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View Full Version : CZ-452 elevation adjustment.


rojocorsa
04-06-2011, 11:44 AM
I know that to adjust the elevation on my CZ, that I need to loosen the screw and push up the front sight to make it taller. It looks like I need one tiny allen wrench to do this.


I have two questions:

What size allen wrench do I need?

How much do I need to raise the front sight to make it "dead center?" I notice there are some hash marks on the sight ramp, but I have no idea of what their calibration is. I am tired of having to do a six o clock hold to be able to be on target at 50 yards WITH my rear sight all the way down to 25m. (This is how I've managed so far, but now that I feel comfortable, I would like to actually have the sights zeroed.)


And 50yards is a good distance for the zero for a .22, correct?

Thanks

donw
04-06-2011, 5:41 PM
50 yards is the 'normal zero' for .22 rimfire

raising the front sight will normally LOWER the bullet impact; it lowers the muzzle.

is your rear sight a sliding ramp style also?

sighting in is a matter of trial and error for the biggest part.

i doubt the hash marks are in specific increments/measurements they're mostly to give you reference points in the adjustment procedure. the measurement of how the bullet impact changes when you change it will have to be determined by you: you move the sight one hash mark and the impact was 1" higher/lower at XX yards, the marks represent 1"@ XX yards...you have to work it out.

get a gallon of ice tea, some sandwiches and bunch of ammo and make a fun afternoon out of sighting in.

if you can, take it to a gunsmith or knowledgeable friend with a bore sighting tool, and have him bore sight it for you and adjust from there.

stockranger
04-06-2011, 5:53 PM
don't think about it too much. set the rear sight at 25 yards and sight in at 25 yards. It'll take a few groups. After that you will be on target to 100 yards atleast by just sliding the rear sight.

I shoot winchester subsonic HP and i'm good to atleast 125 yards after sighting in like this. The rear sight is designed for high velocity 40 gr like mini mags. So at some point with subsonics they will be dropping so much faster then the high velocity the sight will be off. If you shoot high velocity it should be dead on all the way out to the maximum setting on the rear sight.

Izzy43
04-06-2011, 8:20 PM
don't think about it too much. set the rear sight at 25 yards and sight in at 25 yards. It'll take a few groups. After that you will be on target to 100 yards atleast by just sliding the rear sight.

I shoot winchester subsonic HP and i'm good to atleast 125 yards after sighting in like this. The rear sight is designed for high velocity 40 gr like mini mags. So at some point with subsonics they will be dropping so much faster then the high velocity the sight will be off. If you shoot high velocity it should be dead on all the way out to the maximum setting on the rear sight.

What ^ said. To add a little, adjust the front sight and shoot at least 3 rounds before adjusting again to the center of those 3 rounds, repeat until HAPPY!

rojocorsa
04-07-2011, 9:44 AM
So you guys are saying that if I zero to 25 yds, then I can slide the rear sight to any distance and it will be dead-on?



And yes, I do want to lower the POI; it just shoots too damn high.


Would I be wrong in making the FS as tall as possible in the beginning?

Izzy43
04-07-2011, 10:11 AM
So you guys are saying that if I zero to 25 yds, then I can slide the rear sight to any distance and it will be dead-on?



And yes, I do want to lower the POI; it just shoots too damn high.


Would I be wrong in making the FS as tall as possible in the beginning?

Best I can tell you is that my CZ UltraLux front sight post was right in the middle of the channel and the rifle was dead on at 50 yds. Of course ammo can make a difference in POI. I think if you start in the middle or as high as possible really doesn't matter. Just pick a range (25 or 50yds). Set the rear sight to that reading and start adjusting the height of the front sight. Remember that the higher you set the front sight the lower the POI. Go in baby steps with that front sight.

As far as zeroing at 25yds and being dead on at 100yds, that's not correct. It will more likely be on again between 70-75 yards. A typical .22lr HV round will drop 6" from a 50yd zero when shot at a 100yd target.

Also the CZ iron sights are calibrated in meters so calibrating in yds for a zero point is OK but it will be off slightly at all ranges on the sight beyond what ever your zero yardage is. Not a lot but just so you are aware and don't go fiddiling with it to get it on at all settings on the rear sight.

Here is some info from Chuck Hawes website on 22lr ballistics and recommended zero point.

