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View Full Version : Can you answer the front door of your home bearing arms????


SexPistol
04-06-2011, 7:57 PM
My buddy and I were talking about a party this weekend that he is hosting and he was talking about how if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property. I told him this was not legal but he said it was since it was his home and they are unwanted individuals on his property so he has the right to bear arms.

Whose right? And please explain in the simplest/clear was possible so I can relay it to him if he's the one whose wrong.

Thanks!

five.five-six
04-06-2011, 7:59 PM
that's a really dumb idea, if you are going to have a shotgun, i recommend at least having the magazine full


don't brandish it at anyone that's not threatening you

Baconator
04-06-2011, 8:00 PM
I usually keep my arms on at all times.

But it sounds like you are describing brandishing, which could get that person arrested and/or killed. And I don't think you will get away with "keeping people off your property" with deadly force shown.

paul0660
04-06-2011, 8:00 PM
Why unloaded? Like 556 said.

SexPistol
04-06-2011, 8:05 PM
I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.

Librarian
04-06-2011, 8:12 PM
Someone might not be intimidated - unloaded isn't that good an idea.

But to answer the original question, yes, it's entirely legal to be armed at home and to answer the door armed.

I'll leave it to each individual to decide the wisdom of it.

Quiet
04-06-2011, 8:13 PM
My buddy and I were talking about a party this weekend that he is hosting and he was talking about how if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property. I told him this was not legal but he said it was since it was his home and they are unwanted individuals on his property so he has the right to bear arms.

Whose right? And please explain in the simplest/clear was possible so I can relay it to him if he's the one whose wrong.

Thanks!

I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.

That would be considered "brandishing". [PC 417(a)(2)]


Penal Code 417
(a)(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(B) In all cases other than that set forth in subparagraph (A), a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months.

ElvenSoul
04-06-2011, 8:16 PM
Your friend might win the criminal case but would lose the civil case....aren't lawyers great

Baconator
04-06-2011, 8:18 PM
I am thinking more along the lines of why express the intention of deadly force if you aren't needing to use deadly force. Your friend opens the door to someone who doesn't know him and he has a shotgun in his hand. That person calls 911, a SWAT standoff ensues. I don't think anything good will come of this idea.

hawk1
04-06-2011, 8:19 PM
I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.

Any chance you can shoot video? Might just be the local LEO, I'm sure it'll end badly for your friend.

five.five-six
04-06-2011, 8:19 PM
I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.

so if I am a turdwad with a gun at his door and he tells me to f off and slams the door, I shout at him and walk away


now if he threatens my life with an unloaded shotgun, I shoot at him to protect my life..... never bring an unloaded gun to any kind of a fight, brandishing an unloaded gun brings the same penalty as a loaded one,


If uncomfortable, may come to my door with a loaded gun, but by the time the threat sees it, I will have already decided to use deadly force, no sence tipping your hand


YMMV

Cokebottle
04-06-2011, 8:23 PM
I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.
That absolutely would be brandishing... and if alcohol is involved, keep the gun locked up. It could end up loaded and used.

paul0660
04-06-2011, 8:26 PM
I am thinking more along the lines of why express the intention of deadly force if you aren't needing to use deadly force. Your friend opens the door to someone who doesn't know him and he has a shotgun in his hand. That person calls 911, a SWAT andoff ensues. I don't think anything good will come of this idea.

Maybe my assumption magnet is turned to HIGH tonight, but how do you ASSUME he doesn't need to use deadly force?

Answer door without pants on..............that's a crime.

Answer door with a gun......a tradition. Personally I wouldn't blink, and probably give the guy a fist pump after i sold him my GS cookies.

1Fastrider
04-06-2011, 8:30 PM
I openly carry while on my property, in my house. I have answered the door with my holstered weapon because I'm used to it being there. I generally answer with the opposite side of my body to the person so they do not see my holster or contents. You taking the shotgun out just seems like it could cause trouble.

misterjake
04-06-2011, 8:32 PM
Easy, answer the door with a pistol in one hand behind the door. Only have 1/2 your body out. Let the guy never see the gun.

Or if you don't know who the guy is, don't answer the door.

Baconator
04-06-2011, 8:32 PM
Maybe my assumption magnet is turned to HIGH tonight, but how do you ASSUME he doesn't need to use deadly force?

Answer door without pants on..............that's a crime.

Answer door with a gun......a tradition. Personally I wouldn't blink, and probably give the guy a fist pump after i sold him my GS cookies.

The guy can do what he wants. If he gets shot because someone is in fear of their life because he has an unloaded shotgun in his hand for the girl scouts, that's his problem. Also, opening a door with a gun in a holster doesn't seem nearly as menacing as a shotgun in the hands. I think it would be easier to get a brandishing charge for a shotgun.

NOTARPilot
04-06-2011, 8:41 PM
Why doesn't your "buddy" just tell them they are not welcome to the party and politely ask them to leave?

