PDA

View Full Version : Junk Russian ammo; Tula, Wolf, Herters


Pages : [1] 2

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 10:41 PM
Well, just like I warn people that they deserve what the get with garbage cheapo laquer coated Russian ammo...... My brother bought a bunch of the cheap Herters .223 ammo from Cabella's, against my warnings..... Sure enough he drove out to Ocotillo today to shoot, and after about 4 mags of the bargain basement stuff, one round gets jammed in the chamber of his almost brand new Bushmaster upper, would not extract, and after 15 minutes of trying to get it out, he had to call it a day. He did not have a rod with him to slide down the barrel and knock it out. :confused:

pyro3k2
04-06-2011, 10:46 PM
funny...my AK cycles all of those with zero problems. I see the picture in your sig line and wonder why you let him buy an AR to begin with????

Baconator
04-06-2011, 10:47 PM
I've never had issues with Wolf.

sleepercar
04-06-2011, 10:47 PM
I've just started with the Herters.. No issues at all so far. Five hundred down range.. If he doesn't want it anymore, give it to me.
:D

incredablehefey
04-06-2011, 10:48 PM
not trying to discount the poor quality of the ammo but was the gun properly cleaned and lubed before the use of the steel cased ammo? The only reason i ask is i dont usually have any problems unless i switch between steel and brass cased ammo.

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 10:50 PM
funny...my AK cycles all of those with zero problems. I see the picture in your sig line and wonder why you let him buy an AR to begin with????

I know, my past SKS, and AK's love the painted shells, they are made with loose enough tolerances to spit it out after they shoot. Mixing low grade imported non-brass ammo in AR's is just plain dumb. He waisted 3 hours of time, and probably more $$ in gas with his truck making that trip, only to have it ended short because of AMMO.... LOL

generalpetres
04-06-2011, 10:50 PM
i keep the junk russian ammo for my ak. whats the point of spending a lot of money on a ar just to buy crap ammo to run thru it.

Fern
04-06-2011, 10:50 PM
Where in Occotillo? Or was it Occotillo Wells? I'm down for the next trip.

paul0660
04-06-2011, 10:52 PM
I have shot hundreds of POUNDS of x39 Wolf, without a problem. I bought a case of 9x18 Wolf from Sportsmans Guide, and within 20 rounds had FTF, popped primers, and bent firing pins in a PA63. I sent it back and they paid for shipping both ways as well.

Lesson? Wolf is good stuff, and they make bad batches. Try it before you warehouse it.

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 10:53 PM
not trying to discount the poor quality of the ammo but was the gun properly cleaned and lubed before the use of the steel cased ammo? The only reason i ask is i dont usually have any problems unless i switch between steel and brass cased ammo.
Cleaned? It had only been fired 100 rounds before. Im sure he did not lube the chamber...... Next time, I will have him carry a spray can of Pam cooking spray, just to make sure the steel shells extract.

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 10:54 PM
Where in Occotillo? Or was it Occotillo Wells? I'm down for the next trip.

I have never been to the actual wells.... this place is off the Imperial highway/52

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 10:58 PM
i keep the junk russian ammo for my ak. whats the point of spending a lot of money on a ar just to buy crap ammo to run thru it.

My point exactly. Save up enough pennies to buy $5.99 boxes of Federal XM193 Ball ammo...... or buy a cheaper rifle. People forget that junk ammo is not only a relaibility issue, but also an accuracy issue.

Stormtrooperthunder
04-06-2011, 11:01 PM
My MSAR fires all three without any problems, so I guess I am lucky. lol

bigthaiboy
04-06-2011, 11:06 PM
I didn't know anyone was even importing the laquer-coated ammo any more. All the Herters, Brown Bear, and Wolf I've bought in the last couple of years has been polymer-coated.

paul0660
04-06-2011, 11:06 PM
Cleaned? It had only been fired 100 rounds before. Im sure he did not lube the chamber...... Next time, I will have him carry a spray can of Pam cooking spray, just to make sure the steel shells extract.

Seriously, thank you for the warning about all cheap ammo.

mydogsmonkey
04-06-2011, 11:08 PM
its not junk ammo, its a junk gun, all my guns run wolf, including my ar15s, aks, etc, just be sure you got good guns that can run underpowered stuff reliably. the only difference between the two is the carbon left behind, the lower pressure, and shells not expanding and contracting the same, in turn just dirty, and hard on the extractor, jsut make sure your guns are good. my aks of course love wolf. again i've seen cheap guns not cycle federal correctly, it all comes down to the gun, not the ammo. every manufacturer makes bad ammo. anyway theres thousands of pages on this very argument, i'm done

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 11:12 PM
I didn't know anyone was even importing the laquer-coated ammo any more. All the Herters, Brown Bear, and Wolf I've bought in the last couple of years has been polymer-coated.

That's what it is....... either way, its not brass.

paul0660
04-06-2011, 11:14 PM
its not brass.

Well, duh. And it does not need to be.............duh. Man you have a lot of posts here.

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 11:18 PM
Again, I hate to say it, but when I fire MY good quality AR, I just don't want to pull the trigger so that I can hear a "bang". Actually, I want to realize the accuracy potential of the platform, not enjoy 3-4MOA groupings at 100 yards, and twice that at 200 yards with WOLF.... Is anyone here going to claim that you pay $1.50 less per box of ammo because it's accurate? Yes, you can run 87 octane in a Porsche, but it will run like S&%$ also.

TurboChrisB
04-06-2011, 11:20 PM
No, he wasted time and gas because he didn't bring the most BASIC of items withhim while out shooting in the desert. ONE of which is a rod so he could have cleared the round and continued on so he could figure out why HIS rifle wouldn't shoot the ammo that everyone elses sorted out rifle shoots effortlessly.


He waisted 3 hours of time, and probably more $$ in gas with his truck making that trip, only to have it ended short because of AMMO.... LOL

Stormtrooperthunder
04-06-2011, 11:22 PM
I get pretty good groupings with my MSAR using Tula, 2-3 MOA @ 100yrds.

If my gun cannot run lower quality ammo, then maybe I need a more reliable gun.

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 11:23 PM
No, he wasted time and gas because he didn't bring the most BASIC of items withhim while out shooting in the desert. ONE of which is a rod so he could have cleared the round and continued on so he could figure out why his RIFLE wouldn't shoot the ammo that everyone elses sorted out rifle shoots effortlessly.

Funny, I have logged easily 2000 rounds in the past 2 years, and never needed a damn cleaning rod at the range. He logged 40 rounds, and should have had one.... why? BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF AMMO HE WAS USING. I'm sorry, but Federal ejects.

comblock
04-06-2011, 11:24 PM
No problems with tula .223 from wallyworld in my cheapo delton.

nick
04-06-2011, 11:29 PM
I didn't know anyone was even importing the laquer-coated ammo any more. All the Herters, Brown Bear, and Wolf I've bought in the last couple of years has been polymer-coated.

Golden Tiger is still laquer-coated. It also happens to be my favorite 7.62x39 ammo. The only Russian ammo I've tried in an AR so far has been Golden Bear. Didn't have any issues.

missiontrails
04-06-2011, 11:29 PM
Well, duh. And it does not need to be.............duh. Man you have a lot of posts here.

Ya , you're right, polymer coated shells are the Cat's Meow:) So is CAA, Tapco, and NCSTAR.........

Stormtrooperthunder
04-06-2011, 11:32 PM
Ya , you're right, polymer coated shells are the Cat's Meow:)

They are actually, so much that Im reloading my Tula casings.

Droppin Deuces
04-06-2011, 11:42 PM
Tula fires and extracts every single time for me. No offense, but one problem and a lack of preparation on your part to deal with it doesn't mean it's crappy ammo. It just means you guys weren't prepared. Steel or no steel, I bet you guys don't drive all that way without a cleaning rod again, though;)

Sky_DiveR
04-06-2011, 11:48 PM
PAM cooking spray? Does that really help or just being sarcastic?

Reloading Tula? Are they boxer primed or are you reloading Berdan?

Sorry for the dumb questions. Wolf didn't run in my AR (so I sold 'em) and I thought all steel cased ammo are Berdan primed.

Philthy
04-06-2011, 11:51 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=413711

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR3fi1wCSmM

Droppin Deuces
04-06-2011, 11:52 PM
PAM cooking spray? Does that really help or just being sarcastic?

Reloading Tula? Are they boxer primed or are you reloading Berdan?

Sorry for the dumb questions. Wolf didn't run in my AR (so I sold 'em) and I thought all steel cased ammo are Berdan primed.

Tula is boxer primed. I've shot through thousands of rounds of it and just noticed the other day that the box said boxer primed...

D'oh :o

Themandalorian
04-06-2011, 11:59 PM
Russian ammo is amazing for my AK

chaseface
04-07-2011, 12:01 AM
Tula is Berdan primed. I have never had any issues with it in my Saiga .308, i've put a lotta rounds through my rifle, on more than one occasion over 400 rds through it in an afternoon without any FTF or FTE i just went home with a REALLY dirty gun haha. But I dont get 2-3 MOA with it like some people here claim. More like 5 MOA but then again its crap ammo out of a non-precision battle rifle.

BTW I can get better MOA with better ammo obviously but still cant break 2-3 MOA

chaseface
04-07-2011, 12:04 AM
I've seen some Tula calibers are boxer but the thousands of rounds of .308 I went through were most definitely Berdan primed

Sky_DiveR
04-07-2011, 12:07 AM
Tula is boxer primed. I've shot through thousands of rounds of it and just noticed the other day that the box said boxer primed...

D'oh :o

Looks like some Tula ammo is Boxer primed. Interesting....

chaseface
04-07-2011, 12:12 AM
Looks like some Tula ammo is Boxer primed. Interesting....

Yep, heres an example http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?products_id=2981&osCsid=06941ace018d477aea3816ec5f7dbbc7

Edit: oops thats handgun ammo... but still... boxer primed

Ryan in SD
04-07-2011, 12:19 AM
Shooting cheap ammo and not having a rod is the real issue.

At least it wasnt double charged and blow off his face, then Id make a thread about cheap ammo and a warning.

MrPlink
04-07-2011, 12:20 AM
funny...my AK cycles all of those with zero problems. I see the picture in your sig line and wonder why you let him buy an AR to begin with????

I was waitin for somebody to say this :D

chesterthehero
04-07-2011, 12:25 AM
if you are worried about your MOA why are you not using a bolt gun?

ive gone through thousands of rounds of wolf/tula and to date ive had 1 dented case that fired/cycled just fine and 1 bad primer... so in reality ive had 1 bad round out of thusands...

ill be more than happy to dispose of whatevers left.. i wont even charge you a disposal fee if you deliver it...

MrPlink
04-07-2011, 1:04 AM
Ya , you're right, polymer coated shells are the ..

Id love to hear your logical/fact based arguments against them

digitalelf
04-07-2011, 1:05 AM
if you are worried about your MOA why are you not using a bolt gun?

With the right set-up and right ammo, an AR is just as accurate and able to get as tight a group as a bolt gun...

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 1:09 AM
With the right set-up and right ammo, an AR is just as accurate and able to get as tight a group as a bolt gun...

Sure, but chances are if you're shooting a precision AR you built it for a reason and aren't going to be the guy complaining about how you got a lacquer coated case stuck in your chamber.

till44
04-07-2011, 6:22 AM
its not junk ammo, its a junk gun, all my guns run wolf, including my ar15s, aks, etc, just be sure you got good guns that can run underpowered stuff reliably. the only difference between the two is the carbon left behind, the lower pressure, and shells not expanding and contracting the same, in turn just dirty, and hard on the extractor, jsut make sure your guns are good. my aks of course love wolf. again i've seen cheap guns not cycle federal correctly, it all comes down to the gun, not the ammo. every manufacturer makes bad ammo. anyway theres thousands of pages on this very argument, i'm done

+1, I've put thousands of rounds through my ARs, hundreds of that has been Brown/Silver Bear, Wolf, Tula, and Golden Dragon. I've yet to have a problem with any of them. My Rem 700 does great with Wolf, I was consistently hitting 8" and 6" gongs at 400 last weekend with no problem.

TurboChrisB
04-07-2011, 6:57 AM
My kids and I shot over 1000 rounds of wolf my last WEEKEND in the desert without needing a cleaning rod.

Ignorance is bliss :rolleyes:


Funny, I have logged easily 2000 rounds in the past 2 years, and never needed a damn cleaning rod at the range. He logged 40 rounds, and should have had one.... why? BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF AMMO HE WAS USING. I'm sorry, but Federal ejects.

OneApart
04-07-2011, 7:15 AM
I have fed my two SKS's, and a Draco (which is now gone sadly) Russian steel cased ammo exclusively (literally thousands of rounds) 0 ammo related problems.

I have been told by many reliable sources that Steel Cased ammo does not work so well with the AR platform. (I have yet to try the combination, but most likely will stick to USA brass).

I just look at it like this:

Keep the Russian Ammo with the COMBLOC Piston Rifles.

straykiller
04-07-2011, 7:53 AM
My MSAR fires all three without any problems, so I guess I am lucky. lol

same here love my e4

shooterdude
04-07-2011, 8:17 AM
I have used Tula and Wolf in all my guns with no issues. For everyone who says that Russian ammo is bad there are many others who enjoy using it on a regular basis. I have yet to see any evidence of a "worn down extractor" on any forum.

