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goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 9:18 AM
Hey guys,

I have a question on the FCG that came in the Colt SP1. Serial # is SP1104XX....not sure when it was made. I was able to fondle this older Vietnam looking AR-15 for a bit and the owner claimed it was Semi only (out of state). I believed him, but wanted to take a closer look. Upon inspection, I found it had a Full Auto FCG! I told him, "Whoa, what do you have going on here?!?!" and asked him if he or any previous owner had changed anything out since the Factory purchase....he said, "no, back then they came that way". I then continued to inspect it. I found that the selector would indeed move into the third position, and it was properly milled out like the 3 position selectors are. When I flipped it into the unmarked "auto" 3rd position, it indeed pushed down the disconnector out of engagement of the hammer. I also saw that it had the full auto hammer with the "sear catch" on the back of the hammer's head. When I had the upper removed, I was able to move the selector into the third position, hold down the trigger and move the hammer back and forth freely WITHOUT it clicking and stopping (not requiring the trigger to be pressed to release the hammer). Indeed, this was a correct and functional Full Auto FCG.

Now the strange part was that there was ABSOLUTELY NO autosear or lightning link. The shelf was a "low shelf" lower with no "Colt block" installed. It didnt look as if anything had ever been installed and taken out either. It appeared that an auto sear **could** fit without milling anything out (this is common with many/most lowers today). There was also NO hole drilled into the lower for the auto sear to be installed. Then, I noticed the carrier was the semi-auto Colt SP1, not a full auto BCG.

Doing some more testing, I found that when I had the selector in the semi mode and no magazine installed, I could pull back the charging handle and let it go forward, and it would go back into battery ready to be fired. However, when the selector was moved into the third position, disabling the disconnector, I tried racking back the BCG and releasing it, but the BCG would stop half way in the upper receiver as if it was being blocked by something. Essentially, only in the semi position would the carrier return to battery.

So my conclusion was this: It was not a machine gun per the BASIC definition.....IE - it would only fire one shot per pull of the trigger, Constructive Possession issues aside.

Now for the legal question: Given that this gun is in it's factory condition with no change out of a semi FCG to a full auto FCG, having no auto sear and having a semi auto only carrier.......would this be legal with no possible issues of being charged with Constructive Possession of a Machine Gun? My (limited) understanding of CP is that you must have ALL of the parts to make a Machine Gun, SBR, SBS, etc, in order to be successfully prosecuted for CP. I understand that they may try to charge you (so why bother, right?), but that it couldn't hold up in court. I have heard of many HK's having both a full auto carrier plus full auto FCG's, but only fire in semi auto mode and no one gets in trouble for these......why then would AR's be any different? I guess what i'm wondering is, since the gun is semi auto (so it doesnt need to be registered with the ATF), how can owners of once lawfully purchased rifles be prosecuted for having this? You'd think if they banned them that they would grandfather in the ones that had already been purchased and register them to the owners.

Just curious...

Thanks.

freonr22
03-31-2011, 9:21 AM
fa fcg= constructive possession imho, ymmv... but it wont.... fa fcg= nonononononono

on the other hand a semi fcg + fa bolt carrier+ good to go

AJAX22
03-31-2011, 9:22 AM
The earliest ones came that way...

It's why DIAS registration was possible as a machinegun by itself...

I don't think I'd leave it that way myself, but that IS a factory configuration for those guns.

bwiese
03-31-2011, 9:26 AM
What you might get away with Federally may be a bit doubtful in CA.
The CA laws track NFA stuff in general but there's a lot less clarifying regulation, case law, etc.

I wouldn't own 'em myself - and if I did, I wouldn't. I'm pretty uncomfortable with parts that have a primary FA purpose due to wording in 12200PC definition of MG. There's a lotta grey hanging out there.

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 9:39 AM
fa fcg= constructive possession imho, ymmv... but it wont.... fa fcg= nonononononono

on the other hand a semi fcg + fa bolt carrier+ good to go

So federally speaking, you are saying that in order to be legal, you are REQUIRED to replace the internal parts to remain legal? Remember, this was made before Colt started selling them with Semi Auto FCG's, so it was legally purchased this way.


