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green grunt
03-29-2011, 5:39 PM
Just won an auction on Gun Broker for a Bushmaster upper , complete upper only....
the seller said:

(We may have a problem.
I am being told that ARs are prohibited in CA and their parts as well. I need you to show me how they are OK to be imported in to the state and or that you are authorized to posses one in California.


Sorry about the mix-up but if it is illegal and I ship from Florida it is a federal deal.


Help me here. )


gave this seller a link to calguns and a short story that he is GTG on shipping a upper to kalif........where do people get there info on Kalif anyway....
what is the best way to show this seller on gunbroker that he is wrong...

a bit of a rant............this kind of "stuff" gets my BP up :(

hawk1
03-29-2011, 5:42 PM
Send the dipstick a link to one of Turners ads or any of the other .com companies that sell here.

stix213
03-29-2011, 5:42 PM
Point them to the AW guide, or one of the many AR picture threads.

The guy is an idiot anyway. It wouldn't be a federal deal even if it was a violation of CA state law.

Better yet, just point him to this thread after 5 more people tell him he needs to get with 2006. AR's have been back for a long while now.

And if the seller looks here: Hey buddy, that AR in my avatar is my CA legal AR that I keep here in California, from a lower I bought in Marin county of all places. I don't have an AW permit and don't need one. Stop dicking with us California buyers. When you do you are doing the legwork for the anti's.

TRICKSTER
03-29-2011, 5:47 PM
I would ask, told by who and what law are they quoting?
Laws don't tell you what you can do, only what you can't.

Had this type of thing happen once before on GB. I explained to the seller that the item was perfectly
legal in CA and that he was basing his objection on rumor, not law. I also explained that the purchase
on GB was a legal contract and that he would be violating that contract by refusing to ship a legally
purchased item. I didn't have any problems after that.

G60
03-29-2011, 5:49 PM
Flowchart. And the smith and wesson catalog with ca specific ar's

Nodda Duma
03-29-2011, 5:50 PM
Yeah point him to Calguns.

HowardW56
03-29-2011, 5:53 PM
Turners Spring flyer....



http://www.turners.com/engage/springflyer_2011.php

GettoPhilosopher
03-29-2011, 5:56 PM
I would ask, told by who and what law are they quoting?
Laws don't tell you what you can do, only what you can't.

Had this type of thing happen once before on GB. I explained to the seller that the item was perfectly
legal in CA and that he was basing his objection on rumor, not law. I also explained that the purchase
on GB was a legal contract and that he would be violating that contract by refusing to ship a legally
purchased item. I didn't have any problems after that.

That's the problem though. People want you to point them to PC 6666666 that says "ARs are totally ok in CA", but the law doesn't work that way.

I'm glad your gunbroker experience turned out alright. Mine took a week of chatting back and forth before the guy finally laid out his terms:
$2000 for the FS2000
$100 for installing the compliance kit he demanded I buy and ship to him
$50 shipping
Wasting OC Armory's time emailing between the three of us
He'd then separate the upper, take out the piston, ship the upper to me, the lower to OC Armory, keep the mag, and then he told me he'd keep the piston too

Reason given? "But if I ship you the piston you'll just put it in and make it semi again. I'd rather be uber-compliant". $2150 for a bolt action FS2000 with bullet button and no mag? Yeah, thanks for wasting a week of my time.

five.five-six
03-29-2011, 5:56 PM
Just won an auction on Gun Broker for a Bushmaster upper , complete upper only....
the seller said:

(We may have a problem.
I am being told that ARs are prohibited in CA and their parts as well. I need you to show me how they are OK to be imported in to the state and or that you are authorized to posses one in California.


Sorry about the mix-up but if it is illegal and I ship from Florida it is a federal deal.


Help me here. )


gave this seller a link to calguns and a short story that he is GTG on shipping a upper to kalif........where do people get there info on Kalif anyway....
what is the best way to show this seller on gunbroker that he is wrong...

a bit of a rant............this kind of "stuff" gets my BP up :(

I request the auction be canceled on the grounds that it is ill-advised to buy gun parts from retards

TRICKSTER
03-29-2011, 6:01 PM
That's the problem though. People want you to point them to PC 6666666 that says "ARs are totally ok in CA", but the law doesn't work that way.

