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oaklander
04-07-2011, 11:44 AM
The USFS/BLM "issue" involving apparent harassment of law-abiding gun owners appears to be MUCH more widespread than some of us thought.

I have spoken with people who have inside knowledge and they tell me that it is happening in both SoCal and NorCal, both on USFS and BLM land.

Since there are so many government employees who are involved in this matter, it will be basically impossible to determine the extent of this issue without mapping it out to see exactly WHERE it is occurring, and WHO in USFS/BLM management may be at fault.

Therefore, if you have had any negative interactions with "federal law enforcement" on any public property, please fill out this confidential form

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=dEttTGMtNnA3UTdUVnBEZF9ja2RnZEE6MQ#gid=0

This information will be used in four ways:

1) I am going to work with a GIS expert and "map out" where the problems seem to be occurring.

2) I am going to work with our team and contact the person(s) in charge and educate them on the law.

3) If #2 above does not work, I am going to elevate this to a "political issue."

4) If #3 does not work, I am going to elevate this to a "legal issue."

As you can tell, this bothers me on a personal level. We have worked long and hard to get CA LE on board with what we are doing. That effort goes to waste if federal LE is not also on board with the law here.

JDoe
04-07-2011, 12:09 PM
Looks good, is there a form we can print out that we can use in the field as these events take place?

It might be useful to fill out the form while the employee/officer/ranger is still around to provide details like name, badge number, etc.

cindynles
04-07-2011, 12:09 PM
Form filled out...

oaklander
04-07-2011, 12:11 PM
Yes - I think that one will print right off the webpage - if it's too dark - I can change the formatting. . .

Looks good, is there a form we can print out that we can use in the field as these events take place?

It might be useful to fill out the form while the employee/officer/ranger is still around to provide details like name, badge number, etc.

chip3757
04-07-2011, 12:20 PM
Sticky???

Or where can find this 2-3 months from now?

oaklander
04-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Yes - once the thread slows down a bit - we can politely ask Kes to sticky it. I would also ask that we totally cross post either this thread, or the form itself.

What you can also do is to bookmark it.

Worse comes to worse - I'll register a domain.

Sticky???

Or where can find this 2-3 months from now?

CHS
04-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Subscribed and bumped!

Purple K
04-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Calguns=action!

Soldier415
04-07-2011, 12:25 PM
SUbscribed. Oaklander, always fighting the good fight.

Chester
04-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Sent mine in.

Sorry, I didn't get a name or badge number.

Was me and my friends' first time ever shooting in BLM and I get lectured on an empty freaking mag well and making it seem like I was lucky he wasn't going to arrest me for it.

cmichini
04-07-2011, 12:41 PM
I'd suggest anyone that shoots on Fed land keep a couple of pre-printed forms in their shooting kit.

In the event of a negative event (or even any event/interaction), they can note date, time, log activities events realt-time, ensure they get badge #, offending officer's vehicle # and plate, name, description, tonnage, etc.

It's hard to remember things after they happen, so having a formatted form to start to fill in will not only afford them the opportunity to make specific notes in the moment, but provide reminders of what additional details they should/could document while the opportunity is theirs.

Glad to hear this is happening.

Edit: In the event of a positive interaction, it'll also be good to document that so 1) the service is getting a variety of interaction reports to document the status good/bad, and 2) provide an atta boy/girl to any officer that is operating within the confines of their jurisdiction, and regulations.

G1500
04-07-2011, 12:42 PM
Was me and my friends' first time ever shooting in BLM and I get lectured on an empty freaking mag well and making it seem like I was lucky he wasn't going to arrest me for it.

<sarcasm>

WOW! That is lucky!

</sarcasm>



This thread makes me want to go out and shoot on some BLM land.

Thanks Oak for setting this up.

Which Way Out
04-07-2011, 12:48 PM
Printed well and now tucked away in rifle case.
Tnx for your hard work. I just hope I never need to send it in.

oaklander
04-07-2011, 12:53 PM
It's possible that the mere fact that we are doing this will have results, once the right people find out. . .

:D

Public lands are funded by public money. Budgets are set by politicians. Many of these politicians are our friends, if you get my drift.

Printed well and now tucked away in rifle case.
Tnx for your hard work. I just hope I never need to send it in.

WatchMan
04-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Printed - hats off to ya Oaklander. This is the only way we will win....grassroots baby!!

D-Man
04-07-2011, 1:22 PM
Posted on the form as requested.

goober
04-07-2011, 1:28 PM
Nice work, Oak! :D

oaklander
04-07-2011, 1:30 PM
Thanks! Coming from you (because of what you do IRL) this is a big compliment!!!

Nice work, Oak! :D

highpowermatch
04-07-2011, 1:33 PM
Will have a blank form when shooting at BLM, thanks Oak!

Rock6.3
04-07-2011, 1:48 PM
Form printed for storage inside my rifle case.

stix213
04-07-2011, 1:50 PM
Shooting at NF land this weekend. Will definitely be posting if I run into "hassles"

oaklander
04-07-2011, 3:32 PM
I am in communication with various stakeholders at this point. I can tell folks that this is a "known problem," and is of deep concern not just to me, but to the many other people who have knowledge of the situation.

wash
04-07-2011, 3:43 PM
The complaint form idea is brilliant, a place for people to capture the who, what, when and where before it fades from memory.

Interfacing with GIS software is great also.

Maybe we should have a gun shop FUD complaint form so that we can map bad FFLs?

It wouldn't lead to a lawsuit but change without lawsuits is the idea so it might work.

Also, you mentioned a domain name. How about a smart phone app?

Stainned
04-07-2011, 3:50 PM
Thanks Oak.

Patriot Man
04-07-2011, 4:12 PM
Is this harassment simply attempts to scare gun owners? I will print the form. Great idea Oaklander! Will take to ranges as well. ;)

BearWhoHunts
04-07-2011, 4:32 PM
Thanks Oak. I have printed out a bunch and are handing them out to friends and family. I have had some good and some bad! I would like to hold them accountable for both!

Great work!

goober
04-07-2011, 6:17 PM
Thanks! Coming from you (because of what you do IRL) this is a big compliment!!!

Any perceived compliment was both intended and well deserved...
Talk to me about the GIS aspect of this if you need help :)

Helpful_Cub
04-07-2011, 6:26 PM
How bad is bad? I've been questioned by USFS, he wanted to see my lead-free ammo in my rifle and handgun. He didn't seem interested in anything else, is that a don't care?

oaklander
04-07-2011, 7:13 PM
If it's legitimate, that's fine. This was probably legit. . .

What concerns me (and others) is people going around telling people that they can't use hi-caps in featureless rifles (or RAWs), or that their legal semi-automatic rifles are AWs. Even once is too much - but a pattern is becoming apparent.

There are about 15 people on this end involved right now. It does not make sense to tell folks who they are right now, BUT:

As an aside - I can tell you that the "gun rights groups" that we all know and love - actually do really kick some booty on this kind of stuff. The perception that the larger gun rights groups "don't care" is totally bogus.

:D

They are as "hard core" as Calgunners are - just maybe a little more reserved, and work more on the back-end, unseen - like civil rights ninjas!!!!!

LOL

How bad is bad? I've been questioned by USFS, he wanted to see my lead-free ammo in my rifle and handgun. He didn't seem interested in anything else, is that a don't care?

oaklander
04-07-2011, 7:16 PM
Thanks P - you are a ninja too!!!

Any perceived compliment was both intended and well deserved...
Talk to me about the GIS aspect of this if you need help :)

mag360
04-07-2011, 7:23 PM
How bad is bad? I've been questioned by USFS, he wanted to see my lead-free ammo in my rifle and handgun. He didn't seem interested in anything else, is that a don't care?

As long as it didn't go any further than that, i.e., ONLY verifying ammunition, and you were in a lead restricted area, then this seems OK to me.

Sailormilan2
04-07-2011, 7:23 PM
As a retired LEO, I have never, NEVER heard of any cop letting someone go, who(whom?) they "Know" is committing a felony!
Most cops do everything in their power to arrest for felonies, not warn and let go.

