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drclark
04-06-2011, 11:40 PM
Most credit the German mp-44 as the first assault rifle using a cartridge scaled down from a full power rifle cartridge.

Could one argue that the m-1 / m-2 carbine could also qualify being a lighter weight weapon using a cartridge scaled up from a pistol round.

The only sticking point I can see is that the carbine was primarily intended for second line troops whose primary duty was not carrying a rifle (with the exception of those issued to paratroopers).

I believe the mp-44 was intended as a frontline combat weapon but probably was not issued in the same numbers as the m-1 carbine.

Thoughts?

drc

tonelar
04-06-2011, 11:47 PM
You might be forgetting the "select fire" aspect of the Assault Rifle definition.

IIRC the Stg44 (fielded 1943) predates the M2 (fielded 1945) by 1 or 2 years.

MrPlink
04-06-2011, 11:59 PM
there are examples of guns that could be considered assault rifles that predate the STG,
like the Federov, but none of them really combined all the modern features of what we consider an assault rifle, on top of being actually fielded in any numbers worth mentioning, and just being effective period like the STG.
Its where it all starts.

CK_32
04-07-2011, 7:46 AM
It's not an assault rifle :nono:

tujungatoes
04-07-2011, 11:34 AM
It's not an assault rifle :nono:

Um...the MP44 is definetly an assault rifle. In fact the name sturmgewehr means literally "storm rifle".

BatBoy2 75
04-07-2011, 11:42 AM
there are examples of guns that could be considered assault rifles that predate the STG,
like the Federov, but none of them really combined all the modern features of what we consider an assault rifle, on top of being actually fielded in any numbers worth mentioning, and just being effective period like the STG.
Its where it all starts.

^^^^this^^^^

The STg44 was game changer. I have to look up the reference, but during WWII, a regiment or division sized German Army unit fought iit's way out of an huge encirclement after STG44s where air dropped to them.

We can thank Hitler for being a complete dumb @ss and hindering the Stg44 development and fielding. Otherwise WWII (in Europe) would gone on a lot longer or ended in a different manner.

Killawhale415
04-07-2011, 1:11 PM
For some reason I just hat the term "assault rifle"

Rekrab
04-07-2011, 1:15 PM
"Assault weapon" is the term you need to be hating on, "Assault Rifle" is a legitimate military term not coined by the gun-fearing media.

tonelar
04-07-2011, 2:07 PM
I had no idea the Federov existed... Was it semi or full auto?

It's not an assault rifle :nono:

The Stg44 is the first Assault Rifle. The M1 carbine is neither an Assault Rifle nor an SMG.

For some reason I just hat the term "assault rifle"

You forgot the E and the R in HEART...

"Assault weapon" is the term you need to be hating on, "Assault Rifle" is a legitimate military term not coined by the gun-fearing media.

^This

I heart Assault Rifles

stix213
04-07-2011, 2:17 PM
The M2 Carbine is more of a sub machine gun than an assault rifle IMO.

dieselpower
04-07-2011, 2:21 PM
Um...the MP44 is definetly an assault rifle. In fact the name sturmgewehr means literally "storm rifle".

yeah...not sure why people are so scared of the Assault Rifle term. It was made for close trench type warfare... tight situations where a long rifle is a hindrance to close up fighting. The Submachine Gun came next in use I believe. (I think the SMG was designed first though)

five.five-six
04-07-2011, 2:22 PM
this gets my vote


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/davidcoates/Military%20Refs/1928_3.jpg

mauser98k
04-07-2011, 2:44 PM
this gets my vote


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/davidcoates/Military%20Refs/1928_3.jpg

it fires a handgun caliber round, not an intermediate round so, technically, it can't be called an assault rifle

Rekrab
04-07-2011, 2:55 PM
it fires a handgun caliber round, not an intermediate round so, technically, it can't be called an assault rifle

Indeed, that would be more of a submachine gun.

dieselpower
04-07-2011, 3:30 PM
yeah IIRC order of design is; Blunderbuss, Rifle, carbine, machine gun submachine gun, Assault Rifle.

metalliman545
04-07-2011, 5:29 PM
Submachine gun, 1918 I believe, the mp18.

Josh3239
04-07-2011, 5:32 PM
I had no idea the Federov existed... Was it semi or full auto?

It was select fire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat

smle-man
04-07-2011, 6:26 PM
Villar-Perosa pistol caliber twin MG from 1914 later turned into a sub machine gun in 1918

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villar_Perosa_(weapon)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Villar-Perosa_M15.png/200px-Villar-Perosa_M15.png

tonelar
04-07-2011, 6:44 PM
I get a feeling there are a lot of Calgunners who can't tell an assault rifle from an assault weapon.

five.five-six
04-07-2011, 6:50 PM
what's an assault weapon :confused:

pyro3k2
04-07-2011, 6:56 PM
just to add to the conversation, 7.62x25 sub gun.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41
http://www.gunpics.net/russian/ppsh41/ppsh4123.JPG

Bhobbs
04-07-2011, 7:03 PM
The M1 Carbine was originally designed as select fire but the full auto feature was dropped for the production rifle. Full auto was then put back in the M2 Carbine so if the US kept it select fire it would have had the first semi auto rifle and assault rifle issued to its troops in significant numbers.