I'm glad your gunbroker experience turned out alright. Mine took a week of chatting back and forth before the guy finally laid out his terms:
$2000 for the FS2000
$100 for installing the compliance kit he demanded I buy and ship to him
$50 shipping
Wasting OC Armory's time emailing between the three of us
He'd then separate the upper, take out the piston, ship the upper to me, the lower to OC Armory, keep the mag, and then he told me he'd keep the piston too

Reason given? "But if I ship you the piston you'll just put it in and make it semi again. I'd rather be uber-compliant". $2150 for a bolt action FS2000 with bullet button and no mag? Yeah, thanks for wasting a week of my time.

No way I would go through all that.
If the seller does not have "No California sales" or some other restriction posted on his auction, and refuses to honor the sale, and could not point out a law making the sale illegal, I would file a complaint with GB and give him a negative review.

Window_Seat
03-29-2011, 6:09 PM
I would say "thanks, but no thanks", and do like I did (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.htm), but I'm just biased. :laugh: Otherwise, I would show him the Flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf).

Erik.

green grunt
03-29-2011, 6:11 PM
just sent him the Turners flyer (Thanks for the link) , with a note to look at page 39 , Bushmaster upper on sale !
hope this does not turn into a "big" deal...........calm minds should prevail......

blakdawg
03-29-2011, 6:13 PM
Just won an auction on Gun Broker for a Bushmaster upper , complete upper only....
the seller said:

(We may have a problem.
[...]
what is the best way to show this seller on gunbroker that he is wrong...


Can you send him a link to a Bushmaster/DPMS/whatever site where they're willing to ship uppers to CA?

I would understand his paranoia a little better if he were selling a complete AR, but since it's just an upper, there's no issue.

Alternatively, do you have a friendly local FFL who he could ship to, who would then just hand it to you, the FFL understanding that there's no issue selling just an upper?

InGrAM
03-29-2011, 6:13 PM
OMG.... I hate Kalifornia. Everyone thinks we are so backwards out here. It is so sad IMO.

LazyBoy
03-29-2011, 6:21 PM
Hope you have better luck than me. I ran into the same problem and the guy wouldn't ship the upper to me. I even contacted the manufacture and they told him I could buy direct from them and they will ship to me in CA. Still no go. Good Luck

Bigtwin
03-29-2011, 6:37 PM
Well OP that sucks that the seller is uninformed about CA laws! I hope he researches enough to let ya have it.

To everybody else that replied...put yourself in the sellers shoes, never lived in CA, always found CA to have the worst laws, CA laws always changing, funny little device required on a mag release, different calibers restricted, evil features(wtf is that), ECT! I would like to think you get my point. To most folks from other states, CA may as well be a foriegn land with our laws!
I don't think that the seller is pandering to the anti's, I would say he is uneducated about CA laws(and why would he need to be), and maybe a bit paranoid about them(understandably so).
CA folks should try to educate those people, but not expect them to understand. It is like asking the folks in the UK to accept our laws we are used to, and saying well it is "ok", I have a website that says so! Think about it.

stix213
03-29-2011, 7:09 PM
Well OP that sucks that the seller is uninformed about CA laws! I hope he researches enough to let ya have it.

To everybody else that replied...put yourself in the sellers shoes, never lived in CA, always found CA to have the worst laws, CA laws always changing, funny little device required on a mag release, different calibers restricted, evil features(wtf is that), ECT! I would like to think you get my point. To most folks from other states, CA may as well be a foriegn land with our laws!
I don't think that the seller is pandering to the anti's, I would say he is uneducated about CA laws(and why would he need to be), and maybe a bit paranoid about them(understandably so).
CA folks should try to educate those people, but not expect them to understand. It is like asking the folks in the UK to accept our laws we are used to, and saying well it is "ok", I have a website that says so! Think about it.

He isn't pandering to the anti's, but he is doing exactly what the anti's would ask of him. If he just bothered to type "ar-15 california" into freaking google the first link gives him all the information he needs. If he can't be bothered to even go through that much effort then I have nothing but contempt.

OP, on 2nd thought just direct him to this link:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ar-15+california

Maestro Pistolero
03-29-2011, 7:37 PM
He doesn't know any better. At least he's asking for more info and verification.

Spyder
03-29-2011, 7:54 PM
Spelling California with a "K" or a "Commie" probably doesn't help much.

TRICKSTER
03-29-2011, 8:01 PM
Well OP that sucks that the seller is uninformed about CA laws! I hope he researches enough to let ya have it.

