PDA

View Full Version : Bolt Action Rifle w/Flash Suppresor


androu
03-31-2011, 1:40 PM
I purchased a Ruger 308 Scout Rifle online and had it shipped to my local dealer. Now that it has arrived they are concerned that it might be illegal to transfer it to me because it has a flash suppresor. I'm 100% sure it's NOT an illegal AW of any kind even though it has a removable magazine and a flash suppresor, because it is not a semi-auto weapon, it's a bolt-action.


Right?

Joe
03-31-2011, 1:42 PM
Correct

InGrAM
03-31-2011, 1:48 PM
Yes, they are idiots.

pointedstick
03-31-2011, 1:58 PM
Just show them the flowchart. It can be as evil as you want if it's not semi-auto.

androu
03-31-2011, 1:59 PM
CA gun laws are really complicated compared to most other states but still, It never ceases to amaze me how little gun store employees (and sometimes even the owners) know about firearms laws. If I were "in the business" I would certainly consider it a priority to educate myself on the law governing my activites. I have done a great deal of research on firearms laws and try to keep up by reading this forum and other sources, and I'm just a recreational shooter. I'm going over there this afternoon and share the Calguns AW flowchart and a copy of the DOJ AW guide with them.

Nick Justice
03-31-2011, 3:38 PM
You can put all the "evil" features you want on it. It's a bolt action, not a semi-auto.

stix213
03-31-2011, 3:41 PM
If they are concerned it may be illegal, why don't they look up the relevant law instead of dumping their ignorance and responsibilities on the customer?

Ya flash hiders are legal on bolt guns as already stated.

bwiese
03-31-2011, 4:05 PM
Find another FFL that is worthy of your funds.

MasterYong
03-31-2011, 4:20 PM
Always scary when FFLs don't know basic stuff like this.

I can forgive the average gun owner, who buys maybe 1 to 5 guns in their entire life, for not keeping up on gun laws. But, a DEALER?

Reminds me of the FFL that wanted to sell me a Saiga 12 with no BB. He kept confusing the rifle AW laws with the SG ones. I told him no thanks.

androu
03-31-2011, 6:32 PM
OK, so I go in there this afternoon and talk to the owner. He's a real nice guy, but now I know he's really clueless and scared of the DOJ. I show him the relevant section of the AW guide from the DOJ and the Calguns flowchart. Nope, he says, "that's the assault weapon law and that doesn't tell me a flash hider is legal". So I asked him if he could refer me to any law that says a flash suppressor is ILLEGAL. He's says he's not sure off the top of his head, but has a call into the DOJ and won't transfer the weapon until they get back to him with the OK. I point out two rifles for sale in his store THAT HAVE FLASH SUPPRESSORS INSTALLED (both 22 cal. AR look-alikes). He says "the manufacturer says they are recoil compensators". They clearly weren't. So I asked him if he could just unscrew the evil flash suppressor on my rifle before he transfers the weapon. He says "then it would have a threaded barrel, which is also illegal". I point out a KelTec SU-16 he has has for sale THAT HAS A THREADED BARREL. By this time he's getting really emotional and mumbles something about it being "technically illegal" and tells me how terrible the inspections he has to submit to are and how they're out to shut him down, etc. I'm sure those inspections are a royal pain in the ***, but to me, that seems like all the more reason to be very knowledgeable of the law, so that you can stay out of trouble AND avoid pissing off customers. So I'm waiting for the DOJ to confirm to him that it's OK to transfer a perfectly legal gun. If they tell him no, I guess I'll be stuck for return shipping. Either way, I'll be taking my business elsewhere from now on.

Shotgun Man
03-31-2011, 6:41 PM
This what the California business environment does to the spirit and soul of the entrepreneur.

SASchnell
03-31-2011, 6:46 PM
Who is th FFL? I want to be sure I don't use them!!

Fjold
03-31-2011, 6:47 PM
The dealer is to stupid to be in business.

TRICKSTER
03-31-2011, 8:14 PM
Here is a link to the DOJ's California Firearms Laws booklet. He should already know what is legal and what isn't, but ask him to show you where a flash hider or threaded barrel is illegal on a bolt action rifle. Is this a real, full time dealer with a store? It's bad enough that any FFL would be this misinformed, but if it's a full time dealer, he should be ashamed of himself. Instead of running scared of DOJ, he needs to learn the laws that control the profession that he is in. Sounds like this may be a nice guy, but he has no idea of what he is doing. His interpretation that the DOJ is trying to "shut him down" may just be the result of his lack of knowledge and therefore mistakes discovered during inspections. If he is confident in this knowledge of the laws, there is no reason to be afraid.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

androu
04-01-2011, 2:09 PM
Is this a real, full time dealer with a store?


Yep, it's a real, full-time busines with a store and everything, not just a guy working out of his garage or something. Pretty amazing.

Unfortunately, in the tiny town I live in, many of the businesses operate with little or no competition and thus, operate rather poorly. I was always glad just to have a gun shop in town until now. If/when I finally get my rifle out of quarantine, I'll take my business out of town.

tuna quesadilla
04-01-2011, 2:20 PM
What shop is it?

