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View Full Version : Will you get denied for CCW if a Felon lives in your home?


moleculo
04-01-2011, 8:35 AM
Need some expert opinion as this is a real scenario, not a hypothetical:

A close friend who lives in San Bernardino County has a clean record and is an upstanding guy. He wishes to obtain a CCW as he lives in the outskirts of Phelan where the Sheriff isn't able to respond to any incident very quickly. He has taken in his older brother to live with his family who was recently released from a 6 month prison sentence with a felony. My buddy has asked some of his cop friends that live in the area if he will be able to obtain a CCW with his brother living with them and they have told him that he will be denied.

Any firearms that he purchases would be kept in a locked safe when not in use by him so that the felon would not have access to them.

What say the experts about this scenario? Will they deny the rights of one individual based on the past actions of another, or is the information he has already received just BS? He told me yesterday that he's willing to go through the process to find out if some good can come of it, but would rather not waste money on something that he knows in advance is a losing cause.

boxbro
04-01-2011, 8:47 AM
My instincts say that if they know there is a felon living with him they will deny.
This may be different in shall issue states, not really sure though.

stix213
04-01-2011, 11:37 AM
I'm no expert but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. So the sheriff's office because you have a felon living at your home they will try to prevent you from carrying your weapon on you while not at home, forcing you to leave the weapon at home with the felon when you aren't there. Freaking geniuses... :confused::rolleyes:

Gray Peterson
04-01-2011, 11:39 AM
Need some expert opinion as this is a real scenario, not a hypothetical:

A close friend who lives in San Bernardino County has a clean record and is an upstanding guy. He wishes to obtain a CCW as he lives in the outskirts of Phelan where the Sheriff isn't able to respond to any incident very quickly. He has taken in his older brother to live with his family who was recently released from a 6 month prison sentence with a felony. My buddy has asked some of his cop friends that live in the area if he will be able to obtain a CCW with his brother living with them and they have told him that he will be denied.

Any firearms that he purchases would be kept in a locked safe when not in use by him so that the felon would not have access to them.

What say the experts about this scenario? Will they deny the rights of one individual based on the past actions of another, or is the information he has already received just BS? He told me yesterday that he's willing to go through the process to find out if some good can come of it, but would rather not waste money on something that he knows in advance is a losing cause.

The information is BS. First, as the sheriff should already well know, a CCW is not neccesary to have possession of a firearm in one's home. How would a CCW influence any further dangerous.

Have him apply. Have him follow our suggested wording with the DOJ application. The applicant is not the brother here. If one is judged solely on the actions purely of others, it's a due process violation.

raycm2
04-01-2011, 4:51 PM
^^ This.

I don't see any place on the CCW application to list the name(s) of felon(s) living with you. :rolleyes:

Tell him to just apply. Hopefully the deputies he's already talked to will not spoil it for him.

kermitz
04-01-2011, 5:09 PM
Isn't it still illegal for a felon to be in the same residence/vehicle ect of a gun?

jtmkinsd
04-01-2011, 5:12 PM
Isn't it still illegal for a felon to be in the same residence/vehicle ect of a gun?

They are not able to be in possession of, or have access to firearms. If the gun is locked in a case, or in a safe at home, neither applies.

Gray Peterson
04-01-2011, 5:16 PM
They are not able to be in possession of, or have access to firearms. If the gun is locked in a case, or in a safe at home, neither applies.

In safe, in locked room, on your body.

Tell him to just apply. Hopefully the deputies he's already talked to will not spoil it for him.

If they attempt to spoil it for them, assuming it's solely due to the felon brother being there, we have nice words for that: a demand letter.

sandman21
04-01-2011, 5:19 PM
^^ This.

I don't see any place on the CCW application to list the name(s) of felon(s) living with you. :rolleyes:

Tell him to just apply. Hopefully the deputies he's already talked to will not spoil it for him.

San Bernardino interviews neighbors, employer, etc. they would probably interview a roommate as well. I am sure that in course of there investigation it will come out.

voiceofreason
04-01-2011, 6:04 PM
I'm no expert but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. So the sheriff's office because you have a felon living at your home they will try to prevent you from carrying your weapon on you while not at home, forcing you to leave the weapon at home with the felon when you aren't there. Freaking geniuses... :confused::rolleyes:

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

MrClamperSir
04-01-2011, 6:25 PM
No expert here but a felon in the vicinity only changes the precautions one must take to prevent said felon from access. Think of felons as small children and the rules are comparable.

jtmkinsd
04-01-2011, 7:05 PM
In safe, in locked room, on your body.

The locked case I spoke of was assuming transporting in a car...although I'm not sure this would shield one from prosecution...unless it's in a locked trunk to which there is not a release in the driving compartment.