To everybody else that replied...put yourself in the sellers shoes, never lived in CA, always found CA to have the worst laws, CA laws always changing, funny little device required on a mag release, different calibers restricted, evil features(wtf is that), ECT! I would like to think you get my point. To most folks from other states, CA may as well be a foriegn land with our laws!
I don't think that the seller is pandering to the anti's, I would say he is uneducated about CA laws(and why would he need to be), and maybe a bit paranoid about them(understandably so).
CA folks should try to educate those people, but not expect them to understand. It is like asking the folks in the UK to accept our laws we are used to, and saying well it is "ok", I have a website that says so! Think about it.

If that's the case, then the seller should post "No California sales" on his ad.
If he didn't, then refusing to go through with the sale is a breach of contract and GB rules.


"Listing an item constitutes entering a binding legal agreement to sell the item to the highest bidder as determined by the rules of the auction. Items listed on this auction site may not be concurrently offered for sale on any other online auction site. Once an item is listed and has received a winning bid, the item may not be withdrawn from sale. Please consider carefully whether you want to place an item for auction".

snobord99
03-29-2011, 9:01 PM
If that's the case, then the seller should post "No California sales" on his ad.
If he didn't, then refusing to go through with the sale is a breach of contract and GB rules.


"Listing an item constitutes entering a binding legal agreement to sell the item to the highest bidder as determined by the rules of the auction. Items listed on this auction site may not be concurrently offered for sale on any other online auction site. Once an item is listed and has received a winning bid, the item may not be withdrawn from sale. Please consider carefully whether you want to place an item for auction".

Here's the thing, from OP's post, it seems to me that the guy didn't even consider the possibility that it would be illegal to ship to CA when he posted the ad so why would he put it in? Why should a guy in FL have to know CA laws when it took US a few years to figure out that ARs are still legal ourselves? It's not like a CA ban on EBRs is supposed to be big news in FL. Why don't you people get off your high horse and cut someone who is willing to get educated and deal with our f***ed up laws when they could make their lives easier by just saying "no sales to CA" some slack?

TRICKSTER
03-29-2011, 9:17 PM
Here's the thing, from OP's post, it seems to me that the guy didn't even consider the possibility that it would be illegal to ship to CA when he posted the ad so why would he put it in? Why should a guy in FL have to know CA laws when it took US a few years to figure out that ARs are still legal ourselves? It's not like a CA ban on EBRs is supposed to be big news in FL. Why don't you people get off your high horse and cut someone who is willing to get educated and deal with our f***ed up laws when they could make their lives easier by just saying "no sales to CA" some slack?

Exactly, the guy didn't consider the possibility that it would be illegal to ship to CA because it isn't illegal. Now he somehow got the idea in his mind that it is illegal so he is having second thoughts and has no proof to support his theory. If you are going to list something for sale, to quote Gunbroker's own rules "Once an item is listed and has received a winning bid, the item may not be withdrawn from sale. Please consider carefully whether you want to place an item for auction".

This has nothing to do with being on my "high horse", but everything to do with honoring a contract and your word.

tenpercentfirearms
03-29-2011, 9:19 PM
Seriously, this thread is a horrible example of the attitudes of CA gun owners. When your state's law are so screwed up as ours, you should not blame people from out of state for acting on the side of caution. References to idiots, morons, and retards are completely out of line.

There is no way in hell the OP can even remotely think about sending this thread to the guy thanks to some of you on here and your actions.

Either compound the problem or try to help out. Clearly we know where some of you stand.

Educate people, don't alienate.

You can have the OP e-mail me at sales@taftguns.com if you want. I would have no problem explaining the legality to him. You can also link him to my website. http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15

$P-Ritch$
03-29-2011, 9:55 PM
OMG.... I hate Kalifornia. Everyone thinks we are so backwards out here. It is so sad IMO.

It's because we ARE backwards out here in regards to gun laws compared to the majority of the country. Maybe not as bad as most people think, but most rumors are sprung up from a little truth. Then they are just exaggerated.

I honestly don't blame him. I had a hard time wrapping my head around gun laws here in CA when I first started shooting. I wouldn't be paying attention to this stuff if I lived in FL. Just be thankful that he is willing to work with you as opposed to half of the yahoos on GB that won't ship ANYTHING to us.

Here's to Calguns efforts to make this sort of nonsense a thing of the past!!!:cheers2:

green grunt
03-30-2011, 8:25 AM
just got a note from the seller saying : "Thank you for the reassurance and the link"
the link was to calguns so he can check out all the great info at this site , I think the seller was just "not in the know" as to Calif. laws...
heck....even I don't know all the Calif. laws........