Dreaded Claymore
04-07-2011, 7:32 PM
Oaklander and other lawyers + GIS expertise + our team of the "Right People" + making this a "legal issue" = M-M-M-MONSTER KILL

emcon5
04-07-2011, 9:33 PM
And what you just said has absolutely nothing to do with law-abiding gun owners, using legal guns, in a properly designated portion of public land.

Please do not confuse the issues here.

I don't think that is what he was saying, at all.

He was referring to comments like those from "Twystd1" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6156564&postcount=10) and "chester" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6156602&postcount=12) where police claim they could arrest you for a felony (possession of an assault weapon, etc) then don't.

What he is saying is that if they really believed it was a felony, they would arrest you. In other words, they are either aware there is no crime, or at bare minimum are aware that they have no idea what is illegal and what isn't.

G1500
04-07-2011, 9:42 PM
I don't think that is what he was saying, at all.

He was referring to comments like those from "Twystd1" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6156564&postcount=10) and "chester" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6156602&postcount=12) where police claim they could arrest you for a felony (possession of an assault weapon, etc) then don't.

What he is saying is that if they really believed it was a felony, they would arrest you. In other words, they are either aware there is no crime, or at bare minimum are aware that they have no idea what is illegal and what isn't.

Agreed, no LEO I know of would let you off on multiple felony charges IF you were legitimately committing felonies.

Letting you off with a warning for speeding or not wearing your seatbelt is one thing, but having AWs is different.

greasemonkey
04-07-2011, 9:48 PM
Oak you're just trying to get us to go out to BLM land more often aren't you?! Haha, this thread is posted to the Calguns Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Calgunsnet/230301820181).

MudCamper
04-07-2011, 10:17 PM
Cool. I will link back to here from the Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread.

A printer friendly PDF version of your form would be nice. I can adapt one if you like.

I will definitely add this to my pile of legal paperwork I carry with me in the BLM and NF. Although I've never had any trouble myself, but that may be because I get far enough out into the boonies that I don't encounter LEO while shooting. One time I know the rangers were looking for my group but couldn't find us. They got as close as my bother and a bunch of his biker friends camped one ridge over from us, and asked them if they knew who was shooting and where. The ranger described the sound of our shooting as "automatic fire", which of course was incorrect, but funny.

oaklander
04-07-2011, 10:31 PM
Cool!

Cool. I will link back to here from the Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread.

A printer friendly PDF version of your form would be nice. I can adapt one if you like.

I will definitely add this to my pile of legal paperwork I carry with me in the BLM and NF. Although I've never had any trouble myself, but that may be because I get far enough out into the boonies that I don't encounter LEO while shooting. One time I know the rangers were looking for my group but couldn't find us. They got as close as my bother and a bunch of his biker friends camped one ridge over from us, and asked them if they knew who was shooting and where. The ranger described the sound of our shooting as "automatic fire", which of course was incorrect, but funny.

oaklander
04-07-2011, 10:32 PM
Ah - OK - I will delete my post.

I don't think that is what he was saying, at all.

He was referring to comments like those from "Twystd1" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6156564&postcount=10) and "chester" (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6156602&postcount=12) where police claim they could arrest you for a felony (possession of an assault weapon, etc) then don't.

What he is saying is that if they really believed it was a felony, they would arrest you. In other words, they are either aware there is no crime, or at bare minimum are aware that they have no idea what is illegal and what isn't.

hornswaggled
04-07-2011, 11:04 PM
Thank you again Calguns. Once again this grassroots effort is keeping LE honest when no one else will. I don't believe for one moment this is a training issue with a few rogue officers not understanding the law. These LEOs know exactly what they are doing in harassing law-abiding citizens with legal firearms, and making threats of arrest when none is warranted. And their bosses know of and approve what they are doing. This stinks from the bottom all the way to the top, and that smell is people who hate America, who hate our Constitution, and hate anyone who exercises his/her RKBA.

Dave A
04-07-2011, 11:54 PM
This problem is not confined to BLM or Forest Service land. My Brother who lives further north in California told me this evening that Game Wardens are becoming a real pain in the posterior, even on private property. We are talking about Siskiyou county clear up by the Oregon line where hunting is a tradition. The harrassment by game wardens has gotten so bad that they are often referred to as Nazi's and what used to be an OK relationship has become very strained.

They come onto private ranch land and look for any minor infraction when people are hunting ground squirrels that damage the ranchers fields. One guy was talked to because his rifle was leaning up against the PU door with the butt on the ground and he was sitting on the tailgate. Apparently you cannot shoot out of a moving or parked vehicle even at non game critters and the warden said he could have reached his rifle from where he was sitting, which was total BS.

The locals are convinced that the dept of Fish and Game really wants to stop all hunting and try to intimidate younsters into not becoming hunters, which is probably the best way to eliminate it.

Jel
04-08-2011, 12:05 AM
Oaklander, thank you so much for doing this. I'm going to print multiple forms and always have them handy.

MP301
04-08-2011, 6:36 AM
Hey Oak, your not going to leave CA Fish and game out of the festivities, are you? Watching the FUD from their reality show, Im certain they are In serious need of some additional "Insight" on firearms laws.

Sawdust
04-08-2011, 7:00 AM
Nice form.

Print a couple and take them with you on your next shooting sojourn on public lands.

And if you get harassed, whip the form out and start filling it in with the harasser present, telling him/her you're gonna need some information! :43:

Sawdust

MudCamper
04-08-2011, 11:26 AM
Here is a first draft of a printer-friendly PDF version that I created:

Edit: URL changed to obeygiant's fillable PDF (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=93345&d=1302389416).

Oaklander, do you want me to leave your contact info on there or remove it?

1BigPea
04-08-2011, 11:43 AM
Here is a first draft of a printer-friendly PDF version that I created:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form (http://www.paul.net/guns/USFS_BLM_Incident_Report_Form.pdf)

Oaklander, do you want me to leave your contact info on there or remove it?

Nice!

Headed up to BLM land to go shooting this weekend. This will be a nice addition to everything else I carry with me in case of contact.

CHS
04-08-2011, 11:51 AM
Here is a first draft of a printer-friendly PDF version that I created:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form (http://www.paul.net/guns/USFS_BLM_Incident_Report_Form.pdf)


I would make one change.

Make it an actual fillable form, so that people can edit it on their computers, smart phones, tablets, etc. You wouldn't change anything else, so that it can still be printed for people who want to bring hard copy with them and pen/pencil it. But my tablet, phone, and nook color all have PDF form support, and I keep a lot of legal reference material on my Nook Color. :)

Southwest Chuck
04-08-2011, 12:08 PM
Here is a first draft of a printer-friendly PDF version that I created:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form (http://www.paul.net/guns/USFS_BLM_Incident_Report_Form.pdf)

Oaklander, do you want me to leave your contact info on there or remove it?

If I may, I would suggest changing the title to:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form . Type of Contact: negative / positive (circle one)

I think it would go along way in reinforcing positive feed-back for the Rangers and that we DO appreciate the ones who are knowledgeable and respect our rights :thumbsup:

goober
04-08-2011, 12:16 PM
If I may, I would suggest changing the title to:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form . Type of Contact: negative / positive (circle one)

I think it would go along way in reinforcing positive feed-back for the Rangers and that we DO appreciate the ones who are knowledgeable and respect our rights :thumbsup:

agree

MudCamper
04-08-2011, 12:18 PM
I would make one change.

Make it an actual fillable form, so that people can edit it on their computers, smart phones, tablets, etc. You wouldn't change anything else, so that it can still be printed for people who want to bring hard copy with them and pen/pencil it. But my tablet, phone, and nook color all have PDF form support, and I keep a lot of legal reference material on my Nook Color. :)

And then you could have it sync up with Oaklander's database when you get back into cell range. ;) But seriously, I don't even have PDF authoring tools that can create a fillable PDF...

If I may, I would suggest changing the title to:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form . Type of Contact: negative / positive (circle one)

I think it would go along way in reinforcing positive feed-back for the Rangers and that we DO appreciate the ones who are knowledgeable and respect our rights :thumbsup:

That's a good idea, but let's run it past Oaklander. He's the author. I just wanted a "field" version of the online form.

