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View Full Version : Orange County regional parks "no firearms"


Hogstir
04-04-2011, 12:17 PM
It seems every regional park and wilderness area in Orange County has a rule prohibiting possession of firearms. This includes wilderness areas in which several people have been mauled or killed by mountain lions. This is County property can they legally do this?

IGOTDIRT4U
04-04-2011, 12:34 PM
Yep. County ordinances. Might change once we get past a few pending appeals cases.

stix213
04-04-2011, 12:38 PM
I'd think what they can and can't do will be more clear after the Nordyke decision.

Crom
04-04-2011, 1:10 PM
San Diego County is the same way, but it's a blanket ban in all county parks.

http://www.amlegal.com/alp_templates/images/ui-bookmark.gifSEC. 41.117. WEAPONS AND FIREWORKS (http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/sandregs/title4publicproperty*/division1parksandrecreation*/chapter1countyparksandrecreation?f=templates$fn=de fault.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sandiegoco_ca_mc$anc=JD_ 41.117).


(a) It shall be unlawful for a person to possess any of the following in a County park: "explosives," as defined in Health and Safety Code section 12000, "fireworks," as defined in Health and Safety Code section 12511, a "firearm" as defined in Penal Code section 12001, an air gun, bow or crossbow designed to shoot arrows, slingshot, paintball gun, blowgun or throwing knife.

ETD1010
04-04-2011, 1:11 PM
what about CCWs? any exemption for that?

Rossi357
04-04-2011, 1:15 PM
My opinion.
Nordyke will come out the same as Peruta.
No lower court judges will rule on scrutiny. Chester came as close as it's gonna get, and it's being ignored. They all will wait till the cases are appealed to SOCTUS.

jnojr
04-04-2011, 1:24 PM
Huh.

Virginia State Forest Regulations Amendment (4 VAC 10 - 30 -170)
Monday, April 4, 2011 10:35 AM
From: "ron.jenkins@dof.virginia.gov"
To: jnojr

The Department of Forestry appreciates your comments and questions regarding the proposed amendment to the Virginia State Forest Regulations. The proposed regulatory amendment would lift the prohibition on lawfully carrying open and concealed firearms in Virginia State Forests. Throughout every phase of this regulatory process, the overwhelming majority of commenters supported the amendment to lift the prohibition against the lawful carrying of open and concealed firearms. The administration also supports the action. On April 4, 2011, the Department of Forestry officially submitted its Final Regulation for Executive review. The Final Regulation eliminates the prohibition of lawfully carried open and concealed firearms in State Forests.

:D

sfpcservice
04-04-2011, 1:56 PM
In reality, what is the consequence for violating this ordinance? Isn't it an infraction and a relatively small fine? Can ordinances be misdemeanors of felonies?

It seems to me that no state law is being broken, just a local nanny law. I might just take my chances: Able to kill Zodiac before he kills me with the minute possibility of getting a ticket from a park cop.

paul0660
04-04-2011, 1:59 PM
In reality, what is the consequence for violating this ordinance? Isn't it an infraction and a relatively small fine? Can ordinances be misdemeanors of felonies?

It seems to me that no state law is being broken, just a local nanny law. I might just take my chances: Able to kill Zodiac before he kills me with the minute possibility of getting a ticket from a park cop.

There is the possibility that you could lose the right to own firearms. I am not sure.

Crom
04-04-2011, 2:26 PM
what about CCWs? any exemption for that?

Yes. CCW can go almost anywhere including parks. I don't think the county can bar CCW, because of state preemption. I could be wrong on that though...

In reality, what is the consequence for violating this ordinance? Isn't it an infraction and a relatively small fine? Can ordinances be misdemeanors of felonies?

It seems to me that no state law is being broken, just a local nanny law. I might just take my chances: Able to kill Zodiac before he kills me with the minute possibility of getting a ticket from a park cop.

Infractions and Misdemeanors by ordinances. Only the state can enact felonies. :D

hoffmang
04-04-2011, 3:06 PM
Yes. CCW can go almost anywhere including parks. I don't think the county can bar CCW, because of state preemption. I could be wrong on that though...


Legally they can't due to preemption in the Government Code, but I've found a couple that do. If you come across one that does ban firearms without an exemption for PC 12050 License holders, CGF wants to know about it.

-Gene

SteveH
04-04-2011, 4:02 PM
In reality, what is the consequence for violating this ordinance? Isn't it an infraction and a relatively small fine? Can ordinances be misdemeanors of felonies?



Most OCCO's are misdemeanors. Though many are later resolved as infractions. OCCO's are bookable offenses so you could spend the night in jail or be cited and released at the scene. Depending on things like are you impaired, proof of identity, local address, is the offense likely to continue, ect.

hgreen
04-04-2011, 9:40 PM
Legally they can't due to preemption in the Government Code, but I've found a couple that do. If you come across one that does ban firearms without an exemption for PC 12050 License holders, CGF wants to know about it.