================
The .22 Long Rifle is by far the most popular small game caliber in the world. The High Velocity Hollow Point version of this old cartridge seems to be just about ideal for the purpose. CCI Mini-Mag, Federal Classic, Remington Golden Bullet, and Winchester Super-X .22 LR-HP ammunition are all examples of the type. These use 36-38 grain copper plated LHP bullets at a muzzle velocity (MV) of about 1280 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 131 ft. lbs. (Remington figures). They are powerful enough to kill quickly, but not so powerful that a chest shot blows the animal apart. The trajectory of the .22 LR cartridge is such that its maximum point blank range (MPBR) +/- 1 inch is about 85 yards. Zero a scoped rifle using one of these high velocity HP loads at 25 yards and the bullet passes through the line of sight for the second time at about 75 yards. The mid-range rise of a .22 so sighted is about 1 inch.

===============

The iron sights on a CZ sit much lower than a scope so the ranges listed above will change somewhat from that stated in the article. Still good info. In short what he is saying is that a .22lr zeroed at 25yds will rise 1" at some point in its flight to 75yds where it will once again be right on target. Thats with a scope height that is 1.5" above the center of the bore.

rojocorsa
04-07-2011, 10:42 AM
Thank Izzy. That helps some.


I guess I should just strive for a 50yd zero, which is the distance I shoot anyway.


At least learning about all of this is really helpful for when I get serious about center fire precision rigs.


In the past, I had been looking for a ballistic graph of 40gr .22 LR HV, but I couldn't find any. Some charts, yes, but no line graphs with a trajectory curve.



Oh, and how would I remove my FS hood to get to the sight a little easier?

stockranger
04-07-2011, 10:46 AM
yes, as long as you slide the rear sight you will be close enough for hunting and plinking out to 100 yards after sighting in at 25 with whatever ammo you shoot.

If using ihigh velocity ammo it will probably be dead on at all ranges sliding the rear sight. If you shoot subsonic you would be about 2" low at 100 yards and how much you are off will continue to increase from there.

The sights compensate for about 6" of drop at 100 yards for the HV ammo. SS ammo drops 8" at 100 yards. So that makes it 2" low. that is still close enough to hold dead on the center of a soda can or rabbit and hit it. Since the sight blade covers most the target at that range I don't see 2" making much difference.

I recomend SS ammo. It is far more accurate past 50 yards then any HV. As the bullet goes from super sonic to sub sonic it creates a wave of turbulance in the air that destabalizes the bullet and ruins the accuracy. Try the winchester subsonic HP. Devastating on game, almost silent out of the lux, very accurate. Only cost about 30 bucks for 500 rounds at bass pro.

rojocorsa
04-07-2011, 10:55 AM
The stuff I usually shoot these days is CCI Blazer, it's HV.


But I have a brick of RWS R-50 at my disposal. The reason I don't really shoot it yet is because I don't feel that I am yet proficient enough to get good use out of it. I would also try Wolf MT when I run out of R-50.

******
Gentlemen, I'm afraid it seems like there is conflicting info in this thread and I am now confused.

As far as zeroing at 25yds and being dead on at 100yds, that's not correct. It will more likely be on again between 70-75 yards. A typical .22lr HV round will drop 6" from a 50yd zero when shot at a 100yd target.

yes, as long as you slide the rear sight you will be close enough for hunting and plinking out to 100 yards after sighting in at 25 with whatever ammo you shoot.

Unless I missed something. ???

stockranger
04-07-2011, 11:04 AM
RWS and ELEY are too expensive for iron sight shooting unless you are in competition.

Those probably shoot better then winchester but my lux will shoot .25" groups at 50 yards with the winchester stuff and a good rest. The ratio of price and accuracy is excellent. Of course my lux is glass bedded with a trigger job and striker spring.

If you haven't tried a JNP ghost ring you should. It is only 15 bucks and makes the irons much easier to use. I like the largest size myself because the smaller ones make really bad eye strain for me. It looks like this.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p27/plantshaman/lux009.jpg

If you site in at either 25 or 50 that blazer ammo should be just about dead on from 10 to 250 yards.

rojocorsa
04-07-2011, 11:44 AM
The RWS was actually gifted to me. I got lucky in that regard!

Izzy43
04-07-2011, 4:16 PM
The stuff I usually shoot these days is CCI Blazer, it's HV.


But I have a brick of RWS R-50 at my disposal. The reason I don't really shoot it yet is because I don't feel that I am yet proficient enough to get good use out of it. I would also try Wolf MT when I run out of R-50.

******
Gentlemen, I'm afraid it seems like there is conflicting info in this thread and I am now confused.





Unless I missed something. ???

What in my post(s) is confusing? Please state what it is and I will attempt to clarify what I meant.

