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View Full Version : SAF Sues NYC, Bloomberg Over Gun Fees


wildhawker
04-05-2011, 3:02 PM
http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=351

Soldier415
04-05-2011, 3:03 PM
GET EM !

:D

Liberty1
04-05-2011, 3:10 PM
Sweet!

Ding126
04-05-2011, 3:16 PM
That's good news.

AndrewMendez
04-05-2011, 3:16 PM
Great, I will get this on the cgn fb page when I get to a computer, unless someone beats me to it.

Sutcliffe
04-05-2011, 3:19 PM
I'm officially 'outing' myself as having a huge man crush on Alan Gura.
A regular civil libertarian dreamboat he is.

Southwest Chuck
04-05-2011, 3:22 PM
Excellent! Can't wait to hear their rational for charging $340.00 when the rest of the residents in the state only have to pay $10.00 !

wildhawker
04-05-2011, 3:25 PM
All, let's please remember that freedom isn't free. Support our friends at SAF and their huge efforts to advance our rights by making a tax-deductible donation at the link: http://saf.org/default.asp?p=safdonation

stix213
04-05-2011, 3:27 PM
$340 permit for a handgun??? What were they thinking?

voiceofreason
04-05-2011, 3:31 PM
$340 permit for a handgun??? What were they thinking?

Only people with a decent amount of money should be permitted to own/carry firearms.

If you're not responsible enough to handle money, you're not responsible enough to own a gun.

If you don't have money, you may use the said gun to acquire money.

stix213
04-05-2011, 3:31 PM
I hope the city is forced to refund all but $10 of every fee ever taken.

TRICKSTER
04-05-2011, 3:38 PM
Why is it that some of these same people object to persons having to show ID when voting because they claim it discriminates against poor people who can't afford the $10-$15 to get state issued ID, yet they think this is reasonable and non discriminatory

Crom
04-05-2011, 3:41 PM
Awesome!! Way to go SAF!! I think New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is really Sauron (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Eyeofsauron.jpg) in disguise!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HyKXZv5NViY/TMcyGHPMPwI/AAAAAAAA1PM/noD5ammVC8c/Mordor%5B1%5D.jpg

BlindRacer
04-05-2011, 3:49 PM
Rollin', rollin'

dfletcher
04-05-2011, 3:55 PM
Why is it that some of these same people object to persons having to show ID when voting because they claim it discriminates against poor people who can't afford the $10-$15 to get state issued ID, yet they think this is reasonable and non discriminatory

I'm guessing it's because those are the folks tend to vote for them.

They're sneaky, not stupid. ;)

Shotgun Man
04-05-2011, 3:56 PM
“New York is one of only two states that require a permit just to keep a handgun in one’s own home,” Gottlieb said. “Citizens in the other 48 states would consider that an outrage. The city’s ‘residence premises’ handgun license amounts to a charge of more than $100 annually to keep a handgun in one’s home, which is ridiculous. Mayor Bloomberg is essentially taxing the fundamental right to defend one’s self in his or her own home. We cannot think of anything more egregious than perpetuating a fee structure that puts a financial obstacle in the way of citizens who want to protect their homes and families.

How do they come up with this figure? How long is the permit good for? Three years and then you have pay another $340 to renew?

safewaysecurity
04-05-2011, 4:04 PM
YAHHHH BUDDY!

OleCuss
04-05-2011, 4:16 PM
To me, this story brings home the idea that SAF and associated organizations are now setting the tempo and topics of RKBA jurisprudence.

The anti-liberty types are being hit repeatedly and from many angles. We may not be winning too much so far but it is starting to look like the death of oppression from a thousand cuts. The ogre of oppression may still be huge and formidable, when it has lost enough of its judicial life's blood it will begin to collapse into something which has to struggle just for its existence.

Shiboleth
04-05-2011, 4:53 PM
Good to see some of the pain being thrown Bloomberg's way. Finally here's a case that defense cannot simply punt and avoid the issue by using the two step eval and saying said law/practice doesn't burden the core right.

AndrewMendez
04-05-2011, 5:07 PM
Alright, I added it to the CGN FACEBOOK PAGE (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Calgunsnet/230301820181)
MAKE SURE TO "LIKE" IT

While I am on the subject, lets add Gene Hoffman's like page (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Gene-Hoffman/160810788858) to the mix.