GettoPhilosopher
03-30-2011, 9:10 AM
just got a note from the seller saying : "Thank you for the reassurance and the link"
the link was to calguns so he can check out all the great info at this site , I think the seller was just "not in the know" as to Calif. laws...
heck....even I don't know all the Calif. laws........

In this case, GREAT. It worked. The guy didn't know CA gun laws, and--like multiple people have pointed out--we couldn't have expected him to. No need to be a jerk *TO HIM*.

The problem is the guys who's reply is "Haha, CA sucks, no way I'm selling so much as a pistol grip to you!", or guys like mine who say "Hm, let me look at that. Well, maybe, if you pay me $200 more and I saw the rifle in half...". Those guys deserved to be called jerks.

I sent my guy the flowchart. He read it. He read the relevant penal code sections. He talked with OC Armory and had it confirmed step by step, clear as day ("If you ship like this it will be 100% legal for these reasons according to these laws"). And, at the end of the day, he decided he'd semi-permanently cripple the rifle because he wanted to be "uber compliant" (his words). That's messed up.

taperxz
03-30-2011, 9:31 AM
Seriously, this thread is a horrible example of the attitudes of CA gun owners. When your state's law are so screwed up as ours, you should not blame people from out of state for acting on the side of caution. References to idiots, morons, and retards are completely out of line.

There is no way in hell the OP can even remotely think about sending this thread to the guy thanks to some of you on here and your actions.

Either compound the problem or try to help out. Clearly we know where some of you stand.

Educate people, don't alienate.

You can have the OP e-mail me at sales@taftguns.com if you want. I would have no problem explaining the legality to him. You can also link him to my website. http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15

^^^THIS^^^

I am a Californian! I don't want to live anywhere else! For all the haters that probably migrated here, do us a favor and leave. You have a person on Gun Broker selling a part in Florida. He simply doesn't want to get in trouble over a few hundred dollar sale, and sees all over gunbroker the supposed problems in selling to a person in CA. California is not the center of the world here folks. The seller probably didn't even think a person from CA would buy it. We do live in a big country you know. Lets help to educate others.

Do you really think Gene, Brandon and all of CGF make any head way by dealing with our courts and laws in the same manner you just referenced the GB seller in Florida publicly????? C'mon, lets educate and not look like we are ALL nuts and entitled.

dantodd
03-30-2011, 9:54 AM
Seriously, this thread is a horrible example of the attitudes of CA gun owners. When your state's law are so screwed up as ours, you should not blame people from out of state for acting on the side of caution. References to idiots, morons, and retards are completely out of line.

There is no way in hell the OP can even remotely think about sending this thread to the guy thanks to some of you on here and your actions.

Either compound the problem or try to help out. Clearly we know where some of you stand.

Educate people, don't alienate.

You can have the OP e-mail me at sales@taftguns.com if you want. I would have no problem explaining the legality to him. You can also link him to my website. http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15

Great reply and very kind offer, especially since the OP is buying a potentially competing product. I drive regularly between the Bay Area and Orange County. I always think of you and your work here when I drive past the Taft exit on I-5. If I weren't always driving by in the middle of the night with 3 kids in the car I would make the detour to visit your place.

Wherryj
03-30-2011, 9:54 AM
Just won an auction on Gun Broker for a Bushmaster upper , complete upper only....
the seller said:

(We may have a problem.
I am being told that ARs are prohibited in CA and their parts as well. I need you to show me how they are OK to be imported in to the state and or that you are authorized to posses one in California.


Sorry about the mix-up but if it is illegal and I ship from Florida it is a federal deal.


Help me here. )


gave this seller a link to calguns and a short story that he is GTG on shipping a upper to kalif........where do people get there info on Kalif anyway....
what is the best way to show this seller on gunbroker that he is wrong...

a bit of a rant............this kind of "stuff" gets my BP up :(

Just a question, but aside from the "I'm not sure about CA" issues here...

The seller knows that ARs are legal FEDERALLY. He is uncertain whether they are illegal in CA. Then goes on to state "If it is illegal and I ship from Florida it is a federal deal."

IF it was illegal, wouldn't it be a CA STATE deal? LOL

Do you think that showing him the web page for the Franklin Armory COMPLETE "CA Edition" AR 15 would suffice? They are in Morgan Hill, so I think that they'd know CA law-or at least have been smashed over the head by CA law-by now.