Cokebottle
04-06-2011, 8:46 PM
Maybe my assumption magnet is turned to HIGH tonight, but how do you ASSUME he doesn't need to use deadly force?
No assumption there.....
if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property.
He is clearly planning on brandishing to anyone at the door (presumably people coming to complain about the party, potentially cops, or party-crashers).

paul0660
04-06-2011, 8:51 PM
The guy can do what he wants. If he gets shot because someone is in fear of their life because he has an unloaded shotgun in his hand for the girl scouts, that's his problem. Also, opening a door with a gun in a holster doesn't seem nearly as menacing as a shotgun in the hands. I think it would be easier to get a brandishing charge for a shotgun.

I went back to the OP to figure out what the original deal was.

Yes he can answer the door with a gun, loaded or not. There are a lot of ways to do it.

tyrist
04-06-2011, 8:52 PM
Sometime I wonder how certain people have managed to survive.

scarville
04-06-2011, 9:06 PM
Someone might not be intimidated - unloaded isn't that good an idea.

But to answer the original question, yes, it's entirely legal to be armed at home and to answer the door armed.

I'll leave it to each individual to decide the wisdom of it.
About twenty years ago I opened the door to someone pounding on it at about 3:00 AM. I was wearing my underwear and a 357. There were four cops standing there. It was a tense few seconds while nobody moved and I asked, "Can I help you."

Turned out they wanted to go into my yard and check for some guy they were chasing. I locked up the dog and warned to them be careful because it was dark.

That was then. Today they'd probably gun me down and then arrest my wife, daughters and the dog. Which is why I have a camera watching the front door and I won't open it for the cops unless they show me a warrant.

My advice to the OP is to consider finding smarter friends.

SVT-40
04-06-2011, 9:08 PM
Tell your friend to pour gasoline all over himself and light a cigar. IF he tells you "that's stupid I would set my self on fire". Then tell him it's akin to greeting a person at your door brandishing a shotgun.....stupid and dangerous.

Or get yourself a smarter friend. This one sounds like he won't be around for long.

Baconator
04-06-2011, 9:09 PM
About twenty years ago I opened the door to someone pounding on it at about 3:00 AM. I was wearing my underwear and a 357. There were four cops standing there. It was a tense few seconds while nobody moved and I asked, "Can I help you."

Turned out they wanted to go into my yard and check for some guy they were chasing. I locked up the dog and warned to them be careful because it was dark.

That was then. Today they'd probably gun me down and then arrest my wife, daughters and the dog. Which is why I have a camera watching the front door and I won't open it for the cops unless they show me a warrant.

My advice to the OP is to consider finding smarter friends.


http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/85726/85726,1253531259,1/stock-photo-dog-breaking-the-law-pug-laying-down-with-handcuffs-and-keys-37429738.jpg

Saigon1965
04-06-2011, 9:10 PM
Air is still free -

Sometime I wonder how certain people have managed to survive.

E Pluribus Unum
04-06-2011, 9:11 PM
You mean like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2Z5mQdjdIAg/S73fuhOiJcI/AAAAAAAAALQ/42hA8XcdFFo/s1600/Fat-Women--4944.jpg

Baconator
04-06-2011, 9:13 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37371.html

Mr. Burns
04-06-2011, 9:20 PM
Cops get a noise complaint so they go to tell the people to quiet down. Your buddy swings open the front door yelling with a shotgun in hand.

Sure am sorry to hear about your friend. When is the funeral?

hornswaggled
04-06-2011, 9:29 PM
"Hi guys. Sorry, just cleaning my new shotty, do you like it? Oh hey, would you mind leaving now, I'm having a private party. Thanks :)"

CalBear
04-06-2011, 9:33 PM
Answering the door with a holstered OC or CC HG is a much better idea.

madjack956
04-06-2011, 10:13 PM
... and if alcohol is involved, keep the gun locked up. It could end up loaded and used. I gave my friend that very same advice about his wife at my last party...:D

N6ATF
04-06-2011, 10:33 PM
So it is not possible to sling a shotgun and not hold it in your hands, and NOT be guilty of brandishing?

Jeeeezzzuss. :fud:

G1500
04-06-2011, 10:37 PM
Who's bringing the booze?!?!?!

M14 Junkie
04-06-2011, 11:22 PM
My buddy and I were talking about a party this weekend that he is hosting and he was talking about how if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property. I told him this was not legal but he said it was since it was his home and they are unwanted individuals on his property so he has the right to bear arms.

Whose right? And please explain in the simplest/clear was possible so I can relay it to him if he's the one whose wrong.

Thanks!

The question should be; who's the MORON? Clearly, it's your buddy.

Mimi_T
04-06-2011, 11:34 PM
If the purpose is self-defense, the gun should be loaded and kept out of sight of the potential attacker. (By the door, either in the hand or not, but not in a way that whoever is outside will see it.)
That way, no brandishing problem, and no problem of the potential bad guy seeing your gun and shooting you first.

However, why open the door to someone unknown and suspected of being a potential danger?

Sounds more like the guy just wants to use the shotgun to scare off neighbors complaining about the noise etc., which is a bad idea...

morfeeis
04-06-2011, 11:58 PM
I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.
thats how people get killed..........

The Shadow
04-07-2011, 12:11 AM
My buddy and I were talking about a party this weekend that he is hosting and he was talking about how if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property. I told him this was not legal but he said it was since it was his home and they are unwanted individuals on his property so he has the right to bear arms.

