pistolgrip + folding or telescoping stock on a shotgun == assault weapon

cseabass
12-15-2006, 12:06 PM
im aware of the laws, what i mean is, are people pinning them?

gose
12-15-2006, 12:19 PM
im aware of the laws, what i mean is, are people pinning them?

Then you know the answer ;)

Either they're pinning or committing a felony.

cseabass
12-15-2006, 3:00 PM
now, last question regarding the stock... cuz i have one(not attatched) would it be considered intent to construct even tho i wont install it. (it came with the gun, i am hoping to move out of state to NV in the next year, so i dont want to get rid of it)

rorschach
12-15-2006, 4:09 PM
AFAIK, California has no constructive possession law. I would say as long as you have a fixed stock attached, you are OK

peepshowal
12-19-2006, 2:29 PM
what about the collapsable stock?

i just got one with both both the pistol grip fullstock and the collapseable.

i have seen a quite a few with the collapsable stock at the range and i was wondering if its legal.(or are they pinned?)


There is a factory version that has the skeletonized stock that does not collapse. The recoil tube is machined so that the stock can only be attached in one position (fully extended).

Spawn_X
12-20-2006, 9:25 AM
There is a factory version that has the skeletonized stock that does not collapse. The recoil tube is machined so that the stock can only be attached in one position (fully extended).

yep, that's the m1014 Limited Edition one I believe.

Lots of Benelli owners were pissed after the fed ban expired and they found out that their Limited Editions are useless as far as being able to add the real thing

Me? I still need a +2 extension..

cseabass
12-20-2006, 10:23 AM
im gonna order the new mag tube from the guy on the benelli forums. i saw one the other day, and its VERY nice.

im also trying to get a stand off from royal arms... damn this it turning out to be hard.

Q
12-20-2006, 7:06 PM
great info on the limited edition. i have been wanting a benelli m4. i checked out a benelli m1 in 18.5 rifle sights for $900 at my local store right before the m4 was released. i've been wanting a benelli ever since. post a pic when you get it done. i think a guy on arf makes a usa full tube in aluminum or stainless it is more expensive than the dci but is looks nice.

cseabass
12-21-2006, 2:07 PM
i owned an m1s90, best shotgun ive ever owned. im hoping the m4 will take its place.

Jason_R
12-22-2006, 10:44 AM
I've never got in trouble for using my benelli m1s90 w/ pistol grip and 7 shot tube...

cseabass
12-23-2006, 11:59 AM
i just picked it up last night, i really want to take it to the range, but alas im out of cash at the moment, hopefully, next week though.

i need to pick up a glock then i can order the tube, & stand off.(im waiting for the mesa tactical rail to hit the market next month. oooh!

gose
12-23-2006, 10:19 PM
I've never got in trouble for using my benelli m1s90 w/ pistol grip and 7 shot tube...

So just because you never got caught it is legal?

PIRATE14
12-24-2006, 2:55 PM
So just because you never got caught it is legal?

NO, he just never got caught........:p

MuNgEr
12-31-2006, 10:46 PM
Im not sure how helpful this is, but for what its worth, I took my M4 with me to Whistler BC all summer (mountain biking). Before I left, I checked with both US and Canadian border service agencies, local cops and our sherif here in SD County (sounds paranoid but I had a buddy who had MAJOR issues coming back, Canada's even worse than California on restrictions). My M4, with pistol grip & collapsable stock, was thoroughly inspected (even sorta ogled) and I never had any issues. It traveled (locked) as shown in link.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8223/m42ys9.jpg

blkA4alb
12-31-2006, 10:49 PM
I hope that you are not saying that you brought the M4 into California with the collapsable stock on it.

MuNgEr
12-31-2006, 11:05 PM
Yes, and after conferring with the local authorities (prior to leaving on my trip) the only concerns anyone had was in making sure I did not have an extender tube in conjunction with the collapsable stock (which I don't). But I do have the fixed stock as well (which is how its normally stored).

blkA4alb
12-31-2006, 11:07 PM
Sigh.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.