FeuerFrei
04-07-2011, 8:24 AM
AFAIK the poly/lacquer coating is for the "steel" case protection.
Not there for feeding into your chamber easier.
I have found in my experience that an over gassed AR with a 556 NATO chamber will have these sticky case issues.
Many rifle length AR's don't experience this much at all. (556 NATO chamber)
I have fixed these issues with an adjustable gas blocks.
I used to "fix" these with buffer swaps and M16 carriers and or buffer spring swaps. Not all of these at once but usually a combo of the 3.
IMO it is easier to swap one part and adjust to the ammo. Get your AR reliable with any ammo because some day you may not have a choice about what brand you acquire.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 8:29 AM
Id love to hear your logical/fact based arguments against them

How about the fact that the military and LE would not let this stuff past the front door for duty use. Why do you think that is? Think of the money they could save... lol

BTW, this thread HAS NOTHING to do with AK's and SKS's...... for those who have chimed in to say "hey, it works great in my AK"..... well of course it does..... duh...

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 8:31 AM
its not junk ammo, its a junk gun

Ding ding ding!! Winner!!

If your gun can't shoot "crappy" ammo fix it or sell it.

Also, I bought 10,000 rounds of wolf back in 2005. I shot it all thinking it was burden prime. The last 500 I finally picked up the shell and looked at it. BOXER PRIME!!!! Noooooo!!!!

So now, I check all shells. So far Tula and Wolf I have is boxer prime. Harters are berdan prime.

For the title, it's sad. Starting more FUD... :(

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 8:37 AM
How about the fact that the military and LE would not let this stuff past the front door for duty use. Why do you think that is? Think of the money they could save... lol

BTW, this thread HAS NOTHING to do with AK's and SKS's...... for those who have chimed in to say "hey, it works great in my AK"..... well of course it does..... duh...

What's going to happen when you have your first glitch with brass ammo? Are you going to stop shooting?

PatriotnMore
04-07-2011, 8:48 AM
I have fed my two SKS's, and a Draco (which is now gone sadly) Russian steel cased ammo exclusively (literally thousands of rounds) 0 ammo related problems.

I have been told by many reliable sources that Steel Cased ammo does not work so well with the AR platform. (I have yet to try the combination, but most likely will stick to USA brass).

I just look at it like this:

Keep the Russian Ammo with the COMBLOC Piston Rifles.


I built my wife's and my AR, my son built his, we have countless rounds of Tula down the barrel with zero malfunction.

When it comes to mass fired ammo, I always assume there is a small percentage of bad ammo, I have been lucky over many years of shooting and hunting, I have never had an ammo problem.

I have had equipment problems/failures, and always bring tools with me in case, which include a cleaning rod, again, just in case.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 8:53 AM
What's going to happen when you have your first glitch with brass ammo? Are you going to stop shooting?

No, I'm going to continue to buy QUALITY ammo, and enjoy a cleaner and more accurate rifle. That was a stupid comment. I posted this thread, because over the course of two years, 95% of malfunction/performance based problem threads in here have had one common link: Steel cased dirty weaker ammo. When I told my brother not to waste his money on that crap, sure enough he had a malfunction that ended his day. There is not a damn thing wrong with his upper, it was the ammo.. period.

P08
04-07-2011, 8:56 AM
Sometimes if you let a live round of the lacquer ammo sit momentarily in a hot chamber, some of the lacquer transfers to the chamber walls. This cakes on, and can stick and glue subsequent rounds or constrict the chamber. Not all chambers are the same, some are tighter that others regardless of what the manufacturers claim about standardization. Always keep a rod and solvent with you when shooting the russian stuff if you are unfamiliar of its performance in your ar.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 8:57 AM
Here is a quality weapon manufacturer that agrees with my post:

http://www.cmmginc.com/pages/ammunition.html

C_1
04-07-2011, 8:58 AM
I have a BCM upper'd AR and it shoots everything. Wolf, Tula, Herters, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Golden Bear, Yellow Tiger, Purple Dragons, Blue Moons, and whatever else cheap ammo that I could find. My buddy has a LMT AR and no hiccups with the polymer coated ammo either. The way I see it, is if your gun is not running right, even with cheap ammo, maybe you should get rid of it. Bushmaster isnt the greatest and if you're looking for accuracy, use match ammo.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 9:06 AM
Oh no, a cheap manufacturer also: Ammunition warning:

http://www.del-ton.com/Terms.asp

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 9:20 AM
No, I'm going to continue to buy QUALITY ammo, and enjoy a cleaner and more accurate rifle. That was a stupid comment. I posted this thread, because over the course of two years, 95% of malfunction/performance based problem threads in here have had one common link: Steel cased dirty weaker ammo. When I told my brother not to waste his money on that crap, sure enough he had a malfunction that ended his day. There is not a damn thing wrong with his upper, it was the ammo.. period.

What ended his day was a lack of preparedness on both of your parts. I can't believe you would blame ammo for not having a simple countermeasure to a potential problem. THAT is stupid.

Do you guys also drive way out there without any small spare parts(springs, pins, extractors, etc.)?

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 9:22 AM
What's going to happen when you have your first glitch with brass ammo? Are you going to stop shooting?

Haha, he's gonna keep buying more and more expensive ammo because te higher the cost the better the ammo right? ;) lol

762.DEFENSE
04-07-2011, 9:27 AM
I've ran thousands of rounds of wolf, tula etc through my SKS, and AKs without an issue. I even just put 500 rounds of Tula steel cased .223 through my latest AR build without a problem... Just keep em wet and youre good to go.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
04-07-2011, 9:28 AM
Apparently, by mydogsmonkey's standards, my Colt SP1 was a junk gun also. Wolf ammo was the direct cause of a wrecked upper (separated case head). :rolleyes:

After that lesson, I follow the same standard as OneApart... Comblock ammo is for Comblock weapons. Everything's worked fine since.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 9:30 AM
What ended his day was a lack of preparedness on both of your parts. I can't believe you would blame ammo for not having a simple countermeasure to a potential problem. THAT is stupid.

Listen smart guy, pick up the phone and call Noveske, LWRC, and Stag... Ask them what they consider "Improper ammunition" to be..... all of their warranty disclaimers state VOID if improper ammo is used, they will ALL tell you that steel cased ammo IS part of what they consider improper. Many manufacturers will come right out and state on their websites that steel case is not recommended, others won't, as they will just state "improper ammunition" in their warranty disclaimers. Why do you think this is? Because all of these manufacturers are sick of the reliability/warranty issues relating to crap ammo. So, if you think its cute to go against what almost all manufacturers are trying to tell you, that's your business. I had a Colt Sporter in college, and I would sometimes buy Wolf because it was cheaper, and then I wondered my my rifle would jam 5-6 times per range session..... I had no clue back then.

Stainned
04-07-2011, 9:33 AM
Tula is crap in my AR's. No problem with Wolf though. I think I got a bad batch of Tula.

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 9:33 AM
VR3fi1wCSmM

There.

C_1
04-07-2011, 9:44 AM
Oh no, a cheap manufacturer also: Ammunition warning:

http://www.del-ton.com/Terms.asp

A lot of manufacturers warn against using the cheap, polymer coated, imported Russian ammo, and will void the warranty, if used. Del Ton, CMMG, Stag, RRA, DPMS, and a few other companies, have it printed in their manual.

I do like your analogy of using lower octane fuel in high performance cars, though. But if youre using your AR as a target shooter, then run good ammo through, like the expensive match stuff. But if your AR is your go-to, SHTF, etc etc rifle, you want it to work with the cheap stuff too.

But if you do a bit of research, most guys with BCM, LMT, DD, and other top tier AR manufacturers, have ran Wolf thru their guns with no problems. And most of the ones that have trouble with polymer coated ammo, are the guys with Bushmaster, Stag, CMMG, RRA, DPMS, Del Ton, and what not.

Either way, if youre using polymer coated ammo, make sure to clean the chamber really good, cuz the coating gums up the AR's action..

Agustav
04-07-2011, 9:46 AM
A reliable AR should be able to digest any ammo you feed it...

In my opinion reliably = quality.

Stainned
04-07-2011, 9:51 AM
VR3fi1wCSmM

There.

Great video. I will have to try the rest of my Tula in my 20".

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 9:56 AM
Ya think Larue recommends Tula in his Wilde chambers?

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 10:05 AM
Listen smart guy, pick up the phone and call Noveske, LWRC, and Stag... Ask them what they consider "Improper ammunition" to be..... all of their warranty disclaimers state VOID if improper ammo is used, they will ALL tell you that steel cased ammo IS part of what they consider improper. Many manufacturers will come right out and state on their websites that steel case is not recommended, others won't, as they will just state "improper ammunition" in their warranty disclaimers. Why do you think this is? Because all of these manufacturers are sick of the reliability/warranty issues relating to crap ammo. So, if you think its cute to go against what almost all manufacturers are trying to tell you, that's your business. I had a Colt Sporter in college, and I would sometimes buy Wolf because it was cheaper, and then I wondered my my rifle would jam 5-6 times per range session..... I had no clue back then.

Sorry to say it, but you don't seem to have a clue now, either.


Ya think Larue recommends Tula in his Wilde chambers?

Those are precision rifles. Your Ruger is not. Most LaRue owners roll their own and have no intention of simply plinking with their gun and don't shoot "high quality" Federal Wally World ammo through them either. Dumb question.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 10:06 AM
A reliable AR should be able to digest any ammo you feed it...

In my opinion reliably = quality.

Any of the above mentioned cheaper AR's will digest it, but at a less reliable rate. With every pull of the trigger there is a higher probability of failure with Russian ammo than with good brass cased American ammo. That's the point. So, for every 100 rounds you would like to save $8, then go for it.

titankeith
04-07-2011, 10:08 AM
I used Wolf .223 for my AR and .40 for my Glock 23 at Frontsight and very little problems...a couple of duds, but that was it. The key is (especially for the AR) is ya gotta clean the weapon very well each night...but the wolf worked, adn Frontsight doesn't allow reloads, os I go woith the cheap stuff....but I also have a nice selection of good stuff for, but I'm not going to through 100 rounds of good stuff for training...I'm not rich.
wolf works fine for that.

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 10:09 AM
And yes, I even keep a cleaning rod handy when shooting the LaRue, because you just never know. Scratch that. No one else does, but you do.

ZX-10R
04-07-2011, 10:16 AM
not trying to discount the poor quality of the ammo but was the gun properly cleaned and lubed before the use of the steel cased ammo? The only reason i ask is i dont usually have any problems unless i switch between steel and brass cased ammo.

This...Run your clean and wet.

donking
04-07-2011, 10:20 AM
Tula is crap in my AR's. No problem with Wolf though. I think I got a bad batch of Tula.

I've heard that Tula and Wolf are made at the same factory. It seems plausible as the packaging (2 rows of 10 cartridges in a plastic clip holder) is the same

Agustav
04-07-2011, 10:23 AM
I ran into a problem recently with my buddy... he was running brand new BCM upper and was running into problem with FTE with my reload. We had to do a few buttstock bump to dislodge the spend case.

When he posted the problem here, people automatically accuse the ammo. Since it's a BCM, it obviously can not be at fault! :rolleyes: However, on the same day I was using the same batch of reload with my cheap DPMS with no problem. What's the moral of the story, keep you gun well cleaned and lubed most problems goes away in an AR! Just because a upper is new, does not mean it's cleaned and lubed...

donking
04-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Here is another thought from a different thread
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6020535&postcount=7

Farva
04-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Between my AK47's Ive shot about 3000 rounds of various russian steel cased ammos, not once have I ever experienced a problem in my AKs.

Between the Mini 14 and the ARs, Ive shot about 1000 rounds of wolf ammo and had 1 mishap on the AR, and none in the Mini.

I dont see what all that hate is about. Lube you guns, they will shoot.

Also even put 500 rounds of .45ACP through my USP without an issue as well.

Paul_R
04-07-2011, 10:36 AM
Never had problems with the ammo but I have had problems with Bushmasters, FTE & FTF...just sayin...And yes I have one. It works great but I've had one in the past that was a flat out POS. It happens.

Ergo the Qualmed
04-07-2011, 10:37 AM
My SKS cannot handle Comblock ammo. Pierced primer every box, usually.

MontClaire
04-07-2011, 10:38 AM
Well, just like I warn people that they deserve what the get with garbage cheapo laquer coated Russian ammo...... My brother bought a bunch of the cheap Herters .223 ammo from Cabella's, against my warnings..... Sure enough he drove out to Ocotillo today to shoot, and after about 4 mags of the bargain basement stuff, one round gets jammed in the chamber of his almost brand new Bushmaster upper, would not extract, and after 15 minutes of trying to get it out, he had to call it a day. He did not have a rod with him to slide down the barrel and knock it out. :confused:

The ammo is not junk., Your brother's bushmaster is junk.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 10:55 AM
Sorry to say it, but you don't seem to have a clue now, either.




Those are precision rifles. Your Ruger is not. Most LaRue owners roll their own and have no intention of simply plinking with their gun and don't shoot "high quality" Federal Wally World ammo through them either. Dumb question.

Buddy, pick up the phone and call them yourself. Did I say somewhere that the SR-556 was a precision rifle?

Second, are you going to deny the fact that Russian ammo has a higher probability of failure with every pull of the trigger, compared to, uhh, real ammo? Just curious. That's my main point here.

And to the guys that say the Bushmaster upper is junk..... no comment on that, and I dont own any, but I will say that there is no way a Lake City Brass shell would have impregnated itself in his chamber, permanently. Real simple points here.

You guys seem to be very proud of the No-name Wolf spokesman in the video, obviously he does not work for any of the major manufacturers who actualy build and design rifles, because if he did, he would be saying "don't run this stuff through our rifles if you want to keep your warranty."

I have ruffled some feathers here, I have pissed of a bunch of people who must be sitting on stockpiles of spam tins, full of Wolf and the like. LOL.... Simple points made, but to the contrary, the consensus here is that steel case is every bit as reliable as brass cased American loads. Many here have said blame the rifle, not the below spec ammo. Wow. Sorry I brought it up.

Farva
04-07-2011, 11:03 AM
From my experiences, In AK rifles, Russian ammo is just as reliable as american loads, I see no point in spending the extra money for brass on AK styled rifles.