Omil
03-30-2011, 10:04 AM
If that's the case, then the seller should post "No California sales" on his ad.
If he didn't, then refusing to go through with the sale is a breach of contract and GB rules.


"Listing an item constitutes entering a binding legal agreement to sell the item to the highest bidder as determined by the rules of the auction. Items listed on this auction site may not be concurrently offered for sale on any other online auction site. Once an item is listed and has received a winning bid, the item may not be withdrawn from sale. Please consider carefully whether you want to place an item for auction".

+1, if that's the case i would not do business with the seller in the first place.

paul0660
03-30-2011, 10:08 AM
"If it is illegal and I ship from Florida it is a federal deal."

If the guy is a FFL he is responsible for knowing and complying with every state's laws, and it is a Federal issue.

Not clear if it is a dealer or just a guy.

SupportGeek
03-30-2011, 12:02 PM
Exactly, the guy didn't consider the possibility that it would be illegal to ship to CA because it isn't illegal. Now he somehow got the idea in his mind that it is illegal so he is having second thoughts and has no proof to support his theory. If you are going to list something for sale, to quote Gunbroker's own rules "Once an item is listed and has received a winning bid, the item may not be withdrawn from sale. Please consider carefully whether you want to place an item for auction".

This has nothing to do with being on my "high horse", but everything to do with honoring a contract and your word.

Actually a contract cannot be legally binding if it involves perpetrating an illegal act, and it would allow him to exit said contract. So GB "rules" are trumped by contract law.
WE know it wasnt an illegal deal, he had a concern that it was, there is NOTHING wrong with educating him to the truth, and allowing him his peace of mind is there?
So yea, get off your high horse.

Stainned
03-30-2011, 12:34 PM
Probably works for The Sportsmansguide. They wont ship anything to you AR related.

green grunt
03-30-2011, 12:40 PM
just got a note from seller......GTG ! seller wrote "Received your money order today. Mail was late because of a bad storm so no time to ship today. I will ship in the am so no worries.


Thank you for your patience"

guess the seller just wanted to be safe and not sorry.....
got a:
New Bushmaster Dissipater Upper 16" H-Bar complete , no evil BL or threaded barrel :rolleyes:, its going on a MM grip lower with a A1 stock...GTG for my pre-ban mags....oh boy oh boy !
Thanks for the input/info and links..I do belive it helped this seller and will help others in the future.........

Semper Fi.

MultiCaliber
03-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Glad it worked out for you. On GB I have always just used the "ask seller a question" button before I bid on -anything-. Even ammo. Some people are morons or paranoid or both. While on principal, bothers the heck out of me to have to do that, I'd rather hear that the guy's a paranoid moron before I agree to pay him my hard earned money for something he's afraid to sell me. Unless their auction page already leaves no doubt that he will ship what he's selling to you w/o any issue, check first. Almost everybody gets back to you within a day. Just my $.02 for anyone else planning on using Gunbroker.

Uxi
03-30-2011, 12:49 PM
I don't blame that seller for being uncertain, I blame Sacramento's retarded laws and the complicity of most of the political left in this state.

I've had good experiences with several different sellers with out of state sellers on gunbroker in the various inquiries. The biggest obstacle so far was in getting one seller to disassemble an included 30-round mag as a "rebuild kit" but not anything close to being a deal breaker.

TRICKSTER
03-30-2011, 1:01 PM
Actually a contract cannot be legally binding if it involves perpetrating an illegal act, and it would allow him to exit said contract. So GB "rules" are trumped by contract law.
WE know it wasnt an illegal deal, he had a concern that it was, there is NOTHING wrong with educating him to the truth, and allowing him his peace of mind is there?
So yea, get off your high horse.

The deal went through so it is no longer an issue for the OP.
Buy the way, you are right, "there is NOTHING wrong with educating him with the truth" and I never stated that there was. There is something wrong with backing out of a contract with no legal reason and you yourself stated that the transaction wasn't illegal. If he "had a concern" that this was an illegal transaction, he should have at least been able to articulate how he came to that conclusion, he was the one changing the contract, not the OP. If believing that a person should keep their word and honor a contract is considered being on a high horse, then so be it,
I sit proudly on mine.

Uriah02
03-30-2011, 1:15 PM
How long did it take each of us to learn the ins and outs of CA AW law? I can empathize with non-PRK residents who don't want to bother learning the specific rules PRK subjects its residents to...

green grunt
03-30-2011, 1:28 PM
AMEN....................lets fix it in the next election !