What you might get away with Federally may be a bit doubtful in CA.
The CA laws track NFA stuff in general but there's a lot less clarifying regulation, case law, etc.

I wouldn't own 'em myself - and if I did, I wouldn't. I'm pretty uncomfortable with parts that have a primary FA purpose due to wording in 12200PC definition of MG. There's a lotta grey hanging out there.

Yeah, I certainly wouldnt try this in CA....not to mention automatic AW status just because it's a Colt SP1. In the end, it doesnt matter here because we cant get FA guns at all, so there's no point in having a FA FCG if you cant go the whole 9 yards.

Scott Connors
03-31-2011, 9:51 AM
So federally speaking, you are saying that in order to be legal, you are REQUIRED to replace the internal parts to remain legal? Remember, this was made before Colt started selling them with Semi Auto FCG's, so it was legally purchased this way.




Yeah, I certainly wouldnt try this in CA....not to mention automatic AW status just because it's a Colt SP1. In the end, it doesnt matter here because we cant get FA guns at all, so there's no point in having a FA FCG if you cant go the whole 9 yards.

It is not a defense that "it came that way from the factory." Remember that case in Wisconsin that Lou Dobbs was publicizing? Army Reservists lent an AR to a friend, it was an old Olympic Arms with FA FCG. It doubled at the range, cop witnessed and contacted ATF, owner convicted of illegal transfer of MG. I wouldn't go near that thing w/o a semi FCG and a pin punch.

desertdweller
03-31-2011, 9:56 AM
I'd like to see pictures of the inside. This will fire select full auto if you put the switch to the third position but it won't last long as the trigger parts will get chewed up (tip of the trigger and a little catch on the hammer), after that you just have uncontrolled auto.

Again, like you said, while it probably won't hold up in court if they came this way from the factory, there still is the time in between....

On a lighter note, sounds like a very nice piece of early history!

desertdweller
03-31-2011, 10:00 AM
Remember that case in Wisconsin that Lou Dobbs was publicizing? Army Reservists lent an AR to a friend, it was an old Olympic Arms with FA FCG.

I remember that, and it was much more than a mis-fire. He was on forums telling people how to modify to full auto and got caught with other stuff too.

http://de-de.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=42718350374&_fb_noscript=1

mej16489
03-31-2011, 10:00 AM
I have an SP1 that came from the factory in nearly the exact configuration you describe. Mine had a FA BCG, so the only thing missing was the sear and holes.

When Roberti-Roos came along it got moved out of state into a corporation. A couple years later my brother and I went the NFA route with a DIAS. Sadly, it only gets shot about once every 2 years or so :(

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 10:04 AM
It is not a defense that "it came that way from the factory." Remember that case in Wisconsin that Lou Dobbs was publicizing? Army Reservists lent an AR to a friend, it was an old Olympic Arms with FA FCG. It doubled at the range, cop witnessed and contacted ATF, owner convicted of illegal transfer of MG. I wouldn't go near that thing w/o a semi FCG and a pin punch.

David Olofson is who you are talking about, and he intentionally changed his weapon to fire fully automatic in the third position, and when his friend Robert Kiernicki got caught at the range, it came back to Olofson and he tried to claim it was a malfunction.

Upon inspection of the weapon, the inspector tested the weapon in the third selector position and dumped 3 magazines. All 3 magazines fired full auto.

That's a far cry from "one double at the range".

EDIT:

I remember that, and it was much more than a mis-fire. He was on forums telling people how to modify to full auto and got caught with other stuff too.

http://de-de.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=42718350374&_fb_noscript=1

Yep :chris:

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 10:19 AM
I'd like to see pictures of the inside. This will fire select full auto if you put the switch to the third position but it won't last long as the trigger parts will get chewed up (tip of the trigger and a little catch on the hammer), after that you just have uncontrolled auto.

Again, like you said, while it probably won't hold up in court if they came this way from the factory, there still is the time in between....

On a lighter note, sounds like a very nice piece of early history!