For ARs/223 rifles, as long as I keep the bolt wet I never seemed to have any problems that would keep me from buying it.

Handgun ammo, not to much experience with it but the 500 rounds I put through in my 45 worked just as fine as anything Ive got that was brass cased.

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 11:09 AM
Maybe when you see "many on here says" you should re-evaluate your point?

I think it's good that the guy in the video did a review on wolf. The case sticking in your brothers ar must of been a timing issue which the video pointed out. It's still not the ammo at fault. Your brother just has to fix the timing of the gun.

PatriotnMore
04-07-2011, 11:15 AM
Wolf also makes their "Gold" ammo which is brass and non magnetic. http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=117

IrishPirate
04-07-2011, 11:19 AM
my buddy's AR wouldn't cycle wolf so i traded him 1 for 1 with the ammo i had (all brass, different manufacturers). My SU-16 eats wolf without issue, but I don't like shooting steal cases too much because i've heard of extractors breaking and don't really want to run the risk. besides, there's brass cased stuff that's just as cheap all over the place now....no reason to save pennies and run the risk of jams, breaks and general crappy range visits.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Maybe when you see "many on here says" you should re-evaluate your point?

I think it's good that the guy in the video did a review on wolf. The case sticking in your brothers ar must of been a timing issue which the video pointed out. It's still not the ammo at fault. Your brother just has to fix the timing of the gun.

Re-evaluate my point? My point is not based on the Bushy upper, my point is:

1) WITH EVERY PULL OF THE TRIGGER, STEEL CASED AMMO PRESENTS A LARGER CHANCE OF FAILURE THAN AMERICAN BALL AMMO IN BRASS SHELLS.

2) RUSSIAN AMMO IS LESS ACCURATE THAN GOOD AMERICAN ROUNDS OF SIMILAR BULLET WEIGHTS.

3) RUSSIAN AMMO IS DIRTIER THAN AMERICAN STUFF.

Any Mall Ninja who would like to disagree with these points should re-evaluate their own denial. Anyone who blames a rifle for choaking on this crap from time to time, instead of blaming the ammo is just stupid.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Wolf also makes their "Gold" ammo which is brass and non magnetic. http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=117

Same price as Federal, so why buy it?

Ls1FALimpala
04-07-2011, 12:00 PM
My Ak will shoot russian steel case ammo all day but my fal won't it will jam constantly.

TurboChrisB
04-07-2011, 12:02 PM
No, the Point you made in your SECOND post in this thread, which was THIS

Mixing low grade imported non-brass ammo in AR's is just plain dumb.





Re-evaluate my point? My point is not based on the Bushy upper, my point is:

1) WITH EVERY PULL OF THE TRIGGER, STEEL CASED AMMO PRESENTS A LARGER CHANCE OF FAILURE THAN AMERICAN BALL AMMO IN BRASS SHELLS.

2) RUSSIAN AMMO IS LESS ACCURATE THAN GOOD AMERICAN ROUNDS OF SIMILAR BULLET WEIGHTS.

3) RUSSIAN AMMO IS DIRTIER THAN AMERICAN STUFF.

Any Mall Ninja who would like to disagree with these points should re-evaluate their own denial. Anyone who blames a rifle for choaking on this crap from time to time, instead of blaming the ammo is just stupid.

C_1
04-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Buddy, pick up the phone and call them yourself. Did I say somewhere that the SR-556 was a precision rifle?

Second, are you going to deny the fact that Russian ammo has a higher probability of failure with every pull of the trigger, compared to, uhh, real ammo? Just curious. That's my main point here.

And to the guys that say the Bushmaster upper is junk..... no comment on that, and I dont own any, but I will say that there is no way a Lake City Brass shell would have impregnated itself in his chamber, permanently. Real simple points here.

You guys seem to be very proud of the No-name Wolf spokesman in the video, obviously he does not work for any of the major manufacturers who actualy build and design rifles, because if he did, he would be saying "don't run this stuff through our rifles if you want to keep your warranty."

I have ruffled some feathers here, I have pissed of a bunch of people who must be sitting on stockpiles of spam tins, full of Wolf and the like. LOL.... Simple points made, but to the contrary, the consensus here is that steel case is every bit as reliable as brass cased American loads. Many here have said blame the rifle, not the below spec ammo. Wow. Sorry I brought it up.

Re-evaluate my point? My point is not based on the Bushy upper, my point is:

1) WITH EVERY PULL OF THE TRIGGER, STEEL CASED AMMO PRESENTS A LARGER CHANCE OF FAILURE THAN AMERICAN BALL AMMO IN BRASS SHELLS.

2) RUSSIAN AMMO IS LESS ACCURATE THAN GOOD AMERICAN ROUNDS OF SIMILAR BULLET WEIGHTS.

3) RUSSIAN AMMO IS DIRTIER THAN AMERICAN STUFF.

Any Mall Ninja who would like to disagree with these points should re-evaluate their own denial. Anyone who blames a rifle for choaking on this crap from time to time, instead of blaming the ammo is just stupid.


I dont think that is what everyone got from your post, but since you broke it down that way, no one is going to disagree that Wolf ammo is less reliable, less accurate and is dirtier, than "GOOD AMERICAN" ammo. You get what you pay for, but it doesnt mean that Wolf is junk.

What some folks, or I mean, what Im trying to say, is that with a good upper and BCG, thats well lubed, cycling that under powered, polymer coated, Russian ammo shouldnt be a problem. Yeah, your extractor wears out faster, and you have to clean your gun a bit more often, but you get to practice more with the cheap ammo.

But with everything, YMMV, and there are bad batches, plus, "stuff" happens. If the BM AR doesnt like the cheap stuff, youre stuck shooting brass. Your AK cleaning rod with an attachment from the buttstock cleaning kit didnt work? Probably too short.. But on every range trip, its a good idea to bring a cleaning rod, oil, solvent, and a few basic tools with ya..

And for the record, Im not pissed, but whats with the name calling? Hopefully Im not considered a mall ninja, because I agreed with your points, and I can never live up to gecko45's name :)

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 12:13 PM
Re-evaluate my point? My point is not based on the Bushy upper, my point is:

1) WITH EVERY PULL OF THE TRIGGER, STEEL CASED AMMO PRESENTS A LARGER CHANCE OF FAILURE THAN AMERICAN BALL AMMO IN BRASS SHELLS.

2) RUSSIAN AMMO IS LESS ACCURATE THAN GOOD AMERICAN ROUNDS OF SIMILAR BULLET WEIGHTS.

3) RUSSIAN AMMO IS DIRTIER THAN AMERICAN STUFF.

Any Mall Ninja who would like to disagree with these points should re-evaluate their own denial. Anyone who blames a rifle for choaking on this crap from time to time, instead of blaming the ammo is just stupid.

1. That still falls under your gun. Any AR type gun will stick if it is not well lubed. Again, operator/gun error, not ammo. lube it and it will go away.

2. "good quality" is the keyword here. Blackhills? Sure, it will shoot good but in certain guns. I've seen match grade ammo shot and group 1-2 inch out of certain guns and group sub-MOA in another. Sure, they shoot better then wolf but for trigger time and training, sure 5 bucks beats 20 bucks for the same amount of shooting time.

3. Again, it's the gun. If the gun cannot run a little dirty, fix it or sell it. It's not that wolf is dirtier, but steel does have the small issue of not expanding like brass causing more carbon build up in the chamber ( also pointed in te video ).

My point is this:

If I'm shooting at paper targets and at the range wolf is my go-to ammo. If I'm kicking down doors and chasing bad guys or home defense, "good quality" ammo is what I'll shoot.

Does that make wolf junk? Nope. It just means I can shoot more and prepare my muscle memory so when S does HTF I know I have the ability to do what I trained to. Sitting and thinking about shooting and trigger control doesn't make you better. Training the right way does. So the more shots down range with correct training just means you'll be that much more prepared. Shooting wolf just keeps my wallet and wife happy and my trigger time honed.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 12:18 PM
1. That still falls under your gun. Any AR type gun will stick if it is not well lubed. Again, operator/gun error, not ammo. lube it and it will go away.

2. "good quality" is the keyword here. Blackhills? Sure, it will shoot good but in certain guns. I've seen match grade ammo shot and group 1-2 inch out of certain guns and group sub-MOA in another. Sure, they shoot better then wolf but for trigger time and training, sure 5 bucks beats 20 bucks for the same amount of shooting time.

3. Again, it's the gun. If the gun cannot run a little dirty, fix it or sell it. It's not that wolf is dirtier, but steel does have the small issue of not expanding like brass causing more carbon build up in the chamber ( also pointed in te video ).

My point is this:

If I'm shooting at paper targets and at the range wolf is my go-to ammo. If I'm kicking down doors and chasing bad guys or home defense, "good quality" ammo is what I'll shoot.

Does that make wolf junk? Nope. It just means I can shoot more and prepare my muscle memory so when S does HTF I know I have the ability to do what I trained to. Sitting and thinking about shooting and trigger control doesn't make you better. Training the right way does. So the more shots down range with correct training just means you'll be that much more prepared. Shooting wolf just keeps my wallet and wife happy and my trigger time honed.

So what you are saying is that if a steel shell expands excessively and gets seriously stuck in the chamber, a "well lubed" AR will extact it?

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 12:25 PM
So what you are saying is that if a steel shell expands excessively and gets seriously stuck in the chamber, a "well lubed" AR will extact it?

Steel is springy and won't expand as much as brass. If any case is going to over expand, it's going to be the brass casing.

C_1
04-07-2011, 12:45 PM
So what you are saying is that if a steel shell expands excessively and gets seriously stuck in the chamber, a "well lubed" AR will extact it?

The brass casings are more likely to expand than its steel counterparts.

edit: thanks vintagearms!

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 1:13 PM
It's all in the timing of the gun. ;)

vintagearms
04-07-2011, 1:23 PM
The brass casings are more likely to expand than its steel counterparts. Its the polymer coating that jams it up. And thats why shooting polymer coated steel cased ammo, then going straight to brass, without cleaning the chamber and whatnot first, is not recommended.

NO! Its not the polymer coating. The steel casing doesn't expand and you get carbon blowback which gunks up the chamber causing the FTE.

Reductio
04-07-2011, 1:24 PM
Somebody just doesn't want to listen....

FWIW, I've dumped a few thousand rounds of russian crap out in BLM, and it's hella lot of fun. I wouldn't even dream of just plinking with my factory Black Hills match.

Stormtrooperthunder
04-07-2011, 1:26 PM
Re-evaluate my point? My point is not based on the Bushy upper, my point is:

1) WITH EVERY PULL OF THE TRIGGER, STEEL CASED AMMO PRESENTS A LARGER CHANCE OF FAILURE THAN AMERICAN BALL AMMO IN BRASS SHELLS.

2) RUSSIAN AMMO IS LESS ACCURATE THAN GOOD AMERICAN ROUNDS OF SIMILAR BULLET WEIGHTS.

3) RUSSIAN AMMO IS DIRTIER THAN AMERICAN STUFF.


1)Then I need a more reliable gun

2) If I am not target shooting then that argument is moot

3) Yea, but taking extra time to clean never killed anyone



Any Mall Ninja who would like to disagree with these points should re-evaluate their own denial.

Now youre just grasping at straws

Anyone who blames a rifle for choaking on this crap from time to time, instead of blaming the ammo is just stupid.

Nice ad hominem argument. You should come back once you can debate like an adult.

4thSBCT
04-07-2011, 1:27 PM
So what you are saying is that if a steel shell expands excessively and gets seriously stuck in the chamber, a "well lubed" AR will extact it?

I dunno if you knew this or not but steel is stronger than brass.....

Full Clip
04-07-2011, 1:29 PM
Whats the point of spending a lot of money on a ar just to buy crap ammo to run thru it.

This. Yes.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
That said, I've never had problems with my AKs or SKSs with Russian junk ammo.
But they were designed for it.

smle-man
04-07-2011, 1:32 PM
The only Wolf ammo that I've issues with have been 7.62x39. I've had rounds with no powder and rounds with powder but no primer and rounds with primer and powder but no flash holes in the case. I've got one of those sitting here next to my computer monitor. The .308 and .223 work fine for me although seem to be less 'oomph' in it than other makes. The .308 out of my 1919A4 makes a pretty spectacular fireball at the muzzle about every 10th round possibly from gasses collecting at the booster. Other ball ammo doesn't do this.

CWM4A1
04-07-2011, 1:39 PM
My goodness, so many interesting information.

Here's a simple one: If you gun don't cycle steel case ammo, something is WRONG with it, get it checked out. Although Wolf/TULA or other steel case are on the lower end of .223 spec, they should still cycle your gun.

Now, being able to cycle your gun with those ammo is different from being able to continuously shooting them without a glitch.

Steel case does not expand fast enough, that mean there will be hot and dirty gas flow in between the chamber and casing, this will start to cake up the chamber.

Steel case also is not elastic as copper, so once it's fired, it won't spring back a little like copper and that will add to difficulty to extract.

Combine both together, when you have a dirty enough chamber, steel case gets fire-form into the carbon build-up and you got a stuck case in the chamber that won't come out until you punch it out with a rod. Your gun would be jam-o-matic after that until you give it a good clean with a chamber brush.

Now, each manufacture built their chamber a little different; some are tight and some are a little bit loose. I've had Bushmaster barrel that will continue to shoot Wolf for 4-500rds until casing starts to get stuck, and CMMG & BCM barrel that would quit after around 90-100rds.

The role of Russian ammo is cheap plinking alternative, but one needs to understand it's limitation. On the other hand, if your life depends on it, get quality brass case ammo from known manufacture. Federal, Winchester, PMC, just to name a few. Avoid unknown such as Olympic or American Ammo. There are enough horror stories about them.