DisgruntledReaper
04-08-2011, 12:23 PM
printed,subscribed and THANK YOU SIR!!!!!!!!!!!!! going to be copying this sheet and keep with me 'just in case' for next time in the desert and stuff........

Southwest Chuck
04-08-2011, 12:25 PM
That's a good idea, but let's run it past Oaklander. He's the author. I just wanted a "field" version of the online form.

Totally agree.

SierraApril
04-08-2011, 12:32 PM
Oak is focused on his day job, but he wanted me to let you know that it's fine to leave his email address on the form.

I love it when CGN'ers sink their teeth into an issue!


Here is a first draft of a printer-friendly PDF version that I created:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form (http://www.paul.net/guns/USFS_BLM_Incident_Report_Form.pdf)

Oaklander, do you want me to leave your contact info on there or remove it?

oaklander
04-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Yes - thanks hon!

Totally buried - also doing a little behind the scenes on this issue. If you don't see me in this thread for a day or so - it's not because I've dropped the issue - it's because I'm buried in the issue. This appears to be a larger problem than we thought - and there IS an initial "fix" in the works!!!

Details to come!

Oak is focused on his day job, but he wanted me to let you know that it's fine to leave his email address on the form.

I love it when CGN'ers sink their teeth into an issue!

Alaric
04-08-2011, 12:47 PM
Submitted an entry on the FUD-based closure of the Orosco Ridge Shooting Area.

Thanks for getting this organized Oak!

JRob
04-08-2011, 12:52 PM
EXCELLENT pro-active effort! CalGuns can root out the goblins wherever they are

advocatusdiaboli
04-08-2011, 12:58 PM
As a retired LEO, I have never, NEVER heard of any cop letting someone go, who(whom?) they "Know" is committing a felony!
Most cops do everything in their power to arrest for felonies, not warn and let go.

Yep. These officers were unsure of the status of the situation and so opted to intimidate rather than act and go on record for being wrong—maybe suffer punitive action or at least embarrassing remedial training. Authoritarian personalities (not painting all LEOs as such—just these amateurs) have a difficult time with not knowing something and having it known publicly (it hurts their ego) so they'll engage in complex rationalizations and machinations to the feeling of inadequacy it brings on. Intimidation is their easy way out—silences the witness and makes them feel powerful again.

cmichini
04-08-2011, 1:06 PM
I'm waiting for someone to post video of a DFS, DFG, or other neo-fascist starting out on the offensive to 'root' out evildoers who are actually legal, only to go into stammering, backpedaling, WTF mode when the situation turns on them and someone is gathering information on THEM to start an investigation. :rofl2:

Maybe people can print up some 'OWNED' stickers to give to the goblin at the end of the encounter. Kind of like a lollipop to a kid leaving the doctor's office.

DougJ
04-08-2011, 1:10 PM
Great work Oaklander! Thanks Mudcamper for the PDF, that goes in the case along with the flowchart and everything else.

Southwest Chuck
04-08-2011, 1:14 PM
Authoritarian personalities (not painting all LEOs as such—just these amateurs) have a difficult time with not knowing something and having it known publicly (it hurts their ego) so they'll engage in complex rationalizations and machinations to the feeling of inadequacy it brings on. Intimidation is their easy way out—silences the witness and makes them feel powerful again.

This is a very accurate, succinct statement, IMO, and is spot-on. They are found in every profession

oaklander
04-08-2011, 10:20 PM
Thank you! And also thanks to all who are involved in "fixing" this. The people here on the back end are working on something too. Everyone - please "bookmark" this thread - there WILL be some action on this - and I think you all will be pleased and impressed, both with the action - and the results.

Timeline might be not as fast as we would like - but it will be worth the wait. . .

:D

ALSO - this whole thing is a PRIME example of totally awesome true grassroots in action!!!! Without Calguns, this would never have gotten fixed - like IT WILL BE!!!


Great work Oaklander! Thanks Mudcamper for the PDF, that goes in the case along with the flowchart and everything else.

Agent Akin
04-09-2011, 2:39 AM
Timeline might be not as fast as we would like - but it will be worth the wait. . .

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here, and guess that it'll be about two weeks?

Digital_Boy
04-09-2011, 4:18 AM
I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here, and guess that it'll be about two weeks?

http://www.awesometoast.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/tactical_facepalm.jpg

obeygiant
04-09-2011, 10:30 AM
Here is a first draft of a printer-friendly PDF version that I created:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form (http://www.paul.net/guns/USFS_BLM_Incident_Report_Form.pdf)

Oaklander, do you want me to leave your contact info on there or remove it?

I would make one change.

Make it an actual fillable form, so that people can edit it on their computers, smart phones, tablets, etc. You wouldn't change anything else, so that it can still be printed for people who want to bring hard copy with them and pen/pencil it. But my tablet, phone, and nook color all have PDF form support, and I keep a lot of legal reference material on my Nook Color. :)

If I may, I would suggest changing the title to:

USFS/BLM Incident Report Form . Type of Contact: negative / positive (circle one)

I think it would go along way in reinforcing positive feed-back for the Rangers and that we DO appreciate the ones who are knowledgeable and respect our rights :thumbsup:

And then you could have it sync up with Oaklander's database when you get back into cell range. ;) But seriously, I don't even have PDF authoring tools that can create a fillable PDF...



That's a good idea, but let's run it past Oaklander. He's the author. I just wanted a "field" version of the online form.

Working on the fill-able form now, I should have it done in the next 30 min or so.

ETA:

Perhaps we should consider adding the logos to this form as well, with permission of course.

cdtx2001
04-09-2011, 10:38 AM
I had an issue at the beginning of the year with a South Sacramento CHP Sergent telling me that possession of hi-cap mags was a felony as well as possession of an AR15. I sent the info to Gene or Bill (can't remember) and I think they straightened him out.

obeygiant
04-09-2011, 10:45 AM
Incident Reporting Form v0.1 (Fill-able). Please let me know if there are any additional changes that you would like to make.

goober
04-09-2011, 10:45 AM
Incident Reporting Form v0.1 (Fill-able). Please let me know if there are any additional changes that you would like to make.

Nice work! :D

Munk
04-09-2011, 10:48 AM
Hey Oak, your not going to leave CA Fish and game out of the festivities, are you? Watching the FUD from their reality show, Im certain they are In serious need of some additional "Insight" on firearms laws.

I totally forgot about DFG while thinking about this issue, and I think they deserve some attention too. But for now oaklander seems to be going after the federal fools who are improperly harassing people under the false colors of CA law.

For CA DFG, i've got an old story:

I've got a copy of a ticket that was given to my brother for a non-citable section of the F&G code for spotlighting at night (non-moving), in an area where a citable section had a very clearly defined exemption.

F&G were conducting a "Sting" to get poachers in the area, big operation had agents from all over state in one relatively small area with air-support and multiple ground vehicles. Instead they harassed about a dozen coyote hunters (maybe more, some clubs don't talk to eachother) who were part of a competition. All of them were made to leave their vehicles for times ranging between 30-min to 2 hours while all the agents rummaged through their "poaching rig", repeatedly passed their guns around, gawked at the awesome scopes some of them had, and made wild accusations about scent maskers being bait, guns being illegal, and thinking that a tape deck was a radar detector. They then attempted to make some stuff up, but backpedaled when they were called on their BS by the hunters that were present. Afterwards they gave the non-sense ticket to my brother, and when he showed up in county court to fight it, he was informed that "the DA will not be pressing charges at this time. I don't even know why you bothered to come down here.".

sfpcservice
04-09-2011, 11:54 AM
Just submitted one about the closure of the Knoxeville BLM Pistol Range in Napa County, with no alternative site chosen 3 years later as the BLM promised to do when they closed the range down.

Who is behind this? What's to keep the USFS from issuing a blanket no shooting policy in any California Forest like BLM seems to do?

sfpcservice
04-09-2011, 11:56 AM
I totally forgot about DFG while thinking about this issue, and I think they deserve some attention too. But for now oaklander seems to be going after the federal fools who are improperly harassing people under the false colors of CA law.

For CA DFG, i've got an old story:

I've got a copy of a ticket that was given to my brother for a non-citable section of the F&G code for spotlighting at night (non-moving), in an area where a citable section had a very clearly defined exemption.