Beetle Bailey
04-07-2011, 7:27 PM
You might be overthinking this. When I got mine, I set the rear sight to 25 and zeroed the rifle at 25 yards with Wolf Match. Then I put my target out at 50 yards and set the rear sight to 50. Shooting the same Wolf Match ammo, it was dead on so I didn't need to fine-tune any further.

You have to trust your shooting skills and always use a clean paper target. A spotting scope and Shoot-N-C's helped a lot when I did it. It's been several years and almost 30,000 rounds now and I haven't touched the front sight since the first day I shot the rifle.

rojocorsa
04-07-2011, 9:22 PM
What in my post(s) is confusing? Please state what it is and I will attempt to clarify what I meant.

Stockranger is saying that I can zero at 25, and that I'll be dead on at other distances so as long as I raise the rear sight. (At least that's what I understood).

And Izzy, you said this
As far as zeroing at 25yds and being dead on at 100yds, that's not correct. It will more likely be on again between 70-75 yards. A typical .22lr HV round will drop 6" from a 50yd zero when shot at a 100yd target.





Sorry.

rojocorsa
04-07-2011, 9:25 PM
You might be overthinking this. When I got mine, I set the rear sight to 25 and zeroed the rifle at 25 yards with Wolf Match. Then I put my target out at 50 yards and set the rear sight to 50. Shooting the same Wolf Match ammo, it was dead on so I didn't need to fine-tune any further.

You have to trust your shooting skills and always use a clean paper target. A spotting scope and Shoot-N-C's helped a lot when I did it. It's been several years and almost 30,000 rounds now and I haven't touched the front sight since the first day I shot the rifle.

When I fist got the rifle, I shot it poorly. Of course, I didn't even have a feel of how the sights worked. Given that my sight is low on the ramp making it short, it shoots high at 50. The first time I shot the gun I wasn't even on target because I had the rear sight at 50m in addition to that low front sight.

Man, I really feel like I've come a long way....



BTW, what size allen wrench do I need to loosen the capture screw for the FS? I never found out.

stockranger
04-07-2011, 10:26 PM
Stockranger is saying that I can zero at 25, and that I'll be dead on at other distances so as long as I raise the rear sight. (At least that's what I understood).

And Izzy, you said this





Sorry.

Izzy is explaining the trajectorys IF YOU DO NOT SLIDE THE REAR TANGENT SIGHT FOR THE DISTANCE. His trajectory is correct.

I explained it assuming you are going to slide the rear sight for each distance. The rear sight is calibrated from the factory to the typical HV trajectory. Just slide it and it moves up and down allowing you to be dead on from 12.5 to 250 meters.What izzy explained is engineered into the rear sight and it makes it the best factory sight on the market.

If you haven't memorized .22lr trajectory you should. It will help you be a better shot. Learn the SS and HV trajectory so you can estimate how it will differ from the factory calibration when shooting different kinds of ammo. Sometimes when hunting there may be no time to adjust the sight if the rabbit is running so you need to know the charts. I adjust it for every shot when I slowly stalk sitting rabbits and it works great if there is time. If you don't hunt then you will always have time to set it to the right distance.

Izzy43
04-08-2011, 7:41 AM
Izzy is explaining the trajectorys IF YOU DO NOT SLIDE THE REAR TANGENT SIGHT FOR THE DISTANCE. His trajectory is correct.

I explained it assuming you are going to slide the rear sight for each distance. The rear sight is calibrated from the factory to the typical HV trajectory. Just slide it and it moves up and down allowing you to be dead on from 12.5 to 250 meters.What izzy explained is engineered into the rear sight and it makes it the best factory sight on the market.

If you haven't memorized .22lr trajectory you should. It will help you be a better shot. Learn the SS and HV trajectory so you can estimate how it will differ from the factory calibration when shooting different kinds of ammo. Sometimes when hunting there may be no time to adjust the sight if the rabbit is running so you need to know the charts. I adjust it for every shot when I slowly stalk sitting rabbits and it works great if there is time. If you don't hunt then you will always have time to set it to the right distance.

Thanks, that was what I was trying to explain but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Sorry for confusing anyone about the trajectory issue.

rojocorsa
04-08-2011, 11:08 AM
Oh, OK. I get it know. Thanks!



It makes me feel even better about my purchase. People keep telling me that the sights were excellent, but I didn't necessarily understand why. So an iron sight zero at 25 it is.

Thanks guys!

stockranger
04-08-2011, 1:33 PM
Check out JnP gunsprings for the ghost sight. It will take the place of the rear sight blade as I showed you in the photo. All you have to do is center the tip of the post in the circle Your eye will quickly and naturaly center it up. If your sight picture is like the photo the shot would of gone a tad low as the tip of the post is just below the center.