Lastly, for those who say their AK shoots russian ammo w/o issue, that's not apple to apple comparison. The taper for 5.56/.223 is much less than 7.62x39 or 5.45x39, so naturally those rounds are easier to extract in comparison, even when chamber is dirty.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 1:40 PM
Buy in bulk then.

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/820cf08c.jpg

ken worth
04-07-2011, 1:45 PM
I use Herters all the time in about 4 calibers, been through thousands of rounds , never ever had a problem. I like them because I have my own range and I am an old man who has trouble bending over to cleanup the spent casings so I use a long handled magnet.I have a brass wand also but it dumps as many as it picks up,but it picks up all the rocks.
I have been a Herters fan for quite a while now.

LovingTheYear1911
04-07-2011, 1:56 PM
Thats fine with me. While youre spending more on other ammo, I will continue buying Tula since my AR and Kel-tec fire them perfectly fine.

Quinc
04-07-2011, 1:59 PM
My AR and SKS have had zero issues with Wolf and Herters, I also have no problems hitting an 8x10" plate at 100 and 200yards with it. Not bad for .16 - .17 cents a round!

mosinnagantm9130
04-07-2011, 2:02 PM
I'm over 1K rds of wolf 7.62x39 with no troubles yet...

stix213
04-07-2011, 2:03 PM
I only shoot steel cased russian ammo from my AR, and it runs just fine, not a single jam or even bad round. Sounds like the gun, maintenance, or user. Plus I always have a cleaning rod every time I shoot; not sure why anyone would leave one at home when you can just always keep it in your rifle case.

--end know it all speech-- :p

Sydwaiz
04-07-2011, 2:13 PM
Ya , you're right, polymer coated shells are the Cat's Meow:) So is CAA, Tapco, and NCSTAR.........

Must be since you have a Tapco handguard on your AK... ;)

mocos
04-07-2011, 2:29 PM
Listen smart guy, pick up the phone and call Noveske, LWRC, and Stag... Ask them what they consider "Improper ammunition" to be..... all of their warranty disclaimers state VOID if improper ammo is used, they will ALL tell you that steel cased ammo IS part of what they consider improper. Many manufacturers will come right out and state on their websites that steel case is not recommended, others won't, as they will just state "improper ammunition" in their warranty disclaimers. Why do you think this is? Because all of these manufacturers are sick of the reliability/warranty issues relating to crap ammo. So, if you think its cute to go against what almost all manufacturers are trying to tell you, that's your business. I had a Colt Sporter in college, and I would sometimes buy Wolf because it was cheaper, and then I wondered my my rifle would jam 5-6 times per range session..... I had no clue back then.

I just retired a noveske 16 incher last year after an estimated 15,000 rds plus of wolf 62gr jhp... When it started to keyhole I tried a bunch of different brass cased ammo to include federal match 69ers....they all keyholed....so it wasn't wolfe. I don't clean it that often. I do keep it oiled and it ran like a greased pig. The noveske worked well 4-5 inches at 200 yds was plenty good.....best of all, I got to send downrange at least twice the amount of rounds over buying brass cased ammo at a higher price......and that is worth a bunch....

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 2:39 PM
I just retired a noveske 16 incher last year after an estimated 15,000 rds plus of wolf 62gr jhp... When it started to keyhole I tried a bunch of different brass cased ammo to include federal match 69ers....they all keyholed....so it wasn't wolfe. I don't clean it that often. I do keep it oiled and it ran like a greased pig. The noveske worked well 4-5 inches at 200 yds was plenty good.....best of all, I got to send downrange at least twice the amount of rounds over buying brass cased ammo at a higher price......and that is worth a bunch....

Comparing keyholing after "15,000 rounds" is a moot point... your barrel is done.

I almost get the sense in here that alot of you guys just don't but A grade ammo?

I have not once said that the Bushmaster or any other rifle will not cycle your B grade stuff.... again, it is simply less reliable, that's it. I swear, it's either black or white with alot of you guys.

Droppin Deuces
04-07-2011, 2:43 PM
Comparing keyholing after "15,000 rounds" is a moot point... your barrel is done.

I almost get the sense in here that alot of you guys just don't but A grade ammo?

I have not once said that the Bushmaster or any other rifle will not cycle your B grade stuff.... again, it is simply less reliable, that's it. I swear, it's either black or white with alot of you guys.

No, I'm pretty sure you were trying to convince everyone that IT'S CRAP, IT SUCKS, DON'T BUY IT OR YOU'RE STUPID AND CHEAP. I only buy A-Grade ****. I AIN'T GOT TIME TO SAVE MONEY. Or something along those lines.

What do you consider "A grade" ammo, anyway?

SickofSoCal
04-07-2011, 2:49 PM
What wrong with lacquer-coated ammo in an SKS or an AK?

shadow65
04-07-2011, 2:52 PM
I have fired 1000's of rounds of Wolf. I have had one case stick in an AR chamber and 2 of the Laquer coated stick in a mini 14.
I will not own a rifle that does not cycle Wolf. You never know when thats all you will have.
Dave

Ryan in SD
04-07-2011, 3:14 PM
So what I gain from this thread is that if my gun cant shoot wolf then the ammo is the problem???

Then why can many other guns including my keltec 16, 1911, springfield xd, etc etc shoot wolf all day long?

Sounds like if your gun can tshoot wolf its a nancy gun that needs some tweaking. Maybe tolerances are too tight? needs to be cleaned?

I wouldnt talk crap until you clean your gun and try again.

infernl
04-07-2011, 3:15 PM
Sad, another rifle that won't eat steel. My buddies' upper seem to hate the stuff too, but my own AR (M&P15 lower, 5.56 mil spec Stag 2HT upper) LOVES TO EAT STEEL.

I feel sorry for the guy who has no choice but to $pend extra to shoot their rifles...

(I currently have about 2500 rounds of Wolf .223 waiting to be abused...)
If you've got extra you don't want - I'll take it off your hands...

shooterdude
04-07-2011, 3:24 PM
I just retired a noveske 16 incher last year after an estimated 15,000 rds plus of wolf 62gr jhp... When it started to keyhole I tried a bunch of different brass cased ammo to include federal match 69ers....they all keyholed....so it wasn't wolfe. I don't clean it that often. I do keep it oiled and it ran like a greased pig. The noveske worked well 4-5 inches at 200 yds was plenty good.....best of all, I got to send downrange at least twice the amount of rounds over buying brass cased ammo at a higher price......and that is worth a bunch....

Comparing keyholing after "15,000 rounds" is a moot point... your barrel is done.

I almost get the sense in here that alot of you guys just don't but A grade ammo?

I have not once said that the Bushmaster or any other rifle will not cycle your B grade stuff.... again, it is simply less reliable, that's it. I swear, it's either black or white with alot of you guys.

A new barrel is a few hundred $. Compared to the cost savings in using Wolf over a period of years and thousands of rounds this is a no brainer...use the Wolf.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 3:30 PM
Anyone who chimes in here with "my handgun eats steel", or "my AK eats steel"... no s___! I have a Glock 21, and steel works great, in fact, I have shot it about 8 times and never cleaned it. My WASR's in the past ate steel, hell, that's what they test fire those with in the small factories. IMO, an AK is more reliable than an AR, similar to my Glock as far as handguns go. But for expensive AR's... why? Like I said, when I pull the trigger on the M6A3 or the SR-556..... I want more than to just hear the rifle go bang, and make a hole somewhere down range..... I want close to the best that the rifle has to offer, and that means GOOD full pressure brass cased rounds. I don't shoot once per day.... I shoot a couple times per month.... so I look forward to 99% reliability and clean burning/accurate rounds.

missiontrails
04-07-2011, 3:33 PM
Must be since you have a Tapco handguard on your AK... ;)

KVAR lol:)

mif_slim
04-07-2011, 3:38 PM
I shoot a couple times per month...

The more reason to shoot wolf, but it's your $ and you can spend it on what you want.

For me I don't shoot a few times per month, I shoot a few times per WEEK. So wolf is good for me, but since I started reloading I won't buy factory anymore. ;)

Arisaka
04-07-2011, 3:56 PM
Ulyanovsk/TulAmmo is damn near all I shoot. I think it rocks, actually I had more problems with the Federal WalMart bulk pack ammo....

JPZ
04-07-2011, 4:02 PM
ran a few hundred rounds of tula through my AR, lauer lower/bushy upper

ran like a dream just a bit dirty. yeah not as sharp as my privi 5.56 but hell i didnt expect it to be.

mocos
04-07-2011, 5:06 PM
the keyholing was to indicate a milestone of some sort...prior to that, the only malfunctions incurred were caused by lack of cleaning and oiling..failure to eject and not pick up the next round....couple squirts of mobil 1 on the gas rings and lugs and was off and running again. Grade "A" ammo is relative..the wolf is the best match for my intended use.....don't need to go broke on smk's when your targets are under 50yds.....It just needs to go bang every time....and does for me.


Comparing keyholing after "15,000 rounds" is a moot point... your barrel is done.

I almost get the sense in here that alot of you guys just don't but A grade ammo?

I have not once said that the Bushmaster or any other rifle will not cycle your B grade stuff.... again, it is simply less reliable, that's it. I swear, it's either black or white with alot of you guys.

metalliman545
04-07-2011, 5:52 PM
Troll,

rattlesnake_nm
04-07-2011, 6:03 PM
I just want to warn people about cheapo ars, that are junk and don't run steel cased ammo :)

loosewreck
04-07-2011, 6:08 PM
I actually read this whole thread, but the 1st thing I thought after reading the initial post was that the ammo isn't necessarily the culprit.

shooterdude
04-07-2011, 6:33 PM
I just want to warn people about cheapo ars, that are junk and don't run steel cased ammo :)

ROFLMAO

i<3HK
04-07-2011, 6:56 PM
Been shooting Wolf through my Colt HBAR for the past 5 months and there hasn't been any problems so far


I actually read this whole thread, but the 1st thing I thought after reading the initial post was that the ammo isn't necessarily the culprit.
:iagree:

cdtx2001
04-07-2011, 7:00 PM
I can't be happier with the cheapo Russian ammo for my SKS. I'd never use it in anything else, but cheap Russian ammo for cheap Russian guns is a match made in Soviet heaven.

GM4spd
04-07-2011, 7:53 PM
I just want to warn people about cheapo ars, that are junk and don't run steel cased ammo :)

My thoughts exactly---that's why I have a SIG 556 and not an AR. The
SIG loves the steel case. No more DI rifles for me. Pete

FS00008
04-07-2011, 9:12 PM
Reload. /thread.

That being said, I have put thousands upon thousands of rounds of wolf downrange through a variety of ARs. Never had an issue. Yes, its dirtier, not as accurate, but works the same for 3-gun.

locosway
04-07-2011, 9:26 PM
Well, just like I warn people that they deserve what the get with garbage cheapo laquer coated Russian ammo...... My brother bought a bunch of the cheap Herters .223 ammo from Cabella's, against my warnings..... Sure enough he drove out to Ocotillo today to shoot, and after about 4 mags of the bargain basement stuff, one round gets jammed in the chamber of his almost brand new Bushmaster upper, would not extract, and after 15 minutes of trying to get it out, he had to call it a day. He did not have a rod with him to slide down the barrel and knock it out. :confused:

1) It's not a lacquer coating, so do some more research.

2) The ammo isn't junk, his rifle is.

3) See the above two. ;)

Arisaka
04-07-2011, 9:42 PM
ummm my del-ton was cheap and it chews up any ammo I feed it. glad I didn't waste my $$$$ on a bushmaster....

infernl
04-08-2011, 9:06 AM
So wolf is good for me, but since I started reloading I won't buy factory anymore. ;)

You plan to reload Wolf?
I love the stuff, but I wouldn't think of reloading steel.

m1a1driver
04-08-2011, 11:25 AM
I've had problems with the stuff in my AR after I fire about 150-200 rnds, then I start getting rounds stuck in chamber, then comes the dreaded ripped case rim... It just feels like something is building up in the chamber and making it smaller, probably carbon build up.

mif_slim
04-08-2011, 11:34 AM
You plan to reload Wolf?
I love the stuff, but I wouldn't think of reloading steel.

I have reloaded Tula and wolf. I use them for hunting where I don't have to worry about picking them up.

Mezcalfud
04-08-2011, 11:39 AM
Thousands of rounds of corrosive Russian surplus 5.45x39 through a 5.45 AR and only magazine issues.

Thousands of rounds of Herters and Tula 62g through a Bravo middy and no problems.

brownfeathermedic
04-08-2011, 4:05 PM
Ammo's a funny thing. I use Good stuff and Cheapo stuff in my Bushy,and it functions flawlessly. the only hasle is setting your sites to every ammo change.Every batch of Factory ammo will fire differently IMHO.

missiontrails
04-08-2011, 4:40 PM
OK, im gonna buy 200 rounds of the Herters brown crap from my brother and see how it runs through the GPU, on gas position 2.

RAMCHARGER
04-08-2011, 5:16 PM
I have a Armalite mid-length upper on my AR and when ObArry was elected there was no "brass" ammo to be found. So I bought nothing but bulk amounts of Either brown bear or silver bear (don't recall now) when the little gun shop I go to got them in. But I kid you not, there was no malfuction what so ever the entire time I was using the ammo. Just kept the BCG well lubed with Mobil1 :)
Accuracy? I swiss cheesed hard drives at 100 yards and they are around 4"x6"?

missiontrails
04-08-2011, 5:17 PM
I have a Armalite mid-length upper on my AR and when ObArry was elected there was no "brass" ammo to be found. So I bought nothing but bulk amounts of Either brown bear or silver bear (don't recall now) when the little gun shop I go to got them in. But I kid you not, there was no malfuction what so ever the entire time I was using the ammo. Just kept the BCG well lubed with Mobil1 :)
Accuracy? I swiss cheesed hard drives at 100 yards and they are around 4"x6"?