F&G were conducting a "Sting" to get poachers in the area, big operation had agents from all over state in one relatively small area with air-support and multiple ground vehicles. Instead they harassed about a dozen coyote hunters (maybe more, some clubs don't talk to eachother) who were part of a competition. All of them were made to leave their vehicles for times ranging between 30-min to 2 hours while all the agents rummaged through their "poaching rig", repeatedly passed their guns around, gawked at the awesome scopes some of them had, and made wild accusations about scent maskers being bait, guns being illegal, and thinking that a tape deck was a radar detector. They then attempted to make some stuff up, but backpedaled when they were called on their BS by the hunters that were present. Afterwards they gave the non-sense ticket to my brother, and when he showed up in county court to fight it, he was informed that "the DA will not be pressing charges at this time. I don't even know why you bothered to come down here.".

Just fill out a form after you watch the show! There is a button for "other agency".

Hunt
04-09-2011, 2:45 PM
this is great! BLM was spreading FUD when I emailed and requested info about prohibited zones in the Santa Rosa Wilderness. I emailed supervisors and they passed the buck and could not cite the regulations stating their FUD prohibitions. I will use this form to request they quit misinforming the public. Specifically that there is a 100 yard zone either side of road that is a prohibited zone and any area within one mile of a campground is a prohibited zone, (discharge a firearm while legally hunting). Furthermore when I asked them about access for hunting in one area they refused information, they just repeated the mantra about crossing private property.

The locals are convinced that the dept of Fish and Game really wants to stop all hunting and try to intimidate younsters into not becoming hunters...
FUD coming out of Santa Rosa Wilderness BLM management would support this comment, they just spread so much FUD and intimidation people just give up.

Southwest Chuck
04-09-2011, 3:09 PM
Incident Reporting Form v0.1 (Fill-able). Please let me know if there are any additional changes that you would like to make.

Very nice job, obeygiant! Thanks for converting it to a fill-able form.

The only change I would like to see done would be to the first line. Either delete the word "negative" or change it to read "negative or positive". Keeping only the "negative" word makes it seem we are only eliciting negative responses. Leaving it like it is tends to "bias the form at it's outset, where as when/if completed (and redacted) forms are forwarded to a Gov. official, it would tend to leave a bad taste in their mouth. Also, when communicating with them, they can see an intent to solicit both the good and bad comments. People can commend them on a job well done,and reinforces our commitment to show an expressed desire to improve things and not just be confrontational, (if that makes any sense).

Otherwise, this is an excellent form and one which I will print and carry with me since most of my shooting is done on BLM and NF land.

obeygiant
04-09-2011, 3:50 PM
Very nice job, obeygiant! Thanks for converting it to a fill-able form.

The only change I would like to see done would be to the first line. Either delete the word "negative" or change it to read "negative or positive". Keeping only the "negative" word makes it seem we are only eliciting negative responses. Leaving it like it is tends to "bias the form at it's outset, where as when/if completed (and redacted) forms are forwarded to a Gov. official, it would tend to leave a bad taste in their mouth. Also, when communicating with them, they can see an intent to solicit both the good and bad comments. People can commend them on a job well done,and reinforces our commitment to show an expressed desire to improve things and not just be confrontational, (if that makes any sense).

Otherwise, this is an excellent form and one which I will print and carry with me since most of my shooting is done on BLM and NF land.

Done.

darkwater
04-09-2011, 9:08 PM
Oaklander...FYI, here's some news from Calaveras County, Stanislaus National Forest, not far up the road from Murphys where the 1st Annual BBQ is to take place. It is not exactly a specific incident per your spreadsheet, but it's a long-running issue coming to a head between pro- and anti- target shooters in a so-called urban interface area within USFS jurisdiction. They have consulted with an "independent" firm (Center for Collaborative Policy) to provide advice/solutions for this situation, as detailed in this report: http://thepinetree.net/files/CRQ_Final_Report-(2-23-11).pdf

Not sure if CGF or CRPA ever got involved with this or even heard of it, but the NRA was brought in and did a range evaluation report.

Half of the consultant's proposed solutions include shutting down the long-standing target shooting area within the forest, and the other half recommend limiting and restricting access for target shooters, one of which calls for eventually closing the site in favor of a more neutral one.

oaklander
04-10-2011, 9:51 PM
OK - this is good to know!

Here's the summary of what we know - and what is being done. If it seems like I am being a little vague on details - that is by design - since everyone reads this forum, etc. . .

1) There *is* a problem with the federal agencies which manage public land. It appears at this point to be a training and/or communications problem. Even 5 or 6 years ago, if you saw an EBR somewhere, it was usually either a RAW, or was "illegally possessed" (there is NO such thing as an "illegal gun," guns are either illegally configured, and/or illegally possessed, but there are NO ILLEGAL GUNS - guns are just objects - they don't have illegality "attached" to them - it's always the person who owns/possesses/configures the gun who is "at fault". Sorry to digress - this is a fine distinction that the "lawyer" in me likes to make).

2) Same with legally possessed "standard capacity magazines." A few years ago, people were afraid to take their legally owned magazines anywhere, due simply to FUD. Now people are taking their mags out in public - and that is creating problems, since some LE officers do not know the law very well. . .

In sum, the agencies that manage our public land simply DO NOT KNOW about recent changes in law, and DO NOT KNOW about recent educational efforts that CGF/CGN, etc. have done.

"We" are now going to educate them. The "educating" process is going to be done by a well-known gun rights group here in CA. I can't say which group, since that may change shortly. The educating process is going to be "nice," "professional," and most-importantly "effective."

IF we still have problems after that educational process is done - alternatives are being mapped out.

I CAN tell you that I have already spent about 30 hours on this project, and several other people have spend far more time than me.

This WILL GET fixed, either in a nice "political way," or in other legal/ethical ways. I do urge people to realize that the problem is likely due to lack of information/training on the part of the public agencies involved - and so far, I have not seen any indications that it's "deliberate."

Like Gene's "magazine" thing - I do urge people to be patient. The problem is now identified, and it's been a long time in the "making" - so our solutions may not happen at "internet speed" - but they will happen. I can personally assure everyone of that. If it means that I personally drive to every office of every public agency involved and meet with every decision maker, I will do that - but I don't think I will. . .

:D

You all will soon see why. . .

Oaklander...FYI, here's some news from Calaveras County, Stanislaus National Forest, not far up the road from Murphys where the 1st Annual BBQ is to take place. It is not exactly a specific incident per your spreadsheet, but it's a long-running issue coming to a head between pro- and anti- target shooters in a so-called urban interface area within USFS jurisdiction. They have consulted with an "independent" firm (Center for Collaborative Policy) to provide advice/solutions for this situation, as detailed in this report: http://thepinetree.net/files/CRQ_Final_Report-(2-23-11).pdf

Not sure if CGF or CRPA ever got involved with this or even heard of it, but the NRA was brought in and did a range evaluation report.

Half of the consultant's proposed solutions include shutting down the long-standing target shooting area within the forest, and the other half recommend limiting and restricting access for target shooters, one of which calls for eventually closing the site in favor of a more neutral one.

DougJ
04-10-2011, 9:56 PM
This is getting good!

TurboChrisB
04-10-2011, 10:25 PM
Great work and it's very much appreciated! Thank YOU,


[QUOTE=oaklander;6177994]

"We" are now going to educate them.

I CAN tell you that I have already spent about 30 hours on this project, and several other people have spend far more time than me.[QUOTE=oaklander;6177994]

Napalm Bulldog
04-14-2011, 2:38 PM
Subscribed and bumped

cindynles
04-25-2011, 12:01 PM
Bumped.

Sierra Shooter
04-25-2011, 4:16 PM
I want to thank all those who contribute to this site. I am a relatively new gun owner. i didn't grow up shooting or hunting. I have limited knowledge on most of these subjects, mostly what i have been told by other people, which i find is mostly untrue. Thanks again

Stonewalker
04-25-2011, 6:28 PM
Now I sort of wish that I had been hassled so I could contribute!

fairfaxjim
04-26-2011, 12:16 AM
Now I sort of wish that I had been hassled so I could contribute!

