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mike_the_wino
04-03-2011, 6:45 AM
So I call my brother this weekend and, of course, talk turns to guns. A few months ago he was all hot and bothered about AR pistols. So he went out and bought one. You know how it is. I am not sure what got into him but he called DOJ to check if these are legal. The guy he spoke to asked him if this one firearm was worth losing all of his guns. Naturally my brother is freaking out.

I never got the whole AR/ AK thing, but whatever. Now its my bro who is up against it and I really need info ASAP. Was the DOJ guy full of FUD? What part of the law is specifically needed to cite? Are AR/ AK pistols in that 'grey' area?

aklover_91
04-03-2011, 7:12 AM
FUD. If it has a bullet button and he doesn't use hi cap mags, it's gtg if the receiver isn't banned by name.

mike_the_wino
04-03-2011, 7:24 AM
He asked the DOJ dingus if it was gtg w/ a prince(?) BB and he was again asked 'is this gun worth losing all of your guns over?' after he specifically asked about running a Prince BB and toploading.

to the googles Looks like Prince is not high on the list of favs according to this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150568). Do did my bro just ask about the wrong BB and/or did he run into a fud-a-rific DOJ guy?

hawk1
04-03-2011, 7:29 AM
Sorry to say your brother is a 'dingus' as well...

In all due respect, tell him to sell it and go back to being a lemming.

mike_the_wino
04-03-2011, 7:33 AM
Sorry to say your brother is a 'dingus' as well...
I can't argue this point. He is.

In all due respect, tell him to sell it and go back to being a lemming.
While I appreciate the hate, you really aren't adding anything useful. I have specifically asked for legal arguments for, or against, AR/ AK pistols.

aklover_91
04-03-2011, 7:33 AM
He asked the DOJ dingus if it was gtg w/ a prince(?) BB and he was again asked 'is this gun worth losing all of your guns over?' after he specifically asked about running a Prince BB and toploading.

to the googles Looks like Prince is not high on the list of favs according to this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150568). Do did my bro just ask about the wrong BB and/or did he run into a fud-a-rific DOJ guy?
The DOJ will not issue a definitive statement on what is or is not legal, though they may heavily imply something is illegal without directly saying so whether it is or not. It's a sad state of things, but that's how it is. Prince is OK, but if the set screw came loose it'd be a problem. A bullet button would be safer, legally, and more convenient.

Sorry to say your brother is a 'dingus' as well...

In all due respect, tell him to sell it and go back to being a lemming.

Well that's a good attitude :rolleyes:

mike_the_wino
04-03-2011, 7:55 AM
Further clarification, DOJ specifically:

'Any magazine which doesn't go into the grip is considered an assault pistol, which is a felony in Kalifornia'

How does one counter that FUD?

robnbritt
04-03-2011, 7:59 AM
Further clarification, DOJ specifically:

'Any magazine which doesn't go into the grip is considered an assault pistol, which is a felony in Kalifornia'

How does one counter that FUD?


Don't you mean "detachable" magazine? Thats why you use a BB

12voltguy
04-03-2011, 8:43 AM
He asked the DOJ dingus if it was gtg w/ a prince(?) BB and he was again asked 'is this gun worth losing all of your guns over?' after he specifically asked about running a Prince BB and toploading.

to the googles Looks like Prince is not high on the list of favs according to this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=150568). Do did my bro just ask about the wrong BB and/or did he run into a fud-a-rific DOJ guy?

have him call back & ask same question of std ar15 rifle with BB & 10rd mag, bet they tell him same thing:rolleyes: LOL

12voltguy
04-03-2011, 8:45 AM
see the pistol flow chart
I carry that + my DROS papers, not that by law i NEED TOO
I am also going to get 1 of mt ar pistols put on my CCW
the others have no S/N as I built them from 80%s myself;)

killmime1234
04-03-2011, 9:00 AM
Mike, you handled Hawk's post like a champ. I'm glad there's still some class among internet users.

In answer to your question: I just want to further confirm what everyone else is saying. It's totally legal as long as it's configured correctly.

Jake71
04-03-2011, 9:07 AM
AR Pistol = SBR (that skirts around the law using "pistol" legalities and loopholes)

Thats the way I see it anyway.

killmime1234
04-03-2011, 9:14 AM
AR Pistol = SBR (that skirts around the law using "pistol" legalities and loopholes)

Thats the way I see it anyway.
SBR = Short Barreled Rifle
It's not a rifle if it has a barrel shorter than 16",no stock, and is DROS'd as a pistol.

G1500
04-03-2011, 9:15 AM
SBR = Short Barreled Rifle
It's not a rifle if it has a barrel shorter than 16" and no stock and is DROS'd as a pistol.

He is just jealous that he doesn't have one.

killmime1234
04-03-2011, 9:19 AM
He is just jealous that he doesn't have one.

Heck, I'm jealous I don't have one! :(

...yet.

G1500
04-03-2011, 9:26 AM
Heck, I'm jealous I don't have one! :(

...yet.

Same here.