Ron-Solo
04-01-2011, 9:18 PM
If said felon is on parole, as soon as they run an address check it will come up via the parolee databases. The liklihood of being issued a CCW under these conditions are "Slim" and "none" and Slim is saddling his horse to leave.

dantodd
04-01-2011, 11:27 PM
If said felon is on parole, as soon as they run an address check it will come up via the parolee databases. The liklihood of being issued a CCW under these conditions are "Slim" and "none" and Slim is saddling his horse to leave.

Denying a law abiding citizen his 2a rights because of his roommate's criminal record will likely end a sheriff on the wrong end a lawsuit.

peekay331
04-02-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't know if the CCW would be denied on this basis, but the brother would likely risk being charged with being a felon in possession. Whether he would actually be convicted is another question depending on the facts, e.g. is the gun in a safe, etc, but being in the same house as a firearm dramatically increases that risk.

Ford8N
04-02-2011, 6:47 AM
If said felon is on parole, as soon as they run an address check it will come up via the parolee databases. The liklihood of being issued a CCW under these conditions are "Slim" and "none" and Slim is saddling his horse to leave.

And if the Parole agent does a spot check and finds ANYTHING it's back to the grey bar. Say you forget to put away your gun....

MrClamperSir
04-02-2011, 6:56 AM
I don't know if the CCW would be denied on this basis, but the brother would likely risk being charged with being a felon in possession. Whether he would actually be convicted is another question depending on the facts, e.g. is the gun in a safe, etc, but being in the same house as a firearm dramatically increases that risk.

Agreed. The felons risk for being "violated" would increase. I think awareness and precaution is the key.

Before bringing a firearm into the mix and applying for a CCW, I think the law abider would have to consider putting his brother back in harms way due to an overzealous PO.

That being said, It should not be a prohibiting factor, from a legal standpoint, in obtaining a permit.

ubet
04-02-2011, 7:01 AM
Tell him to just kick his brother out.
:hide:

b76
04-02-2011, 7:44 AM
I'm no expert but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. So the sheriff's office because you have a felon living at your home they will try to prevent you from carrying your weapon on you while not at home, forcing you to leave the weapon at home with the felon when you aren't there. Freaking geniuses... :confused::rolleyes:

Lmao.


Sounds dumb. It's not as if ur giving the brother a ccw in a combo. If that us true. Very unfortunate

nicki
04-02-2011, 11:19 AM
If you have a "Felon" living with you, it is all the more reason to give you a CCW so that when you are away, your gun is not at home, but with you.:43:

That way the "Felon" at home doesn't have access to your gun(s) and if you run into bad "Felons" intent on being "repeat offenders", if needed, you can make them "dead offenders:D

Nicki

Ron-Solo
04-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Denying a law abiding citizen his 2a rights because of his roommate's criminal record will likely end a sheriff on the wrong end a lawsuit.

Sorry dan, but it would be easily defended based on "judgement" issues by associating with a convicted felon.

If CA were 'shall issue' it might be a different story.

MrClamperSir
04-02-2011, 6:17 PM
Sorry dan, but it would be easily defended based on "judgement" issues by associating with a convicted felon.

If CA were 'shall issue' it might be a different story.

I hear what you're saying but guilt by association?? I don't know about that. People make mistakes, even big ones, and can still turn their lives around.

In my opinion there are deferent degrees of transgression and I wouldn't paint all felons with the same brush. Also remember this is his brother not just some guy who he chooses to hang with. It may not be much different but there is a difference.

wildhawker
04-02-2011, 7:16 PM
I hear what you're saying but guilt by association?? I don't know about that. People make mistakes, even big ones, and can still turn their lives around.

In my opinion there are deferent degrees of transgression and I wouldn't paint all felons with the same brush. Also remember this is his brother not just some guy who he chooses to hang with. It may not be much different but there is a difference.

Ron's right in that - family or not - close association with a felon in our current system is absolutely reason enough to deny for a perceived lack of moral character.

From my perspective, and I'd like to think it's at least somewhat informed, I woud not desire to take a case (in a may-issue system) based on denial due to association with a felon. If we get a robust bear decision out of USSC, I would revisit the issue then.

-Brandon

p.s. Congrats on the retirement Ron!

xmustanguyx
04-02-2011, 7:53 PM
To add to this if you are approved now they for sure know you have a firearm on premises and if/when his parole officer comes wouldn't he have good cause to come down with his guns blazing? I mean for parole checks and the like.

MrClamperSir
04-02-2011, 9:30 PM
Ron's right in that - family or not - close association with a felon in our current system is absolutely reason enough to deny for a perceived lack of moral character.