Only people with a decent amount of money should be permitted to own/carry firearms.

If you're not responsible enough to handle money, you're not responsible enough to own a gun.

If you don't have money, you may use the said gun to acquire money.

When talking to a Brady member a few weeks back, she said, if she had it her way, nobody could buy a gun for cheaper then 500 dollars, as most of the people who commit crimes, are from low income areas.....Disgusting on so many levels...

ETA: What do you think all the "safety measures" are for? It only increases the production cost of a firearm....and who pays for that?? The consumer buying the gun.

AJAX22
04-05-2011, 5:09 PM
Awesome....

I am going to bring Soooooo many guns out here if this passes

mosinnagantm9130
04-05-2011, 5:10 PM
Get em, SAF!!!

Davidoff
04-05-2011, 5:11 PM
From the NYPD website: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/gun_licensing_faq.shtml#HowMuchDoesHandgunLicCost

How much does it cost to apply for a handgun license?

The application fee for a handgun license is $340.00. The fee for fingerprints is $94.25. These fees may be paid by credit card or with money orders when you submit your application. Money orders should be made payable to the “New York City Police Department.”

So it's not just the $340 for the application, toss on another $94.25 for fingerprinting and the notary fee (because the application must be signed and notarized before turning it in). Even if you already have a rifle/shotgun permit (which only costs $140:eek: plus fingerprint fee), you would still need to be printed again if you want to get a handgun.

I still can't find what the renewal fee is, maybe it's even more expensive to renew.:confused:

chaseface
04-05-2011, 5:13 PM
I'm just gunna come out and say it... That is ABSOLUTELY institutionalized racism. As well as economic oppression. Only the rich deserve rights right?

Window_Seat
04-05-2011, 5:14 PM
:gura:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7167/steamroller.jpg

It should really say SAF, CFG, NRA & CRPA Foundation... Is that possible?

ETA: It just occurred to me that the above quote is a Bwiese quote. Nevermind! :chris:

Erik.

wildhawker
04-05-2011, 5:22 PM
It really should.

-Brandon


It should really say SAF, CFG, NRA & CRPA Foundation... Is that possible?

ETA: It just occurred to me that the above quote is a Bwiese quote. Nevermind! :chris:

Erik.

77bawls
04-05-2011, 5:24 PM
“The New York State Rifle & Pistol Association was founded 141 years ago in New York City and we are proud to participate in an action to help restore the Second Amendment rights of all New York City residents,” said NYSRPA President Tom King.

What the hell have they been doing for the last 141 years? Just bending over and taking it dry?

Shotgun Man
04-05-2011, 5:25 PM
From the NYPD website: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/gun_licensing_faq.shtml#HowMuchDoesHandgunLicCost



So it's not just the $340 for the application, toss on another $94.25 for fingerprinting and the notary fee (because the application must be signed and notarized before turning it in). Even if you already have a rifle/shotgun permit (which only costs $140:eek: plus fingerprint fee), you would still need to be printed again if you want to get a handgun.

I still can't find what the renewal fee is, maybe it's even more expensive to renew.:confused:

From that website:

What are some of the reasons that may cause my application to be disapproved?

Your application may be disapproved for any of the following reasons:

A history of arrest or conviction, depending upon the severity of the charges and the amount of time that has elapsed since your last arrest or conviction.
Your failure to disclose your full criminal history, including sealed arrests, on your application;
A history of domestic violence incidents;
A history of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs (DUI, DWI, DWAI);
Your failure to cooperate with the investigation of your application;
A poor DMV history, including moving violations, failure to appear and answer summonses or failure to pay fines.

This list is not exclusive. If your investigation results in a determination that you lack character and fitness for a license or permit, your application will be denied.

These additional requirements beyond state law sound as constitutionally suspect as the fees.

wildhawker
04-05-2011, 5:26 PM
What the hell have they been doing for the last 141 years? Just bending over and taking it dry?

CRPA has been around since ~1875. We've all been taking it dry because *there was no acknowledged right to keep and bear arms* under the federal constitution. Please view this news in light of history.

-Brandon

ivanimal
04-05-2011, 5:32 PM
Long overdue!

