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Warrior King
04-05-2011, 10:14 PM
Y'all know what an enabler is?

An enabler helps another person engage in harmful behavior.

Example would be the spouse married to an alcoholic or drug addict who continues to make excuses for their drunken/high behavior and give them money and support to buy drinks or drugs.

In this case if people break the law and dump or leave waste, the enabler goes out and cleans up the waste so the offenders have a tiddly site to do it again.

All respect to those who have community spirit, and are putting the common wheel first, cleaning up toxic waste from shooting and illegal targets on BLM land etc... but the pigs are winning and it might be time to use the stick rather than the carrot...

Instead of being enablers is it not time to start turning in the low life pigs, that ruin the free shooting ranges and environment for others?

The DFG and state really wants to know who the polluters are and need your help....

from DFG site:

Pollution

As the population of California swells, the effects of pollution are felt more profoundly than ever.

Incidents of industrial and agricultural pollution as well as the dumping of household waste can be devastating to our fish and wildlife and the habitat on which they depend.

To combat polluting, concerned citizens who become aware of such acts can become involved and report their observations.



To Report a Poacher or Polluter

If you witness a poaching or polluting incident or any fish and wildlife violation, or have information about such a violation, immediately dial the toll free CalTIP number

1 888 DFG-CALTIP (888 334-2258), 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Be prepared to give the fullest possible account of the incident including the name, address, age and description of the suspect, vehicle description, direction of travel, license number, type of violation and when and where it occurred. You do not have to give your name.

Information from the call is relayed to the Fish and Game region where the offense occurred and an investigation is undertaken locally. If the information supplied by the caller results in an arrest the caller becomes eligible for a reward. (Rewards up to $1,000 have been paid.) The case is then reviewed by a volunteer citizen's group known as the "Caltip Citizens Review Board".

CalTIP rewards come entirely from donations, no state funds are used. The CalTIP Citizen's Review Board, not the Department of Fish and Game receives and administers these funds. Money not used for the payment of rewards goes toward furthering CalTIP's educational goals (public service announcements, informational videos, billboard campaigns,

How to Help

Observe and Call
When you see or become aware of a poaching or polluting violation, call us!

Make a Donation
If you would like to support the CalTIP Rewards Program, please send donations payable to CalTIP Inc:

CalTIP Inc
PMB #125
417 Mace Blvd, Suite J
Davis, CA 95618

GSwain
04-06-2011, 9:03 AM
The DFG will have absolutely no interest in prosecuting the people who leave crap where they shoot, their goal is to restrict access to EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY people who go shooting legally and do or do not clean up their crap. The ONLY thing this would accomplish is draw more DFG attention to dirty sites before calguns gets the opportunity to clean it up, and the DFG would use this information to strengthen their case for closing the land to shooting use. This would culminate in the legal shooters that are responsible denizens of the land no longer shooting there, while the idiots that left the crap in the first place continue to go and make a mess, which the government will use to further its agenda of restricting gun rights, because it can now an easier arguement of "people that own guns break laws, shoot where they arent supposed to, and litter."

So while yes we are technically enabling the continued idiot use of land, It is for the continued usage and benefit of all the other responsible people that we do so. Its not an ideal situation, but neither is Kalifornia.

I was a boyscout growing up, and always believe in leaving an area cleaner than when I left it. Instead, if you witness someone leaving crap, why don't you attempt to educate them on cleanup, without putting yourself in any immediate danger and following common sense.

Warrior King
04-06-2011, 6:05 PM
GSwain thanks for your input on this.

I know from my own experience with bureaucrats and law enforcement that things can work out as you describe it. The key is that you believe the state will not act against brazen dumpers who leave toxic waste such as shot up computers and monitors, large appliances etc. and trash. If the state has that agenda do you really think that periodic cleanups would really prevent the state from documenting the abuse and making any case they want to make? My feeling is why not do both...why not clean the sites but also attempt to punish the pigs who create all the problems?