MasterYong
04-01-2011, 4:18 PM
Yep, it's a real, full-time busines with a store and everything, not just a guy working out of his garage or something. Pretty amazing.

Unfortunately, in the tiny town I live in, many of the businesses operate with little or no competition and thus, operate rather poorly. I was always glad just to have a gun shop in town until now. If/when I finally get my rifle out of quarantine, I'll take my business out of town.

If it makes you feel any better, I've yet to run across an FFL in California that knows the laws as well as I do, and I don't know them for squat in comparison to most of the "high post count" folks on here (though post count isn't everything so verify any info you're ever given online).

FFLs for some reason have this aversion to knowing the law, while at the same time are very strongly opinionated about their alleged knowledge of said law.

androu
04-02-2011, 10:59 AM
Big surprise! Yesterday, the owner gets a call back from the DOJ (apparently they were closed Thursday for "Ceasar Chavez Day") and they tell him yes, of course it's OK, it's a bolt action rifle and not covered by any part of the Assault Weapon law. Duh! So I went in, did the paperwork and am in the wait period. Which, BTW, of all the silly CA gun laws, is the most irksome to me. If I'm really in some sort of passionate, crazed state and desperately want to go commit a crime with a firearm, I've got a whole safe full of them I could use. I don't really need this particualr one.

eltee
04-02-2011, 4:38 PM
Please write a review after you've taken it out, broken it in and put a box or two through your new Scout rifle.

Don29palms
04-02-2011, 4:45 PM
I got to shoot a Scout rifle this morning. WOW! What a great shooter that is.

Bruce
04-02-2011, 8:06 PM
They sound like they're related to the idiot in Georgia who wouldn't sell me a bolt-action Romanian ,22LR rifle because it had a detachable magazine, and that under California law it was considered an assault weapon. He knew that because he had the ATF book of state firearm laws. :kest:

jtmkinsd
04-02-2011, 8:13 PM
He says "then it would have a threaded barrel, which is also illegal".

EPIC FAIL!!! RUN, don't walk away from this dealer. Or tell him you called the manufacturer and they "told you it's a recoil compensator". :rofl2:

Wrangler John
04-03-2011, 4:15 AM
Don't be so hard on this dealer. If any of you had to work with government regulations and the possibility of losing your business to a license revocation, the shoe would be on the other foot. Cut the guy some slack. Even if he knows the booklets forward and backward, he has the duty to make certain that his interpretation is correct.

I worked with federal, state and local regulations for many years, and can say it isn't easy, and I had access to a legal staff for just those reasons. It becomes absurd. I had the Regional Water Quality Control Board Inspector telling me to do one thing, and the Department of Fish and Game Warden telling me the opposite, even though I had a permit from both agencies allowing the activity. Both threatened to fine my employer on a daily basis for the thing not being done or being done. It was necessary to refer the matter to the legal department and threaten court action to stop the bickering. I coined the term, "dueling agency syndrome," just for that reason.

What chance does a gun shop owner have?

Delaying the purchase of a scout rifle so the shop owner can be certain of a gray area is not a disaster - so man up and cut the guy some slack. How would it feel if the only gun shop in town went belly-up on account of his wanting to be certain of the law?

SanPedroShooter
04-03-2011, 8:17 AM
I got to shoot a Scout rifle this morning. WOW! What a great shooter that is.

Hell ya! I am jacking this thread to say those scouts look bad ***! Give us a review if you ever get it out of jail...

jtmkinsd
04-03-2011, 9:11 AM
Don't be so hard on this dealer. If any of you had to work with government regulations and the possibility of losing your business to a license revocation, the shoe would be on the other foot. Cut the guy some slack. Even if he knows the booklets forward and backward, he has the duty to make certain that his interpretation is correct.

I worked with federal, state and local regulations for many years, and can say it isn't easy, and I had access to a legal staff for just those reasons. It becomes absurd. I had the Regional Water Quality Control Board Inspector telling me to do one thing, and the Department of Fish and Game Warden telling me the opposite, even though I had a permit from both agencies allowing the activity. Both threatened to fine my employer on a daily basis for the thing not being done or being done. It was necessary to refer the matter to the legal department and threaten court action to stop the bickering. I coined the term, "dueling agency syndrome," just for that reason.

What chance does a gun shop owner have?

Delaying the purchase of a scout rifle so the shop owner can be certain of a gray area is not a disaster - so man up and cut the guy some slack. How would it feel if the only gun shop in town went belly-up on account of his wanting to be certain of the law?

This is remedial information for us to know:

A bolt action firearm, by definition, cannot fall under the assault weapons laws (unless it's a .50 BMG and there are specific laws for that firearm) and therefore can have all the evil features in the world.

A threaded barrel is only important on a handgun. You can have threads from the breech to the muzzle on a rifle and it doesn't mean a thing.

I know there are other dealers out there who don't keep up to speed on this stuff, because they deal primarily with more basic rifle/shotgun/handgun models...usually the more traditional hunting type firearms. But this is REALLY CA firearms dealer 101 stuff.