I'll ask for some pictures....i'll post them up here if/when I get them.

supersonic
03-31-2011, 11:33 AM
When I had the upper removed, I was able to move the selector into the third position, hold down the trigger and move the hammer back and forth freely WITHOUT it clicking and stopping (not requiring the trigger to be pressed to release the hammer). Indeed, this was a correct and functional Full Auto FCG.

Something seems very strange about this part. This would mean that, apparently, when the rifle is discharged with the selector in the "#3" position, it would be slam-firing each & every time (not desirable NOR is this safe). With the selector in the #3 position, and you were holding the trigger back, that hammer should have caught on the disconnector. It is the bolt carrier design that effectively "times" the release of the hammer by hitting a sear just before going back into battery. But there was no auto sear. There is no way the rifle came like this from the manufacturer (Colt) & if the owner ever actually fired it in this condition (in #3 mode), he/she is lucky the piece is still in working condition today. Something tells me that certain M-16 parts were installed by someone who thought they knew what they were doing (legal or 'otherwise').........am I missing something here?

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 12:00 PM
In the #3 position, the only thing that holds back the hammer in a proper Fully Automatic AR-15/M16 is the Auto Sear. The design of the selector is such that when it is turned into the 3rd position, it pushes down the back of the disconnector, disengaging it from the backside of the hammer when it is pushed back by the carrier. The reason it does not slamfire is because the carrier is not a full auto carrier: It is the Colt SP1 carrier, so it should not allow for full auto or slam fire type situations. Furthermore, what vexes me is why the carrier was not allowed to go forward after charging it when in the 3rd position. Maybe with the sear notch on the hammer, it is jamming up on the carrier when it is coming back forward towards battery??? Without the auto sear holding the hammer back, im thinking the problem lies in the semi carrier. Wonder what would happen with a full auto carrier??? I sure ain't finding out....

In any case, I dont believe this was anything intentional.....the owner really doesnt know anything about how an AR functions. I was told the rifle has not been shot by the current owner and has been sitting in a safe for yeeears.

Still, it does seem odd that Colt would even sell a rifle with these parts. The only reason I can think that they would do that is because they werent manufacturing semi auto FCG civy editions yet.....if this rifle is that old.


On a side note, I've asked for pics and hopefully they'll come in soon. That may give someone an idea of when this thing was made.

supersonic
03-31-2011, 12:11 PM
In the #3 position, the only thing that holds back the hammer in a proper Fully Automatic AR-15/M16 is the Auto Sear. The design of the selector is such that when it is turned into the 3rd position, it pushes down the back of the disconnector, disengaging it from the backside of the hammer when it is pushed back by the carrier. The reason it does not slamfire is because the carrier is not a full auto carrier: It is the Colt SP1 carrier, so it should not allow for full auto or slam fire type situations. Furthermore, what vexes me is why the carrier was not allowed to go forward after charging it when in the 3rd position. Maybe with the sear notch on the hammer, it is jamming up on the carrier when it is coming back forward towards battery???

In any case, I dont believe this was anything intentional.....the owner really doesnt know anything about how an AR functions. I was told the rifle has not been shot by the current owner and has been sitting in a safe for yeeears.

Still, it does seem odd that Colt would even sell a rifle with these parts. The only reason I can think that they would do that is because they werent manufacturing semi auto FCG civy editions yet.....if this rifle is that old.


On a side note, I've asked for pics and hopefully they'll come in soon. That may give someone an idea of when this thing was made.

I don't see how a semi-auto carrier could "prevent" a slamfire in this situation, especially since the SP-1 carriers didn't have the firing pin shroud, thereby allowing hammer-to-firing pin contact much sooner than most of today's S/A and F/A carriers that have shrouded FP's. Again, maybe I am still missing something, as I am no expert on full-auto operation, but it still seems weird to me. At any rate, I look forward to seeing the pics.

Riodog
03-31-2011, 1:19 PM
"Something tells me that certain M-16 parts were installed by someone who thought they knew what they were doing (legal or 'otherwise')".