I was also a scout,and just dropped off some old computer monitors full of heavy metals and lead at a toxic waste center in my area on Sunday.

I was hoping if the pigs knew they were being monitored, and faced prosecution that they would stop the illegal dumping. Such a course would take genuine cooperation between concerned citizens and the state.

I'm rather skeptical about the education approach. I'm not sure I would want to confront someone I didn't know who was armed and dangerous and in the middle of doing something illegal.

GSwain
04-07-2011, 10:24 AM
It has been my experience that a government agency with an axe to grind will turn most anything around on you that they can if it suits their ends, reguardless of how good the intentions behind it are. I totally like where you are going with the idea of it, I am just concerned about potential unintended fallout that could result from it.

If we could get actual cooperation between responsible land users and the government involving catcing the D-bags that are doing all the littering, I think it'd be fantastic and id be right there next to ya helping.

Maybe the best way to go about this is to try to feel out the appropriate people in terms of where they stand on trying to help us or scroo us?

I don't think that the irresponsible users would really be deterred by threat of enforcement though, the odds are grossly in their favor, and they are probably too ignorant to "get it" anyways.

As to the education approach, I have to admit I suggest that somewhat tounge in cheek, as I dont know that I would be terribly inclined to approach some knucklehead dressed in baggy clothes out shooting with his homeboys.

Warrior King
04-08-2011, 9:09 AM
It has been my experience that a government agency with an axe to grind will turn most anything around on you that they can if it suits their ends, reguardless of how good the intentions behind it are. I totally like where you are going with the idea of it, I am just concerned about potential unintended fallout that could result from it.

If we could get actual cooperation between responsible land users and the government involving catcing the D-bags that are doing all the littering, I think it'd be fantastic and id be right there next to ya helping.

Maybe the best way to go about this is to try to feel out the appropriate people in terms of where they stand on trying to help us or scroo us?

I don't think that the irresponsible users would really be deterred by threat of enforcement though, the odds are grossly in their favor, and they are probably too ignorant to "get it" anyways.

As to the education approach, I have to admit I suggest that somewhat tounge in cheek, as I dont know that I would be terribly inclined to approach some knucklehead dressed in baggy clothes out shooting with his homeboys.

I thought about this discussion some more and maybe the real goal should not be catching them but having them believe that they could be caught. Kind of like what the police do when they park an empty police car at the start of main street in small towns. People see the police car and slow down. No ticket, no arrests but mission accomplished.

On another level there is power in community action. Deterrent values comes with exposure and community sanctions. For example, some groups publish the license plates of individuals seen cruising areas with high rates of prostitution, or video tape them when prostitutes get into their cars.

In our case the people who are playing by the rules, in most cases will have their lives together in other ways, the type who will ignore the laws will tend to be the scofflaw types who could have unpaid speeding tickets that turn into warrants, pending cases of spousal abuse, DUI's, or other petty types of arrest warrants, felons, illegal immigration etc. and the last thing they want is more heat or attention...

Furthermore, with the power of new media and the internet, activists have greater power to expose wrong doing. For example, Calguns or each range clean up group could have its own media action kit that includes a YouTube channel that exposes gross polluters, and shows their cars etc. Media such as YouTube could also be used to put pressure on the state and the police to do the right thing in this case and by drawing attention to the scofflaws get them to prosecute. The key is to use activist tactics to draw attention to this and put pressure on both the perpetrators and the bureaucrats who have their own agenda.

Right now there is a fake video on YouTube called "major Ak47 accident" which is really a kid with a toy gun and it has gotten hundreds of thousands of views. Imagine the kind of heat you could put on these people if they knew they might end up on youtube and be seen by their boss or parole officer dumping and polluting public lands.