MuNgEr
12-31-2006, 11:12 PM
Well its good to know the agencies I contacted (and who physically looked at my case) knew less about the gun laws than I did....lol.

At least the the trips over and M4 sits locked its case with its fixed stock in place:)

blkA4alb
12-31-2006, 11:16 PM
Well its good to know the agencies I contacted (and who physically looked at my case) knew less about the gun laws than I did....lol.

At least the the trips over and M4 sits locked its case with its fixed stock in place:)
And I suggest you keep it that way ;) .

Rugerman
01-04-2007, 11:47 AM
i also have another question. i just came back from a hunting trip in the desert for jack rabbits. my friend has a Remington 1100 and its reallllly nice gun. but he told me "There a california law in place that states there can be only a maximum of two shells in the mag tube and a total of three shells in the gun itself. which means its 2+1 deal. 2 in the mag and one in the chamber. He also said you need a special bright green sticker if you were going to make it so that you gun can take more shells. IS THIS TRUE?

Rugerman
01-04-2007, 12:03 PM
The Benelli M4 is decked with semi and pump actions right? and the Semi auto is legal in Kali right?

gose
01-04-2007, 12:09 PM
i also have another question. i just came back from a hunting trip in the desert for jack rabbits. my friend has a Remington 1100 and its reallllly nice gun. but he told me "There a california law in place that states there can be only a maximum of two shells in the mag tube and a total of three shells in the gun itself. which means its 2+1 deal. 2 in the mag and one in the chamber. He also said you need a special bright green sticker if you were going to make it so that you gun can take more shells. IS THIS TRUE?

Yes, and the sticker must be permanently affixed to the owner's forehead.

Josh
01-04-2007, 12:38 PM
The Benelli M4 is decked with semi and pump actions right? and the Semi auto is legal in Kali right?

its only a semi.

krby
01-04-2007, 1:30 PM
The M3 is Benelli's switchable pump/semi-auto gun. The M4 is an a semi-auto only.

cseabass
01-04-2007, 5:06 PM
the m3 is inertia/pump driven. the m4 uses gas pistons.

megavolt121
01-04-2007, 5:39 PM
the m3 is inertia/pump driven. the m4 uses gas pistons.

Cseabass is right... but to go further:

M3: Inertia driven with a pump "backup". This is ideal for law enforcement as they might sometimes be shooting non lethal loads. Due to the nature of non lethal loads, you can't always guarntee it will have enough interia to cycle the shotgun, hence the pump backup.

cseabass
01-04-2007, 7:40 PM
Cseabass is right... but to go further:

M3: Inertia driven with a pump "backup". This is ideal for law enforcement as they might sometimes be shooting non lethal loads. Due to the nature of non lethal loads, you can't always guarntee it will have enough interia to cycle the shotgun, hence the pump backup.


Ed Zakery!

i prefer the m1, but ill pick up an m3 later this year... i still need to take my m4 out(i think im gonna take it to target masters today or tomorrow.)

kpblade
01-04-2007, 8:18 PM
i also have another question. i just came back from a hunting trip in the desert for jack rabbits. my friend has a Remington 1100 and its reallllly nice gun. but he told me "There a california law in place that states there can be only a maximum of two shells in the mag tube and a total of three shells in the gun itself. which means its 2+1 deal. 2 in the mag and one in the chamber. He also said you need a special bright green sticker if you were going to make it so that you gun can take more shells. IS THIS TRUE?

I'm pretty sure that is correct with regards to hunting. If you are hunting game, your shotgun must have its magazine limited to 2 shells. I'm not sure about the sticker.

Rugerman
01-05-2007, 3:11 PM
so if i used the benelli M4 for hunting i could only have 2 shells in the tube and one in the chamber.

EDIT: I decided that 'm going and getting my M4 from Impact Guns. I'm planning to buy the one-piece mag tube from the guy on the Benelli Forums. NOW,

#1. Since the mag tube is one piece i just need to change 2 other components on the gun, right?
#2. What did you other M4 owners change?
#3. Will the Surefire Lighted Forearm thats rated for the Super 90 fit the M4?