I think Super has it nailed.
Sounds like a mish/mash of mixed parts to me and while the possession is legal in other states, I wouldn't be caught dead with them around here.
I wouldn't admit to something like this also.
jmho
Rio

supersonic
03-31-2011, 4:03 PM
In the #3 position, the only thing that holds back the hammer in a proper Fully Automatic AR-15/M16 is the Auto Sear. The design of the selector is such that when it is turned into the 3rd position, it pushes down the back of the disconnector, disengaging it from the backside of the hammer when it is pushed back by the carrier. The reason it does not slamfire is because the carrier is not a full auto carrier: It is the Colt SP1 carrier, so it should not allow for full auto or slam fire type situations. Furthermore, what vexes me is why the carrier was not allowed to go forward after charging it when in the 3rd position. Maybe with the sear notch on the hammer, it is jamming up on the carrier when it is coming back forward towards battery??? Without the auto sear holding the hammer back, im thinking the problem lies in the semi carrier. Wonder what would happen with a full auto carrier??? I sure ain't finding out....

Now that I have had time to go back and read this, I have to say that I really want to hear your explanation of your words that I highlighted. What does the BCG type have to do at all with whether or not an AR without an AS will go into F/A or slam fire? Do you know where the auto sear engagement notch even is in relation to the bottom of the carrier when it is going forward into battery? And, since there is no auto sear to catch the hammer to begin with, the hammer will just follow the carrier home, not get caught up on the notch.

DesertGunner
03-31-2011, 6:20 PM
It is not a defense that "it came that way from the factory." Remember that case in Wisconsin that Lou Dobbs was publicizing? Army Reservists lent an AR to a friend, it was an old Olympic Arms with FA FCG. It doubled at the range, cop witnessed and contacted ATF, owner convicted of illegal transfer of MG. I wouldn't go near that thing w/o a semi FCG and a pin punch.

Except that's not even close to what actually happened....

supersonic
03-31-2011, 6:43 PM
I have an SP1 that came from the factory in nearly the exact configuration you describe. Mine had a FA BCG

Are you absolutely sure about that? The Colt SP-1 Model AR-15 had its own SP-1 Bolt Carrier which was absolutely semi-auto. In other words, it came with an SP-1 AR-15 carrier, not an M-16 carrier, which is what is considered a "Full Auto Bolt Carrier." Here are the differences:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/BCGs1.jpg

The one on top is an AR-15 bolt carrier (semi-auto)
The one in the middle is a Colt SP-1 bolt carrier (semi-auto)
The one on the bottom is an M-16 bolt carrier (full-auto) ***Notice the firing pin shroud on this one***

FLIGHT762
03-31-2011, 7:50 PM
Are you absolutely sure about that? The Colt SP-1 Model AR-15 had its own SP-1 Bolt Carrier which was absolutely semi-auto. In other words, it came with an SP-1 AR-15 carrier, not an M-16 carrier, which is what is considered a "Full Auto Bolt Carrier." Here are the differences:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/BCGs1.jpg

The one on top is an AR-15 bolt carrier (semi-auto)
The one in the middle is a Colt SP-1 bolt carrier (semi-auto)
The one on the bottom is an M-16 bolt carrier (full-auto) ***Notice the firing pin shroud on this one***

This discussion perked my interest since I have owned several early SP1 AR-15's over the years. I looked at my earliest example which is a early gun, A SP1 with serial # SP095XX (yes, four digit under 10,000) This rifle was purchased by me in the early 70's from a Viet Nam Vet who bought it after returning home in the late 60's. It has the old style 3 prong flash hider. The BCG is similar to the two AR-15 examples above that have the bottom of the BC milled off, except the firing pin area is enclosed like the M-16, not milled out like the 2 AR-15 examples. The BC is such an early example that it has smooth sides to it and does not have the forward assist notches milled into it (pre M-16 A1).

The FCG is standard two position, SAFE and FIRE and does not rotate to the third position. None of my SP1's rotated to a third position. It is my opinion that the rifle mentioned by the O/P had a full auto selector installed. It did not come that way from the factory.