Whose right? And please explain in the simplest/clear was possible so I can relay it to him if he's the one whose wrong.

Thanks!

http://blog.mlive.com/projectmayhem/2009/01/large_Clint-Eastwood-453.jpg

This works in the movies, not in real life.

Seeker
04-07-2011, 12:53 AM
My buddy and I were talking about a party this weekend that he is hosting and he was talking about how if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property. I told him this was not legal but he said it was since it was his home and they are unwanted individuals on his property so he has the right to bear arms.

Whose right? And please explain in the simplest/clear was possible so I can relay it to him if he's the one whose wrong.

Thanks!

With all due respect your friend is an idiot if he is gonna do that. It doesnt sound he is responsible enough to own a firearm. Please excuse my language. :kest:

Has your friend ever heard the phrase "Treat a firearm as if its always loaded"?

chiselchst
04-07-2011, 12:59 AM
My buddy and I were talking about a party this weekend that he is hosting and he was talking about how if anyone rings the doorbell he wants to answer it with an unloaded pump action shotgun and tell them to get off his property!

Why not just NOT answer the door?
___________________________

Sometime I wonder how certain people have managed to survive. :rofl2:

johnthomas
04-07-2011, 1:26 AM
That has got to be the dumbest idea he has ever had. Someone is gonna get shot, my guess is the one holding an empty shotgun.

Markus
04-07-2011, 1:37 AM
Sounds to me like the friend either has party crashers or people he just doesnt want over. Either way theres gotta be a better solution such as telling the people they are trespassing and that if they dont leave youll be calling the cops. If you think you need to have a gun to shoo tresspassers off from your party your either doing it wrong or throwing one hell of a party.....

rogervzv
04-07-2011, 1:42 AM
That has got to be the dumbest idea he has ever had. Someone is gonna get shot, my guess is the one holding an empty shotgun.

Parties and alcohol are synonymous. Guns do not mix with alcohol; not ever. Your friend's idea is spectacularly foolish on so many levels that it is hard to begin. That is one party I would not attend for any reason. Like johnthomas says, when there are guns, partying, and alcohol, and worse, someone with an attitude, someone is going to get shot. Very bad show.

Riodog
04-07-2011, 4:05 AM
Sometime I wonder how certain people have managed to survive.

THAT'S AN UNDERSTATEMENT IF EVER I'VE HEARD ONE!
Rio

3GunFunShooter
04-07-2011, 5:14 AM
Find some new friends and stay home this weekend.

daveinwoodland
04-07-2011, 5:51 AM
I don't know, he didn't elaborate. I'm assuming he would have it unloaded just for the intimidation factor.
That can get you killed and in the eyes of the law is no different then being loaded

Maestro Pistolero
04-07-2011, 7:49 AM
Your friend seems to lack the maturity and common sense to own a firearm.

Out of sight until needed for deterrence of an actual attack is strategically best, and will likely contribute to your friend's continued existence on the planet.

sfpcservice
04-07-2011, 8:03 AM
http://blog.mlive.com/projectmayhem/2009/01/large_Clint-Eastwood-453.jpg

This works in the movies, not in real life.

Wasn't that scene depicting gang members attacking his neighbor? If so I'd think it is perfectly legit in "real life".

Besides I think it's a federal law that you can do whatever you want if you are holding an M1. It was the weapon of choice for the good guys.

sfpcservice
04-07-2011, 8:07 AM
To the OP:

Your friend should just dig a few tiger traps with pooh tipped punji sticks at the bottom in his front yard. At least that way it's not something he'll be holding when the police show up.

The Wingnut
04-07-2011, 8:21 AM
This has got to be one of the more stupid things I've heard of lately, on numerous counts:

Throwing a party? Great. Invite friends that you TRUST not to tell anyone or bring along uninvited guests. Alcohol present? Why you even remotely think about having a firearm present in the company of inebriated people, loaded or not?

Answering the door armed? That's fine, I do it all the time when I'm not expecting anyone. The firearm is behind the door, my foot is behind the door to stop the door from opening any further than I need it to communicate effectively, and the party on the other side of the door never knows I'm armed. The firearm has a round in the chamber, a full company of friends in the mag, the safety is off, and my finger is nowhere NEAR the bang switch. If they're someone I need to have a discussion with, I'll excuse myself, close the door, lock it, place the firearm out of sight(coat closet works well), and depending on the situation, I'll either step outside and lock the door behind me, or invite the person in.

Officer at the door? You have nothing illegal in your possession, they may not come in until you see a warrant with your name on it, if they persist, step outside and deliberately lock yourself out of the house. If you answered the door armed, see previous mention of placing the weapon out of harm's way.

Throwing a party in which you expect uninvited guests to show up and brandishing an unloaded firearm at them is a great way to get the crap beaten out of you, arrested, thrown in jail, shot, have your house ransacked, your life turned upside down, all of the above or even more.

STUPID. Ditch that maroon and make new friends.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-07-2011, 9:01 AM
Sometime I wonder how certain people have managed to survive.