MuNgEr
01-06-2007, 11:51 AM
If your looking for a railed (quad) forearm for the M4, Surefire's current offerings will not work on the M4 (I just got off the phone with them looking for the same). However, they are working on one specifically for the M4 (as is Mesa Tactical). Surefire said they will have one to market by summer, & Mesa said they are still working out details with Benelli (who may be selling Mesa's FCAM).

As for the extension tubes, I didn't change mine because I got so many mixed opinions on that I decided to error on the side of caution (Kept it stock). I'm sure someone here can give better advice as to what's OK on the M4:)

cseabass
01-06-2007, 12:06 PM
i just sent socomguy(the full length us made tubes) an email for one, if hes still around.

and the FCAM is the apple of my eye right now, i NEEEEEEED one.

kpblade
01-07-2007, 1:51 PM
so if i used the benelli M4 for hunting i could only have 2 shells in the tube and one in the chamber.

EDIT: I decided that 'm going and getting my M4 from Impact Guns. I'm planning to buy the one-piece mag tube from the guy on the Benelli Forums. NOW,

#1. Since the mag tube is one piece i just need to change 2 other components on the gun, right?
#2. What did you other M4 owners change?
#3. Will the Surefire Lighted Forearm thats rated for the Super 90 fit the M4?


While acutally hunting you need to have the magazine LIMITED to only accept 2 live rounds. DFG will occasionally do field checks and to spot check. Some maunfactureres supply a rod that fits inside the mag spring to limit how many you can load. Some have used "dummy cases" loaded before the 2 live rounds, to live up to the spirit of the law.

MuNgEr
01-08-2007, 4:03 PM
i just sent socomguy(the full length us made tubes) an email for one, if hes still around.

and the FCAM is the apple of my eye right now, i NEEEEEEED one.

cseabass whats the low down on the legality of those tubes for us in CA? I got so many mixed messages I'm lost (In fact, everyone was much more concerned with the tubes than a collapsable stock......which I now have clarity on:). If its all good, then I'm shooting a PM to SOCOM guy as well!

cseabass
01-08-2007, 4:57 PM
as i understand it, its perfectly legal. its not over the 10 rnd limit(should be 8 with the gun ghost loaded) and its not a problem with 922 compliance as its a US made part replacing the foreign tube.


one thing you may want to look into though munger is your question about the FCAM on B-forums. im not sure if that would be legal, with the VFG. even with the injury

thekwyjibo
01-08-2007, 6:30 PM
as i understand it, its perfectly legal. its not over the 10 rnd limit(should be 8 with the gun ghost loaded) and its not a problem with 922 compliance as its a US made part replacing the foreign tube.


one thing you may want to look into though munger is your question about the FCAM on B-forums. im not sure if that would be legal, with the VFG. even with the injury


Nothing personal, however that statement is partially wrong, It is very important that this is very clear, so as to prevent any run-ins with the police.
There are 2 laws to take into consideration; 1) the assault weapons ban, which is the California law, 2) 922r, a federal import ban (I believe it is US18c 922r to be specific). The Cal assault weapons ban is satisfied by these design changes as stated(unless you do something else like place the collapsing stock on the gun)
The federal 922r import law is NOT satisfied by simply replacing the magazine tube with a domestic manufacture, you have to ALSO get the parts count down to a total of 10 of the listed parts. The m4 with a fixed pistol grip synthetic stock has 13 parts (per the current DOJ count, check my earlier post on this). you have to cut a total of 3 parts off.

Replacing the tube with the full length tube (1 part)
Replacing the plastic follower (1 part)
Replacing the forend (1 part)
Total of 13 parts - the 3 above parts = 10 parts == 922r compliant

It doesn't necessarily have to be these exact parts, but 3 parts on the list have to be replaced to have 922r compliance.
This is not simply my opinion, this is per the memo that the DOJ has sent out. If you write to them they will give you a copy of it as well.