Consider yourself "hassled", so now send $money$.

cindynles
05-05-2011, 1:06 PM
Bump.......

Stonewalker
05-05-2011, 1:45 PM
Consider yourself "hassled", so now send $money$.

Well geez, I meant contribute by filling out a form... but damn. You got me there. I do need to stay gold and pony up $$$

sfpcservice
05-05-2011, 5:06 PM
Are there any findings we can be told about yet? :-)

oaklander
05-05-2011, 9:56 PM
Yes - a "communication" will be made to USFS/BLM. . .

It will be fairly EPIC in scope, and will box them in. They either do what we ask - or risk problems related to the fact that there are apparent legal issues, etc. . .

The way this will be done will be a 1st ever. . . I don't want to say more. . .

It contains WIN - there is no way for them to not do the right thing here. . .

That being said - the problems seem to be apparently related to training, and maybe some policy mis-interpretations - so we are not going to go medieval on them. Just a nice clear communication, that they should probably listen to. . .

:43:

I may need some help on this, BTW. I will say more when appropriate. . .

There will be two groups, in addition to me, involved. That's all I can say, etc. . .

Are there any findings we can be told about yet? :-)

stix213
05-05-2011, 10:00 PM
You tease Oaklander :p
http://churchfun.com/images/wp/teasing-hurts.jpg

sfpcservice
05-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Yes - a "communication" will be made to USFS/BLM. . .


It contains WIN -

I may need some help on this, BTW. I will say more when appropriate. . .

There will be two groups, in addition to me, involved. That's all I can say, etc. . .

All I can think of is Charlie Sheen with the "winning" thing!

Let me know if I can help, I PM'd you a while about about helping with BLM.

oaklander
05-07-2011, 9:19 PM
Cool - yes - the "communication" is being vetted right now. . .

There's some logistics - let me think on this. . .

;)

All I can think of is Charlie Sheen with the "winning" thing!

Let me know if I can help, I PM'd you a while about about helping with BLM.

cindynles
05-20-2011, 8:42 PM
Any update on this?

sastark
05-20-2011, 8:52 PM
1) I am going to work with a GIS expert and "map out" where the problems seem to be occurring.


I realize I'm coming into this thread late, but I am a GIS expert (over 10 years in the field doing both private and public sector GIS work), and I would be glad to help in anyway I can, if you don't already have someone picked out.

I'd be happy to send you more personal/work history details, if necessary, via PM or e-mail.

goober
05-21-2011, 9:33 AM
I realize I'm coming into this thread late, but I am a GIS expert (over 10 years in the field doing both private and public sector GIS work), and I would be glad to help in anyway I can, if you don't already have someone picked out.

I'd be happy to send you more personal/work history details, if necessary, via PM or e-mail.

PM sent

George W
05-23-2011, 5:22 PM
Updates?

oaklander
05-23-2011, 5:48 PM
YES!

:D

I wish I could just come out and say what me and other other people are doing - but it's kind of important right now that things not be talked about too much.

However I CAN tell you that you should start seeing rapid improvements in USFS "Region #4."

IF anyone has any problems with USFS LE activities moving forward, please let me know ASAP.

BLM - still working on that one. . .


Updates?

N6ATF
05-23-2011, 6:05 PM
Don't you mean Region #5? This is #4:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/volunteer/images/r4_forests.gif

Rock6.3
05-23-2011, 8:04 PM
USFS Region Map (All of California is Region 5)
http://www.fs.fed.us/contactus/regions.shtml

goober
05-23-2011, 8:27 PM
YES!

:D

I wish I could just come out and say what me and other other people are doing - but it's kind of important right now that things not be talked about too much.

However I CAN tell you that you should start seeing rapid improvements in USFS "Region #4."

IF anyone has any problems with USFS LE activities moving forward, please let me know ASAP.

BLM - still working on that one. . .

Don't you mean Region #5? This is #4:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/volunteer/images/r4_forests.gif

lol oak's not a map guy.... give 'im a break :D

taperxz
05-23-2011, 9:38 PM
lol oak's not a map guy.... give 'im a break :D

Maybe thats why he is having such a success with his lobbying?

Oldie but goodie: Hudson and Landry "I'm a happy hippie take a little trippy, flying all over the world"

Scott Connors
05-23-2011, 9:50 PM
USFS Region Map (All of California is Region 5)
http://www.fs.fed.us/contactus/regions.shtml

Where's Region 7? Middle Earth? Narnia? Earth 2?

goober
05-23-2011, 11:02 PM
Where's Region 7? Middle Earth? Narnia? Earth 2?

yup, Region 7 was split into 8 & 9 in 1965... not sure why they didn't keep a "7" and just did away with it completely, but that's the way it went. :o
so now there's regions 1-10 (except 7). :p

N6ATF
05-24-2011, 1:40 AM
Where's Region 7? Middle Earth? Narnia? Earth 2?

I love all these fictional places. LOL

NorCalRedneck
05-24-2011, 1:42 AM
Thanks for doing this. I'll print a couple out and keep them with me even though I've never had a problem in Tahoe NF where I usually shoot.

In fact I was camping there a few weeks ago and two younger female rangers (IDK if they were rangers, they weren't armed) walked up to our site to check campfire permits and we ended up talking to them for about 15 minutes, the whole time my AR was leaning against the tree next to me and they never even said anything about it.

Does anyone know if there are actual armed rangers that patrol national forests? In all my time shooting and camping I've never seen one. All I've seen are the park aids or whatever they're called that hand out fire permits, but they're unarmed and I don't even know if they can write tickets.

oaklander
05-24-2011, 11:27 AM
LOL, I'm terrible with numbers!!!! I can tell you that I was on a conference call with upper management at USFS, along with some other people. The Commander that we were talking to said something about the number "4" - maybe "area 4," "district 4" or something like that???

She said it covered most of SoCal up to around Sacto. I'll let the folks who are good with maps and numbers figure out what that is. I *do* remember the number 4. . .

OK, I"m an airhead sometimes!!!!

I can tell you that they appear to be fairly familiar with CA "AW" laws - BUT - they are not as familiar with 4th A stuff. . . I'd like to get a LOT more specific, but I can't, since other people are involved, and this project intersects with a couple other projects that are being worked on by other people/groups.

I *can* tell you that the problem here is well-known - and there's a lot of momentum right now to "fix" it. There WILL be movement on this, and as I said in my previous post - there will be improvements in "#4" - wherever that it!!!!!

If there are NOT improvements, then more action will be taken. I am far from done with this - it's somewhat of a personal crusade right now - and I am glad that the groups I am working with are 100 percent on board with what me/I/we are trying to do. . .

NOW - if I could just learn to read a fricken map!!!!!!!

:D

Southwest Chuck
05-24-2011, 12:12 PM
......Does anyone know if there are actual armed rangers that patrol national forests? ..... I don't even know if they can write tickets.

Yes there are, and they do. I got a fix-it ticket from one up in Azusa Canyon, SoCal. Going to court tomorrow on it. I plan to post and file a report on it here after it's been adjudicated and give details on what happened.

oaklander
05-24-2011, 1:18 PM
Please do. As you know, USFS/BLM LE is very limited in what they *can* do, absent a specific MOU with the local state LE agency. . .

Yes there are, and they do. I got a fix-it ticket from one up in Azusa Canyon, SoCal. Going to court tomorrow on it. I plan to post and file a report on it here after it's been adjudicated and give details on what happened.

Southwest Chuck
05-24-2011, 1:47 PM
Please do. As you know, USFS/BLM LE is very limited in what they *can* do, absent a specific MOU with the local state LE agency. . .

Yes I know. I did some research on it in the past. There IS a possibility that I may have to fight one aspect of the citation. I'll wait and see what the judge says and see if he dismisses it. Let's just say it was a chicken-sh*t stop/encounter near the Burro Canyon Shooting Range. :chris:

Oak, is there a way to obtain any and all MOU's /written autorizations, etc. in California between USFS/BLM districts/areas/regions and CA LEA's? :confused: Aren't these public records ? Given the statutory restrictions placed on these rangers/officers L.E. powers in CA, I would really like to see/examine/scrutinize the validity of their powers in each area/district/region/county of California. Is there an easy way to do that/get that information?