Me too.

gun toting monkeyboy
04-07-2011, 10:04 AM
It is NOT brandishing unless he points it at them in a rude or threatening manor. Merely having it in his hands doesn't cut it. He is a freakin' moron. But it isn't illegal unless he does something other than holding it in his hands. And the unloaded part just totally blows my mind. Guns are tools. Not magic talismans that will chase bad guys away by their simple existance and display. But it does sound like your friend may very well be a tool...

As for the wisdom of answering the door armed, I think it depends a great deal on the situation. Popping out with a mall-ninja style AR and camo face paint when the girl scouts show up to sell cookies might be a bit of an over-reaction. I mean I know they can be persistant, but that is a bit much. If, on the other hand, you live in the boonies and a strange car shows up late at night and sits outside of your front door for several minutes with its lights on and the engine running, taking something out with you when you go check on it might be a good idea. Let me tell you, the angry, retarded pizza delivery man looking for his lost cell phone got really polite after he saw a huge revolver stuck in the back of my waistband.

Baconator
04-07-2011, 10:14 AM
It is NOT brandishing unless he points it at them in a rude or threatening manor. Merely having it in his hands doesn't cut it. He is a freakin' moron. But it isn't illegal unless he does something other than holding it in his hands. And the unloaded part just totally blows my mind. Guns are tools. Not magic talismans that will chase bad guys away by their simple existance and display. But it does sound like your friend may very well be a tool...

As for the wisdom of answering the door armed, I think it depends a great deal on the situation. Popping out with a mall-ninja style AR and camo face paint when the girl scouts show up to sell cookies might be a bit of an over-reaction. I mean I know they can be persistant, but that is a bit much. If, on the other hand, you live in the boonies and a strange car shows up late at night and sits outside of your front door for several minutes with its lights on and the engine running, taking something out with you when you go check on it might be a good idea. Let me tell you, the angry, retarded pizza delivery man looking for his lost cell phone got really polite after he saw a huge revolver stuck in the back of my waistband.

Who gets to decide what is a "threatening manner?"

Sent while watching 45David and boberama get it on.

Arondos
04-07-2011, 10:14 AM
I recently moved out of an apartment. I get home from work at about 0030 and typically stay up till around 0200-0300.

I was in a duplex and the maintenance guy lived across from me.

One night about 0200 someone bangs on my front door HARD. I scooped up my 1911 and headed to the door. Looked through the peephole and some guy in shorts and t-shirt is there. He bangs on the door HARD again.

I pretty much did what was posted above. Blocked the door with my foot so it could only crack a little, kept the .45 tucked sort of behind my hip. and unlocked the door.

Ends up he had a water leak and wanted the maintenance guy. I told him you got the wrong apartment. You want the one across the hall, without thinking I started to point with my right hand. The look on his face when the .45 got in view almost made me laugh.

SexPistol
04-07-2011, 10:21 AM
So basically, I was right and it would be a bad idea on his part. And yes this kid isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but he does throw some pretty good parties where the guy to girl ratio is great so that's the main reason I wanted to go.

The only thing I'm unclear on now is it still brandishing if you answer a door with a fire arm at your side visible or not, and if it is visible not pointed at someone? Party or not.

-Sean

gun toting monkeyboy
04-07-2011, 11:05 AM
No. It is not brandishing unless you point it at them or gesture with it in a rude or threatening manner. Having it on your person is NOT brandishing. On the other hand, coming to the door drunk and waving it around at somebody very well could be considered brandishing.

SexPistol
04-07-2011, 11:27 AM
Alright that makes sense and what I was thinking.

Don29palms
04-07-2011, 11:35 AM
I have 50yds between my front gate and my front door. I have 6 big dogs that have free roam of 2.5 acres. Noone comes to my front door without calling me first.

odysseus
04-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Outside of the silly point of being unloaded, you really have to be careful. Appearing holding a weapon, while at the same time voluntarily opening a door to them, brings with it a very slippery place for you. Technically in theory as posted not illegal, but fraught with issues. You can easily be accused erroneously of pointing or menacing someone with it causing them fear for their life, even have the other person outright lie to LE that you threatened them and pointed at them - which I have heard of specifically.

It is not something to be taken with all assumptions that you are above reproach.

Ding126
04-07-2011, 12:26 PM
With all due respect your friend is an idiot if he is gonna do that. It doesnt sound he is responsible enough to own a firearm. Please excuse my language.

^^^^This

MultiCaliber
04-07-2011, 12:42 PM
Aye, this guy is a moron. Get to the party early, grab the woman you want and book it before anything bad has a chance to happen.

Fate
04-07-2011, 12:48 PM
Easy, answer the door with a pistol in one hand behind the door. Only have 1/2 your body out. Let the guy never see the gun.

Or if you don't know who the guy is, don't answer the door.

http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/e/ed/Leon-Beretta92FSComp-2.jpg/600px-Leon-Beretta92FSComp-2.jpg

gobler
04-07-2011, 1:57 PM
Wasn't that scene depicting gang members attacking his neighbor? If so I'd think it is perfectly legit in "real life".

Besides I think it's a federal law that you can do whatever you want if you are holding an M1. It was the weapon of choice for the good guys.