Sunday
04-03-2011, 2:19 PM
Working in a gun shop doesn't mean they are the brightest lights on the string.

jtmkinsd
04-03-2011, 2:34 PM
Working in a gun shop doesn't mean they are the brightest lights on the string.

Not a fair statement...and not what I meant by my post. A single (and more rare than many would have you believe here) instance should not be used to "broad brush" the industry.

If you want a lot of stress, angry/impatient/know-it-all/want-it-all now customers, not one but two governmental regulatory agencies who can throw you in prison for making mistakes, a third who can ruin you financially if you don't bow to their whim...then by all means, open your own or come work in a gun shop.

emcon5
04-03-2011, 5:56 PM
If you want a lot of stress, angry/impatient/know-it-all/want-it-all now customers, not one but two governmental regulatory agencies who can throw you in prison for making mistakes, a third who can ruin you financially if you don't bow to their whim...then by all means, open your own or come work in a gun shop.

Seems like it would be in their best interest to get at least a basic understanding of firearms laws......

ElvenSoul
04-03-2011, 6:14 PM
Have it blessed by a priest then it's not evil.

Cokebottle
04-03-2011, 6:25 PM
they are concerned that it might be illegal to transfer it to me because it has a flash suppresor....... it's a bolt-action
Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Print out the flowchart and the PC and take it to them.

rromeo
04-03-2011, 6:34 PM
Working in a gun shop doesn't mean they are the brightest lights on the string.

Not a fair statement...and not what I meant by my post. A single (and more rare than many would have you believe here) instance should not be used to "broad brush" the industry.

I'm not taking it as a broad brush, just saying working in a gun store doesn't make you know it all.

Joewy
04-03-2011, 6:35 PM
Pardon my ignorance but being that Im from Wyoming and not California... What is a flowchart for???

Librarian
04-03-2011, 7:12 PM
Pardon my ignorance but being that Im from Wyoming and not California... What is a flowchart for???

Guidance on following the 'assault weapon' laws. See the links at the top of the forum.

jtmkinsd
04-03-2011, 7:22 PM
Seems like it would be in their best interest to get at least a basic understanding of firearms laws......

I can't argue with that...no doubt some are not as educated as others.

Cokebottle
04-03-2011, 7:38 PM
Pardon my ignorance but being that Im from Wyoming and not California... What is a flowchart for???
What the whole topic of the thread is about.

A guy's FFL seems to think that his bolt action rifle may be illegal in California since it has an SB23 "Evil Feature" (the flash hider)... but bolt action and rimfire rifles are exempt from California Assault Weapon laws.
The flowchart shows that.

You don't have to deal with it in Wyoming.

tenpercentfirearms
04-04-2011, 6:38 AM
Was it Fry? If so, tell him to contact me and I will straighten him out. He should know I know all of the rules by now.

I love that you keep pointing out the things in his shop that are legit just like your Ruger and he has no good excuse. Classic.

androu
04-04-2011, 10:11 AM
I definately have empathy for the crap any gun dealer in CA has to deal with, and the owner of the store in question is a real nice guy. But really, this wasn't a "gray area" or a matter of opinion or interpretation. The gun was CLEARLY 100% legal. I believe it's a simple case of a business owner who hasn't bothered to keep up with the laws governing his business and didn't like being corrected by a customer.

Joewy
04-04-2011, 10:22 AM
What the whole topic of the thread is about.

A guy's FFL seems to think that his bolt action rifle may be illegal in California since it has an SB23 "Evil Feature" (the flash hider)... but bolt action and rimfire rifles are exempt from California Assault Weapon laws.
The flowchart shows that.

You don't have to deal with it in Wyoming.

I took a look at that spreadsheet and all I can say is "what is wrong" with the politicians in California. I knew that it was not a easy place for firearms owners but what differance does a pistol grip or a flash supressor have to do with making a regular rifle a battle rifle??

Librarian
04-04-2011, 11:03 AM
I took a look at that spreadsheet and all I can say is "what is wrong" with the politicians in California. I knew that it was not a easy place for firearms owners but what differance does a pistol grip or a flash supressor have to do with making a regular rifle a battle rifle??

Ah, like many who view CA gun laws for the first time, you make the perfectly logical, but wrong, assumption that the laws are about 'guns'.

They're not.

The laws are about getting politicians re-elected.

It works like this: someone perceives a Problem. A legislator, seeing the Problem, introduces a bill that contains some words that also happen to be in the description of the Problem. If the bill passes, the legislator gets to say "See? I Did Something about the Problem! Vote for Me!". If the bill fails, the legislator says "See! I Tried to Do Something about the Problem! Vote for Me!"

Insert anything you like in the above for "Problem" and you will have California politics clear, at the macro level.

[/cynic]

DougJ
04-04-2011, 11:20 AM
What a frustrating experiance that must have been. Lot's of FUD and FAIL...

On one side of it, your shop owner needs to get his poo together if he's going to run a gun shop in this state. He's all over the place and wrong on many levels.

On the other hand, if this state didn't have such overly intrusive and complicated laws this wouldn't be an issue.