I would hazard a bet that in many cases, they don't have the power they think they have. :mad:

Rock6.3
05-24-2011, 6:18 PM
I believe the authority for this matter is the County Sheriff. The Sheriff has discretion to grant authority to Federal law enforcement to allow them to enforce state/county laws. Absent this authority the Federal law enforcement officers can only be involved in Federal law issues.

Yes I know. I did some research on it in the past. There IS a possibility that I may have to fight one aspect of the citation. I'll wait and see what the judge says and see if he dismisses it. Let's just say it was a chicken-sh*t stop/encounter near the Burro Canyon Shooting Range. :chris:

Oak, is there a way to obtain any and all MOU's /written autorizations, etc. in California between USFS/BLM districts/areas/regions and CA LEA's? :confused: Aren't these public records ? Given the statutory restrictions placed on these rangers/officers L.E. powers in CA, I would really like to see/examine/scrutinize the validity of their powers in each area/district/region/county of California. Is there an easy way to do that/get that information?

I would hazard a bet that in many cases, they don't have the power they think they have. :mad:

Rock6.3
05-24-2011, 6:22 PM
There are 18 National Forests in California, each administered by a Supervisor who is the king/queen in their domain. These National Forests are named, not numbered. California organizational overview: http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/about/overview.html

vantec08
05-24-2011, 8:15 PM
Got it, will carry with me. Only serious problem I ever had was few years ago with BLM ranger.

Southwest Chuck
05-24-2011, 8:53 PM
I believe the authority for this matter is the County Sheriff. The Sheriff has discretion to grant authority to Federal law enforcement to allow them to enforce state/county laws. Absent this authority the Federal law enforcement officers can only be involved in Federal law issues.

Yes I already know that. The only way to know what powers have been granted them by the County Sheriff, and any possible limitations to those powers, is to get a copy of the paperwork. Thus my question.


.

Southwest Chuck
05-24-2011, 8:59 PM
There are 18 National Forests in California, each administered by a Supervisor who is the king/queen in their domain. These National Forests are named, not numbered. California organizational overview: http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/about/overview.html

The Link was very helpful in understanding their management structure. Thanks!

DragRag
05-24-2011, 9:15 PM
So, with all this information being gathered and stored could this result in something bigger then being imagined now. If indeed the Rangers/BLM are indeed harassing, and some sort of rights are being denied? Can all these forms being filled out and being stored in one location result in some larger litigation, or class action suit in the future if it was ever warranted? Not pushing, just asking. I am just curious that if there were a larger problem all this gather info could be used as a hammer. Your thoughts appreciated.

brownfeathermedic
05-24-2011, 9:53 PM
Thanks Oaklander for your hard work. Maybe with a lil help,we can erradicate the abuse of power in California.And we can make better use of our BLM lands so that Families can enjoy Quality time.

gunsmith
05-24-2011, 10:10 PM
BLM is probably one of the hugest land owners ever in the USA, I'm surrounded by BLM.
The neighbors ranched cattle for generations but the BLM ended it one yr, the next yr a huge fire erupted due to overgrowth.

This is a great thread, BLM seems to ignore gun issues in Northern NV but I'm in CA as much as I can. I left my Heart in San Francisco...it got towed & I got fined.

Southwest Chuck
05-25-2011, 12:55 PM
Incident Report sent. Thanks Oak !

Keep your vehicles in top shape guys. Don't give them ANY reason to pull you over.... like a bad bulb in your License Plate Light. :43: :(


.

oaklander
05-25-2011, 2:52 PM
The information is confidential, since I'm an attorney - and attorneys are ethically required to keep things confidential.

We are looking for patterns right now - the areas covered are HUGE, and the management structure is complicated - so it's almost impossible to know what's going on without looking for patterns.

So, with all this information being gathered and stored could this result in something bigger then being imagined now. If indeed the Rangers/BLM are indeed harassing, and some sort of rights are being denied? Can all these forms being filled out and being stored in one location result in some larger litigation, or class action suit in the future if it was ever warranted? Not pushing, just asking. I am just curious that if there were a larger problem all this gather info could be used as a hammer. Your thoughts appreciated.

oaklander
05-25-2011, 2:55 PM
ALL of the MOU's are ABSOLUTELY PUBLIC RECORDS. You can either get them from the USFS/BLM via a FOIA request, or from the sheriffs' offices via a state Public Records Act request.

You can google both FOIA and PRAR to see how they are done. Both are simple, and can even be done via email in many cases.

IF you start to get pushback - let me know. . .

I'd like to see someone get ALL of the MOUs in the state, actually, and send them to me. . .

Yes I already know that. The only way to know what powers have been granted them by the County Sheriff, and any possible limitations to those powers, is to get a copy of the paperwork. Thus my question.


.

sfpcservice
05-25-2011, 5:24 PM
ALL of the MOU's are ABSOLUTELY PUBLIC RECORDS. You can either get them from the USFS/BLM via a FOIA request, or from the sheriffs' offices via a state Public Records Act request.

You can google both FOIA and PRAR to see how they are done. Both are simple, and can even be done via email in many cases.

IF you start to get pushback - let me know. . .

I'd like to see someone get ALL of the MOUs in the state, actually, and send them to me. . .

Don't forget the US Park Police and US Park Rangers for San Francisco, Marin and San Mateo counties. I'd do it but cannot for personal reasons. The results may be interesting.

rumblebee
05-25-2011, 7:36 PM
Great Great things going on here!! Thanks to everyone involved

:cool:

oaklander
05-26-2011, 8:13 PM
Thanks!

There's several different ways of handling all of this:

1) social (meetings, letters, etc.)
2) legal
3) political (budgets are controlled by people we vote into office)
4) press (affects #1,2,3)

We are 100 percent "right" on this issue - and so the thing to do is keep working at it. What's happening right now is this: we are doing #1, and starting slow. Maybe slower than *I* would like - but I'm kind of a hothead on this particular issue. In fact, this whole public land issue makes my blood boil, since it's OUR land - and we are being harassed while doing something legal on OUR land.

If improvements are not forthcoming, then we all go to #2. There's a huge financial incentive for law firms to get involved in any 4th A violations on public land. It's what is called a "profit center" for law firms - and it's my hope that USFS/BLM folks who read this thread understand that I am not threatening litigation - rather - I'm just pointing out the dangers of the continued CLEAR Fourth Amendment violations that have already been witnessed, videotaped and documented.

Except for the NFA Trusts that I sell (at a DISCOUNT), and which barely pay for their own marketing, I make ZERO money off of any of the pro-2A work that I do. . .

BUT - if the continued civil rights violations keep happening on public land, I might decide to change my tune, since there are statutory causes of actions for these sorts of violations, and one large suit should wake up these agencies.

Out of deference to the other two attorneys who are doing work on this, I'm biding my time. And I don't want to do anything that will mess up *their* work or harm *their* clients. But if I'm presented with a clear case, and I represent that client, I'm ethically obligated to pursue that case zealously. And I can be very zealous on this type of legal stuff, when I want to be.

So again, this is NOT over - and folks who know me know that I am like a leech on certain stuff - I just won't let it go. Ask me to tell you what I'm doing with respect to Oakland City Council's lame 2009 attempt to pass yet more anti-gunshop laws (a friend will likely open the ONLY gun shop in Oakland, within 12 to 18 months).

I'm seriously that XXXXXXX, and I'm seriously the wrong person to piss off. And we like it that way.

:D

Great Great things going on here!! Thanks to everyone involved

:cool:

tony270
06-03-2011, 11:18 AM
I'm out of the loop.

The last I read was that I can't legally shoot my 7.62x39 AKS Polytech or my .223 Colt H-Bar Match Model rifle on public land BLM/NFS, my understand was that I can shoot on Private Property. Where the law is posted, or is it that when the Federal AWB expired it changed things?

I'f so, how do I need to carry them (is the trunk considered a locked container)?
I don't know where my letters, I did registered the firearms information with the Richmond Police Department and with the State Attorney General Dan Lungren. If you move do they need to need to reregister?

markm
06-06-2011, 9:05 AM
Thanks to all who are working this issue.