I just watched this last night.. Clint mentioned (or asked) at one point what the Asian girls family was doing in the Mid West where it snowed so much.. So this was way outside of Ca and could very well be legal.

SexPistol
04-07-2011, 3:21 PM
Aye, this guy is a moron. Get to the party early, grab the woman you want and book it before anything bad has a chance to happen.

Hell yeah! :D

MasterYong
04-07-2011, 3:28 PM
The real question is: why would I answer the door WITHOUT being armed???

Seriously. I. Do. Not. Open. The. Door. Without. A. Gun.

Too many home invasions to take the chance.

Now, should you answer the door with a friggin' SHOTGUN, telling people to get off your lawn? No. Should you do it while you're throwing a party (where I'll assume cops may be called due to noise)? No. Too much chances of you getting into trouble.

Legal and smart are rarely the same thing.

I typically answer the door with a handgun, and keep it behind the door so that it's not seen. My friends are used to it (most of them being avid shooters) so they don't mind when I invite them in and they notice I'm holding a loaded gun.

I prefer not to use a holster when answering the door because it's too visible. I believe in discretion.

uyoga
04-07-2011, 3:44 PM
You might want to tell him to make sure he has plenty of insurance and his will is up to date . . . just in case.

sfpcservice
04-07-2011, 3:45 PM
I just watched this last night.. Clint mentioned (or asked) at one point what the Asian girls family was doing in the Mid West where it snowed so much.. So this was way outside of Ca and could very well be legal.

Yeah I think it is supposed to be Detroit.... If you're not pointing a gun at someone in Detroit you're behind the power curve is what it comes down to I think. Perfectly understandable.

Wherryj
04-07-2011, 3:51 PM
Your friend might win the criminal case but would lose the civil case....aren't lawyers great

What's even better is that win or lose, you still get to pay!

Paradiddle
04-07-2011, 3:53 PM
Sometime I wonder how certain people have managed to survive.

And dress themselves in the morning...

Patriot Man
04-07-2011, 4:21 PM
I am thinking more along the lines of why express the intention of deadly force if you aren't needing to use deadly force. Your friend opens the door to someone who doesn't know him and he has a shotgun in his hand. That person calls 911, a SWAT standoff ensues. I don't think anything good will come of this idea.

I second that. Unless the guy lives in Watts or something with gangsters, not sure if legal but not wise.

Patriot Man
04-07-2011, 4:26 PM
I have 50yds between my front gate and my front door. I have 6 big dogs that have free roam of 2.5 acres. Noone comes to my front door without calling me first.

I am jealous. That is awesome :eek:

San FranPsycho
04-07-2011, 4:38 PM
Horrible idea. If the gun is unloaded, real, fake, loaded - in the eyes of the law if you brandish it, it is all the same. I have an acquaintance who was charged with armed robbery for stealing a 6 pack from a liquor store - in the process of running away he pulled up his pants which the clerk supposedly thought him brandishing a gun. Lucky he had a good lawyer.

In addition, Guns and alcohol/parties do not mix AT ALL. Horrible idea regardless of legality to begin with...

InGrAM
04-07-2011, 5:48 PM
This is just stupid. Why would you answer your door with a shotgun to people that are coming into your own home?

Your friend is just looking to piss someone off.

Sounds like a kid that got out daddy's shotgun to show off, when daddy went on vacation.....

taperxz
04-07-2011, 6:37 PM
This is just stupid. Why would you answer your door with a shotgun to people that are coming into your own home?

Your friend is just looking to piss someone off.

Sounds like a kid that got out daddy's shotgun to show off, when daddy went on vacation.....

^^^^^^^this times a MILLION

I can't fathom why this thread continues the way it has!!

SexPistol
04-07-2011, 6:53 PM
I'm not sure either, I guess people have opinions they want to express still. All I know is I'm leaving as soon as I find a slam pig or when/if a fire arm comes out.

Cokebottle
04-07-2011, 7:17 PM
It is NOT brandishing unless he points it at them in a rude or threatening manor. Merely having it in his hands doesn't cut it.
Wrong.

Pointing it at someone is not required for brandishing.

Brandishing is "display"

If you get into a road-rage tussle, lift a handgun above the edge of the door, pointed in a way that displays the side of the gun to the other driver, it's still brandishing.

Seriously, if I draw my gun "in anger", someone is going to get shot unless the circumstances change VERY quickly.

Quiet
04-07-2011, 7:27 PM
Answering the door with a holstered OC or CC HG is a much better idea.

:iagree:

I've done this before. Never had a compliant or LEOs showing up because someone got scared.

Cokebottle
04-07-2011, 7:28 PM
So basically, I was right and it would be a bad idea on his part. And yes this kid isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but he does throw some pretty good parties where the guy to girl ratio is great so that's the main reason I wanted to go.