Seagates?

missiontrails
04-08-2011, 6:06 PM
So, let me guess.... his rifle is a POS also...according to most in this thread...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=418782

stix213
04-08-2011, 6:15 PM
So, let me guess.... his rifle is a POS also...according to most in this thread...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=418782

Trouble with shooting low power steel cased ammo is a well known issue with the SR 556 proprietary piston gun. Its even discussed in a Nutnfancy vid as seen in his own testing. Its the rifle design.

rspar
04-08-2011, 6:18 PM
My Saiga feeds Herters all day no problem ~500 rounds no bad ones yet.

$P-Ritch$
04-08-2011, 6:33 PM
Trouble with shooting low power steel cased ammo is a well known issue with the SR 556 proprietary piston gun. Its even discussed in a Nutnfancy vid as seen in his own testing. Its the rifle design.

I wonder if it's due to the increased mass of the BCG and/or gas system having to push a piston/oprod. I've noticed my two DI AR's eat up Tula. Every forth or fifth mag the bolt won't hold open, but that's it. It cycles and shoots perfectly.

Then with my Addax ATAC GPU, not often, but occassionally enough to be noticed, it will eject a casing but fail to strip the next round. Like the bolt only went about 7/8 of the way back.

I've never had any issues with stuck casings with any of my ARs and about 90% of what they are fed is Tula. I don't anything fancy to clean them either. Just three runs of a bore snake down the barrel and a wipe down with a rag then re-lube. Nothing more.

missiontrails
04-08-2011, 6:47 PM
I'm still gonna excercise all pre-failure precautions, and run 200 rounds of Herters through my SR-556.

pyro3k2
04-08-2011, 7:05 PM
If it's still acting up with ammo you should have him sell his AR and get a saiga :)

sleepercar
04-08-2011, 7:11 PM
Just give me the ammo already. Then we can end this once and for all.

BroncoBob
04-08-2011, 8:10 PM
I've ran thousands of rounds of wolf ammo through my AR's never once experienced any issues. You just have to clean a little better and more often.

mif_slim
04-08-2011, 8:37 PM
I'm making a video for you. ;)

1337Grenadier
04-08-2011, 9:20 PM
Here is a quality weapon manufacturer that agrees with my post:

http://www.cmmginc.com/pages/ammunition.html


:laugh:

Example of CMMG quality
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=533248
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/shortrifling.jpg

Notice how they forgot to put lands and grooves in the last 1/4" of barrel.

On the original topic I have to say that my BCM and even my buddy's lowly model 1 sales eat up the Russian steel ammo like candy.

pyro3k2
04-08-2011, 9:40 PM
:laugh:

Example of CMMG quality
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=533248
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/shortrifling.jpg

Notice how they forgot to put lands and grooves in the last 1/4" of barrel.

On the original topic I have to say that my BCM and even my buddy's lowly model 1 sales eat up the Russian steel ammo like candy.

CMMG does make quality AR's, yes there will be some failures in the QC department, but what firearm company has NEVER had a "bad" product shipped out. Now if this were a Century built AR my post would be completely opposite.

Justintoxicated
04-08-2011, 9:54 PM
I have never had an issue with silver bear in my AR's its pretty accurate too.
It extracts fine...

If it was my gun, I'd at least check the headspace (and spend rounds) if I was having issues before claming its because of steel ammo.

missiontrails
04-08-2011, 11:08 PM
So what I gain from this thread is that if my gun cant shoot wolf then the ammo is the problem???

Then why can many other guns including my keltec 16, 1911, springfield xd, etc etc shoot wolf all day long?

Sounds like if your gun can tshoot wolf its a nancy gun that needs some tweaking. Maybe tolerances are too tight? needs to be cleaned?

I wouldnt talk crap until you clean your gun and try again.

I have never had an issue with silver bear in my AR's its pretty accurate too.
It extracts fine...

If it was my gun, I'd at least check the headspace (and spend rounds) if I was having issues before claming its because of steel ammo.

Silverbear is Zinc coated, and Brownbear IS lacquered.

locosway
04-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Silverbear is Zinc coated, and Brownbear IS lacquered.

Are you telling people ammo is lacquered coated again when it's not?

missiontrails
04-08-2011, 11:12 PM
:laugh:

Example of CMMG quality
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=533248
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/shortrifling.jpg

Notice how they forgot to put lands and grooves in the last 1/4" of barrel.

On the original topic I have to say that my BCM and even my buddy's lowly model 1 sales eat up the Russian steel ammo like candy.

CMMG DOES make good quality weapons. No proof that's a CMMG barrel either. If it is a CMMG, so what.... I had a brand new Noveske Recce Basic upper that was such a POS that Noveske upgraded me to a Recce Low Profile upper. Was my Recce Basic upper "an example of Noveske quality"? Answer: Hell No.

$P-Ritch$
04-08-2011, 11:50 PM
Are you telling people ammo is lacquered coated again when it's not?

I don't know if it has changed recently, but according to the online retailer JG Sales and this depiction of the box Brown Bear is in fact lacquer coated. I know that Tula and Wolf produced in the last few years has since been made with a polymer coating. I have not heard anything about Brown Bear making any changes.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/ammo-for-rifles/223-rem-5-56mm-nato-/p/223-brown-bear-55gr-fmj-bi-metal%2C-1000rds-/cPath/12_38/products_id/2618

According to that myth video previously posted, which I whole-heartedly agree with, neither the polymer nor lacquer used on case coatings can melt with normal semi auto use. That build up that occurs is in fact carbon due to the expansion characteristics of steel vs. brass.

rifle man
04-09-2011, 1:04 AM
Makes you wonder WTF! This upper works for some but not others, this ammo works fine for you but not for me. Is it lack of knowledge, lack of maintenance. Is it the aliment of the planets? My stag functions perfectly using cheap or high grade ammo. Things that make you say WTF.

Ak707
04-09-2011, 4:36 AM
im gonna go shoot some wolf ammo this weekend just out of curiosity if my rifle will eat it!

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 7:08 AM
Are you telling people ammo is lacquered coated again when it's not?

Uninformed people in here are really getting on my nerves...... scroll down this page and READ.....
http://palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php

Brownbear IS lacquered!!!

locosway
04-09-2011, 7:22 AM
Uninformed people in here are really getting on my nerves...... scroll down this page and READ.....
http://palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php

Brownbear IS lacquered!!!

And I can show you a dozen to your one website that says they're polymer coated and no lacquered. The old Russian ammo was lacquered coated, the don't use lacquer any more, it's all polymer coating.

locosway
04-09-2011, 7:23 AM
Uninformed people in here are really getting on my nerves...... scroll down this page and READ.....
http://palmettostatearmory.com/223-556-ammo.php

Brownbear IS lacquered!!!

In fact, since I'm so uninformed, have you ever shot real lacquered coated ammo? I can assure you, that if you did, you would know the difference.

metalliman545
04-09-2011, 7:26 AM
Who shoots brown bear?

locosway
04-09-2011, 7:27 AM
Who shoots brown bear?

I do, no issues so far.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 7:42 AM
In fact, since I'm so uninformed, have you ever shot real lacquered coated ammo? I can assure you, that if you did, you would know the difference.

I don't shoot it. The last time I did was in my WASR, and in my SKS before that.

rattlesnake_nm
04-09-2011, 8:36 AM
Who shoots brown bear?

I do all the time. Zero issues. I actually prefer it over wolf tula etc. I just got 1000 rounds in from j and g sales. My bcm eats it up like candy.

mif_slim
04-09-2011, 9:02 AM
Lol, everyone who been posting in here is uninformed but missiontrails.
We need to make him a Calgun mod. :D

$P-Ritch$
04-09-2011, 9:08 AM
In fact, since I'm so uninformed, have you ever shot real lacquered coated ammo? I can assure you, that if you did, you would know the difference.

http://www.dkgtrading.com/bearammo/index.html

I always thought that brown bear seemed a bit more glossy than wolf or Tula. This is the bear brand's importer, according to their website which was updated in 2010 they are still saying it is lacquer coated.

Now before anyone gets mad, I will point again to the myth video. Neither lacquer nor polymer can get hot enough to melt off the casing in an AR. If your AR cannot shoot "junk" ammo then it is probably your AR that is junk, IMHO.

$P-Ritch$
04-09-2011, 9:10 AM
Lol, everyone who been posting in here is uninformed but missiontrails.
We need to make him a Calgun mod. :D

Hey, if you are talking about the brown bear being lacquer coated, I was on his side. See my above post. :)

sleepercar
04-09-2011, 10:04 AM
To the OP; Are you trying to inform us, or drill it into our heads? Truth of the matter is that although this may have been your experience, it may have not necessarily been everyone elses.
I have had no problems with this ammo. I'm sorry you witnessed this through your buddy.
You gave us the so called "heads up" and we thank you for that.
But I don't understand what your purpose is after that. Is it really worth going back and forth because some of us don't share your beliefs?

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 10:16 AM
To the OP; Are you trying to inform us, or drill it into our heads? Truth of the matter is that although this may have been your experience, it may have not necessarily been everyone elses.
I have had no problems with this ammo. I'm sorry you witnessed this through your buddy.
You gave us the so called "heads up" and we thank you for that.
But I don't understand what your purpose is after that. Is it really worth going back and forth because some of us don't share your beliefs?

No, the purpose of the post was not to re-invent the wheel, and not to give "heads up" to people in here who are already well informed. My main point was, and I have been paying close attention to this, that the majoroty of time I read a post here about someone elses FTE, FTF, or other failure.....the question usually comes up "what ammo were you using?" EVERY time it seems that it's Russian. My brother is not hurting for $$, but sometimes he thinks spending less is better, and when he mentioned that he could get 500 rounds of steel cased Russian stuff for $130, I told him that he may have issues. Sure enough, he ran it through a near new BIG name brand, well lubed upper, and he suffered a failure. When you can buy 400 rounds of new load BRASS Federal boxer primed Ball ammo for $129 (XM193, OR XM855), why would you even bother BUYING, STORING, OR SHOOTING Russian through an AR? It seems here that nobody wants to admit that Russian stuff is inferior, and the ONLY reason to shoot it is to save $$$. Some AR's may eat dog food with high reliability, but there are many AR's out there that are also high quality that may need brass, due to tighter tolerances. If SHTF, hopefully you have a stockpile of whatever the HIGHEST quality stuff is........ it's not like you are just gonna find Russian ammo laying in the street.

negolien
04-09-2011, 10:22 AM
"He did not have a rod with him to slide down the barrel and knock it out."

Yup nothing like not being prepared eh lol. I have my Voodoo tactical bag stuffed with everything I may need "Just in case". All my firearms tools travel with me and cleaning kits. As for the malfunction if he had a rod wouldn't have been an issue. I'd much rather save several hundred dollars a trip and carry a rod with me after all it's just target practice. If your weapon can't handle not optimal ammo then your gonna be hurting in the RW come SHTF day. I really don't think there's gonna be a huge supply of Federal BTs floating around after the Apocalypse. Speaking of this that's a good topic to start talking about. Will your weapons run when the SHTF?

mif_slim
04-09-2011, 10:55 AM
After all these people telling him what it is the OP still can't see that it's a TIMING issue?! Wow. :facepalm:

cmace22
04-09-2011, 10:55 AM
Lets use some logic here...

If AK's, SKS's, SU16's, Mini 14's, SCARS and so on and so on report few if any issues with wolf ammo but a lot of AR owner have issues..... Its OBVIOUSLY the rifle either by design or by set up.

If some AR's work and some dont its a set up/tolerance/user issue NOT the ammo.

If my AR cannot run crappy ammo I will fix or replace my AR because the issue is with my rifle.... I have no pans on running "grade A" 25 dollar boxes of ammo through my rifles or handguns. If you do then by all means ***** away at how the crappy ammo isnt worth using. I would much prefer function over form, reliability over accuracy and low cost ammo over high dollar ammo.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 10:57 AM
"He did not have a rod with him to slide down the barrel and knock it out."

Yup nothing like not being prepared eh lol. I have my Voodoo tactical bag stuffed with everything I may need "Just in case". All my firearms tools travel with me and cleaning kits. As for the malfunction if he had a rod wouldn't have been an issue. I'd much rather save several hundred dollars a trip and carry a rod with me after all it's just target practice. If your weapon can't handle not optimal ammo then your gonna be hurting in the RW come SHTF day. I really don't think there's gonna be a huge supply of Federal BTs floating around after the Apocalypse. Speaking of this that's a good topic to start talking about. Will your weapons run when the SHTF?

I am SMART enough to stockpile good ammo, so that people will be coming to me and paying more than GOLD for it. I will not be the one with my pants down looking and begging for Russian.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 11:03 AM
Lets use some logic here...

If AK's, SKS's, SU16's, Mini 14's, SCARS and so on and so on report few if any issues with wolf ammo but a lot of AR owner have issues..... Its OBVIOUSLY the rifle either by design or by set up.

If some AR's work and some dont its a set up/tolerance/user issue NOT the ammo.

If my AR cannot run crappy ammo I will fix or replace my AR because the issue is with my rifle.... I have no pans on running "grade A" 25 dollar boxes of ammo through my rifles or handguns. If you do then by all means ***** away at how the crappy ammo isnt worth using. I would much prefer function over form, reliability over accuracy and low cost ammo over high dollar ammo.
WRONG. Here in America, where AR's are designed, they are designed around ammo that is designed and issued here, not what forgery ammo comes out of some Eastern Block country or third world nation. Are there any boxes stamped "NATO" that contain steel cased ammo in 5.56 caliber? Again, why do you think so many top AR manufacturers say to stay away from steel ammo?

cmace22
04-09-2011, 11:09 AM
WRONG. Here in America, where AR's are designed, they are designed around ammo that is designed and issued here, not what forgery ammo comes out of some Eastern Block country or third world nation. Are there any boxes stamped "NATO" that contain steel cased ammo in 5.56 caliber? Again, why do you think so many top AR manufacturers say to stay away from steel ammo?