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 7:53 PM
Now that I have had time to go back and read this, I have to say that I really want to hear your explanation of your words that I highlighted. What does the BCG type have to do at all with whether or not an AR without an AS will go into F/A or slam fire? Do you know where the auto sear engagement notch even is in relation to the bottom of the carrier when it is going forward into battery? And, since there is no auto sear to catch the hammer to begin with, the hammer will just follow the carrier home, not get caught up on the notch.

I totally get what you're saying. And I agree. I was really just thinking out loud. I couldnt think of what else it could possibly be: I mean, what else could possibly get in the way of the carrier returning to batter other than the hammer? I guess the only other possibility is that, somehow, the hammer wasnt itself the problem but rather something in the way the FCG was acting, in that it kept the hammer from following the carrier when returning to batter.....ergo holding up the BCG.

As for the non-slam fire, the whole reason that a semi carrier has that notch cut out underneath the firing pin is so that the hammer WILL hit it. If you think about the direction the hammer would be hitting the firing pin at the half way point of the carrier return, it is hitting the firing pin upwards, probably at a 45 degree angle....not perpendicularly which is needed to dent the primer. However, when you have that extra metal there to keep the hammer from hitting the firing pin until the carrier and bolt is fully into battery, that extra metal is acting like a piece of leverage, enabling the hammer to potentially strike the primer in the perpendicular position needed to ignite the primer. Again, just thinking out loud on this one....im not what I would call an AR-15 guru, but I know my way around the block ;)

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 7:57 PM
PICTURES!!!

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro1.jpg

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro2.jpg

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro3.jpg

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro4.jpg

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro5.jpg

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro6.jpg

goodlookin1
03-31-2011, 7:58 PM
http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro7.jpg

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro8.jpg

FLIGHT762
03-31-2011, 8:19 PM
I forgot to mention, my early rifle has a hammer that is rounded, similar to the m-16 except the auto sear hook on the rear has been removed.

Photos of your later rifle came with a hammer that had no hook and had a notch cut out in the front of it.

Your rifle photos has an M-16 hammer installed.

My early rifle has no chromed chamber or bore. Your rifle should have a chromed chamber. Much later rifles had chromed chambers and bores.

desertdweller
03-31-2011, 9:07 PM
Very nice! A real keeper.

The picture of the inside definitely has the extra aluminum to block the auto sear.

AJAX22
03-31-2011, 9:35 PM
My spidy sense is going off like an alarm....

That is not the original carrier... which means that things have been replaced internally....

something is not right.

freonr22
03-31-2011, 9:40 PM
gorgeous! Ballzy too :)

Ron-Solo
03-31-2011, 10:17 PM
The hammer, selector and disconector appear to be F/A parts. You can see the extra tail on the disconnector where it goes under the selector switch.

Someone has changed some parts.

Easily fixed, but dangerous ground the way it is.

redcliff
04-01-2011, 1:19 AM
I was quite familiar with SP1's back in the day (early70's) and never ran across one that came stock with full auto fcg's. Perhaps they're out there but I've never seen one.

goodlookin1
04-01-2011, 5:57 AM
Guys....

I want to make clear, VERY CLEAR, that this IS NOT my rifle. This rifle is located out of state and not owned by me or any family.


My spidy sense is going off like an alarm....

That is not the original carrier... which means that things have been replaced internally....

something is not right.

Hmm....well I suppose it could have been changed them out initially, but it definitely wasnt by the current owner: He's had it for a LOONNGG time sitting in a safe. Out of curiosity, what makes you think the carrier is not original? Looks like the SP1 to me. If it is different, it **could** also mean that the original carrier broke or something happened to it and had to be replaced; doesnt necessarily mean that this rifle didnt come this way....:confused:.....but it would be suspect.

Do you happen to know what year this was made by the serial #?


The owner is gonna flip out when I tell him that this thing is a felony waiting to happen. He'll probably want to be rid of the thing! :eek: He doesnt know the first thing about changing out a FCG.

AJAX22
04-01-2011, 6:09 AM
The carrier is from a later model, (note the cuts in the side for a forward assist)

It's a proper SP1 type carrier ground from an m16 bolt, but it's not correct for that upper.