The only thing I'm unclear on now is it still brandishing if you answer a door with a fire arm at your side visible or not, and if it is visible not pointed at someone? Party or not.
Here is the actual law.
Pointing at someone is not required. If the gun is displayed with the intent to intimidate, it's illegal. Displaying the gun while yelling "Get the hell off of my property" is pretty intimidating, and within the letter of the law... "rude, angry, or threatening"
PC417(a)
(1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30 days.
(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:
BTW: Remind him of
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/prohibcatmisd.pdf
10 year firearms prohibition for brandishing... even a NON-firearm!
If he answers the door holding a baseball bat and someone calls the cops, he can kiss his shotgun goodbye for 10 years.

It gets worse....
If he does it in the presence of a cop, or gets two convictions (two people at the door, they both press charges), it's a LIFETIME firearms prohibition!

SexPistol
04-07-2011, 8:12 PM
What if you say "please get off my property" lol

Cokebottle
04-07-2011, 8:17 PM
What if you say "please get off my property" lol
Legal....

But given the circumstances (unloaded, alcohol at the party), still stupid.

Seeker
04-08-2011, 3:14 AM
To the OP:

Your friend should just dig a few tiger traps with pooh tipped punji sticks at the bottom in his front yard. At least that way it's not something he'll be holding when the police show up.

That my friend, is illegal and will still land him in jail nonetheless :yes:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12355.php

erik
04-08-2011, 6:37 PM
That my friend, is illegal and will still land him in jail nonetheless :yes:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12355.php

Yes, and the point of the exercise: It's one step *up* from "shot where he stands." ;)

misterjake
04-08-2011, 6:45 PM
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/e/ed/Leon-Beretta92FSComp-2.jpg/600px-Leon-Beretta92FSComp-2.jpg

LOL! Not pointed through the door of course, just have it ready. :)

Dirtbozz
04-08-2011, 6:59 PM
Someone might not be intimidated - unloaded isn't that good an idea.

But to answer the original question, yes, it's entirely legal to be armed at home and to answer the door armed.

I'll leave it to each individual to decide the wisdom of it.

Wisdom? If you are willing to pull the trigger to protect your family and yourself (always carry loaded) then do it. If not, your just giving as weapon to your adversary. Understand that you must be prepared to use a weapon if needed. Otherwise, leave it in the closet (or other appropriate storage location).

Cokebottle
04-08-2011, 7:16 PM
Wisdom? If you are willing to pull the trigger to protect your family and yourself (always carry loaded) then do it. If not, your just giving as weapon to your adversary. Understand that you must be prepared to use a weapon if needed. Otherwise, leave it in the closet (or other appropriate storage location).
Indeed. A gun is like a fire extinguisher.
It's better to have it and not need it than it is to not have it and need it.

However, a fire is NOT like a criminal.
A fire is not going to grab your extinguisher and use it on you if you hesitate.

N6ATF
04-08-2011, 7:25 PM
Can you answer the front door of your home bearing a fire extinguisher?

Cokebottle
04-08-2011, 7:49 PM
Can you answer the front door of your home bearing a fire extinguisher?
Perhaps a smarter option for a party with alcohol involved.

N6ATF
04-08-2011, 8:52 PM
What if you're not consuming alcohol? Is there such a thing as secondhand alcoholism?

Baconator
04-08-2011, 8:54 PM
What if you're not consuming alcohol? Is there such a thing as secondhand alcoholism?

I'm sure there is in this state. I know someone who could likely find a support group for such a thing.

Cokebottle
04-08-2011, 8:57 PM
What if you're not consuming alcohol? Is there such a thing as secondhand alcoholism?
Having a shotgun anywhere but locked in the safe when there are intoxicated people in the home is stupid.

N6ATF
04-08-2011, 8:57 PM
I'm sure there is in this state. I know someone who could likely find a support group for such a thing.

Actually, since CA doesn't prohibit drinking and carry, maybe not. Though in AZ and other "free states" you are guilty by association if you carry and only consume non-alcoholic beverages at an establishment that serves food and alcohol to others. Until that law is fixed, the support group would have to take the form of a dry restaurant association so those of us who never drink know where to patronize in safety.

jonnyt16
04-08-2011, 9:51 PM
I don't understand all this talk about "brandishing". How the hell can you be brandishing in your own home?? Say I'm cleaning a rifle/pistol/shotgun in my kitchen while someone knocks on the door and I decide to answer the door with said rifle/pistol/shotgun in hand, I can be charged with brandishing??

Cokebottle
04-08-2011, 10:34 PM
I don't understand all this talk about "brandishing". How the hell can you be brandishing in your own home?? Say I'm cleaning a rifle/pistol/shotgun in my kitchen while someone knocks on the door and I decide to answer the door with said rifle/pistol/shotgun in hand, I can be charged with brandishing??
Please read the law:
PC417(a)
(1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30 days.
(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:
Nowhere in the law does it specify WHERE the violation taking place being pertinent to the charge. By the book, if you pull a gun on your wife in a "rude, angry, or threatening manner", in addition to the DV charge, you would be looking at a brandishing charge as well.
Would matter that the brandishing charge is a 10 year prohibition because the misdemeanor DV is lifetime.

There is a fine line between a brandishing charge and a successful self-defense situation that resulted in no shots fired.
And in the case of the latter, you had better be the first person to speak to the police about the incident.