:rolleyes:

Doesnt the AR have a history of ammo related problems....

Or another way of looking at it was a design issue with the rifle itself....

Cant get it dirty, cant run it dry, have to run "grade A" American ammo or it jams ROTFL.


Your logic is flawed and your argument is lacking.

mif_slim
04-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Here in America, where AR's are designed, they are designed around ammo that is designed and issued here, not what forgery ammo comes out of some Eastern Block country or third world nation. Are there any boxes stamped "NATO" that contain steel cased ammo in 5.56 caliber?

Last I checked Hornady made steel cased training ammo. It's made in the US, we must be located in Europe or a 3rd world country. Lol.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 11:18 AM
:rolleyes:

Doesnt the AR have a history of ammo related problems....

Or another way of looking at it was a design issue with the rifle itself....

Cant get it dirty, cant run it dry, have to run "grade A" American ammo or it jams ROTFL.


Your logic is flawed and your argument is lacking.
My argument is RUN THE WEAPON FOR WHAT IT IS OPTIMISED FOR. Is that lacking? Run your Porsche for what it was optimised for: 92 octane, not 87 because it still drives and 87 costs less. My weapons are optimised for 5.56, although .223 will work. Using .223 thats low grade, in powder, in primers, and in casings...... Is not what the weapons were designed around. I did not design them, I am only an end-user. Go ahead, be cute, and run your Porsche on 87, but you will eventually have problems, a dirtier engine, and less power, and eventually greater failure.

Did you know that the KAC MK11 will run on only a few kinds of .308?

luckystrike
04-09-2011, 11:28 AM
Russian ammo has a higher probability of failure with every pull of the trigger, compared to, uhh, real ammo?


I am intrigued as of what you definition of "real ammo" is.......please enlighten me

Droppin Deuces
04-09-2011, 11:31 AM
No, the purpose of the post was not to re-invent the wheel, and not to give "heads up" to people in here who are already well informed. My main point was, and I have been paying close attention to this, that the majoroty of time I read a post here about someone elses FTE, FTF, or other failure.....the question usually comes up "what ammo were you using?" EVERY time it seems that it's Russian. My brother is not hurting for $$, but sometimes he thinks spending less is better, and when he mentioned that he could get 500 rounds of steel cased Russian stuff for $130, I told him that he may have issues. Sure enough, he ran it through a near new BIG name brand, well lubed upper, and he suffered a failure. When you can buy 400 rounds of new load BRASS Federal boxer primed Ball ammo for $129 (XM193, OR XM855), why would you even bother BUYING, STORING, OR SHOOTING Russian through an AR? It seems here that nobody wants to admit that Russian stuff is inferior, and the ONLY reason to shoot it is to save $$$. SomeMANY AR's may eat dog food with high reliability, but there are manyA FEW AR's out there that are also high qualityVERY FINNICKY that may need brass, due to tighter tolerancesPOOR QUALITY. If SHTF, hopefully you have a stockpile of whatever the HIGHEST quality stuff is........ it's not like you are just gonna find Russian ammo laying in the street.

Or any ammo, for that matter.

mif_slim
04-09-2011, 11:35 AM
Alright I been playing around too much here, but here is a more serious reply to your issue:

AR were design to cycle the bolt with a 20" barrel, there is a reason why the gas hole is put where it is, to correctly time the bolt with the gas. Now change that barrel to 16" and put the hole closer, not you have a issue with timing. The stuck case in your brothers gun is because the bolt is opening before it's suppose to causing cracked/stuck casing. It's ripping the case before it's suppose to eject.

To fix that problem, use a FA BCG or heavier spring and buffer which should slow down the dwell.

Is it the ammo's fault? No, not really although the only thing that te ammo can be blamed is that it doesn't have enough power as most brass ammo. Other then that I would say it's 90% AR, 10% ammo.

Thats my honest reply to you ad your brothers situation. ;)

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 11:36 AM
I am intrigued as of what you definition of "real ammo" is.......please enlighten me

Wow. Are you another who is going to equate Russian ammo to Federal, Black Hills, Winchester, Hornady, Fiochi, and the like? Unreal.. Just admit that using low grade ammo is strictly a cost saving issue. There IS NO OTHER REASON TO USE IT. I cant believe the pride of Russian loads among you people.

I am going to buy some, but with the understanding that i'm buying inferior grade stuff.

You are now enlightened.

hnoppenberger
04-09-2011, 11:38 AM
ar is a percision platform, however ive shot plenty of silver bear through them without a problem.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 11:42 AM
Alright I been playing around too much here, but here is a more serious reply to your issue:

AR were design to cycle the bolt with a 20" barrel, there is a reason why the gas hole is put where it is, to correctly time the bolt with the gas. Now change that barrel to 16" and put the hole closer, not you have a issue with timing. The stuck case in your brothers gun is because the bolt is opening before it's suppose to causing cracked/stuck casing. It's ripping the case before it's suppose to eject.

To fix that problem, use a FA BCG or heavier spring and buffer which should slow down the dwell.

Is it the ammo's fault? No, not really although the only thing that te ammo can be blamed is that it doesn't have enough power as most brass ammo. Other then that I would say it's 90% AR, 10% ammo.

Thats my honest reply to you ad your brothers situation. ;)

I understand the dwell issue. However, when barrels are made, they have a gas port hole drilled to a certain size, the size is dictated by the caliber marking on the barrel... because various calibers are loaded to combust with certain pressures. 5.56 is a higher pressure round than .223, and the power/primer combo found in much of the "cheap" ammo is under what the weapon was optimised for. That would be an ammo issue. If the barrel is stamped 5.56, I would think that means more than just chamber size. The question is, do 5.56 rifles have a ever so slightly smaller gas port to account for the higher pressure, and to .223 rifles have a slightly larger gas port to account for lower pressure loads, and to allow for more gas pressure to make it into the action?

mif_slim
04-09-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm looking at my 20" barrel and my 16" barrel, their both the same size port hole marked for 5.56. My 16" shoots the wolf fine because I have a FA BCG. My recently made 16" had extraction marks so I swap BCG and it went away. Tell your brother to swap parts to test-n-tune his AR. It should be able to eat any type of ammo.

Reductio
04-09-2011, 12:11 PM
^^ And if not in the BCG, there's different buffer weights out there for a reason.

glock7
04-09-2011, 12:40 PM
i keep the junk russian ammo for my ak. whats the point of spending a lot of money on a ar just to buy crap ammo to run thru it.

^this. my AR gets the good stuff. my soon to be mine saiga gets the cheap stuff!:D

Ryan in SD
04-09-2011, 2:14 PM
My argument is RUN THE WEAPON FOR WHAT IT IS OPTIMISED FOR. Is that lacking? Run your Porsche for what it was optimised for: 92 octane, not 87 because it still drives and 87 costs less. My weapons are optimised for 5.56, although .223 will work. Using .223 thats low grade, in powder, in primers, and in casings...... Is not what the weapons were designed around. I did not design them, I am only an end-user. Go ahead, be cute, and run your Porsche on 87, but you will eventually have problems, a dirtier engine, and less power, and eventually greater failure.

Did you know that the KAC MK11 will run on only a few kinds of .308?

Dude I say this as nice as possible. I think you have some sort of ammo OCD.

Also the octane car metaphor isnt equal. low octane in a high compression car damages the car where as steel cased ammo in a SCAR for example does nothing bad, it even shoots no prob from the videos Ive seen.

The problem is the gun (AR platform). Yes it is a highly modern UBER sexy motha effin design, but guess what. It still has problems. Why do you think there are several other modern guns coming out that are similar to the AR platform that are either piston and or completely revamped? BECAUSE ITS NOT A PERFECT GUN.

Saying it needs brass because brass cased high end ammo is made to tighter tolerances REALLY just says the gun sucks and needs to be spoon fed.

cmace22
04-09-2011, 2:29 PM
My argument is RUN THE WEAPON FOR WHAT IT IS OPTIMISED FOR. Is that lacking? Run your Porsche for what it was optimised for: 92 octane, not 87 because it still drives and 87 costs less. My weapons are optimised for 5.56, although .223 will work. Using .223 thats low grade, in powder, in primers, and in casings...... Is not what the weapons were designed around. I did not design them, I am only an end-user. Go ahead, be cute, and run your Porsche on 87, but you will eventually have problems, a dirtier engine, and less power, and eventually greater failure.

Did you know that the KAC MK11 will run on only a few kinds of .308?

optimized-past participle, past tense of op·ti·mize (Verb)
1. Make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource).

My AR is "optimized" to run any kind of ammo. What is yours optimized for? Shooting only brass cased "American" grade A quality ammo? What a waste.... Yes it is lacking. 556 may have been what it was designed around but if your AR wont cycle 223, you bought yourself a POS!

Oh and FYI, the KAC MK11 is considered by many who use it to be a POS for that exact reason.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 2:32 PM
Dude I say this as nice as possible. I think you have some sort of ammo OCD.

Also the octane car metaphor isnt equal. low octane in a high compression car damages the car where as steel cased ammo in a SCAR for example does nothing bad, it even shoots no prob from the videos Ive seen.

The problem is the gun (AR platform). Yes it is a highly modern UBER sexy motha effin design, but guess what. It still has problems. Why do you think there are several other modern guns coming out that are similar to the AR platform that are either piston and or completely revamped? BECAUSE ITS NOT A PERFECT GUN.

Saying it needs brass because brass cased high end ammo is made to tighter tolerances REALLY just says the gun sucks and needs to be spoon fed.

OK, I will say this as nicely as I can......... get a clue. Yes, many of the new piston weopons out there have adjustable gas regulators, to compensate for different conditions, and for weaker or stronger ammo. If you have a DI, you have ONE gas setting. My bro's rifle ran the ammo, had a few FTF, then one got stuck, hard. WELL lubed with Slip 2000. He is running a carbine buffer, so a buffer that was too heavy for that weak ammo was not the issue. The same weapon ran 200 rounds of PMC two weeks before, without even ONE hickup.

So again, THE BUSHMASTER RAN WITH THE AMMO, BUT THEN INEVITABLY, ONE STEEL CASE BECAME LODGED. ALL WEAPONS ARE GONNA RUN LOWER PRESSURE/STEEL CASE AMMO, SOME BETTER THAN OTHERS. THAT IS THE VARIABLE I AM TALKING ABOUT. DOMESTIC BRASS LOADS ARE GOING TO BE MORE RELIABLE THAN RUSSIAN....... IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE THAT, YOU'RE A FOOL. THE ABSOLUTE LAST CRITERIA I'M GOING TO USE WHEN CHOOSING A RIFLE IS: "GEEZE, WILL IT RUN 100% PERFECT WITH WOLF, SILVER BEAR, BROWN BEAR, TULA, AND HERTERS?" HELL NO, I DON'T BUY BOTTOM TIER AMMO, SO WHY WOULD I CARE IF MY RIFLE RUNS IT? IF A NOVESKE DOES NOT LIKE STEEL CASE AMMO, IS THAT RIFLE A POS? LMAO.

Ryan in SD
04-09-2011, 2:35 PM
Ok, more ammo for me :cool:

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 2:37 PM
optimized-past participle, past tense of op·ti·mize (Verb)
1. Make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource).

My AR is "optimized" to run any kind of ammo. What is yours optimized for? Shooting only brass cased "American" grade A quality ammo? What a waste.... Yes it is lacking. 556 may have been what it was designed around but if your AR wont cycle 223, you bought yourself a POS!

Oh and FYI, the KAC MK11 is considered by many who use it to be a POS for that exact reason.

Did you bother to read anything? His rifle DOES cycle PMC .223 all day long... not American, but BRASS, and good power.

I have used Sellier & Bellot and PMC and FIOCHI .223 in all of MY past rifles - NO HICKUPS........... This is about Russian JUNK, not the other above MENTIONED brands I just mentioned. Try using your HS diploma and reading before you make a comment.

You can be the spokesman for the manufacturers then smart guy, because most of them disagree, and clearly state it in their warranty disclosures.

Droppin Deuces
04-09-2011, 2:39 PM
Did you bother to read anything? His rifle DOES cycle PMC .223 all day long... not American, but BRASS, and good power.

I have used Sellier & Bellot and PMC and FIOCHI .223 in all of MY past rifles - NO HICKUPS........... This is about Russian JUNK, not the other above MENTIONED brands I just mentioned. Try using your HS diploma and reading before you make a comment.

Listen to you, man. Get a grip.

sleepercar
04-09-2011, 2:40 PM
It's ok.. Your buddy deserved it anyway. :rolleyes:
But anyway, where are you located?
I'm willing to meet FTF for a hug transaction.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 2:41 PM
Listen to you, man. Get a grip.

Have you read some of the comments? People are jumping in without a clue about what I have already said.

cmace22
04-09-2011, 2:42 PM
Did you bother to read anything? His rifle DOES cycle PMC .223 all day long... not American, but BRASS, and good power.

I have used Sellier & Bellot and PMC and FIOCHI .223 in all of MY past rifles - NO HICKUPS........... This is about Russian JUNK, not the other above MENTIONED brands I just mentioned. Try using your HS diploma and reading before you make a comment.

You can be the spokesman for the manufacturers then smart guy, because most of them disagree, and clearly state it in their warranty disclosures.


I was commenting on your text THAT I QUOTED.... Get a clue.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 2:44 PM
OK, you guys can continue this if you like....................... enjoy welfare ammo in your AR's. I'm going to grab 200 rounds of Herters and run it, but im not going to endorse it like it's equal to or better than good Federal and the like.