77bawls
04-05-2011, 5:33 PM
CRPA has been around since ~1875. We've all been taking it dry because *there was no acknowledged right to keep and bear arms* under the federal constitution. Please view this news in light of history.

-Brandon

So why did it take so long for Heller, and McDonald?

bsim
04-05-2011, 5:43 PM
#winning

Librarian
04-05-2011, 6:10 PM
So why did it take so long for Heller, and McDonald?

Finding the right plaintiffs in the right jurisdictions with a 'clean' case.

Paladin
04-05-2011, 6:20 PM
Finding the right plaintiffs in the right jurisdictions with a 'clean' case.

Plus at a time when there's the "right" justices in the majority on the Court. Until Roberts and Alieto joined Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy, we may not have won if the case had been brought since, oh, early in the 1930s (before FDR). Trying w/O'Connor wouldn't have been worth the risk of losing and %^&*ing the entire nation for 50 or more years. JMO

All in all, this lawsuit is good news!

Newbies: NY, like CA, is one of the 6 states w/o a RKBA in their state constitutions. Those states have had no protection from anti laws until McDonald incorporated Heller.

http://www.nraila.org/maps/skba.jpg

misterjake
04-05-2011, 6:25 PM
This reminds me of the poll tax by the South to keep poor African Americans from voting.

Connor P Price
04-05-2011, 6:42 PM
Every day its something new lately. Gotta love this sort of movement.

ubet
04-05-2011, 7:03 PM
Great news, hopefully that can bend bloomberg over on this!

gatdammit
04-05-2011, 7:16 PM
340 bucks is a lotta ammo!

hoffmang
04-05-2011, 7:20 PM
Don't think Alan Gura is lead on this one though I wouldn't be surprised if he's helping.

Either way, go SAF!

-Gene

Noxx
04-05-2011, 7:23 PM
What the hell have they been doing for the last 141 years? Just bending over and taking it dry?

Fighting a losing battle, mostly. Things are swinging back now however, and damn it feels good.

wildhawker
04-05-2011, 7:46 PM
David Jensen is lead on this.

Al Norris
04-05-2011, 7:47 PM
The attorney is David D. Jensen, PLLC, New York and New Jersey. This is the attorney handling the Muller v. Maenza (http://www.djensenpllc.com/cases.html) (NJ) case. He has seperated from his former law offices (Duane Morris LLP) and has a (limited) website here (http://www.djensenpllc.com/bio.html).

The complaint is here (http://www.nysrpa.org/files/NYSRPA-SAF-NYC-Lawsuit.pdf).

Knuckle Dragger
04-05-2011, 7:54 PM
Plus at a time when there's the "right" justices in the majority on the Court. Until Roberts and Alieto joined Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy, we may not have won if the case had been brought since, oh, early in the 1930s (before FDR). Trying w/O'Connor wouldn't have been worth the risk of losing and %^&*ing the entire nation for 50 or more years. JMO

All in all, this lawsuit is good news!

Newbies: NY, like CA, is one of the 6 states w/o a RKBA in their state constitutions. Those states have had no protection from anti laws until McDonald incorporated Heller.

http://www.nraila.org/maps/skba.jpg

Massachusetts should not be listed as a RKBA state. The state's Supreme Judicial Court (SJC) has held that neither the state nor the federal constitutions confer an individual right to possess firearms (Comm. v. Davis circa 1979). This continues to be the operative precedent in MA (for now....)

hoffmang
04-05-2011, 8:25 PM
Massachusetts should not be listed as a RKBA state. The state's Supreme Judicial Court (SJC) has held that neither the state nor the federal constitutions confer an individual right to possess firearms (Comm. v. Davis circa 1979). This continues to be the operative precedent in MA (for now....)

The chart is correct and Massachusetts SJC is wrong as you point out. Makes the chart hard to make "accurate."

-Gene

N6ATF
04-05-2011, 8:44 PM
I hope the city is forced to refund all but $10 of every fee ever taken.

YES. Don't see this in the prayers for relief though.

Only people with a decent amount of money should be permitted to own/carry firearms.

If you're not responsible enough to handle money, you're not responsible enough to own a gun.

If you don't have money, you may use the said gun to acquire money.

http://files.sharenator.com/i_see_what_you_did_there_poster_p22806076040424242 2t5wm_400_Socks_with_sandals-s400x400-133580-535.jpg

$340 permit for a handgun??? What were they thinking?