-Gene

Hermosa Beach:


Within the limits of any public park or playground, no person shall:
...
2. Carry or discharge any firearms, firecrackers, rockets, torpedoes or any other fireworks, or air gun or slingshot;

http://www.hermosabch.org/departments/cityclerk/code/1228030.html

Redondo Beach:


4-35.20 Weapons and explosives in parks.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to use, carry, fire or discharge any firearm, air gun, paint gun, BB gun, slingshot, archery device of any kind, or any other form of weapon across, in or into a park. This subsection shall not apply to law enforcement officers.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, ignite or discharge any fireworks or explosives of any kind across, in or into any park. This subsection shall not apply to law enforcement officers. ( 1, Ord. 3051 c.s., eff. June 18, 2010)

http://qcode.us/codes/redondobeach/view.php?topic=4-35-4_35_20&frames=on

We even have Redondo Beach officers stating on VIDEO that they would not allow LUCC in the parks (including the PIER) which is zoned COMMERCIAL by the city. But does anyone care?

Neither offer exemptions for PC 12050.


Rolling Hills Estates

12.24.030
No person shall have in his possession in any public park any firearm, air gun, slingshot, bow and arrow or B-B gun, nor shall any person discharge or shoot any firearm, air gun, slingshot, bow and arrow or B-B gun within any public park within the city.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/16587/level2/TIT12STSIPUPL_CH12.24PAUSRE.html#TIT12STSIPUPL_CH1 2.24PAUSRE_12.24.030FI#TIT12STSIPUPL_CH12.24PAUSRE _12.24.030FI

Palos Verdes Estates

12.24.150 Disorderly conduct.

No person shall in any park, square, avenue, grounds or recreation center:

A. Do any obscene act;

B. Throw stones or other missiles;

C. Fire or carry firearms;

http://www.codepublishing.com/ca/palosverdesestates/html/PalosVerdes12/PalosVerdes1224.html#12.24.150



The Manhattan Beach Hometown Fair, held on public property and open to the public (free of charge) also has bans on firearms with no exemption for PC12050 or LEO:
http://www.mbfair.org/Attending_the_Fair.html

Please:

-No dogs

-No weapons

-No bikes

-No skateboards

-No scooters

-No roller skates or blades


Of course this last year they did not enforce it since we told them they would be sued if they tried.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/37156_152487561458244_122802434426757_245770_51934 15_n.jpg

But I could keep going on this list of cities in CA with bans on all firearms/weapons without any exemptions except MAYBE for sworn officers.

hoffmang
04-04-2011, 10:19 PM
Hermosa Beach:

Redondo Beach:

...
But I could keep going on this list of cities in CA with bans on all firearms/weapons without any exemptions except MAYBE for sworn officers.

Thanks for these. We're going to attack one where we know we have maximum leverage and then spread from there. These will be on the list.

-Gene

IGOTDIRT4U
04-05-2011, 8:02 AM
Thanks for these. We're going to attack one where we know we have maximum leverage and then spread from there. These will be on the list.

-Gene

Gene, I have seen similar signs at almost all public areas in populated areas, like the entire Huntington Beach beach area (state and city areas alike). I think what these signs do is discourage weapons by making them prohibited, but since their IS a pre-emption in 12050, it's a given it's legal for those with permits.

What I haven't seen is a more specific signage that states NO weapons INCLUDING permit holders.

OC Kimber
04-05-2011, 10:48 AM
City of Huntington beach
Municipal code 13.48.120 section D

13.48.120 Games and activities.
It is unlawful for any person to take part in or abet the playing of any activity which endangers the health, safety or welfare of the participant or any person whomsoever in any park, except on fields and courts or areas specifically provided for such games or activities or areas designated for such games and activities by the City Council or Director. Such games and activities shall include, but shall not be limited to, the following:

(d) Carrying, transporting, possessing, discharging, firing or shooting over, onto or through any park any firearm, air gun, bb gun, spring gun, slingshot, bow and arrow, crossbow, spear, fireworks, firecracker, rocket, explosive of any kind or any other form of weapon potentially dangerous to human beings or wildlife. This subsection shall not apply to law enforcement officers.

smallshot13
04-05-2011, 3:03 PM
Legally they can't due to preemption in the Government Code, but I've found a couple that do. If you come across one that does ban firearms without an exemption for PC 12050 License holders, CGF wants to know about it.

-Gene

You asked: Sacramento County Code: [I expect that you could be overwhelmed by the number of incidents of these types of restrictions] http://qcode.us/codes/sacramentocounty/

Title 9 PUBLIC PEACE, MORALS AND SAFETY
Chapter 9.36 PARK REGULATIONS

9.36.060 Firearms, Air Guns, and Other Weapons.
No person other than peace officers in the discharge of their duties shall use, maintain, possess, fire, or discharge any firearm, air gun, spring gun, bow and arrow, slingshot, or any other weapon potentially dangerous to wildlife or human safety, except in areas, at times, and under conditions designated by the director for such use. A violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor. (SCC 576 15, 1983.)