I know how idiotic that this may sound but this is what happens with bureaucrats and legislatures pass laws about technology they know almost nothing about and trying to placate the great unwashed (as in us) after they have panicked everyone and pushed themselves into a corner to come up with a solution to a problem that they have blown out of proportion to get elected.

cseabass
01-08-2007, 7:23 PM
thank you for correcting me.


1. Receiver/frame
2. Barrel
3. Bolt
4. Bolt carrier
5. Trigger housing
6. Trigger
7. Disconnector
8. Hammer
9. Buttstock
10. Pistol grip
11. Forearm/handguard
12. Magazine body
13. Follower


is a list of the parts.(correct?)

what would people say to getting some US made parts? maybe hammer, disconnector, and trigger? combined with the mag body and follower, wouldnt that make it compliant with 922 and allow the use of a tele-stock(not in ca) legally?


ETA: it looks like the disconnector is part of the trigger, or, is the silver catch behind the hammer?(i cant find my parts list right now)

gose
01-08-2007, 9:01 PM
Or you could just go back a few pages in this thread, since all this has been answered at least once in this thread :P

cseabass
01-09-2007, 9:47 AM
ok, is there any intrest in some us made parts, like say a hammer, disconnector and trigger?

those in conjunction with the US made mag tube and follower should allow poeple to run both the extension and collapseable stock(once again not in ca) under 922 correct?

realisticly what would people pay for them?

gose
01-09-2007, 10:04 AM
ok, is there any intrest in some us made parts, like say a hammer, disconnector and trigger?
those in conjunction with the US made mag tube and follower should allow poeple to run both the extension and collapseable stock(once again not in ca) under 922 correct?
realisticly what would people pay for them?

Benelli hammers and triggers are around $30, so I would guess not a lot more than that. Maybe $50 each? For a $1000+ shotgun I'd happily pay another $100 to be able to use a mag extension. If it's $200, probably not, but I'm sure there are Benelli aficionados that would pay more to be in compliance.

Also, Im not sure how big the market really is, since most people have no idea that they're breaking federal law by using that mag extension.

cseabass
01-09-2007, 10:08 AM
realisticly i would only need to make both the hammer and the trigger to be 922(with us mag tube and follower) to be compliant with the collapsable?

im thinkin about making a run(im going to make ones for me for sure)... think they would sell? maybe around 75 for both?(i would need to check my prices first of course)

gose
01-09-2007, 10:13 AM
realisticly i would only need to make both the hammer and the trigger to be 922(with us mag tube and follower) to be compliant with the collapsable?

im thinkin about making a run(im going to make ones for me for sure)... think they would sell? maybe around 75 for both?(i would need to check my prices first of course)

I'd buy a pair for $75.

What you could try though is to buy a bunch of extensions and followers and sell it as a compliance package. Now that would be a unique offering, but I'm sure you would sell quite a few triggers and hammers if you can keep it under $100 :)

cseabass
01-09-2007, 10:18 AM
my problem is i am neither a machinist nor an engineer. so, while i know how to blueprint(gotta love the stuff in highschool i picked up) i dont know if i really want to take on a huge thing

cseabass
01-09-2007, 10:18 AM
oh one more thing, anyone have an 870 and an m4? will an 870 follower fit?

MuNgEr
01-09-2007, 10:35 AM
I like the idea of a compliance kit:)

cseabass
01-09-2007, 10:39 AM
well right now im lookin into the hammer and trigger, a compliance kit may follow. im gonna price some stuff though.

i just placed some calls with a few friends who are MEs. they said they will gladly help out... so...

peepshowal
01-09-2007, 10:51 AM
realisticly i would only need to make both the hammer and the trigger to be 922(with us mag tube and follower) to be compliant with the collapsable?

im thinkin about making a run(im going to make ones for me for sure)... think they would sell? maybe around 75 for both?(i would need to check my prices first of course)

I'm interested in any additional M4/M1014 compliance parts. Wish socomguy on benelli forum would make the gas pistons he has mentioned, but not sure he is going to. Thanks for keeping us updated on any progress you make.

thekwyjibo
01-09-2007, 5:48 PM
thank you for correcting me.