Note PC417(a)(1)... the same applies to a weapon other than a firearm. Knife, bat, tire iron, etc...

jonnyt16
04-09-2011, 12:05 AM
PC417(a)
(1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30 days.
(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:
Ah, okay, so only in an angry, rude, or threatening manner is brandishing. That is what I thought, its just some posters here made it seem like answering the door with a gun is brandishing as well. Thanks.

Scarecrow Repair
04-09-2011, 5:33 AM
Ah, okay, so only in an angry, rude, or threatening manner is brandishing. That is what I thought, its just some posters here made it seem like answering the door with a gun is brandishing as well. Thanks.

Yes, but remember that a lot of people are scared to tremors just at the sight of a gun, and in this state, *you* will have to spend a ton of money to convince a jury that you weren't scaring the jabeezus out of the poor innocent victim, and if alcohol was present, the cops and prosecutor are going to have a field day mopping up your bank account.

OneApart
04-09-2011, 6:00 AM
that's a really dumb idea, if you are going to have a shotgun, i recommend at least having the magazine full


don't brandish it at anyone that's not threatening you

^^^this^^^

jpigeon
04-09-2011, 7:22 AM
That got a guy killed in Long Beach by the police. If I recall correctly...

Baconator
04-09-2011, 8:38 AM
That got a guy killed in Long Beach by the police. If I recall correctly...

He didn't even have a gun...

Luieburger
04-09-2011, 9:01 AM
If somebody rings the doorbell and you don't want them to come in... don't answer the door? I have a friend who had a mysterious knock at the door of his apartment at 3:00AM. He took a peek outside and saw that it was somebody he didn't know and didn't want to let in, so he did the smart thing and enjoyed the cool touch of his P226 and the warm glow of his Meprolight sights until the guy went away.

jpigeon
04-09-2011, 10:21 AM
He didn't even have a gun...

Not the water gun guy. This one happened a few years ago. In the middle of the night the cops were lookin for a bad guy in a apt complex. They knocked on a tennants door. Tennant answered door with "gun" and cops shot first and asked questions later. The guy was a postal worker with no criminal background. It happened in LB or maybe Inglewood. But u get the point.

stitchnicklas
04-09-2011, 10:45 AM
if someone knocks on my door in the middle of the night,i will have my glock with me,why??
because my front door is behind a 5ft gate attached to a 6ft fence,if you are knocking then you climbed the gate illegally and are a trespasser...

E Pluribus Unum
04-09-2011, 10:52 AM
Ah, okay, so only in an angry, rude, or threatening manner is brandishing. That is what I thought, its just some posters here made it seem like answering the door with a gun is brandishing as well. Thanks.

"Brandishing" is subjective. It comes down to what the arresting officer says. Without a camera, there is no way to prove exactly HOW you possessed the firearm.

Cokebottle
04-09-2011, 12:14 PM
"Brandishing" is subjective. It comes down to what the arresting officer says. Without a camera, there is no way to prove exactly HOW you possessed the firearm.
Basically, if drawn "in anger", it's not brandishing if it would have been a "good shoot".
It is brandishing if it would not have been a "good shoot"

That is if there is an actual confrontation and the gun actually is displayed in a threatening manner.

No confrontation? That's where it comes down to your perception vs the person you encountered, and it is important to get a good read on the person you encountered to know if you should call the cops to report the encounter before they do.

jonnyt16
04-09-2011, 12:29 PM
"Brandishing" is subjective. It comes down to what the arresting officer says. Without a camera, there is no way to prove exactly HOW you possessed the firearm.
Then if they can't prove how you possessed the firearm, how can they possibly find you guilty of "brandishing"??

This thread is making my head hurt.

E Pluribus Unum
04-09-2011, 1:57 PM
Basically, if drawn "in anger", it's not brandishing if it would have been a "good shoot".
It is brandishing if it would not have been a "good shoot"

That is if there is an actual confrontation and the gun actually is displayed in a threatening manner.

No confrontation? That's where it comes down to your perception vs the person you encountered, and it is important to get a good read on the person you encountered to know if you should call the cops to report the encounter before they do.



Then if they can't prove how you possessed the firearm, how can they possibly find you guilty of "brandishing"??

This thread is making my head hurt.



Brandishing is a misdemeanor; as such, an officer would have to see you do it; a private party arrest for brandishing really isn't going to stand up without video evidence. A brandishing charge that carries weight is where an officer has seen you, and the officer considered it threatening.

Without video, it's your word vs. the officer and it will probably be 50/50 depending on the jury.

Cokebottle
04-09-2011, 2:07 PM
Brandishing is a misdemeanor; as such, an officer would have to see you do it; a private party arrest for brandishing really isn't going to stand up without video evidence.
I don't believe that is the case.

There are a lot of crimes that are committed, both misdemeanor and felony, with no officers as witnesses, where successful arrests and convictions are made.

Also, brandishing is a 10 year prohibition, brandishing in the presence of an officer if a lifetime prohibition. If the officer were required to witness the act, then it would always be a lifetime prohibition and there would be no point in the single 417(a)(1) or (a)(2) charge being a 10 year prohibition.

HondaMasterTech
04-09-2011, 2:08 PM
I thought "brandishing" was something cowboys did to their cows.