MrPlink
04-07-2011, 9:45 PM
LOL what is this? The post random pix of SMGs when people talk about assault rifles thread?
:D

Somebody post a pic of a Remy870 and a light saber and Id say we are complete

Scott Connors
04-07-2011, 10:23 PM
The M2 Carbine is more of a sub machine gun than an assault rifle IMO.

Especially considering that it is chambered for what is essentially a pistol cartridge.

Josh3239
04-07-2011, 10:28 PM
:rofl2:

LOL what is this? The post random pix of SMGs when people talk about assault rifles thread?
:D

Somebody post a pic of a Remy870 and a light saber and Id say we are complete

MrPlink
04-08-2011, 3:32 AM
The M1 Carbine was originally designed as select fire but the full auto feature was dropped for the production rifle. Full auto was then put back in the M2 Carbine so if the US kept it select fire it would have had the first semi auto rifle and assault rifle issued to its troops in significant numbers.

Interesting, never knew the M1carbine was designed from the get go to handle FA. Can you cite your source?

Either way, I still dont think it qualifies, as others have pointed out, even in FA its practically a SMG, not to mention you have to look at the primary purpose behind it, which was to give 2nd line troops something more powerful than a 1911 but not as heavy as a thompson.

gatesbox
04-08-2011, 3:59 PM
it fires a handgun caliber round, not an intermediate round so, technically, it can't be called an assault rifle

We can't classify the firearm based on it's round....since the west was one with rifles that fired rounds which could also be fired in pistols....

Is a .22 a pistol round or a rifle round? Rhetorical question

Rekrab
04-08-2011, 4:24 PM
We can't classify the firearm based on it's round....since the west was one with rifles that fired rounds which could also be fired in pistols....

Is a .22 a pistol round or a rifle round? Rhetorical question

Yeah, but the west was won with firearms that cannot be classified as Assault Rifles or SMGs. There's more to the distinction than caliber.

You could say that an SMG is an Assault Rifle in a handgun caliber though...

stix213
04-08-2011, 5:24 PM
Interesting, never knew the M1carbine was designed from the get go to handle FA. Can you cite your source?


The M1 Carbine article on Wikipedia makes this claim, but there is no citation given as to the source of that information.

mauser98k
04-08-2011, 5:31 PM
Yeah, but the west was won with firearms that cannot be classified as Assault Rifles or SMGs. There's more to the distinction than caliber.

You could say that an SMG is an Assault Rifle in a handgun caliber though...

an assault rifle must have 3 things to be a true "assault rifle"

1. select fire capability
2. detachable magazine
3. intermediate round

jackandblood
04-08-2011, 5:55 PM
ya i guess its not. still way cool weapon. I think its a pretty amazing combo of decent power, practical range, aimed high rates of fire, and unprecedented light weight and handling. If it had a spitzer pointed bullet for tumbling, it'd be what I want issued if I were there.

pyro3k2
04-08-2011, 6:12 PM
LOL what is this? The post random pix of SMGs when people talk about assault rifles thread?
:D

Somebody post a pic of a Remy870 and a light saber and Id say we are complete

:( but sometimes I like to post unrelated photo's DONT YOU TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME!

themailman
04-08-2011, 6:32 PM
It's not an assault rifle :nono:

What the hell are you talking about? I'm sorry, but in the past youve shown a disregard for facts and reality, but this, well, this is simply asinine. Stop posting on Calguns until you have done even the most minute amount of research, please.

jtv3062
04-08-2011, 6:52 PM
What about Germanys machine pistol 43, that's the first assault rifle!






:smartass:

Rekrab
04-09-2011, 12:29 AM
No, the MP40 was a submachine gun.

jtv3062
04-09-2011, 5:55 AM
I think everybody would agree that the mp40 is an subgun.

mauser98k
04-09-2011, 7:59 AM
No, the MP40 was a submachine gun.

he said MP 43. which was another designation for the StG44. same thing, different name

not-fishing
04-09-2011, 8:18 AM
I'd argue that the Lewis & Clark Airgun was the first "sturmgewehr"

20 shots 45 cal 30 seconds. :cool:

Seems pretty fast when compared to 2 minutes to reload a flintlock longrifle. not a musket

Rekrab
04-09-2011, 2:03 PM
he said MP 43. which was another designation for the StG44. same thing, different name

Blarg, I'm a tool. >.<

jeff762
04-09-2011, 7:50 PM
accually the machine carbiner 42 was the germans first assault rifle. it was the basis for the mp 43/mp 44/ sgt 44 weapons.

the significant thing of the federov was that it used a lower powered round rather than a full power battle rifle round. it was chambered in japanese 6.5 mm.