Effective activist tactics would be to have a couple of volunteers go to the site on a Fri, Sat, or Sun and post fliers on parked cars letting those at the site know that the site is being monitored remotely for illegal activity, and dumping and that their license plates have been entered into a database. They should also be made aware that any illegal, or unsafe activity will be reported to law enforcement. People have a way of changing their behavior if they think they will be exposed.

A variation of this could be to have a few activists at the entrance route visible and video taping the trucks as they enter the area and passing out fliers letting people know that concerned citizens and fellow gunners are monitoring the site for the public good.

GSwain
04-08-2011, 2:59 PM
"post fliers on parked cars letting those at the site know that the site is being monitored remotely for illegal activity, and dumping and that their license plates have been entered into a database"

I like the idea of that, but it makes me laugh when I think of how some of the people on this board might react to it, haha. :TFH:

Which Way Out
04-08-2011, 3:18 PM
I just shot today at the Santa Barbara " Glass Factory". Cal Gunners did a clean up a few weeks ago. The place looks pretty good still to my amazement. Funny thing is we picked up so much trash that some didn't fit in the Roll off dumpster. So a pile was started near the parking lot. From the looks of things the pile has gotten bigger, as if someone was doing some range clean up and stock piling it for the next time.
Met some others shooter up there as well and turned them on to CGs.
Also as a side note it started to snow around noon

Warrior King
04-08-2011, 5:01 PM
"post fliers on parked cars letting those at the site know that the site is being monitored remotely for illegal activity, and dumping and that their license plates have been entered into a database"

I like the idea of that, but it makes me laugh when I think of how some of the people on this board might react to it, haha. :TFH:

Thanks for your input. Yeah people freak out over databases but a license plate is displayed in public, and there could be disclaimer that it would only be used to track those engaged in illegal activity.

More carrot and stick kind of thing. Visitors would also be told an action group has adopted the site and does periodic cleanups to preserve access to public land for shooting.

Spyder
04-08-2011, 7:18 PM
Do you folks really think that there aren't any shooters in DFG, or other agencies, for that matter? I've met a few of them and many are very pro 2A. Hell, I ran into the DFG guy up at Pine Flat in Sonoma County a few months ago and he asked me if I knew who the BLM guy in charge was, to contact to organize some sort of cleanup so that it could go back to being a decent shooting area. Not everyone is "out to get you." Some of them want a place to shoot too.

GSwain
04-09-2011, 7:47 AM
Do you folks really think that there aren't any shooters in DFG, or other agencies, for that matter? I've met a few of them and many are very pro 2A. Hell, I ran into the DFG guy up at Pine Flat in Sonoma County a few months ago and he asked me if I knew who the BLM guy in charge was, to contact to organize some sort of cleanup so that it could go back to being a decent shooting area. Not everyone is "out to get you." Some of them want a place to shoot too.

Im sure that is completely true, however if you go cruise up into the 2A forum and take a look at the more recent encounters with BLM people and problems people have been having with them, I believe you would see the concern is totally justifiable. I believe Oaklander is working on educating the various parties in question, or at least tracking them down however.

Spyder
04-09-2011, 9:51 AM
Oaklander is working on getting FEDERAL employees to be knowledgeable in STATE laws which they shouldn't be illegally enforcing in the first place. DFG isn't a federal agency.

For DFG to shut down all shooting lands would be ridiculous. Without shooters, there will be far less hunters. Without hunters, there would be no DFG.

Etihtsarom
04-10-2011, 1:44 PM
It might be a good idea to post a small cardboard sign at your shooting spots reminding other shooters to clean up after themselves. It appeals to the fluffy good side of a shooter who is about to leave a mess, or at least the thought would cross their minds before they litter anyways. Design a 8.5x11'' banner printable @ home, and just post 1 or 2 @ each site. Least efforts, most results. Deter and punish...ehhh, take too much resources.

Heres a few banner on this page http://www.respectedaccess.org/open-access/

Barabas
05-09-2011, 10:45 AM
For DFG to shut down all shooting lands would be ridiculous. Without shooters, there will be far less hunters. Without hunters, there would be no DFG.