1. Receiver/frame
2. Barrel
3. Bolt
4. Bolt carrier
5. Trigger housing
6. Trigger
7. Disconnector
8. Hammer
9. Buttstock
10. Pistol grip
11. Forearm/handguard
12. Magazine body
13. Follower


is a list of the parts.(correct?)

what would people say to getting some US made parts? maybe hammer, disconnector, and trigger? combined with the mag body and follower, wouldnt that make it compliant with 922 and allow the use of a tele-stock(not in ca) legally?


ETA: it looks like the disconnector is part of the trigger, or, is the silver catch behind the hammer?(i cant find my parts list right now)

Not a problem, I just don't want anyone running afoul of the law.
I believe that is correct, yes. If you go with the tele-stock then the list becomes 14 (as the pistol grip is no a separate part). On the M4 I believe that the disconnecter is a separate piece, but I would also have to look over he diagrams to verify.

thekwyjibo
01-09-2007, 5:52 PM
realisticly i would only need to make both the hammer and the trigger to be 922(with us mag tube and follower) to be compliant with the collapsable?

im thinkin about making a run(im going to make ones for me for sure)... think they would sell? maybe around 75 for both?(i would need to check my prices first of course)

I can almost guarantee they would sell. There are so many people that are trying to get a legal extended magazine tube on the gun right now (not just in California) that they would jump on this in all honesty.

I would buy a set, even for more then 75.
might even see if I can get a collapsing stock and pin and weld it so that it became fixed if I could get the parts count low enough to do so.

cseabass
01-09-2007, 8:58 PM
maybe a new stock button that wouldnt allow it to be moved... sort of a set it in its place type of thingy.

MuNgEr
01-10-2007, 8:47 AM
cseabass,

Please finish and ship all this before FTA's Gunsite 260 class in March!





IM JUST KIDDING:)

SunriseF150
01-10-2007, 8:59 AM
Ok so honestly how are they to know if you don't have a US made mag tube? The obe that the guy on AR15.com is selling compared to a benelli one? Just wondering.

I have a full length mag tube that i just got (need to check if it is benelli or US made). So in order to put it on and make it compliant i need a US follower and another US part? If the tube is a benelli tube then I need a US follower and 2 other US parts?

cseabass
01-10-2007, 9:23 AM
the benelli tubes look like **** IMO... tooling marks and the finish isnt what i would like(yes i have seen/handled about 15 tubes)

Joes are super nice. very clean good work.(i have seen them) i dont own one personally cuz i just got my m4 last month.(it fell into my lap... traded a S&W m&p15 for a brand new m4, and collapsable stock)

i havent gotten one from joe cuz i had an ID theft issue and im workin out of a bank account that doesnt have a card. plus i have to be fairly cautious with my funds as i may wind up oweing my bank a bunch of money, even though i never made any charges... (what a load of horse ****)

cseabass
01-10-2007, 9:28 AM
cseabass,

Please finish and ship all this before FTA's Gunsite 260 class in March!





IM JUST KIDDING:)


well if things get moving i would like to have a batch for testing in a month or so.

i need to sell my eotech to get the funds for a few prototypes.

SunriseF150
01-10-2007, 10:07 AM
ok but is there any way for them to know it's not a US made one like SocomGuy is making/selling?

cseabass
01-10-2007, 10:24 AM
aside from it not lookin like a benelli tube, i didnt see any stamping.

the finish is different and the tooling is a LOT better IMO.

thekwyjibo
01-10-2007, 6:25 PM
Ok so honestly how are they to know if you don't have a US made mag tube? The obe that the guy on AR15.com is selling compared to a benelli one? Just wondering.