I am a National Forest and National Park junky. I appreciate your work to educate FS LEO, and to enlighten us as to our rights on federally owned, but not controlled land.

Police power resides with the state, or its political subdivisions, in most of these areas. Yosemite being an exception becuase it is officially a federal reservation (as deemed by the CA legislature and accepted by Congress).

Please keep us updated.

markm

PS: Oaklander, I sent you a pm.

goober
06-06-2011, 9:48 AM
I'm out of the loop.

The last I read was that I can't legally shoot my 7.62x39 AKS Polytech or my .223 Colt H-Bar Match Model rifle on public land BLM/NFS, my understand was that I can shoot on Private Property. Where the law is posted, or is it that when the Federal AWB expired it changed things?

Unless there was some BLM declaration I am unaware of, you may shoot your RAW on BLM land if shooting is allowed.


I'f so, how do I need to carry them (is the trunk considered a locked container)?
Unloaded in a locked container (trunk counts) and only to & from the destination (place you're going to shoot legally, gunsmith, etc.). Don't carry them around all the time as a "truck gun".


I don't know where my letters, I did registered the firearms information with the Richmond Police Department and with the State Attorney General Dan Lungren. If you move do they need to need to reregister?

Don't have to keep copies of reg letters with RAWs but it's a good idea. Request copies from DoJ. No need to re-register if you move within CA (in fact, there IS no "re-register").
Hope this helps. Anyone please correct me if any of this is wrong.

George W
06-19-2011, 7:54 PM
Oak any updates regarding the issues at Lytle with the Forest Ranger?
Thanks
GW

loki26
08-13-2011, 9:56 AM
Anything new on this topic? Dose the USFS use the same RAW policy as BLM for hunting with a RAW?

MudCamper
08-13-2011, 11:13 AM
Oak, let me know if you need someone to help in this effort. I know you are busy with a lot of other issues, and having moved back to urbania this may not be as important to you anymore. Yes, I'm volunteering.

Dark Sky Solutions
08-13-2011, 5:44 PM
Printed and bumped!!! What's going on with this issue Oak? What ever u can tell us BLM shooters would be great. Thanks

oaklander
08-15-2011, 3:30 AM
A Calgunner with certain connections is finding me the phone number that I need. I *was* going to sit on this for a while. A lawyer in SoCal was working on something related, and I did not want to do anything that would hurt what that person was doing (it could have hurt his client).

There is enough time passed now that the issue is moot.

I am going to make a phone call to a certain person. If the call does not result in certain things changing, then I/we go to step #2.

I can't say what step #2 "is" - but I can tell people that there are many lawyers who wish to help on this issue "pro bono" - and continued civil rights violations by any state organization are per se actionable. Feel free to point any USFS "brass" to this thread, and to our record of success on these issues.

Two other things should be known:

1) There are people who are "not" Calgunners who are now interested in this issue.

2) The people who "fix" this issue may not even be visibly connected to me.

There is a certain gravity here, and when things start to swing too far in a "wrong" direction, the tendency is for the system to fix itself, either legally, or politically. The USFS is funded by tax dollars, and that means that budgets can simply disappear.

jwb28
08-15-2011, 4:13 PM
There is a certain gravity here, and when things start to swing too far in a "wrong" direction, the tendency is for the system to fix itself, either legally, or politically. The USFS is funded by tax dollars, and that means that budgets can simply disappear.

I really like the sound of that.
Thank you Oaklander for everything you do.

George W
09-30-2011, 10:24 PM
Oak have we reached step #2 yet?

I do miss shooting at Lytle Creek and do want to host another beltfed event there but until the legal pre-ban hicap and belts issue is resolved with the Forest Ranger It's not an option.
Thanks for all your work on this. Updates without compromising your work are always appreciated and encouraging.
GW

oaklander
10-03-2011, 1:37 AM
Oak have we reached step #2 yet?

I do miss shooting at Lytle Creek and do want to host another beltfed event there but until the legal pre-ban hicap and belts issue is resolved with the Forest Ranger It's not an option.
Thanks for all your work on this. Updates without compromising your work are always appreciated and encouraging.
GW

Well, there is some action on this. As I may have mentioned, they are fully aware that we have these issues with them. That is from me talking to them on the phone and telling them that. BLM is also aware.

There is some potential litigation, but I am not at liberty to say who is suing who.

NOW - normally this is where I would start a letter-writing campaign against both BLM and USFS. BUT - when I moved back to Oakland, I just kind of got really angry that local politics is preventing the 95 percent of Oaklanders who ARE law abiding - from protecting themselves.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.

loekanle
10-03-2011, 3:16 AM
sorry to interrupt, what is a BLM and USFS because thats not on the acronym thread http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606

kel-tec-innovations
10-03-2011, 3:28 AM
Printed out, ready at hand when I visit BLM

stix213
10-03-2011, 3:56 AM
sorry to interrupt, what is a BLM and USFS because thats not on the acronym thread http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606

They are federal government agencies.

Bureau of Land Management
US Forest Service

Dutch3
10-03-2011, 4:00 AM
sorry to interrupt, what is a BLM and USFS because thats not on the acronym thread http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606

BLM = Bureau of Land Management (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en.html)

USFS = United States Forest Service (http://www.fs.fed.us/)

Sugacookie
10-11-2011, 2:26 PM
This needs to bumped. Holmes is his name and being an *** is his game........

taperxz
10-11-2011, 2:32 PM
I believe this entire endeavor has been abandoned.:mad:

oaklander
10-13-2011, 12:15 AM
I believe this entire endeavor has been abandoned.:mad:

Reach out to Jason Davis. Ping me on FB for his info. This is not dead, just dormant because of my Oakland thing (which we have agreed to not agree on).

:-)

sfpcservice
10-13-2011, 1:22 PM
http://www.justice.gov/actioncenter/complaint.html#doj

Above is the form for submitting a complaint on a Federal Officer with the US Department of Justice. Not sure if that is all Feds or just those Under DOJ.

http://www.usda.gov/oig/rptsauditsfs.htm

Above is the Website for the USFS Inspector General, you can submit a complaint here for any issue involving the USFS.

http://www.doioig.gov/

Above is the link to the DOI Inspector General. This covers National Park Service and BLM. You can submit a complaint here for any wrongdoing on the park of a NPS or BLM Ranger.

The Inspector General agencies are staffed by Special Agents who are not in the command structure of the Officers you would be reporting. Perhaps since Oak has tabled this one for the time being, anyone who submits a report to these agencies should keep a copy they can forward to whoever resumes this operation at that time, and in the mean time at least you have reported the event to an investigator. I have a feeling some of the same names will be popping up in most of the reports and it would probably be important for the cause to be able to prove those reports were submitted. That's just my 2 Cents...

Helpful_Cub
10-17-2011, 9:33 PM
Just a heads up if you plan to hunt near the Littlerock Dam in the Angeles National Forrest. The canyon south of the Dam is close because of some endangered toad. However west and east of the Dam is still open. I called the Ranger Station in charge of that area to ask about roads that had access into that area and had to deal with an Operator who was of the belief that "there are no roads and you can't hunt there or anywhere in that area!" I read the law, LA county allows hunting around the Dam but you must be so far away from it. The area I was looking at was 2 miles away to the west, well clear of the boundary and still inside the Forrest. Anyways, I scouted today and found all kinds of power line service roads through the area. So let that be a lesson, the FS in that area is full of it and useless.

GrizzlyGuy
10-21-2011, 1:10 PM
Here is a shocking incident posted over in off-topic, they were apparently put on the ground, cuffed, and OP was cited for something he didn't even do: Forest LE held us at gun point again! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=491203)

awall919
10-21-2011, 1:29 PM
Thank you Oaklander. I always appreciate your efforts. Feel free to PM me if there's something I can lend a hand with.
Also Tuolumne Co. USFS has been a bit rough and also booting people of of legitimate shooting/hunting areas near MT. Knight (Twain Harte area).

choprzrul
10-21-2011, 1:29 PM
Here is a shocking incident posted over in off-topic, they were apparently put on the ground, cuffed, and OP was cited for something he didn't even do: Forest LE held us at gun point again! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=491203)

Yep, read that earlier. The OP there could certainly use some legal help I believe.

