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View Full Version : 10 round mags that hold 11 rounds


andrewj
04-02-2011, 4:21 PM
I know this has been discussed a few times before but not very extensively. I have my own understanding and opinion on the legalities of the scenario I listed below but I would like to hear some other opinions... especially from those with some clout and credibility (Gene, Bill, etc.)

Here's the scenario:

Joe Blow buys a 10 round magazine from a local gun store. For the sake of clarity, we'll say it is a 10 round Beretta 92 magazine. After taking the magazine home and loading it, Joe finds that he is able to squeeze 11 rounds into the magazine. Joe did not modify the magazine, nor did he cause the magazine to hold more than 10 rounds. He simply pushed an 11th round into the magazine. According to PC 12020(c)(25), this magazine is considered a high capacity magazine since it has the "capacity to accept more than ten rounds". Also, Joe legally acquired this high capacity magazine as PC 12020(a)(2) does not include "purchasing" in the list of no-no's.

So do we all agree that Joe is in possession of a high capacity magazine? If yes, then can we all agree that he legally acquired this high capacity magazine? If yes, lets move on:

Joe wants to rebuild his 11 round high capacity magazine into a magazine with an even higher capacity. Joe buys a 15 round Beretta 92 rebuild kit and rebuilds his 11 round magazine into a 15 round magazine. As listed in the Calguns Wiki - Can I change the capacity of my large-capacity magazine when I rebuild it? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_change_the_capacity_of_my_large-capacity_magazine_when_I_rebuild_it.3F), "it is legal to repair/rebuild your preexisting large capacity magazines of any capacity into larger or smaller capacity magazines". So in the end, Joe has a functioning standard 15 round Beretta 92 magazine and one left over 11 round rebuild kit.

As I already mentioned, this has been discussed briefly before. Some claim (myself included) that Joe has committed no crime and legally obtained a high capacity magazine. Unfortunately, the store that sold Joe the "10 round magazine" really sold a high capacity magazine. As we all [should] know, PC 12020(a)(2) lists "keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale" as a no-no. So it seems the store broke the law. I doubt there is any legal defense for unknowingly selling high caps but that isn't really the purpose of this post.

Can we agree that Joe should be in the clear? Can we agree that, in theory, this could be practiced by us calgunners? I do acknowledge however, that just because you "can" does not mean you "should". The risks are not always worth the reward.

Quiet
04-02-2011, 4:39 PM
My $0.02...

Joe Blow's intent was to acquire a 10 round magazine and what he got was a defective magazine that operates as a large capacity magazine.

If Joe Blow repaired the defective magazine with the proper replacement parts, it would no longer be a large capacity magazine but a 10 round magazine.

Also, since the factory made 10 round Beretta magazine, is physically different than a factory made 15 round Beretta magazine, wouldn't using parts from a 15 round magazine to "repair" the 10 round magazine be manufacturing a large capacity magazine? Since, you are going from a factory 10 rounds (even though defective) to 15 rounds.

IrishPirate
04-02-2011, 4:41 PM
perfectly legal. Nothing illegal about buying hi-caps. This thing has actually happened before and was discussed on this forum. Hi-cap is Hi-cap and you can rebuild an 11rd mag into a 100rd mag if you want....doesn't matter one bit.

skylindrftr
04-02-2011, 5:57 PM
Hmm this topic interests me as well, when I bought my WASR I was given a 10 round magazine and when I was loading it I noticed that after the 10th round was loaded, by pushing down, it would accept another round (but I did not load the 11th round).

The only thing that worries me (other than the legal ramifications) about this 11th round is that when compressed too far, springs change their "K" values, engineers back me up here. This is why you never compress springs all the way, whatever their rating is, will change. I believe the equation was (1/2)*K*(x^2) if I remember dynamics right. (sorry for the off topic!)

SDS-Ruger
04-02-2011, 6:04 PM
no the k value is consider a constant.