The thing is, if it's early enough to have the m16 FCG then it shouldnt have a later model bolt carrier.

And since there is almost NO wear on the FCG, it's hard to explain away by 'it wore out'

I'm not saying it didn't happen (some of the early slick side carriers were chrome and some people didn't like the glint while they were out hunting etc. So it could have been swapped out for cosmetic reasons...

But it does set off my 'not quite right' detector.

You definitely can determine year by serial number, I'll look it up when I'm in front of a computer.

goodlookin1
04-01-2011, 6:35 AM
The carrier is from a later model, (note the cuts in the side for a forward assist)

It's a proper SP1 type carrier ground from an m16 bolt, but it's not correct for that upper.

The thing is, if it's early enough to have the m16 FCG then it shouldnt have a later model bolt carrier.

And since there is almost NO wear on the FCG, it's hard to explain away by 'it wore out'

I'm not saying it didn't happen (some of the early slick side carriers were chrome and some people didn't like the glint while they were out hunting etc. So it could have been swapped out for cosmetic reasons...

But it does set off my 'not quite right' detector.

You definitely can determine year by serial number, I'll look it up when I'm in front of a computer.

As for the carrier, are you sure you were looking at the right one? This is it.

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro8.jpg

Someone else posted the different carrier types....I'm not seeing the forward assist cuts on this carrier????


As for looking up the serial 3, thanks! I tried looking but couldnt find it.

AJAX22
04-01-2011, 6:55 AM
Looks like late 70's to early 80's....(my guess is 1979)

WAY to late to have a FA FCG

http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/ar15serial.html

AJAX22
04-01-2011, 7:03 AM
As for the carrier, are you sure you were looking at the right one? This is it.

Someone else posted the different carrier types....I'm not seeing the forward assist cuts on this carrier????


As for looking up the serial 3, thanks! I tried looking but couldnt find it.

The forward assist cuts are visible through the ejection port on the right hand side of the bolt carrier.

Look at the top carrier in this picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/variation%20guide/carriersright.jpg

AJAX22
04-01-2011, 7:05 AM
Here is what it should look like through the ejection port for a slick side gun:

http://img2.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/16/b2/coltarmalite/folder/6659/img_6659_26217693_2?1287761347

freonr22
04-01-2011, 7:14 AM
ajax, its asian writing

AJAX22
04-01-2011, 7:17 AM
guess you'll have to click the link

http://img2.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/16/b2/coltarmalite/folder/6659/img_6659_26217693_2?1287761347

goodlookin1
04-01-2011, 7:33 AM
Thanks AJAX, i'll pass the info along. I guess it does appear that someone put in the FA FCG way back when.....probably back when you didnt have to worry about stuff like this.

mej16489
04-01-2011, 8:19 AM
Are you absolutely sure about that? The Colt SP-1 Model AR-15 had its own SP-1 Bolt Carrier which was absolutely semi-auto. In other words, it came with an SP-1 AR-15 carrier, not an M-16 carrier, which is what is considered a "Full Auto Bolt Carrier." Here are the differences:

The one on top is an AR-15 bolt carrier (semi-auto)
The one in the middle is a Colt SP-1 bolt carrier (semi-auto)
The one on the bottom is an M-16 bolt carrier (full-auto) ***Notice the firing pin shroud on this one***

I suppose I can't say with absolute certainty that it came with the FA BCG - I'm quite familiar with the difference.

The original owner of the rifle was my father; I talked to him about it this morning and he swears the only thing ever changed was to accomodate the DIAS. My brother is nearly 10 years older then me so he'll have a much better memory of the change then I do...unfortunately I haven't heard back from him yet. I'll update when I do.

The original aquisition story is essentially the same as Flight762s bought new in the early 70s as essentially a nostalgia piece from my dad's time in Southeast Asia. My dad isn't, and never really has been a gunnie...he's owned maybe 5 guns in his entire life and he turns 73 in a couple weeks.

supersonic
04-01-2011, 8:38 AM
As for the carrier, are you sure you were looking at the right one? This is it.

http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro8.jpg

Someone else posted the different carrier types....I'm not seeing the forward assist cuts on this carrier????