I have a full length mag tube that i just got (need to check if it is benelli or US made). So in order to put it on and make it compliant i need a US follower and another US part? If the tube is a benelli tube then I need a US follower and 2 other US parts?

Not sure if you are mixing up a magazine extension from a magazine tube or not, if you are potentially mixing the two up then it is probably the extension (which is about 6-7" in length). The extension screws onto the end of the current magazine tube, replacing the ribbed limiter that is there by default. This does not count for any parts, this is because there is still some of the magazine tube that is 'imported'.
The a full length tube I am referring to requires one to completely remove the old partial length tube (which is not an easy task due to red loc-tite). The full length tube then is screwed in to the receiver to replace the partial.

SunriseF150
01-11-2007, 7:52 AM
Yes I have a full lenth replacement tube. And yes it's going to be a ***** to remove, I already tried. Need to use a barrel vise and my heat gun.

peepshowal
01-11-2007, 8:40 AM
aside from it not lookin like a benelli tube, i didnt see any stamping.

the finish is different and the tooling is a LOT better IMO.

The tubes from socomguy are stamped US on the flange at the end that screws into the receiver so the hand guards cover it. It is small but definitely there.

cseabass
01-11-2007, 9:52 AM
cool, thanks for pointing that out, i never noticed.

MuNgEr
01-11-2007, 11:01 AM
cseabass

Hey do think the colapsable stock could be "fixed" with something like a DT pin placed through a drilled hole in the receiver extension tube (if thats what its called on the M4), or does "Fixed" mean something like the AR's magazine requirement (has to require a tool) or must it be permanent? Do you think that might weaken the receiver extension tube to drill through it to put either a DT ro a nut and bolt config?

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6348/dtpms0.gif

Just thinking of options for your parts:)

cseabass
01-11-2007, 11:26 AM
i have a couple ideas, the problem is, technicly to pin the stock(the way i have been thinkin about you need it to be) it will be an AW for about 30 seconds:/

i have another idea but im gonna concentrate on the other parts first.

i have an idea for a completly new button design also.

duenor
06-06-2007, 8:43 PM
well, i think i am about to make my gun 922R legal. (havent done it yet, just buying parts)

to deal with the 13 parts I am replacing:

the buttstock with a Speedfeed VI pistol grip stock (usa). its not perfect but ok
the magazine with a choate +4
the foreend with a surefire

how does that sound?

kpblade
06-07-2007, 12:10 PM
well, i think i am about to make my gun 922R legal. (havent done it yet, just buying parts)

to deal with the 13 parts I am replacing:

the buttstock with a Speedfeed VI pistol grip stock (usa). its not perfect but ok
the magazine with a choate +4
the foreend with a surefire

how does that sound?

You could use Vang Comps 12 gauge follower as one of the 3 replacements parts. Its about $15.

gose
06-07-2007, 12:19 PM
well, i think i am about to make my gun 922R legal. (havent done it yet, just buying parts)
to deal with the 13 parts I am replacing:
the buttstock with a Speedfeed VI pistol grip stock (usa). its not perfect but ok
the magazine with a choate +4
the foreend with a surefire
how does that sound?

Illegal ;)

Or is the Choate +4 replacing the whole tube? If you just replace the extension (or add a US extension) it wont count as a part. You have to replace the whole tube.

If you're getting the stock and the forearm, replacing the follower would be enough, meaning you could even go with a Benelli +4 extension and stay legal.

peepshowal
06-07-2007, 2:46 PM
realisticly i would only need to make both the hammer and the trigger to be 922(with us mag tube and follower) to be compliant with the collapsable?

im thinkin about making a run(im going to make ones for me for sure)... think they would sell? maybe around 75 for both?(i would need to check my prices first of course)

cseabass, any update on this?

cseabass
06-07-2007, 2:51 PM
its pretty much dead.

i dont have the funds for an inital run, though i do have people to make them.

also there is a guy on the benelli usa forums making them now.

peepshowal
06-07-2007, 3:01 PM
there is a guy on the benelli usa forums making them now.

Thanks, I'll check over there.