"F those poor law-abiders in the A."

Tier One Arms
04-05-2011, 8:45 PM
So lower fees for us, if SAF wins?!?!?

Shotgun Man
04-05-2011, 9:49 PM
Finding the right plaintiffs in the right jurisdictions with a 'clean' case.

A Heller-type 2A decision could have been hashed out earlier. Perhaps though, then, the court would be wrongly constructed. Yet surely throughout history, there must have been a time when a favorable decision would have come our way.

Heller is more the result of bold, vanguard thinking than finally discovering an ever-elusive plaintiff.

Librarian
04-05-2011, 9:58 PM
A Heller-type 2A decision could have been hashed out earlier. Perhaps though, then, the court would be wrongly constructed. Yet surely throughout history, there must have been a time when a favorable decision would have come our way.

Heller is more the result of bold, vanguard thinking than finally discovering an ever-elusive plaintiff.

Perhaps. But it was extremely important to get the first case into the DC Circuit, to side step the entire 'does not apply to the states' argument. DC, being a Federal Enclave, is not a state (though it is treated as one in some contexts).

I think it was less a case of 'discovering' than it was 'cultivating'. See this 2007 WaPo story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031701055.html) on Bob Levy.

hoffmang
04-05-2011, 10:28 PM
New York Times on the suit (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/nyregion/06gun.html).

-Gene

glbtrottr
04-05-2011, 11:06 PM
Plus at a time when there's the "right" justices in the majority on the Court. Until Roberts and Alieto joined Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy, we may not have won if the case had been brought since, oh, early in the 1930s (before FDR). Trying w/O'Connor wouldn't have been worth the risk of losing and %^&*ing the entire nation for 50 or more years. JMO

All in all, this lawsuit is good news!

Newbies: NY, like CA, is one of the 6 states w/o a RKBA in their state constitutions. Those states have had no protection from anti laws until McDonald incorporated Heller.

http://www.nraila.org/maps/skba.jpg

I'm a little confused.

Are we saying that ILLINOIS and WISCONSIN have constitutional rights to keep and bear arms? Or did we mistake Wisconsin for Minnesota and Illnois for Iowa?

SGT Loco
04-05-2011, 11:08 PM
Only people with a decent amount of money should be permitted to own/carry firearms.

If you're not responsible enough to handle money, you're not responsible enough to own a gun.

If you don't have money, you may use the said gun to acquire money.

I agree- The Right For Only Wealthy People To Keep And Bear... oh, wait, that's not right....

Your post is filled with enough ignorance that I don't even know where to start.

EDIT: Wow, You almost had me. I know well enough how to spot a troll ;)

hoffmang
04-05-2011, 11:09 PM
I'm a little confused.

Are we saying that ILLINOIS and WISCONSIN have constitutional rights to keep and bear arms? Or did we mistake Wisconsin for Minnesota and Illnois for Iowa?

Believe it or not, yes. Illinois suffers a similar problem as Massachusetts. Wisconsin has actually generally respected their RKBA with the exception of gun free school zones - which are currently being challenged.

-Gene

chaseface
04-05-2011, 11:52 PM
New York Times on the suit (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/nyregion/06gun.html).

-Gene

Its nice to read an article about guns these days that doesnt throw around a bunch of emotive biased language and lets people make decisions for themselves without the burden of reading between all the crap.

stix213
04-06-2011, 1:23 AM
New York Times on the suit (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/nyregion/06gun.html).

-Gene

“Not one penny of it goes to processing the application,” Mr. Gottlieb said. “It all goes to the police pension fund.”

ZING!

press1280
04-06-2011, 4:04 AM
Believe it or not, yes. Illinois suffers a similar problem as Massachusetts. Wisconsin has actually generally respected their RKBA with the exception of gun free school zones - which are currently being challenged.

-Gene

IL's RKBA amendment contains the phrase,"Subject to the police power," which pretty much negates it alltogether.

yakmon
04-06-2011, 4:09 AM
isn't all this water under the bridge, in light of McDonald?

SanPedroShooter
04-06-2011, 4:55 AM
Perhaps. But it was extremely important to get the first case into the DC Circuit, to side step the entire 'does not apply to the states' argument. DC, being a Federal Enclave, is not a state (though it is treated as one in some contexts).