.

454CA
10-22-2011, 2:15 PM
I can't read the thread: Forest LE held us at gun point again!
can someone post a summary, I get the you don't have permission to access this thread/page message. must not have a high enough post count or I'm on a almost banned list or something.


edit: judging by the post below mine, don't summarize any details from that thread, we should hear more about it later. you know, in about two weeks.

tabrisnet
10-22-2011, 2:41 PM
Well, either my alleged misbehaving in the Marketplace is getting me also banned, or the thread has been marked locked due to the excess of information that the user gave w/o consulting a lawyer FIRST, rather than coming to CGN.

oaklander
10-23-2011, 12:46 AM
Well, either my alleged misbehaving in the Marketplace is getting me also banned, or the thread has been marked locked due to the excess of information that the user gave w/o consulting a lawyer FIRST, rather than coming to CGN.

PLEASE have someone call Jason Davis.


Sent from my brain, to yours. . .

GrizzlyGuy
10-23-2011, 7:03 AM
I can't read the thread: Forest LE held us at gun point again!
can someone post a summary, I get the you don't have permission to access this thread/page message. must not have a high enough post count or I'm on a almost banned list or something.


edit: judging by the post below mine, don't summarize any details from that thread, we should hear more about it later. you know, in about two weeks.

Well, either my alleged misbehaving in the Marketplace is getting me also banned, or the thread has been marked locked due to the excess of information that the user gave w/o consulting a lawyer FIRST, rather than coming to CGN.

It's not just you guys, it appears that the mods have deleted the thread. I don't know why but it could be good or bad. Good: legal action is going to happen. Bad: the thread devolved into general LEO bashing. Those are purely guesses on my part as only the mods know for sure.

oaklander
10-23-2011, 7:35 AM
It's not just you guys, it appears that the mods have deleted the thread. I don't know why but it could be good or bad. Good: legal action is going to happen. Bad: the thread devolved into general LEO bashing. Those are purely guesses on my part as only the mods know for sure.

Good! The USFS and BLM issue is well-known. It will get fixed, but there are bandwidth issues. There is a law similar to Section "1983" that can easily monetize winning cases on this. I urge all attornies reading this to learn that law, then think about monetizing this issue on behalf of your potential clients. All it would take to stop all of this is one or two cases. Just coordinate with Jason, please.

ALSO - state and federal elected representatives get extra brownie points these days for standing up for civil rights. So certain letters can be sent to certain people.


Sent from my brain, to yours. . .

dirty_530
10-23-2011, 11:02 PM
Printed and tucked away in the rifle case, thank you very much Oaklander!

cindynles
01-19-2012, 2:37 PM
Bump.

It seems there was another incident last Sunday.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=523910

oaklander
01-19-2012, 5:55 PM
This is a USFS case, as far as I know:

http://madison-society.org/laws/Bizzanelli.htm

I would urge folks to contact Madison for details. There is legal action, and I was one of the people who helped get this in the pipeline.

Sometimes I am slow, but I never forget about stuff that bothers me.

Window_Seat
01-19-2012, 6:31 PM
Is Bizzanelli a DC case? I looked around, but all I can find is the Madison Society link.

Erik.

stix213
01-19-2012, 6:45 PM
Glad this is still getting attention.

On a side note I had a run in on NF land about a month ago with fed law enforcement that overall went pretty well. They seemed confused about long gun registration requirements, but seemed to take my word for it to make a long story short.

oaklander
01-20-2012, 10:19 AM
Is Bizzanelli a DC case? I looked around, but all I can find is the Madison Society link.

Erik.

I think it is just a criminal case right now, which is sad. The person arrested is literally a war hero. We have known killers wandering the streets here in Oakland, and some idiot out in the sticks is throwing American heroes in jail?

WTF?

Things are VERY broken. Time for second box.


Sent from my brain, to yours. . .

kel-tec-innovations
01-20-2012, 11:15 PM
Just filled out the form. Thanks ! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=523910

covingtonhouse
02-21-2012, 10:52 PM
This needs to bumped. Holmes is his name and being an *** is his game........



Had a contact with a BLM ranger with this name. Not unpleasant, but wasted a lot of good shooting time. Had some fun moving him around while he kept trying to keep his personal space.

Stainned
02-22-2012, 7:53 AM
Ran into a Sheriff in the South East portion of Stanislaus. We all had our side arms strapped on, couple AR's sitting out. He payed no attention to them. Just stopped by to hand some paperwork out regarding new OHV rules. Really nice guy.

454CA
05-16-2012, 9:47 PM
Had a contact up at the Cow mountain BLM range, nothing really negative to report. just a heads up the range policy is anyone with a RAW must keep the registration paperwork with the weapon or the rangers will confiscate, I was asking out of curiousity - because he said that is how they differentiate between registered or an illegal AW, by paperwork. Also said the weapon could be returned if you produced paperwork later, sounds like a hassle most might want to avoid. And the rangers knew what bullet buttons were and that rimfire rifles are exempt. They may even know more than that, I had shooting to do so I did not quiz further.

oaklander
05-16-2012, 11:01 PM
It sounds like they might be getting better. I know that people connected to our coalition have been doing things on that back end. Sometimes, stuff happens quietly.

This may be what is happening, and it is hard to speculate which group was responsible. This is why we generally advise people to support all groups. We are literally working on a thousand fronts right now.

M1A Rifleman
05-17-2012, 12:03 PM
Had a contact up at the Cow mountain BLM range, nothing really negative to report. just a heads up the range policy is anyone with a RAW must keep the registration paperwork with the weapon or the rangers will confiscate, I was asking out of curiousity - because he said that is how they differentiate between registered or an illegal AW, by paperwork. Also said the weapon could be returned if you produced paperwork later, sounds like a hassle most might want to avoid. And the rangers knew what bullet buttons were and that rimfire rifles are exempt. They may even know more than that, I had shooting to do so I did not quiz further.

Sounds problematic since the law does not require that you keep the RAW paperwork with the weapon.

454CA
05-17-2012, 1:13 PM
Sounds problematic since the law does not require that you keep the RAW paperwork with the weapon.

I hear you, it could be a setback for those that simply follow the law in California (there seems to be no end to these setbacks when following the law in California). Unfortunately, BLM and other agencies can impose their own specific policies on lands/ranges under their control which are not always very well advertised/accessible, I could not find anything speaking to this on their website and there are no range rules posted. I'm doing my best to spread the word that a senior agent of enforcement at the specific site of the Cow mountain range, is steadfastly adhered to a policy of: if using their range and planning to avoid entaglements= possesion of a RAW and your registration letter together.
The reasoning seems to be they use the local sheriffs dispatch to run firearms through AFS and they want to have the letter because communications to this dispatch are not always available. Of course they do not need a reason, just to have a policy in place.

M1A Rifleman
05-17-2012, 1:21 PM
I hear you, it could be a setback for those that simply follow the law in California (there seems to be no end to these setbacks when following the law in California). Unfortunately, BLM and other agencies can impose their own specific policies on lands/ranges under their control which are not always very well advertised/accessible, I could not find anything speaking to this on their website and there are no range rules posted. I'm doing my best to spread the word that a senior agent of enforcement at the specific site of the Cow mountain range, is steadfastly adhered to a policy of: if using their range and planning to avoid entaglements= possesion of a RAW and your registration letter together.
The reasoning seems to be they use the local sheriffs dispatch to run firearms through AFS and they want to have the letter because communications to this dispatch are not always available. Of course they do not need a reason, just to have a policy in place.

Understood. Since DOJ's registration data is spooky, keeping papers with you to save yourself time is suggested.

Since it is legal to possess RAW's on public land, which means no law is broken. Therefore, there should be no reason to request to see your registration just for being at the range. This appears to be harrasment since they also don't ask to veify if your drivers license is valid, and to verify if the vehicle you have parked at the range is stolen.

ar15robert
05-17-2012, 2:15 PM
I made a copy and have always kept it the guns butstock even though not required.IMO i'd rather be able to prove if communication was down or there was an error somewhere.