But I do have some 80% lowers on the way :D

12voltguy
04-03-2011, 9:30 AM
AR Pistol = SBR (that skirts around the law using "pistol" legalities and loopholes)

Thats the way I see it anyway.

there is no such thing as a loophole
there is the law & we follow it, makes anti gun people made so they call it a "loophole"
same as there is no gunshow "loophole":rolleyes:

12voltguy
04-03-2011, 9:31 AM
Another fact, the only reason for the SBR law of 1934 was they wanted to outlaw pistols & thought people will just cut down rifles to pistol size.........the outlaw handgun part didn't stick, but they left in the SBR SBS parts

franklinarmory
04-05-2011, 9:09 AM
If they were illegal, DOJ would not have put our AR pistols on the EXEMPTED list. Take a look at 12125 PC. Then take a look at 12133(b) and 12276.1 to see that the products can be configured legally. They are sold as single shot firearms in order to comply, but buyers can change out the magazine plug after the transfer. ....kind of like if you were to put a 10 round mag into your Kimber 1911. You wouldn't have to go get it re-drop tested just because you changed something after you bought it.

bwiese
04-05-2011, 9:39 AM
Thanks for the good post (and good work) by the Franklin boys.

Yet another DOJ clerk/agent is speaking out his rear end. Is his name Dana McKinnon?

An AR or AK pistol with a maglock (BulletButton, etc.) and a 10rd magazine is indeed legal. They are sold by CA FFLs all over CA, and also have survived 2 years of inspection as inventoried items at CA gunshops.

If he has an drama over a legally-configured gun, The Calguns Foundation will back him.

I will note that it would be best that he disassembles gun (breaks into halves) and then replaces the old Prince50 screw-down device with the new, latching BulletButton device.

Some DAs see Prince 50s as problematic because we've had too many asshats unloosen them and transition into illegal AW status. Also, if the gun jams or needs repair, the whole gun needs to be taken apart to avoid legal issues. Use of a maglock and 10rd magazine, by contrast, allows the mag to be removed [without being legally considered a prohibited 'detachable magazine'.]

stix213
04-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Your brother should for his own good learn all the applicable laws if he wants to own something as evil as an AR pistol in CA. Its too easy to accidentally configure one illegally, and too many people when seeing them will incorrectly assume them to be illegal, to not take it upon yourself to fully understand the laws regarding them before getting one.

At minimum hand your brother a copy of the pistol AW flowchart.

Rekrab
04-05-2011, 11:54 AM
Your brother really, really needs to get educated on the laws if he wants one. While we've all had AR-style rifles for years now, the rifle-caliber pistols are still a bit fresher on the seen and far from main stream.

I just recently had to explain to someone why their Draco pistol was illegally configured because he just went out and bought it without doing his due diligence. I would hate for someone to ever get nailed for a felony AW charge because they weren't completely educated.

wash
04-05-2011, 12:22 PM
I really wish gun shops sales people would sit down with people who buy single shot pistols, OLLs and bullet buttons to go over the flow chart and discuss the legalities of owning one in CA.

Education is good to make sure people stay clear of NFA laws and the "assault weapon" ban.

One of these days I'll finish up my AR pistol...

gun toting monkeyboy
04-05-2011, 3:01 PM
AR Pistol = SBR (that skirts around the law using "pistol" legalities and loopholes)

Thats the way I see it anyway.

So by that logic, does aspirin = cocaine? I mean, they are both drugs, right? What about dog = cat? They both have 4 legs and tails. How about you refrain from spreading FUD, and leave that kind of nonsense to the DOJ, and the knuckle-draggers that normally stand behind the counter at gun stores? There is no "loophole". In the eyes of the law, something either "Is" or "Is not". Coming on here and spouting off your "feelings" with no legal basis doen't really help anybody. Especially not in a thread where somebody is seeking legal clarification. :mad:

-Mb

jamesonamac
04-05-2011, 9:44 PM
AR Pistol = SBR (that skirts around the law using "pistol" legalities and loopholes)

Thats the way I see it anyway.

Now we know who answered the phone.

tenpercentfirearms
04-06-2011, 7:37 AM
I keep having to look at these thread dates to make sure I am not necroposting. It amazes me that people will answer that AR pistols are illegal in 2011.

An AR pistol that has a fixed magazine device is not an assault weapon as long as it does not have a capacity over 10 rounds.

PC 12276.1

In order to DROS a pistol that isn't on the roster, it must be in a single shot configuration. AR pistols with a Bullet Button and a single shot magazine meet this requirement and can be DROSed as roster exempt.

As long as the pistol does not have a buttstock, it is just a pistol and not an SBR.

Let's all do our part to stop spreading FUD.

-hanko
04-06-2011, 7:53 AM
AR Pistol = SBR (that skirts around the law using "pistol" legalities and loopholes)

Thats the way I see it anyway.
I'd suggest you get your eyes checked.;)

-hanko

Purple K
04-06-2011, 8:51 AM
How do we differentiate between handguard and barrel shroud?

G1500
04-06-2011, 9:08 AM
How do we differentiate between handguard and barrel shroud?