It's been fun:)

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 2:46 PM
You are retarded.... I was commenting on your text THAT I QUOTED.... Get a clue.

You said that if his rifle does not cycle .223, it's a POS, right? I commented that IT DOES run .223 well, good quality brass .223. Where did I loose you?

cmace22
04-09-2011, 2:54 PM
My argument is RUN THE WEAPON FOR WHAT IT IS OPTIMISED FOR. Is that lacking? Run your Porsche for what it was optimised for: 92 octane, not 87 because it still drives and 87 costs less. My weapons are optimised for 5.56, although .223 will work. Using .223 thats low grade, in powder, in primers, and in casings...... Is not what the weapons were designed around. I did not design them, I am only an end-user. Go ahead, be cute, and run your Porsche on 87, but you will eventually have problems, a dirtier engine, and less power, and eventually greater failure.

Did you know that the KAC MK11 will run on only a few kinds of .308?

Anywhere in here reference your friends rife?

optimized-past participle, past tense of op·ti·mize (Verb)
1. Make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource).

My AR is "optimized" to run any kind of ammo. What is yours optimized for? Shooting only brass cased "American" grade A quality ammo? What a waste.... Yes it is lacking. 556 may have been what it was designed around but if your AR wont cycle 223, you bought yourself a POS!

Oh and FYI, the KAC MK11 is considered by many who use it to be a POS for that exact reason.

Anywhere in here reference your friends AR or foreign ammo? I think it addresses you bolded comment from the first post.

Did you bother to read anything? His rifle DOES cycle PMC .223 all day long... not American, but BRASS, and good power.

I have used Sellier & Bellot and PMC and FIOCHI .223 in all of MY past rifles - NO HICKUPS........... This is about Russian JUNK, not the other above MENTIONED brands I just mentioned. Try using your HS diploma and reading before you make a comment.

You can be the spokesman for the manufacturers then smart guy, because most of them disagree, and clearly state it in their warranty disclosures.

Thats why you got this...

I was commenting on your text THAT I QUOTED.... Get a clue.

Where did I loose you?

You said that if his rifle does not cycle .223, it's a POS, right? I commented that IT DOES run .223 well, good quality brass .223. Where did I loose you?

Yep if an AR wont cycle 223 IMO its a giant POS. I never addressed your friends issue except in my first post. All posts after were replys to your post.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 3:02 PM
cmace22,
Again, I NEVER SAID that his rifle would not cycle .223 I said his runs PMC .223 perfectly. I also said that his ran Russian .223 with hickups, then one large hickup. So, clearly his rifle is not a POS.....simply because of the inconsistency with cheap, bargain basement Russian ammo. Can I be any more crystal clear?

Droppin Deuces
04-09-2011, 3:02 PM
If it were a precision rifle that was having this problem, that's understandable. But a production model Bushmaster? That's not acceptable. It all comes down to what you think the sign of a good gun is - one that will eat anything or one that will only eat certain things. One that is reliable with only certain brands of ammo does not fit 99% of people's description of "reliable."

You seem to think that only low quality guns will eat Russian ammo reliably because they are built to a different standard or something.

missiontrails
04-09-2011, 3:19 PM
If it were a precision rifle that was having this problem, that's understandable. But a production model Bushmaster? That's not acceptable. It all comes down to what you think the sign of a good gun is - one that will eat anything or one that will only eat certain things. One that is reliable with only certain brands of ammo does not fit 99% of people's description of "reliable."

You seem to think that only low quality guns will eat Russian ammo reliably because they are built to a different standard or something.

Actually, I don't think that. I'm not quite sure how an AR than runs on anything that is $5.50 or more per box of 20, should be judged harshly because it does not perform like a rockstar on ammo in the $3-4.50 per box range.

Droppin Deuces
04-09-2011, 3:31 PM
Actually, I don't think that. I'm not quite sure how an AR than runs on anything that is $5.50 or more per box of 20, should be judged harshly because it does not perform like a rockstar on ammo in the $3-4.50 per box range.

Because the vast majority of them do.

FS00008
04-09-2011, 11:24 PM
Because the vast majority of them do.

+1,000,000,000

locosway
04-09-2011, 11:43 PM
No, the purpose of the post was not to re-invent the wheel, and not to give "heads up" to people in here who are already well informed. My main point was, and I have been paying close attention to this, that the majoroty of time I read a post here about someone elses FTE, FTF, or other failure.....the question usually comes up "what ammo were you using?" EVERY time it seems that it's Russian. My brother is not hurting for $$, but sometimes he thinks spending less is better, and when he mentioned that he could get 500 rounds of steel cased Russian stuff for $130, I told him that he may have issues. Sure enough, he ran it through a near new BIG name brand, well lubed upper, and he suffered a failure. When you can buy 400 rounds of new load BRASS Federal boxer primed Ball ammo for $129 (XM193, OR XM855), why would you even bother BUYING, STORING, OR SHOOTING Russian through an AR? It seems here that nobody wants to admit that Russian stuff is inferior, and the ONLY reason to shoot it is to save $$$. Some AR's may eat dog food with high reliability, but there are many AR's out there that are also high quality that may need brass, due to tighter tolerances. If SHTF, hopefully you have a stockpile of whatever the HIGHEST quality stuff is........ it's not like you are just gonna find Russian ammo laying in the street.

Russian ammo is not inferior, it's just produced in a different way. Yes, I could run match grade ammo out of my AR all day and get excellent results. But when I'm throwing 200 rounds down range at 200 yards with iron sights, who cares if the ammo is match grade?

If my gun will shoot Brown Bear, Tula, Tiger, PMC, or anything else form these "third world countries", why not shoot it? 1k rounds is $180... If I took that same $180 and bought some good American ammo I'd get 500 or 600 rounds. If I'm trying to stockpile or just have fun, then why limit myself?

Personally, I'll never stockpile on one brand of ammo. The last thing I want to find out is Federal, PMC, Brown Bear, Black Hills, has an issue with long term storage under adverse conditions. Or their type of powder wasn't appropriate for the shooting conditions I was in. Because of this I try to keep 1k rounds of each brand, and this goes not only for my rifles but my pistols as well. This way I know I can switch ammo if a problem arises.

Lastly, if my AR will not shoot any and all types of ammo I feed it, I don't want it. This isn't a precision machine that's shooting out to 600 yards with 1/4" groups. This is a battle rifle that needs to work all the time no matter what. What do you think is going to happen when there's a real SHTF situation and the only thing you can get is some rusty ammo that you found in a can somewhere? Starve to death because you wanted to keep your picky AR instead of getting one that works with all ammo?

I like options, part of having options for me is shooting everything. If I start limiting my ammo choices, why not start with food as well. Maybe I'll only buy caviar to stock pile since I hear it's good.

pyro3k2
04-10-2011, 12:02 AM
never thought this thread was going to make it this far keep it up guys, this is what I'm losing sleep over.

metalliman545
04-10-2011, 7:00 AM
I never need to shoot 1/4inch groups at 600+ meters when I was in iraq... Just saying

GM4spd
04-10-2011, 7:15 AM
:rolleyes:

Doesnt the AR have a history of ammo related problems....

Or another way of looking at it was a design issue with the rifle itself....

Cant get it dirty, cant run it dry, have to run "grade A" American ammo or it jams ROTFL.


Your logic is flawed and your argument is lacking.

Good point--going way back to the 60s with the M16 jamming in Vietnam
(when powder was changed from stick to ball) -- the DI system could not
handle it. If the M16 was a piston design-- the powder would never have
been an issue, meanwhile GIs
and American aircraft were being
brought down by AKs that shot ANY type 762x39 ammo.Also note more
American aircraft were brought down by small arms(AKs?) then any other
factor,(which included MIGs and SAM missles.)Pete

toby
04-10-2011, 7:41 AM
You ever wonder why nothing you own say's "made in Russia" ?

locosway
04-10-2011, 7:42 AM
You ever wonder why nothing you own say's "made in Russia" ?

Do you want the real answer to this question, or do you want us to humor you and say it's because everything Russian made is crap?

toby
04-10-2011, 7:46 AM
Do you want the real answer to this question, or do you want us to humor you and say it's because everything Russian made is crap?

I know the answer it was a JK! HAHA get it?

Dion
04-10-2011, 8:11 AM
I had an interesting experience yesterday at Big Jive.

I went to the ammo counter and asked the guy if he had 7.62X39 and he asked me if I want "cheap" or "better". I said, "cheap" and he said "Well... you must not care about your gun..."

I laughed it off and walked out. I felt like I was in a Miller Light commercial. Yes, this is why he probably gets paid the big bucks - with that kind of awesome upsell.

I've used steel ammo in my 9mm, M1 Carbine and Mosin Nagants and all of it worked just fine. My M1 Carbine was the finickiest, but it was finicky with good brass so I'm not going to immediately blame the ammo.

Use what works for you with some trial and error. I'm tired of steel Russian ammo myths. If it doesn't work for you, use something else that does - otherwise, these "warnings" are just done in vain when a ton of us use it just fine.

My buddy is allergic to mangos - doesn't mean he goes around telling people not to eat mangos.

EWILKE
04-10-2011, 8:36 AM
I have a robinson XCR and a PWS MK114 and I went to the range with only wolf ,tula and herters 500 rounds total thru both guns and not one problem and the PWS was brand new.I am not sure bushmaster is making there rifles so good these days.everyone who complains about steel case ammo seems to have a bushmaster upper.

Knife Edge
04-10-2011, 8:51 AM
It's like buying a nice car with high compression and the quest to see if it'll run on 87. Who cares if it stumbles, detonates and ends up missing 60 of it's horsepower. After all I bought a car with 12:1 compression to just look good...
Spare me.

Garbage in = garbage out. No matter is created in the middle.

locosway
04-10-2011, 8:53 AM
It's like buying a nice car with high compression and the quest to see if it'll run on 87. Who cares if it stumbles, detonates and ends up missing 60 of it's horsepower. After all I bought a car with 12:1 compression to just look good...
Spare me.

Garbage in = garbage out. No matter is created in the middle.

Octane is not even comparable in terms of ammo. Instead it's like arguing the difference between Shell and Arco gas.

big ron
04-10-2011, 9:01 AM
No problems with tula .223 from wallyworld in my cheapo delton. 2nd that :D

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 9:03 AM
It's like buying a nice car with high compression and the quest to see if it'll run on 87. Who cares if it stumbles, detonates and ends up missing 60 of it's horsepower. After all I bought a car with 12:1 compression to just look good...
Spare me.

Garbage in = garbage out. No matter is created in the middle.

+1

Buy the high compression car just to look good, and but the lowest grade ammo possible just to hear your rifle go "bang." Then, clean all the rotten egg smelling fouling out of your weapon. Well worth it. Ghetto.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 9:11 AM
Octane is not even comparable in terms of ammo. Instead it's like arguing the difference between Shell and Arco gas.

BS. Those two fuels will run clean, and run the same. Locos, why are you so defensive about imported low grade stuff? I just don't get it. I still have not seen you admit that Russian ammo for the AR is the lowest quality you can get. When is the last time you heard of Federal having a "bad batch" of ammo? Just ghetto. I'm sure you cut other corners as well, based on how defensive you are about ammo that ranks below Walmart.

EWILKE
04-10-2011, 9:11 AM
the high compression engine/octane comparison is valid, but what if 87 was all that was around don't you want your car to get you around. My test was not about cost it was about reliability. I reload so quality ammo is cheap I don't want a weapon that is too picky on ammo. It should feed and fire all ammo all the time. yes I will not get the best performance but I can still use my weapon.

rattlesnake_nm
04-10-2011, 9:36 AM
Seriously it seems like an attempt to justify buying a pos shrubmaster or olympic by blaming ammo for the failures. If You buy a piece of crap ar15, don't get on the internet and cry that steel ammo sucks, when it's Your ar15. It's like trying to push propganda that isn't true. If an ar15 will not run wolf, brown bear ect, it is a piece of ****.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 9:58 AM
Seriously it seems like an attempt to justify buying a pos shrubmaster or olympic by blaming ammo for the failures. If You buy a piece of crap ar15, don't get on the internet and cry that steel ammo sucks, when it's Your ar15. It's like trying to push propganda that isn't true. If an ar15 will not run wolf, brown bear ect, it is a piece of ****.

I dont own a Bjshmaster. When you get a better job and can afford $5.99 per box of domestic ammo, let us know. In the meantime, enjoy the sulphur/amonia smell that's leftover in your weapon along with the excessive amount of black fouling, and lower accuracy of your JUNK. You're right, Russian is just as good at the 25 yard indoor range, providing that you don't have a "POS" weapon that won't eat all of it. I would never even buy a used weapon from someone who I knew ran nothing but food stamp ammo through it. Basically AK74 ammo.

rattlesnake_nm
04-10-2011, 10:23 AM
I dont own a Bjshmaster. When you get a better job and can afford $5.99 per box of domestic ammo, let us know. In the meantime, enjoy the sulphur/amonia smell that's leftover in your weapon along with the excessive amount of black fouling, and lower accuracy of your JUNK. You're right, Russian is just as good at the 25 yard indoor range, providing that you don't have a "POS" weapon that won't eat all of it. I would never even buy a used weapon from someone who I knew ran nothing but food stamp ammo through it. Basically AK74 ammo.


Lmao. Ak74 ammo is good stuff. You have no clue what You are talking about. You have no idea what I buy and shoot. If a pos **** ar doesn't cycle any ammo it's the ar not the ammo. This thread it worthless, and just beating a dead horse. An ar should run steel ammo no problem other wise the ar is the problem. Most seem to know this, except You.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 10:37 AM
Lmao. Ak74 ammo is good stuff. You have no clue what You are talking about. You have no idea what I buy and shoot. If a pos **** ar doesn't cycle any ammo it's the ar not the ammo. This thread it worthless, and just beating a dead horse. An ar should run steel ammo no problem other wise the ar is the problem. Most seem to know this, except You.