Someone needs to send them another memo, because they don't seem to be able to do the math on their own. Have you bought a hunting or fishing license recently?

Spyder
05-11-2011, 8:41 PM
Sure have. In California and 2 other states. Ours are entirely in line with what's available in other states.

bohoki
05-11-2011, 9:14 PM
garbage attracts more garbage if you clean the area people tend to dump in areas already dumped

chad68
05-12-2011, 2:33 AM
I have a solution to fix it all.

Have designated shootings spots at the city/county dump sites.

chad68
05-12-2011, 2:36 AM
It might be a good idea to post a small cardboard sign at your shooting spots reminding other shooters to clean up after themselves. It appeals to the fluffy good side of a shooter who is about to leave a mess, or at least the thought would cross their minds before they litter anyways. Design a 8.5x11'' banner printable @ home, and just post 1 or 2 @ each site. Least efforts, most results. Deter and punish...ehhh, take too much resources.

Heres a few banner on this page http://www.respectedaccess.org/open-access/

They would just use the signs as targets.

SGGear
05-12-2011, 2:56 PM
^^^

Some idiots may not care and shoot the signs as targets.. but if it can reach even one out of 10 shooters who frequently trash there.. its would be worthwhile.

geeknow
05-12-2011, 3:02 PM
I would be extremely wary of advocating any 'activism' that caused you to think that videotaping me, my property, or my belongings while on public land was a smart idea...just saying.

Spyder
05-15-2011, 6:59 PM
That sounds like a veiled threat against someone who would be doing something perfectly legal, on public land. Not a smart idea.

bohoki
05-15-2011, 7:13 PM
thoughtless people shot up the trees killing them at the range i go to
they provided a windbreak and shade

i like the idea of shooting ranges at dumps i could put up with the smell if they could put up with the noise

markm
06-01-2011, 10:40 AM
The DFG will have absolutely no interest in prosecuting the people who leave crap where they shoot, their goal is to restrict access to EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY people who go shooting legally and do or do not clean up their crap. The ONLY thing this would accomplish is draw more DFG attention to dirty sites before calguns gets the opportunity to clean it up, and the DFG would use this information to strengthen their case for closing the land to shooting use. This would culminate in the legal shooters that are responsible denizens of the land no longer shooting there, while the idiots that left the crap in the first place continue to go and make a mess, which the government will use to further its agenda of restricting gun rights, because it can now an easier arguement of "people that own guns break laws, shoot where they arent supposed to, and litter."

So while yes we are technically enabling the continued idiot use of land, It is for the continued usage and benefit of all the other responsible people that we do so. Its not an ideal situation, but neither is Kalifornia.

I was a boyscout growing up, and always believe in leaving an area cleaner than when I left it. Instead, if you witness someone leaving crap, why don't you attempt to educate them on cleanup, without putting yourself in any immediate danger and following common sense.

GSwaing,

I agree with you. CDFG bans guns on wildlife refuges unless you have a hunting license with a tag or stamps for the wildlife that is in season. DFG is not pro 2A unless revenue can be generated by selling licenses and tags. I can understand DFG prohibiting the discharge of weapons on their refuges during non-hunting seasons, but banning the possession of firearms is a violation of an enumerated right.

BLM is no better than CDFG.

The best practice is to clean-up the sites, keep them clean and educate violators in a polite and non-confrontational manner. I have done this on FS land before.

The people who were violating the law and common sense, were a little embarassed, but grateful that I informed them of the laws involved, and that I gave them directions to places where plinking was legal.

People tend to pollute sites that are allready polluted. They will keep sites cleaner if the sites are clean.

markm

Which Way Out
06-01-2011, 8:14 PM
I have a solution to fix it all.

Have designated shootings spots at the city/county dump sites.

That would be so cool. Just think of all the Rats we could get and I bet the Seagulls wouldn't bother the dumps anymore..