PsychGuy274
04-02-2011, 6:06 PM
IANAL

Sounds fine to me.

stix213
04-02-2011, 6:24 PM
I'd recommend just waiting for Gene to pull through for us at this point before doing something this borderline.

jtmkinsd
04-02-2011, 6:34 PM
Meh...you bought a factory 10 round mag (or what you thought was a 10 round mag)...just because you can cram an 11th round in it would not subject you to legal jeopardy. But then again IANAL.

BusBoy
04-02-2011, 6:38 PM
it would accept another round (but I did not load the 11th round).


Sorta like... "But, I didnt inhale..." :rofl2:

jtmkinsd
04-02-2011, 6:44 PM
"Yes officer...it's a 33 round magazine...but I never load more than 10...can I go now?" :D

Haplo
04-02-2011, 6:52 PM
And some magazines designed to hold 10 of one round can hold around 30 of a smaller round, and function well with both. But so long as the magazine was made to hold 10 of the larger round, it is not considered to have a capacity greater than 10. (of course you may not put 30 of the smaller round in it and use it in your firearm)

This is my understanding of the law based on my time spent here.

Cokebottle
04-02-2011, 7:03 PM
My $0.02...

Joe Blow's intent was to acquire a 10 round magazine and what he got was a defective magazine that operates as a large capacity magazine.

If Joe Blow repaired the defective magazine with the proper replacement parts, it would no longer be a large capacity magazine but a 10 round magazine.

Also, since the factory made 10 round Beretta magazine, is physically different than a factory made 15 round Beretta magazine, wouldn't using parts from a 15 round magazine to "repair" the 10 round magazine be manufacturing a large capacity magazine? Since, you are going from a factory 10 rounds (even though defective) to 15 rounds.
Agreed 100%
Hmm this topic interests me as well, when I bought my WASR I was given a 10 round magazine and when I was loading it I noticed that after the 10th round was loaded, by pushing down, it would accept another round (but I did not load the 11th round).
This is a problem.
The magazine itself is not illegal, but using that magazine in your maglock-equipped WASR is. It is a violation of PC12276.1(a)(2).

IF that magazine in fact will accept an 11th round, then do NOT use that magazine in that rifle. Get some 30rd rebuild kits and use pop rivets to block them to accept only 10 rounds (or 9 to be perfectly safe)

xmustanguyx
04-02-2011, 7:03 PM
And some magazines designed to hold 10 of one round can hold around 30 of a smaller round, and function well with both. But so long as the magazine was made to hold 10 of the larger round, it is not considered to have a capacity greater than 10. (of course you may not put 30 of the smaller round in it and use it in your firearm)

This is my understanding of the law based on my time spent here.

Interesting, so would loading 30 rounds of 22 rimfire in a magazine and placing that into the magwell of a centerfire rifle be considered illegal too? Also, is just the act of loading more than 10 in a magazine illegal? Or, does it only become illegal when you place it into a gun of the proper caliber?
For example, I have an XD 9 and a friend has and XD 40...the mags for the 40 can hold more than 10 rounds and work when used in the XD 9. Is this illegal too? I'm leaning towards yes but not 100%
Thanx for your input!

jtmkinsd
04-02-2011, 7:18 PM
Interesting, so would loading 30 rounds of 22 rimfire in a magazine and placing that into the magwell of a centerfire rifle be considered illegal too? Also, is just the act of loading more than 10 in a magazine illegal? Or, does it only become illegal when you place it into a gun of the proper caliber?
For example, I have an XD 9 and a friend has and XD 40...the mags for the 40 can hold more than 10 rounds and work when used in the XD 9. Is this illegal too? I'm leaning towards yes but not 100%
Thanx for your input!

Putting a different caliber round in a magazine designed for a larger round does not make it a large capacity magazine. It's perfectly legal. BUT as far as using them in a centerfire rifle with a BB? I wouldn't do it...and I can't tell you with any degree of certainty it's legal or not. I know of many individuals who use 20 round AR mags as a 10 round .454 Socom mag. But I would NEVER load more than 10 rounds in a BB'd rifle.