You can read more about it on rimfirecentral.com

Beetle Bailey
04-08-2011, 6:44 PM
When I fist got the rifle, I shot it poorly. Of course, I didn't even have a feel of how the sights worked. Given that my sight is low on the ramp making it short, it shoots high at 50. The first time I shot the gun I wasn't even on target because I had the rear sight at 50m in addition to that low front sight.

Man, I really feel like I've come a long way....



BTW, what size allen wrench do I need to loosen the capture screw for the FS? I never found out.

I wish you were local so I could just meet you at the range and help you in person. :p

As for what size allen wrench, I haven't a clue. I guess my model is older since my front sight capture screw is held on by a slotted screw so I just used a very thin flat-head screw tip from my gunsmithing screwdriver set. I bought mine in 2003 BTW. And don't worry too much about how high or low the front sight sits in the slot - all that matters is that the rifle is zeroed for the ammo you will be using.

Also, your CZ IS a great rifle and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

rojocorsa
04-10-2011, 7:48 PM
Thanks Beetle.




(If anyone else knows what size wrench I need, please let me know so I can go buy it and zero my rifle).

Thank You.

rojocorsa
04-12-2011, 9:26 PM
I've been looking at my front sight screw...I'm going to take a guess that it is 0.5mm?

milotrain
04-14-2011, 1:36 PM
• If you haven't pulled the hood off yet be careful doing it. You have to spread it a little and pull it forward, but make sure you PULL it forward, don't push it. The front sight blade is hooked back and will tear a nice deep hole out of your hand or thumb.
• Buy a set of small metric allen wrenches, it's not worth buying the wrong one once. I don't know the size.
• Get the ghost ring right away, it's fantastic.
• Here is a slideshow (http://www.flickr.com/photos/32985494@N00/sets/72157594523768066/show/) I made for disassembling the bolt on the 452.
• I use JDewy .17 rods (the .22 is too tight) with .22LR over-sized patches and .223 brush with adapter.
• I lowered the trigger creep by rolling a strip of copper sheet around the trigger pin and soldering it closed. This had the benefit of not having to drive the pin out and back in but I felt was stronger than using aluminum tape. Fuzzy Limey Trigger Modification. (http://fuzzylimey.net/projects/452triggermods.html)
• I shoot aguila super extra 40gr high velocity simply because it's good and cheapish. If I could find the generic cheap American Eagle ammo I'd shoot that. Originally I shot the AE ammo and it surprisingly shot very well.
http://surplusammo.com/images/22%20lr%20HiVel%20SP%20Aguila.JPG
http://www.grouseriver.com/v/vspfiles/photos/HUN-000232-2T.jpg

I love mine. Light and cheerful gun, shoots very well offhand. Spent the day yesterday shooting at a 4" steel plate at 100yards and was hitting it 80% of the time offhand.

rojocorsa
04-14-2011, 3:20 PM
Thanks. It does feel nice offhand.


I went by the hardware store today. Since I'm cheap and I'd rather spend money on bullets, I only picked out one tiny little wrench--a 1.5mm hex. It worked. For anyone that cares, I guess the size of the hex screw is officially 1.5mm. I got lucky.


Never seen that Aguila stuff, but it sure looks better than that Super X and CCI Blazer blazer I have. I do favor the Blazer over the Super X. I felt like it shot better through my rifle. I think I'm just going to hold on to that RWS R-50 stuff for whenever I get a scope.


My first serious upgrade will be some real sling swivels, so that I can use my USGI sling.

milotrain
04-14-2011, 7:59 PM
Next time I order anything from midway I'm going to get a brick of the Federal AE ammo. $23 for 500, and while they are not match grade they shoot quite well in the CZ (YMMV).

also GHOST RING :D You'll kick yourself for not getting it earlier whenever you end up getting it.

rojocorsa
04-15-2011, 8:21 AM
I just ordered my pair of sling swivels. I hope they ship without incident.

OK, I'll bite. Please tell me more about those ghost ring sights.

Thanks.

stockranger
04-15-2011, 8:43 AM
Your typical uncle mikes QD swivels or similar are not going to fit unless you drill out the holes a little bit. It is no big deal. Just remove factory swivel. Carefully put gun in a vice and slowly enlarge the hole in the stud with consecutively larger drill bits. This was the first thing I did when I got mine. A set of swivels from walmart is th emost cost effective thing to get.