I was the one who posted the 3 carriers. And as far as you not being able to see the forward assist notches, take another look at the first picture that you posted. Now look into the ejection port --


http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro1.jpg

.......Voila'!;)

goodlookin1
04-01-2011, 8:47 AM
I was the one who posted the 3 carriers. And as far as you not being able to see the forward assist notches, take another look at the first picture that you posted. Now look into the ejection port --


http://www.rcmill.com/ryan/guns/retro1.jpg

.......Voila'!;)



DOH!!! :chris:

Shoulda seen that.....thanks ;)

supersonic
04-01-2011, 8:58 AM
DOH!!! :chris:

Shoulda seen that.....thanks ;)

Hehe...Great rifle, by the way. Just have him (or you, or someone else) get those M-16 FCG parts outa' there ASAP & swap them with some nice, new AR-15 parts. Maybe a nicer trigger, like an ArmaLite 2-stage Tactical. Inexpensive and one of the best triggers out there for the money. :thumbsup:

supersonic
04-01-2011, 9:03 AM
Here it is:


http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10309000&ReturnUrl=categories2.aspx?Category=dfc0f777-5c39-4edf-bb6b-90009c5adc2c

And, when you buy the whole parts kit with it the price even gets BETTER (that's why they are frequently sold out;)) -

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=15209000&Category=fd0ae662-2eeb-4eb2-af45-d771eafd8fba

Scott Connors
04-01-2011, 10:11 AM
Except that's not even close to what actually happened....

Maybe so, but that the way that I heard it, and the defense Olofson made (unsuccessfully) at trial. There may well be other issues, I don't know, and I don't want to get off topic. I do know that it was not uncommon for SWG/Olympic Arms and Pac West AR kits to come with FA parts back in the 1980s (saw more than a few like that). That is why Olofson's story made sense to me.

B Strong
04-01-2011, 10:36 AM
After having owned many early Colt SP's and having had many more pass through my hands, I've never seen a factory rifle with a three-position selector.

I have seen M16 bolt carriers, and I have seen M16 hammers and disconnectors, but never a selector.

I'd bet money that the selector is an after purchase install.

The Director
04-01-2011, 11:13 AM
Here are is the comparison for your reference.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=92365&stc=1&d=1301685172

diginit
04-01-2011, 5:29 PM
Has anyone testfired this? Like... lashed it to a tire and pulled the trigger with a looong string? It looks to me like if you put a FA or shouded carrier in that, It would be slamfire city...IMO Someone has substituted some parts attempting to make an M-16 and changed the carrier when they took it out to shoot, Then changed it back for storage. Are there any wear marks on the firing pin where it could have caught the hammer? Looks like it in the pic. If the cotter pin in the carrier is bent, There's the proof.
Without the disconnector hookup or a FA sear when in #3. Your pin will catch on the hammer with that carrier. Change the FCG. NOT the carrier. With a shrouded carrier, This will go FA and could easily fire out of battery due to no timing control. If a round is slow to chamber. The hammer would hit the pin weather or not the rnd is chambered and the bolt locked. Then you can remove the bolt carrier from your ear.

FLIGHT762
04-02-2011, 10:03 AM
I've read that in the early SP1's, all you had to do was to place a hairpin (Bobby Pin) under the front of the disconnector and the rifle could slam fire. No parts had to be changed out. That's why later SP1's had the carrier modified with a cut out in the firing pin area of the carrier and the hammer had a notch cut out in the front of it.

With the hard primers in the military ammo, the rifle may fire or not. Using softer primers, the rifle will auto fire.
Doing this would be very risky as the gun slam fires(carrier rides the hammer), there could be a possibility of an out of battery kaboom.

VaderSpade
04-02-2011, 3:22 PM
I bought my first SP1 brand new in 1983 serial #115XXX it came with a semi auto LPK and bolt.
A year or so later I bought an older used SP1 serial #70XXX. It did have a FA LPK, but no sear or hole. I assumed the former owner (who was deceased) swapped out the parts, and I quickly switch them to semi auto parts.
This thread has me wondering if it did in fact come that way???