N6ATF
04-09-2011, 2:32 PM
For an officer to take someone into custody for a misdemeanor offense, usually the victim or a witness will have to make a citizen's arrest.

Connor P Price
04-09-2011, 4:43 PM
There are a lot of crimes that are committed, both misdemeanor and felony, with no officers as witnesses, where successful arrests and convictions are made.

That is due very largely to people saying to much when they should have said nothing. If they get you to admit to it then you're done for.

If one tells an officer "I answered the door with my shotgun in my hand so the dirtbag would know I mean business and should get the heck off my porch." It sounds like the purpose was to be threatening before there was ever an imminent threat to the homeowner.

Cokebottle
04-09-2011, 4:51 PM
That is due very largely to people saying to much when they should have said nothing. If they get you to admit to it then you're done for.

If one tells an officer "I answered the door with my shotgun in my hand so the dirtbag would know I mean business and should get the heck off my porch." It sounds like the purpose was to be threatening before there was ever an imminent threat to the homeowner.
Yup. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

But how else will it play out?

"Sir, were you holding your shotgun when you answered the door?"
"Yes"
"And what did you say?"
"I told him that he was not invited to the party and to leave"
"I have 4 witnesses that say that you said 'Get the hell off of my property' and racked the action on the shotgun"
Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

"Sir, were you holding your shotgun when you answered the door?"
"I am not going to answer that question"
"And what did you say?"
"I am not going to answer that question"
"I have 4 witnesses that say that you said 'Get the hell off of my property' and racked the action on the shotgun"
Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Charges may not stick in the latter situation, but you are still going to be spending a few bucks on bail, hopefully recover your gun, and you won't be enjoying the rest of your party.

SparrowHanger
04-09-2011, 5:33 PM
It is NOT brandishing unless he points it at them in a rude or threatening manor. Merely having it in his hands doesn't cut it.

There's the problem, "what is a rude or threatening manner". I think a lot of people call it rude and threatening having a shotgun pulled by a guy ordering them off of his property, when all they did was go to his door, even if it is never pointed at them.

silversix
04-09-2011, 5:36 PM
He's asking for it. Doesn't he have a peep hole?

SparrowHanger
04-09-2011, 5:45 PM
Yes, but remember that a lot of people are scared to tremors just at the sight of a gun, and in this state, *you* will have to spend a ton of money to convince a jury that you weren't scaring the jabeezus out of the poor innocent victim, and if alcohol was present, the cops and prosecutor are going to have a field day mopping up your bank account.

That is if you get to a jury. Worse case scenario is some green pea LEO is dispatched and when he knocks on your buddy's door your friend answers holding his shotgun. The only legal proceeding may be a coroner's inquest.

E Pluribus Unum
04-09-2011, 6:43 PM
I don't believe that is the case.

There are a lot of crimes that are committed, both misdemeanor and felony, with no officers as witnesses, where successful arrests and convictions are made.

Also, brandishing is a 10 year prohibition, brandishing in the presence of an officer if a lifetime prohibition. If the officer were required to witness the act, then it would always be a lifetime prohibition and there would be no point in the single 417(a)(1) or (a)(2) charge being a 10 year prohibition.

There are only few misdemeanors that do not require the officer to see it. The two biggest ones are DUI, and domestic violence.

In all other cases, if it's a misdemeanor, the person that witnessed the crime would have to do a citizen's arrest, with the officer's instruction.


Yup. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

But how else will it play out?

"Sir, were you holding your shotgun when you answered the door?"
"Yes"
"And what did you say?"
"I told him that he was not invited to the party and to leave"
"I have 4 witnesses that say that you said 'Get the hell off of my property' and racked the action on the shotgun"
Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

"Sir, were you holding your shotgun when you answered the door?"
"I am not going to answer that question"
"And what did you say?"
"I am not going to answer that question"
"I have 4 witnesses that say that you said 'Get the hell off of my property' and racked the action on the shotgun"
Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Charges may not stick in the latter situation, but you are still going to be spending a few bucks on bail, hopefully recover your gun, and you won't be enjoying the rest of your party.


In the above situation, if there are 4 witnesses to the crime, then one of the four would need to perform a citizen's arrest. If none were willing, the officer could not arrest the "perp". He would need to file a complaint, request a warrant, and a judge would then issue an arrest warrant, and then the officer could arrest pursuant to the warrant. This would take more time of course, but it still stands- an officer can only arrest at the scene if he witnesses it, or someone who did is willing to do a private party arrest.

Purple K
04-10-2011, 9:34 AM
Bearing is not brandishing.

tyrist
04-10-2011, 9:48 AM
For an officer to take someone into custody for a misdemeanor offense, usually the victim or a witness will have to make a citizen's arrest.

Functionally in the case of "brandishing" you are booked for assault with a deadly weapon and plea it down to the misdemeanor offense of brandishing.

Scarecrow Repair
04-10-2011, 10:50 AM
Bearing is not brandishing.

Don't be dense. Bearing is intimidating to those who want it to be intimidating. Intimidating is brandishing. Brandishing is arrest. Arrest is thousands of dollars to fix.