The ghost ring sight will be shipped to your door for like 20 bucks. I suggest the largest size as smaller sizes could cause eye strain. It installs with a small screw driver in place of the factory blade. THe advantage is your eye will naturaly center the post inside the ghost ring. If you don't like it then someone should buy it for 15 bucks shippes no problem.

While you are already paying shipping you might aswell get an increased power striker spring from them too. It'll really make your groups more consistent and also very cheap easy upgrade.

I still recomend some winchester subsonic HP. THey have it at basspro in rancho or on their website. It is 30 dollars for 500 rounds. I think you will find it much more accurate then what you have been shooting, especialy past 50 yards. Not to mention it is about as loud as a pellet gun out of the lux which is really nice.

milotrain
04-15-2011, 9:24 AM
I suggest the largest size as smaller sizes could cause eye strain. It installs with a small screw driver in place of the factory blade. THe advantage is your eye will naturaly center the post inside the ghost ring. If you don't like it then someone should buy it for 15 bucks shippes no problem.

rojocorsa, I'll buy it from you if you don't like it. I have the largest and want to try opening it up a little more. I was concerned, having never shot a ghost ring before, weather I would be comfortable shooting with it. In a day of shooting I was better with it than my old blade. I tend to use a 6 o'clock hold with a ghost ring for some reason.

While you are already paying shipping you might aswell get an increased power striker spring from them too. It'll really make your groups more consistent and also very cheap easy upgrade.

I bought my ghost ring from eric brooks a long time ago, thanks for the link to J&N. Didn't know people were still making parts for them :D

I still recomend some winchester subsonic HP. Not to mention it is about as loud as a pellet gun out of the lux which is really nice.
++ on subsonic. I've had better accuracy with subsonic but I can't find it cheap near me.

stockranger
04-15-2011, 9:29 AM
rojocorsa, I'll buy it from you if you don't like it. I have the largest and want to try opening it up a little more. I was concerned, having never shot a ghost ring before, weather I would be comfortable shooting with it. In a day of shooting I was better with it than my old blade. I tend to use a 6 o'clock hold with a ghost ring for some reason.

.

I was also interested in an even larger ghost ring. I still have a ton of accuracy and I think a little bigger would allow faster target aquisition hunting in low light. I have been thinkin of asking JNP if they could make me a larger one. I have read before about them making a guy a custom size.

milotrain
04-15-2011, 9:56 AM
Well maybe I'll make a few then :D

rojocorsa
04-15-2011, 10:25 AM
The swivels I ordered are KNS precision brand, 1.25" so I can put my USGI sling on.

rojocorsa
04-20-2011, 11:36 PM
Been thinking about the ghost rings...I wonder if Techsights would be a better option?


Oh, I successfully put on some sling swivels and my USGI on the gun. I did have to "fit" the OEM studs, as advertised above.

Izzy43
04-21-2011, 7:34 AM
Next time I order anything from midway I'm going to get a brick of the Federal AE ammo. $23 for 500, and while they are not match grade they shoot quite well in the CZ (YMMV).

also GHOST RING :D You'll kick yourself for not getting it earlier whenever you end up getting it.

Federal 51B (Walmart for $1.47/50) is the same ammo as AE 40 gr HV. Verified by Federal via phone call. Also watch the Dunn's Sporting Goods website. They occasionally have the AE 40 gr HV for $159/5000 with free shipping. Got two cases earlier this year.

stockranger
04-21-2011, 9:34 AM
I have also considered the tech site. The main thing is it costs about 4 times as much money as a ghost ring. They will take away from the sleek easy carry with it mounted on the reciever. You will also have to estimate the distance and hold over.

I think the tech sites would be great if the gun was chambered in 17hmr or 22mag because its flat shooting so you could just hold dead on to 100 yards or more.

I think for the londer shots the ghost ring will still be better because you wont' have to mess with holding over. Holding over sucks with irons as the barrel blocks out the entire target.

rojocorsa
04-21-2011, 11:45 AM
Huh.

The reason I am wondering about those is because they would mimic the lovely USGI profile sights. Mind you, I wouldn't go and buy them right away, but it's something to consider. If my CZ could have Garand sights, that would be pretty awesome.

stockranger
04-21-2011, 12:33 PM
A garand shoots flat making the sites alot more useful.

Why not try both ? You could try them both for about 100 bucks or less no big deal.

I also think the tech site could make hunting easier as you can see more of the area around the target while looking thru it. Sometimes its hard to tell if i'm holding on the fur of a rabbit of on the dirt which is the same color.