OleCuss
04-02-2011, 7:21 PM
Putting a different caliber round in a magazine designed for a larger round does not make it a large capacity magazine. It's perfectly legal.

This.

But note that you may have trouble if you bought the magazine and did not own the appropriate rifle. But if you owned that large caliber rifle you could buy the 10 round magazines and use them as 30 round magazines in your RAW AR-15.

Have to be a little careful not to manufacture an assault weapon. . .

xmustanguyx
04-02-2011, 7:31 PM
Meh...you bought a factory 10 round mag (or what you thought was a 10 round mag)...just because you can cram an 11th round in it would not subject you to legal jeopardy. But then again IANAL.

Also, I was told if it is stamped 10 round your should be good to go. The buyer is not a manufacturer or expected to be versed in the tolerances of magazine manufacture. Unless, it was his intent to do this (as with buying XD40 mags with the sole purpose of using them in the XD 9 with more than 10 rounds) he should be fine. I would imagine if the magazine looks questionable you might be in for some hard questions about if you altered it but that's about it.

Just my 2 cents!

tonelar
04-02-2011, 7:32 PM
The reason most magazines can hold an extra round is so they can be inserted into their firearm with the slide (or bolt) closed. If they really bottomed out at round #10 (or 15, 20, 30 or 42) they would only engage the mag catch with the action open.

I rebuilt my 15rnd 226 mags with 18rnd kits (13rnd 228 mags ith 15rnd kits). Next project will be rebuilding a 30rnd AR mag using a Beta kit.

xmustanguyx
04-02-2011, 7:36 PM
Putting a different caliber round in a magazine designed for a larger round does not make it a large capacity magazine. It's perfectly legal. BUT as far as using them in a centerfire rifle with a BB? I wouldn't do it...and I can't tell you with any degree of certainty it's legal or not. I know of many individuals who use 20 round AR mags as a 10 round .454 Socom mag. But I would NEVER load more than 10 rounds in a BB'd rifle.

Yeah, i've read about that .454 Socom deal. This is what got me interested in all the legalities of what this thread is about. I Spoke to a CHP at Starbucks once and posed this question to him regarding the XD40 and XD9 mag issues. He said if you get caught with it loaded that way that HE would arrest based on his interpretation of the PC. You may get off in court but would still have a trip to jail, be fingerprinted & booked. I figured just merely loading 14 rounds of 9mm in a 40 cal XD mag wouldn't be enough to arrest but he thought otherwise.
So...your mileage may vary---Don't run into this CHP guy!

xmustanguyx
04-02-2011, 7:38 PM
The reason most magazines can hold an extra round is so they can be inserted into their firearm with the slide (or bolt) closed. If they really bottomed out at round #10 (or 15, 20, 30 or 42) they would only engage the mag catch with the action open.

I rebuilt my 15rnd 226 mags with 18rnd kits (13rnd 228 mags ith 15rnd kits). Next project will be rebuilding a 30rnd AR mag using a Beta kit.

Thanx for that...Makes perfect sense!

Cokebottle
04-02-2011, 7:47 PM
as with buying XD40 mags with the sole purpose of using them in the XD 9 with more than 10 rounds
Applying some common sense....


It's a bit silly to play with a potential felony for an extra 2 rounds.
It MAY be legal, it MAY be illegal. Loading 12 9mm rounds into a .40 mag may very well be considered "manufacturing" by a sharp DA.

OleCuss
04-02-2011, 7:50 PM
Whatever the technicalities of the law might be, if I ever have a 10 rounder that will load 11 rounds - I'll get rid of that magazine. It may be completely legal but it doesn't mean that the defense lawyers and such won't cost tens of thousands of $dollars - or that I won't get convicted for "manufacturing" a high-capacity magazine.

So even if it is technically correct, I wouldn't use that magazine.

skylindrftr
04-02-2011, 11:08 PM
Sorta like... "But, I didnt inhale..." :rofl2:

Haha great, I'm the Bill Clinton of calguns :D

Thanks for the advice guys, I guess that dashes my dreams of rebuilding it into a 30 rounder :(