One is a shoulder thing that goes up.

tonelar
04-06-2011, 9:21 AM
Further clarification, DOJ specifically:

'Any magazine which doesn't go into the grip is considered an assault pistol, which is a felony in Kalifornia'

How does one counter that FUD?

really poor sentence structure;
how is a magazine a pistol?

have them explain to you how broomhandle mausers are AWs if this is the case. you're forgetting that a BB AR pistol is a fixed magazine weapon for all intents and purposes.

leelaw
04-06-2011, 9:27 AM
How do we differentiate between handguard and barrel shroud?

A handguard isn't a shoulder thing that goes up.

gun toting monkeyboy
04-06-2011, 12:47 PM
A handguard isn't a shoulder thing that goes up.

He was making a referrence to a comment by one of our wonderfully informed politicians. He doesn't actually mean that. Carolyn McCarthy from NY described it that way.

As for the handguard vs. barrel shroud, I thought that was mooted once you no longer had a detachable magazine. Much the same way you can have a threaded barrel on AR pistols with a BB. Anybody know the official position on that?

-Mb

Rekrab
04-06-2011, 3:09 PM
He was making a referrence to a comment by one of our wonderfully informed politicians. He doesn't actually mean that. Carolyn McCarthy from NY described it that way.

As for the handguard vs. barrel shroud, I thought that was mooted once you no longer had a detachable magazine. Much the same way you can have a threaded barrel on AR pistols with a BB. Anybody know the official position on that?

-Mb

It is, it's defined here: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Restrictions_on_semiautomatic_handguns

gunfan74
04-06-2011, 3:25 PM
see the pistol flow chart
I carry that + my DROS papers, not that by law i NEED TOO
I am also going to get 1 of mt ar pistols put on my CCW
the others have no S/N as I built them from 80%s myself;)

so AR pistols ARE legal as CCW? recently obtained my ccw permit in Butte Co. I was wondering if these AR pistols were legal to add to my permit....

CHS
04-06-2011, 3:33 PM
You'll get one of two answers from the DOJ when you ask them about legalities:

1.) Lies.
2.) "Read the PC".

So basically, you're on your own.

We do know however that AR pistols are legal (when in the proper configuration) because we do actually read and pay attention to the PC and not what the DOJ tells us or your local gunshop or cop tells you.

G1500
04-06-2011, 5:27 PM
so AR pistols ARE legal as CCW? recently obtained my ccw permit in Butte Co. I was wondering if these AR pistols were legal to add to my permit....

Only during winter, all other warmer months you have no way of concealing it, lol.

greasemonkey
04-06-2011, 7:30 PM
I really wish gun shops sales people would sit down with people who buy single shot pistols, OLLs and bullet buttons to go over the flow chart and discuss the legalities of owning one in CA.

Education is good to make sure people stay clear of NFA laws and the "assault weapon" ban.

One of these days I'll finish up my AR pistol...

There are quite a few of us (but by far not enough) that go around to our local FFL's to supply them with AW Flow Charts, SacPD Memos and to see if there's anything they're unsure about or would like further clarification on. If people are going to continue to look to FFL's for education, it seems that assisting FFL's with solid information is one of a few effective ways to keep people out of pound-me-in-the-***-prison.

ke6guj
04-06-2011, 9:35 PM
How do we differentiate between handguard and barrel shroud?

on a mag-locked AR-pistol, we don't need to. We can have all the handguards, barrel shouds, threaded barrels, AFGs, and VFGs we want and not have a CA-defined AW. Now, ATF does say that you have to have an AOW tax stamp before you can put the VFG on the pistol, but with or without the tax stamp, it isn't an CA crime to ahve a VFG on a mag-locked pistol.

G1500
04-06-2011, 9:44 PM
There are quite a few of us (but by far not enough) that go around to our local FFL's to supply them with AW Flow Charts, SacPD Memos and to see if there's anything they're unsure about or would like further clarification on. If people are going to continue to look to FFL's for education, it seems that assisting FFL's with solid information is one of a few effective ways to keep people out of pound-me-in-the-***-prison.

We need some of that going on down here in So Cal area.

:cool:

luckystrike
04-07-2011, 1:36 AM
:bofud: look, theres a smilie made just for this ****

greasemonkey
04-07-2011, 7:03 AM
Go to the "Calguns in Your Community", find your local chapter and contact your C3 Leader.

We need some of that going on down here in So Cal area.

:cool:

tenpercentfirearms
04-07-2011, 8:55 AM
so AR pistols ARE legal as CCW? recently obtained my ccw permit in Butte Co. I was wondering if these AR pistols were legal to add to my permit....

Legal, yes. Allowed, depends. I tried to put mine on my Kern County CCW. They said no. I am going to switch to a Taft PD permit. They already said they don't care.

tonelar
04-07-2011, 1:56 PM
How do we differentiate between handguard and barrel shroud?

One way is to know what the part is called by the mfg.

Example: On an Uzi, the forearm section is NOT called a barrel shroud. Manuals and parts lists refer to the two plastic pieces as L and R handguards.