From my perspective, and I'd like to think it's at least somewhat informed, I woud not desire to take a case (in a may-issue system) based on denial due to association with a felon. If we get a robust bear decision out of USSC, I would revisit the issue then.

-Brandon

p.s. Congrats on the retirement Ron!

Agreed it can most certainly be a reason someone is denied under our current system. I should have said that and followed up with my opinion on right vs. wrong.

I don't believe it's right to deny someone their rights because of an association. I also feel if that were the case the right people would be interested in defending that.

Of course, now may not be the time and most peoples views on felons are pretty strong to say the least.

jtmkinsd
04-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Agreed it can most certainly be a reason someone is denied under our current system. I should have said that and followed up with my opinion on right vs. wrong.

I don't believe it's right to deny someone their rights because of an association. I also feel if that were the case the right people would be interested in defending that.

Of course, now may not be the time and most peoples views on felons are pretty strong to say the least.

It's about as close as we come to the scarlet letter...or associating with someone with the scarlet letter.

Ron-Solo
04-02-2011, 11:06 PM
In my experience, a persn has to work really hard to get a felony conviction in this state. There are a lot of potential felonies that get booked as a felony, but the DA only files misdemeanor charges. I've even seen it for robbery an burglary. About the only thing that rarely gets reduced before trial are sex crimes involving minors and forcible rape.

By the time most individuals go up for a felony, they've been around the block more than once.

JRob
04-03-2011, 9:55 AM
Maybe the site needs a FAQ, "Will I get denied a CA CCW if....?"

A: "Yes - any situation is 'justification' for denial in CA"

cruising7388
04-03-2011, 10:00 AM
Sorry dan, but it would be easily defended based on "judgement" issues by associating with a convicted felon.

If CA were 'shall issue' it might be a different story.


Well, hold on a second. If just associating with a convicted felon is the basis for permit denial, wouldn't an employer face the same consequence for providing employment to a convicted felon?

MrClamperSir
04-03-2011, 10:02 AM
In my experience, a persn has to work really hard to get a felony conviction in this state.

While I'm sure that is true, what is your point? It is now impossible to be a decent, law abiding citizen? I don't think so.

About the only thing that rarely gets reduced before trial are sex crimes involving minors and forcible rape.


Just to be clear, I don't believe the type of person who would commit these kinds of crimes is redeemable in society’s eyes. But that only illustrates my point further that there are several degrees of transgressions one could commit and a felony is anything from, selling a 15 round magazine, to murder.

s4alex
04-03-2011, 11:32 AM
Maybe the site needs a FAQ, "Will I get denied a CA CCW if....?"

A: "Yes - any situation is 'justification' for denial in CA"

Yeah, or just about any Q: Will I get denied a handgun if... I live with a Felon?

A: ???

wildhawker
04-03-2011, 1:17 PM
Well, hold on a second. If just associating with a convicted felon is the basis for permit denial, wouldn't an employer face the same consequence for providing employment to a convicted felon?

Not really, as the employee-employer relationship and operation of business is worlds away from the resident-government relationship with its associated duties and rules for conduct. However, employers might be denied access to some governmental and non-governmental relationships on the grounds of their employment of a felon (e.g. security contracts, construction in sensitive areas, information technologies). Also, there are social influences which affect a business employing felons ("Did you heard that's XYZ Plumbers hire violent felons to do service calls?! There's no way I'd hire them!").

Maybe the site needs a FAQ, "Will I get denied a CA CCW if....?"

A: "Yes - any situation is 'justification' for denial in CA"

That's somewhat true of the current system though there are some exceptions.

Yeah, or just about any Q: Will I get denied a handgun if... I live with a Felon?

A: ???

A: Maybe, and issuance may present some uncomfortable legal situations for [potentially both] the licensee and parolee/felon.

Southwest Chuck
04-03-2011, 2:48 PM
Let's turn this around and see what we have. Let's say a person all ready has his CCW. He's been vetted and been found to be qualified. Now, after the fact, his felonious brother comes to live with him. Would that then be grounds for the issuing agency to REVOLK his CCW permit on the basis of a degradation of his good moral character?

It would seem that if the answer is no, logically then, there would be no rational basis for denying an original CCW permit to him given the OP's situation. But then again, applying logic and rationality to CA's may issue CCW system is like.... eating peas with a butter knife.... you can try it, but you'll eventually starve. ;)

wildhawker
04-03-2011, 3:22 PM
I think, under the current system, an issuing authority could (and most certainly would) revoke the license if/when they were informed of the licensee's domiciling with a felon (that's not to say such an action would be constitutionally acceptable, but it might be - we just don't know yet). As a general rule, I would recommend gun owners not live with felons; having one's CCW revoked is only one possible issue that it implicates.