Chapter 9.42 DANGEROUS WEAPONS AND DANGEROUS ARTICLES ON COUNTY PROPERTY
9.42.010 Prohibition.
The carrying, transportation, use or possession of dangerous weapons or dangerous articles is prohibited in or upon any building or grounds. (SCC 264 1 (part), 1976.)
9.42.040 Exemptions.
a. The prohibitions of this chapter shall not apply to any judge, sheriff, deputy sheriff, policeman, marshal, deputy marshal, member of the California Highway Patrol, member of the California State Police, agent of the Department of Justice, agent of the Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement, guard or parole officer of the State Department of Corrections or California Youth Authority, or probation officer or deputy probation officer who is acting in the course of employment and who is lawfully authorized to possess such weapons.
b. The prohibitions of this chapter do not apply to any County employee or agent of the County who is required to possess dangerous articles in order to perform County business, work or service on County premises. (SCC 264 1 (part), 1976.)

hgreen
04-05-2011, 3:07 PM
Chapter 9.42 DANGEROUS WEAPONS AND DANGEROUS ARTICLES ON COUNTY PROPERTY
9.42.010 Prohibition.
The carrying, transportation, use or possession of dangerous weapons or dangerous articles is prohibited in or upon any building or grounds. (SCC 264 1 (part), 1976.)


Wow any county "grounds"?
I'm no lawyer but there's no way this could stand any trial....

Librarian
04-05-2011, 3:17 PM
Oh boy! Bug hunt!

Here are some link collections for county and municipal codes - have at'em!

http://municipalcodes.lexisnexis.com/#CA
http://www.qcode.us/codes.htm
http://www.amlegal.com/library/ca/index.shtml

Larger cities and counties tend to have theirs associated with their local web sites - so see http://events.cacities.org/cgi-shl/TWServer.exe?Run:CITYWEB_1 for cities and http://www.csac.counties.org/default.asp?id=7 for counties.

Folks keep telling us 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' ...

CSDGuy
04-05-2011, 4:03 PM
Cal Expo, being on and controlling some State Property (an entity, similar to an independent special district, unto itself), also has a no weapons/firearms regulation. You find their regulations in the CCR. The Food & Ag code is where they get their authority to enact such regulations.

Crom
04-05-2011, 4:51 PM
San Diego County has no less than three separate municipal codes which ban firearms. None of them have an exception for licensed CCW holders. There is a fourth ordinance which prohibits possession but has the exemption.

All relevant info has been submitted to CGF for review.

IGOTDIRT4U
04-06-2011, 7:35 AM
Looks like we have a pattern here.

And I stand corrected on HB's policy. Is does state one exception, which is on it's face then an illegal ordinance.

Looks like a new set of projects to come soon.

sfpcservice
04-06-2011, 11:48 AM
Legally they can't due to preemption in the Government Code, but I've found a couple that do. If you come across one that does ban firearms without an exemption for PC 12050 License holders, CGF wants to know about it.

-Gene

I think the City of Fairfield has such a ban at Rockville Regional Park.

sfpcservice
04-06-2011, 11:54 AM
Virtually every county fair in a populated area has a no weapons policy and at least the Dixon may fair has wands/metal detectors. I think this would be a great project for some of the eager Calgunner Volunteers looking for work. As each of these fairs approach, they can be contacted and requested to change their policies and we can have an update here so 12050 calgunners can bring written proof of the resolution to the fair to exercise that resolution.

Or, is this all waiting on Nordyke?

tenpercentfirearms
04-10-2011, 10:07 PM
I do believe the City of Bakersfield has one too.

DisgruntledReaper
04-11-2011, 9:32 AM
Here is something that gets me-
There is a local Regional park- Peters Canyon- that is used by hikers,bikers,horse riders, runners,etc and in the park there is a sign posted about no fishing,no guns,no weapons,etc but also states that 'you are in a wilderness area where there are poisonous snakes and insects,mountain lion activity, poisonous plants,etc and YOUR SAFETY CANNOT BE GUARANTEED,YOU are responsible for your own safety.'

sooooooo..........but you are not 'allowed' to protect yourself or your family in the event of an incident aside from using harsh language...

I have seen recent mountain lion tracks,tons of coyote tracks,rattlers,etc and so I exercise a certain amount of self discretion in the park.......I do get a kick out of seeing the wildlife around the park....actually have had a tarantula come out of the grass and walk next to me for a bit and have seen a road runner and snake fight it out, seen a snake -rattler- come out at dusk and slither along the trail like 20 feet away..stayed back and just watched it go hunt..neat stuff..

Absolutely ridiculous........these postings in most of these areas