You can clearly tell who buys what here...... anyone who says "OMG, how can you say such a thing about Russian ammo"......... It's freakin obvious that those people are cheap, or think that buying the lowest crap they can find is cute. WHO in the hell invests $1200-2000 in a nice AR, and then goes completely GHETTO and buys crap to shoot through it? Logic? Why would you intentionally turn a accurate rifle into a less accurate rifle? Due to the low pressure of the stuff, the round does not even travel near the velocity of Ball ammo rounds. Why!?!?!!?

K, im out...... no more arguing.

rattlesnake_nm
04-10-2011, 10:42 AM
You can clearly tell who buys what here...... anyone who says "OMG, how can you say such a thing about Russian ammo"......... It's freakin obvious that those people are cheap, or think that buying the lowest crap they can find is cute. WHO in the hell invests $1200-2000 in a nice AR, and then goes completely GHETTO and buys crap to shoot through it? Logic? Why would you intentionally turn a accurate rifle into a less accurate rifle? Due to the low pressure of the stuff, the round does not even travel near the velocity of Ball ammo rounds. Why!?!?!!?

K, im out...... no more arguing.


Dude You don't know wtf You are talking about. I have cases of m855, and brown bear, with thousands of rounds downrange. I am glad You are out because this thread is stupid to begin with.

SinisterBud
04-10-2011, 11:19 AM
its funny that u think AR's are the high end sport car of rifles. when they where made by the cheapest bidder. Mil spec mean's lowest bidder cheap. Putting flame suit on now

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 1:21 PM
+1

Buy the high compression car just to look good, and but the lowest grade ammo possible just to hear your rifle go "bang." Then, clean all the rotten egg smelling fouling out of your weapon. Well worth it. Ghetto.

Like I said in the other thread, you think your gun is something it isn't. You paid all of that money for somethng no different than a Stag and you call people ghetto because they don't do similarly silly **** with their money.
Truth is, with all the extra trigger time some of these guys get because of their ghetto guns and ammo choices, they're better shots than you with better trigger control in the end anyway.

What is it with this ghetto ****, anyway? What do you think this is? This isn't auto racing, it's GUNS. The beauty of it is that some dude with no money and a crappy gun will still outshoot you with your awesome Ruger(with a 1:9 twist, by the way. How ghetto is that?). Please don't try to turn this into some elitist hobby just because you feel the need to spend more money than other people on ammo for a gun that shouldn't even require it.

Damn.

TurboChrisB
04-10-2011, 2:05 PM
Wow! After 6 pages of this thread you're still posting ignorant stuff like this?

Seems obvious to me that you're just another one of those "know it all" types of guy that with no matter what type or amount of evidence you're presented with..you will never back down, never allow that you may be wrong, never concede that any opinion other than yours "could" have merit. Either you're a troll or you're just obnoxious.




You can clearly tell who buys what here...... anyone who says "OMG, how can you say such a thing about Russian ammo"......... It's freakin obvious that those people are cheap, or think that buying the lowest crap they can find is cute. WHO in the hell invests $1200-2000 in a nice AR, and then goes completely GHETTO and buys crap to shoot through it? Logic? Why would you intentionally turn a accurate rifle into a less accurate rifle? Due to the low pressure of the stuff, the round does not even travel near the velocity of Ball ammo rounds. Why!?!?!!?

K, im out...... no more arguing.

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 2:21 PM
Wow! After 6 pages of this thread you're still posting ignorant stuff like this?

Seems obvious to me that you're just another one of those "know it all" types of guy that with no matter what type or amount of evidence you're presented with..you will never back down, never allow that you may be wrong, never concede that any opinion other than yours "could" have merit. Either you're a troll or you're just obnoxious.

That's probably what it is. The last time I shot him down, he didn't respond to me and instead started calling everyone cheap and ghetto.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 2:29 PM
Wow! After 6 pages of this thread you're still posting ignorant stuff like this?

Seems obvious to me that you're just another one of those "know it all" types of guy that with no matter what type or amount of evidence you're presented with..you will never back down, never allow that you may be wrong, never concede that any opinion other than yours "could" have merit. Either you're a troll or you're just obnoxious.
Chris,
What evidence? That the cheapo stuff runs? How about that it's dirty as hell, less accurate, and more prone to "bad batches" and failures? Do you denigh that?

Troll? Buddy, I have been here over twice as long as you, have more than twice your iTader ratings (1/3 are rifles), and more than twice your number of posts. Troll?

I don't think I have ever owned a rifle that would not "run" you favorite choice of ammo, BTW. I just personally choose to actually take the manufacturers seriously when they say not to run Eastern Block crap through their rifles.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 2:33 PM
That's probably what it is. The last time I shot him down, he didn't respond to me and instead started calling everyone cheap and ghetto.

Ya, you're the guy that wanted to argue the fact that Ruger actually markets complete weapons. You got pissy when I reminded you that Adam's Arms does not build or market a complete weapon. You took that as a put down because you run an Adam's kit upper. Like I told you, the Adam's kit looks decent. Hell, you even got pissed when I shared with everyone here that Spike's was blowing them out for $199! You have not been able to "shoot me down" with even one valid point.

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 2:46 PM
Ya, you're the guy that wanted to argue the fact that Ruger actually markets complete weapons. You got pissy when I reminded you that Adam's Arms does not build or market a complete weapon. You took that as a put down because you run an Adam's kit upper. Like I told you, the Adam's kit looks decent. Hell, you even got pissed when I shared with everyone here that Spike's was blowing them out for $199! You have not been able to "shoot me down" with even one valid point.

There you go with your spin again. It's like you're some highschool or college kid who thinks no one else "gets it." I'm not getting pissy, I just like to point out when you're putting your childish spin on things to keep you honest, if that's even possible. You seem to have some trouble accepting defeat, so instead you just pretend like you didn't see certain posts. There might be one or two people here who would trust you to judge a valid point after some of the comments you've made.

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 2:51 PM
Ya, you're the guy that wanted to argue the fact that Ruger actually markets complete weapons. You got pissy when I reminded you that Adam's Arms does not build or market a complete weapon. You took that as a put down because you run an Adam's kit upper. Like I told you, the Adam's kit looks decent. Hell, you even got pissed when I shared with everyone here that Spike's was blowing them out for $199! You have not been able to "shoot me down" with even one valid point.

There you go again! You're the guy who was trying to convince me that Ruger DESIGNED AN ENTIRE WEAPON in the SR-556. Can't you even remember half of the BS you type?

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 2:54 PM
There you go with your spin again. It's like you're some highschool or college kid who thinks no one else "gets it." I'm not getting pissy, I just like to point out when you're putting your childish spin on things to keep you honest, if that's even possible. You seem to have some trouble accepting defeat, so instead you just pretend like you didn't see certain posts. There might be one or two people here who would trust you to judge a valid point after some of the comments you've made.

Actually a 40 year-old with a law degree:)

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 2:56 PM
There you go again! You're the guy who was trying to convince me that Ruger DESIGNED AN ENTIRE WEAPON in the SR-556. Can't you even remember half of the BS you type?

Splitting hairs. They did design their piston system, and market it in a complete rifle. Why can't you just say "Yes, Ruger manufactures and markets complete firearms, and Adam's Arms DOES NOT. ?? You can't do that, can you?:confused:

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 2:56 PM
Actually a 40 year-old with a law degree:)

Now I see why you word things the way you do.

By the way, some guy named Russian Ammo just called. Apparently you're no longer welcome in the thread that he now owns.

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 2:57 PM
Splitting hairs. They did design their piston system, and market it in a complete rifle. Why can't you just say "Yes, Ruger manufactures and markets complete firearms, and Adam's Arms DOES NOT. ?? You can't do that, can you?:confused:

That wasn't even the issue. I own Rugers. Give up now.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 3:09 PM
Now I see why you word things the way you do.

By the way, some guy named Russian Ammo just called. Apparently you're no longer welcome in the thread that he now owns.

LOL...........Tell him i'm still gonna put 200 rounds of his finest BROWN through my rifle.... but it won't become a regular habit.

Droppin Deuces
04-10-2011, 3:16 PM
Here's what your argument looks like to someone who eats a lot of nuts.

Random nut guy: Man, these peanuts are really good.

Missiontrails: Screw you. Cashews are better because they cost more. You should eat cashews.

RNG: But I like peanuts. They taste fine.

Missiontrails: Dude, why are you so cheap? I would never put peanuts in my Porsche.

RNG: Man, that's kind of a bad analogy. Can't you think of something better?

Missiontrails: Dude, peanuts are ghetto. Fine, if you want peanuts, eats peanuts, but if you die it's because you're cheap and ghetto. Ghetto @$$ ghetto.

RNG: OK...

Missiontrails: Nuts are a rich man's food. All of you fools are cheap @$$ ghetto gangsters with your peanuts.

djcrapilicious
04-10-2011, 3:28 PM
Actually a 40 year-old with a law degree:)

Seriously? You come across worse than some of the younger folks on here.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 3:33 PM
Here's what your argument looks like to someone who eats a lot of nuts.

Random nut guy: Man, these peanuts are really good.

Missiontrails: Screw you. Cashews are better because they cost more. You should eat cashews.

RNG: But I like peanuts. They taste fine.

Missiontrails: Dude, why are you so cheap? I would never put peanuts in my Porsche.

RNG: Man, that's kind of a bad analogy. Can't you think of something better?

Missiontrails: Dude, peanuts are ghetto. Fine, if you want peanuts, eats peanuts, but if you die it's because you're cheap and ghetto. Ghetto @$$ ghetto.

RNG: OK...

Missiontrails: Nuts are a rich man's food. All of you fools are cheap @$$ ghetto gangsters with your peanuts.

Deuces, i'm gonna need you to be honest here... pleaseeeee... answer these:

1) Is Russian ammo dirty? (ie: does your gun smell like it dropped a deuce, and is there way more BLACK crud in there after?)

2) Is Russian ammo less accurate, lower pressure, and lower velocity?

3) Is steel cased ammo what 9 out of 10 AR manufactures recommend you run through their weapons?

4) Will Russian ammo cause problems in some AR's (including some high dollar ones)?

5) Is steel case BEST for your extractor, instead of brass?

6) Overall, is Russian ammo less reliable than, say, Federal XM855 ammo?

YES or NO only will suffice.

toby
04-10-2011, 3:38 PM
Well I'm a 49 yr old with a Contractors License and 12 Certifications, big F ...:shrug: Totally irrelevant aint it?

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 3:46 PM
Well I'm a 49 yr old with a Contractors License and 12 Certifications, big F ...:shrug: Totally irrelevant aint it?

Agree. Someone else was throwing around the "high school" thing...... Toby, I would trade ya.

Packy14
04-10-2011, 4:07 PM
Personally I don't use Russian ammo not because of the casings but because I don't trust their powders (even if they say non-corrosive) and rather not have to clean my rifle every time I shoot, I do have some russian ammo, can't remember the brand, but I'll only use it if i'm ready for a good scrubdown of my rifle/bolt.

cmace22
04-10-2011, 5:48 PM
Agree. Someone else was throwing around the "high school" thing...... Toby, I would trade ya.

I believe you were the first to pull the "high school" card ;)


Try using your HS diploma and reading before you make a comment.

Pryde
04-10-2011, 6:01 PM
Personally I don't use Russian ammo not because of the casings but because I don't trust their powders (even if they say non-corrosive) and rather not have to clean my rifle every time I shoot, I do have some russian ammo, can't remember the brand, but I'll only use it if i'm ready for a good scrubdown of my rifle/bolt.

What makes ammo corrosive or not is the primer, there is no such thing as a "corrosive powder". I believe corrosive primers are no longer being used by any Russian factories.

FWIW, Hornady uses Russian steel and lacquer cases to make their "Training" ammo which is held to high accuracy and reliability standards. They just use their own powder and bullets. If Russian steel cases were really that bad, I doubt Hornady would use it for their ammunition given their reputation.

Knife Edge
04-10-2011, 6:01 PM
Deuces, i'm gonna need you to be honest here... pleaseeeee... answer these:

1) Is Russian ammo dirty? (ie: does your gun smell like it dropped a deuce, and is there way more BLACK crud in there after?)

2) Is Russian ammo less accurate, lower pressure, and lower velocity?

3) Is steel cased ammo what 9 out of 10 AR manufactures recommend you run through their weapons?

4) Will Russian ammo cause problems in some AR's (including some high dollar ones)?

5) Is steel case BEST for your extractor, instead of brass?

6) Overall, is Russian ammo less reliable than, say, Federal XM855 ammo?

YES or NO only will suffice.

That pretty much sizes it up. One of the major ammo sellers just dropped wolf ammo.

L4D
04-10-2011, 6:06 PM
When is the last time you heard of Federal having a "bad batch" of ammo?

Couple months ago.

http://www.turners.com/images/federal_recall.pdf


Buddy, I have been here over twice as long as you, have more than twice your iTader ratings (1/3 are rifles), and more than twice your number of posts.

take that! lol.

missiontrails
04-10-2011, 6:16 PM
That pretty much sizes it up. One of the major ammo sellers just dropped wolf ammo.

Ya, Cabella's.

mif_slim
04-10-2011, 6:26 PM
This thread is still going?!?

I hope it keeps going because Im making a video just for missiontrails. Lol.

STAGE 2
04-10-2011, 6:45 PM
I really don't understand the problem here. Some people think that because some AR's run commie ammo fine that its fine for AR's in general. Russian ammo is made to substandard specs and with substandard materials. The AR was designed around brass case ammo. The further you move away from the design standard the greater chance you have for failure.

There are plenty of people who love their ford pintos and have never had a problem with them. That doesnt change the fact that they are a crappy car. The same applies here.