In a different and future world, the law might be more favorable to the non-felon gun owner. Right now, however, the most you'd likely see is the licensing authority consider testimony and evidence from the former licensee, et al, in support of reconsideration of the decision to revoke the permit.

-Brandon

Let's turn this around and see what we have. Let's say a person all ready has his CCW. He's been vetted and been found to be qualified. Now, after the fact, his felonious brother comes to live with him. Would that then be grounds for the issuing agency to REVOLK his CCW permit on the basis of a degradation of his good moral character?

It would seem that if the answer is no, logically then, there would be no rational basis for denying an original CCW permit to him given the OP's situation. But then again, applying logic and rationality to CA's may issue CCW system is like.... eating peas with a butter knife.... you can try it, but you'll eventually starve. ;)

Ron-Solo
04-03-2011, 7:34 PM
While I'm sure that is true, what is your point? It is now impossible to be a decent, law abiding citizen? I don't think so.



Just to be clear, I don't believe the type of person who would commit these kinds of crimes is redeemable in society’s eyes. But that only illustrates my point further that there are several degrees of transgressions one could commit and a felony is anything from, selling a 15 round magazine, to murder.

My point is this, by the time someone ends up with a felony conviction, they have been in and out of the system multiple times and have shown that they have few redeemiong social values.

While there are many things that can be arrested and booked as a felony (such as selling hicaps, billy clubs, controlled substances) they are almost always reduced to a misdemeanor before it ever gets to court, unless the person has an extensive history of prior offenses. GTA is always booked as a felony, but is almost always filed as a misdemeanor until the person racks up a couple of priors for GTA.

By the time the majority of convicted felons get that status, they are no longer socially redeemable. Once they do state time, they are usually a lost cause. Sad, but it is reality.

MrClamperSir
04-03-2011, 9:06 PM
My point is this, by the time someone ends up with a felony conviction, they have been in and out of the system multiple times and have shown that they have few redeemiong social values.

While there are many things that can be arrested and booked as a felony (such as selling hicaps, billy clubs, controlled substances) they are almost always reduced to a misdemeanor before it ever gets to court, unless the person has an extensive history of prior offenses. GTA is always booked as a felony, but is almost always filed as a misdemeanor until the person racks up a couple of priors for GTA.


I guess I'm going to have to rely on your expertise in this matter since my experience with convicted felons is extremely limited and seems to be an exception to the rule.

By the time the majority of convicted felons get that status, they are no longer socially redeemable. Once they do state time, they are usually a lost cause. Sad, but it is reality.

It is sad that someone could feel the only way to live life is through a revolving door of "the system".

press1280
04-04-2011, 3:20 AM
They may deny him just because they feel like it. However, a Federal court has ruled that one cannot be stripped of ownership because of a felon living in the home. A denial of a CCW because of a felon roommate might be a lawsuit in the future, after the right to carry publicly has been established.

blazeaglory
05-08-2011, 9:45 PM
i would like to ask the same question but in regards to a simple AR15 PPT rifle purchase...

would a person, with no criminal record, be denied a CA legal AR15 because THEIR SON is a non violent, never been on parole (only informal probation), no prison time, convicted of "possession with the intent to sell felony", who no longer lives at the same address but uses the address as an old living address and mailing address...phew...would the clean record person be denied even though the non violent soft felon technically is show as still living at the same addy?

socal2310
05-08-2011, 10:09 PM
i would like to ask the same question but in regards to a simple AR15 PPT rifle purchase...

would a person, with no criminal record, be denied a CA legal AR15 because THEIR SON is a non violent, never been on parole (only informal probation), no prison time, convicted of "possession with the intent to sell felony", who no longer lives at the same address but uses the address as an old living address and mailing address...phew...would the clean record person be denied even though the non violent soft felon technically is show as still living at the same addy?

Firearm purchases in California (so far) are not subject to intensive background checks or interviews. Your information is simply compared to a database of persons prohibited from possessing firearms and the purchase is approved or denied on that basis. You wouldn't be denied if your spouse was a prohibited person so long as your record was clean. Because we are in a "May Issue" state, YMMV if you applied for a CCW. Sheriff's and police chiefs are in theory allowed to approve or deny based on any arbitrary criteria they care to name.

Ryan

ke6guj
05-08-2011, 10:10 PM
would a person, with no criminal record, be denied a CA legal AR15 because THEIR SON is a non violent, never been on parole (only informal probation), no prison time, convicted of "possession with the intent to sell felony", who no longer lives at the same address but uses the address as an old living address and mailing address...phew...would the clean record person be denied even though the non violent soft felon technically is show as still living at the same addy?

no, you wouldn't be denied. They don't normally check anything other than your criminal/mental health history.

blazeaglory
05-08-2011, 10:27 PM
granny is good to go then!