I think it was less a case of 'discovering' than it was 'cultivating'. See this 2007 WaPo story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031701055.html) on Bob Levy.

That is a very interesting article, I had no idea. I've never even heard of Bob Levy, you dont hear about people like that very often. Its almost like he plans to go down the Constitution amendment by amendment suing violators, wether he has interest in the case or not. He doesn't seem to have lost any love for "gun lobbyist's"...

Patrick-2
04-06-2011, 5:03 AM
I'm officially 'outing' myself as having a huge man crush on Alan Gura.
A regular civil libertarian dreamboat he is.

The suit was filed by David Jensen. For now he may be Robin to Gura's batman, but he looks like another good one for our side. He is also leading the NJ case, FWIW.

jl123
04-06-2011, 5:19 AM
That is a very interesting article, I had no idea. I've never even heard of Bob Levy, you dont hear about people like that very often. Its almost like he plans to go down the Constitution amendment by amendment suing violators, wether he has interest in the case or not. He doesn't seem to have lost any love for "gun lobbyist's"...

Cato Institute.....that's all you really need to know.

Abominog
04-06-2011, 5:21 AM
Though NYC is rediculous, don't think the rest of New York State is reasonable.

Monroe County has a dandy web page that tells you about applying, and notes that if you pick up the application it's free, but completely fails to mention that there are other associated fees:
http://www.monroecounty.gov/clerk-pistolpermits.php

Ontario County NY charges $3 for the application, $10 when you get approved, and "other fees" which include finger printing by, you guessed it, the government.

The most onerous problem- clearly implemented to dissuade potential applications- is the process. Let's take Monroe County NY:

Drive to Rochester ($3 gas) and park in garage across from permit office.
Hike through snow and slush to County Office building, permit office.
Wait in line...wait, wait...
Get application ("Free"!)
Pay to get out of parking garage ($5)
Drive back to work ($3 gas)
Fill out application- must have 3 aquaintences in Monroe County.
Drive back to Rochester ($3)
Park, go to sheriff's office.
Wait in line with "undesireables" for your fingerprints.
Get fingerprints ($$)
Pay to get out of parking ($5)
Drive back to work ($3)
Mail in application ($10+ usually more + postage)
..wait...wait..wait...
Receiver pistol permit, including spelling and typo errors.
Find a handgun you like. Pay for it, get receipt.
Drive to Rochester ($3 gas)
Park. Walk to County buildning.
Stand in line...wait...wait..
Put pistol on permit ($3)
Pay to get out of parking ($5)
Back to work ($3)

Get the idea? When I got my permit more than 15 years ago it cost me a total of $171, three trips into the city of Rochester, and about eight hours away from work.

But wait, there's more! Note that every time one purchases a new handgun, one must drive downtown and have them register it on your permit- so figure roughly $14 and 3 hours of time.

So there are always roadblocks they can throw up, monetary and otherwise.

Patrick-2
04-06-2011, 5:36 AM
Its nice to read an article about guns these days that doesnt throw around a bunch of emotive biased language and lets people make decisions for themselves without the burden of reading between all the crap.

What amazes me is that the NY Times published an article about a gun lawsuit that did not include the standard choice quotes from Helmke or any other Brady Bunch member.

The assumed schism between Brady and MAIG should be evident in the next few months, if it really exists. Brady has been sloppy in their amicus briefs lately - doing things like confusing Maryland's permit system with another state's process - that I wouldn't be surprised to see Bloomy tell them to go pound sand.

yellowfin
04-06-2011, 5:40 AM
Though NYC is rediculous, don't think the rest of New York State is reasonable.

Monroe County has a dandy web page that tells you about applying, and notes that if you pick up the application it's free, but completely fails to mention that there are other associated fees:
http://www.monroecounty.gov/clerk-pistolpermits.php

Ontario County NY charges $3 for the application, $10 when you get approved, and "other fees" which include finger printing by, you guessed it, the government.

The most onerous problem- clearly implemented to dissuade potential applications- is the process. Let's take Monroe County NY:

Drive to Rochester ($3 gas) and park in garage across from permit office.
Hike through snow and slush to County Office building, permit office.
Wait in line...wait, wait...
Get application ("Free"!)
Pay to get out of parking garage ($5)
Drive back to work ($3 gas)
Fill out application- must have 3 aquaintences in Monroe County.
Drive back to Rochester ($3)
Park, go to sheriff's office.
Wait in line with "undesireables" for your fingerprints.
Get fingerprints ($$)
Pay to get out of parking ($5)
Drive back to work ($3)
Mail in application ($10+ usually more + postage)
..wait...wait..wait...
Receiver pistol permit, including spelling and typo errors.
Find a handgun you like. Pay for it, get receipt.
Drive to Rochester ($3 gas)
Park. Walk to County buildning.
Stand in line...wait...wait..
Put pistol on permit ($3)
Pay to get out of parking ($5)
Back to work ($3)

Get the idea? When I got my permit more than 15 years ago it cost me a total of $171, three trips into the city of Rochester, and about eight hours away from work.

But wait, there's more! Note that every time one purchases a new handgun, one must drive downtown and have them register it on your permit- so figure roughly $14 and 3 hours of time.

So there are always roadblocks they can throw up, monetary and otherwise.

Add in 4 references who must notarize a reference report sheet, so waiting on that plus reimbursing them for the notary fee. That alone has taken months for me, plus figuring out who is comfortable with doing that and you feel comfortable asking.

Paladin
04-06-2011, 7:27 AM
Believe it or not, yes. Illinois suffers a similar problem as Massachusetts. Wisconsin has actually generally respected their RKBA with the exception of gun free school zones - which are currently being challenged.

-GeneHawaii also has, in theory and in their state constitution, a RKBA. But it too is dead letter. But since they're in the 9th Circuit, along w/us, they too will be helped out greatly with Nordyke.

This just goes to show you that getting a law passed, or even getting something put into a constitution does NOT mean you can go about the rest of your life and ignore politics, politicians, and political appointees. That is the lesson of history.

The application of the lesson: The offensive to regain our RKBA is well under way in this state, and once we've "won", we need to realize that we then have to go on the defensive and continue the fight -- we can never lay down in the shade of the tree by the river and think our RKBA is completely safe.

For newbies: that state con RKBA map (and many others re other gun issues), is from:
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=204

Window_Seat
04-06-2011, 8:23 AM
Interesting, very much so, and it's refreshing to see this lawsuit being filed against NYC.

In the (likely) event that HR-822 — National Reciprocity (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.822:) (providing it becomes a rider attached to a must sign bill) being discussed here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=400089), passes and ultimately becomes law, would this lawsuit become mootable? I would think not because of how the permit system & fees would still be in place, and enforced, but I would also hope that HR-822 (which I discussed in last night's NRA Members' Council (http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/cgi-bin/haasmcshowwebpage.cgi?mc=alameda) Meeting of Alameda County) would make this case even stronger in the sense that the permit & fee system could be completely struck.

Erik.

SanPedroShooter
04-06-2011, 8:41 AM
Cato Institute.....that's all you really need to know.

I saw that, but it looks like the Cato institute gave him a spot because of all the money he was prepared to send their way (I am denigrating the man or his motives, I just dont know any other way to put it.) He goes out of his way to say that Cato supports his lawsuit, but they are not involved in it.

"He had been contributing money to the Cato Institute for years, and in 1997, Cato hired him as a fellow, giving him a pulpit from which to espouse his views on limited government and the sanctity of personal freedoms."

"Although gun-rights advocates and other organizations have offered to aid the case financially, Levy said, "I've taken nothing. Zero." The reason: "I don't want this portrayed as litigation that the gun community is sponsoring. . . . I don't want to be beholden to anyone. I want to call the shots, with my co-counsel."

and
The Second Amendment is just one of his areas of interest, and not the biggest one, Levy said. The right of the people to keep and bear arms isn't a right he ever needed to exercise.

"...a staunch defender of the Second Amendment, a wealthy former entrepreneur who said he has never owned a firearm and probably never will."


Maybe I dont often see expensive cases bankrolled on principle alone, without the any personal interest beyond dedication to the Constitution. The guy doesn't even own a gun. Very interesting man, I am glad he is on our side. Sorry for the derailment.

stag1500
04-06-2011, 9:56 AM
It's interesting that this case is being fought on the grounds of the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause. If this goes our way, I wonder if that would be good legal precedent for us to use in overturning the ban on NFA items here in CA. After all, most of the other states allow them.

Patrick-2
04-06-2011, 10:17 AM
Interesting, very much so, and it's refreshing to see this lawsuit being filed against NYC.

In the (likely) event that HR-822 — National Reciprocity (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.822:) (providing it becomes a rider attached to a must sign bill) being discussed here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=400089), passes and ultimately becomes law, would this lawsuit become mootable? I would think not because of how the permit system & fees would still be in place, and enforced, but I would also hope that HR-822 (which I discussed in last night's NRA Members' Council (http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/cgi-bin/haasmcshowwebpage.cgi?mc=alameda) Meeting of Alameda County) would make this case even stronger in the sense that the permit & fee system could be completely struck.

Erik.

What do you think might be mooted by national reciprocity?

Assume that the terms of reciprocity stay pretty much as-described by HR 822 when it comes to resident versus non-resident permits. That means you still need a permit from your own state. If anything, the fees become more of a concern - especially if you are one of the few who also have a carry permit (who in real terms could care less about the price). The NYC permits being challenged here are specifically those required to even own a gun in your own home. They are not carry permits, at all.

If I missed your question in my response, I am sorry. You'll need to type slower for me. ;)

voiceofreason
04-06-2011, 11:16 AM
I agree- The Right For Only Wealthy People To Keep And Bear... oh, wait, that's not right....

Your post is filled with enough ignorance that I don't even know where to start.

EDIT: Wow, You almost had me. I know well enough how to spot a troll ;)

Please adjust your troll-o-meter. I apologize for my lack of clarity in demonstrating sarcasm in my post. That is the way some of my more well-heeled acquaintances feel about firearms ownership.

If I was on a lower rung or two from where I am now on the socio-economic ladder or my skin was darker, they would not talk like that in front of me.

Although most of them do not own guns, many of them still support the right to own and even possibly carry guns. You just have to be the "right" kind of person. Upper middle class or higher financially, upstanding, clean record, not a dark-skinned "ethnic", a known member of the local community, a person that can be "trusted".

To those that would tell me to put them in their place: I respect where I am and the social circle I am in at the time, and do not disrespect their right to express their opinions even though I strongly disagree.

I personally believe that the lowest income citizens have the greatest need for firearms. The history of our country has demonstrated the need for minorities to be able to protect themselves.

Call me a troll if you wish. Frankly, I think I'm much better looking than even the best looking troll. And no, I do not currently reside under a bridge of any kind.

voiceofreason
04-06-2011, 11:19 AM
I assume you meant to say you figured it out.

nicki
04-06-2011, 1:02 PM
It would be interesting to see the racial demographics of New York City are.

Of course it is important to factor downtown Manhattan and Staten Island seperately.

Perhaps a way to do that is by breaking the city up into both voter and police precients.

Next see what the racial demographics are in neighboring counties and then the rest of the state.

New York City requires licensing of rifles/shotguns. New York State doesn't.
Wonder if the licensing has to do with anything Malcolm X may have said:43:

Nicki

nicki
04-06-2011, 1:33 PM
This is a very narrow tailored low hanging fruit complaint, getting the fees down or better yet, eliminated is a first step.

Alan Gura was right when he said that the Heller and MacDonald cases were the Lawyers full employment act.

I guess it will be our version of a death by 20,000 plus cuts. Slow, but very painful for the other side.

Nicki

evil tyler durden
04-06-2011, 3:03 PM
With this Bloomberg should be removed from office and placed in prison. I hate politicians for this reason, make up crap they want and screw the backbone of the country.

Dreaded Claymore
04-06-2011, 4:08 PM
When tyrants tremble, sick with fear
And hear their death knell ringing
When friends rejoice, both far and near
How can I keep from singing?

BONG! BONG! BONG! BONG! BONG!

Hear that, Bloomberg?! :43:

yellowfin
04-06-2011, 7:15 PM
BONG! BONG! BONG! BONG! BONG!

Hear that, Bloomberg?! :43:I'm sure he's smoking one.

newtothis
04-06-2011, 8:09 PM
So what's next? !FA allows you to say almost anything but there is a 5 cent per word fee.