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nlpro
03-29-2011, 2:57 PM
I just got a great deal on a Tristar Tactical Pump Shotgun nearly new for $120 otd . I am wondering if it would be legal to modify to fake magazine extension on it to add +2 to magazine capacity giving it 7 round instead of 5 .The shop owner told me that would be illegal to do if it was a semi auto but he was not sure if it was legal or not on a pump action.I did search but mostly found info pertaining to box mag fed siaga shotguns so any help would be greatly appreciated .

Thanks for any help :D

hcbr
03-29-2011, 3:01 PM
I smell FUD.....

chesterthehero
03-29-2011, 3:21 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/chetifall/guns/charts-1.png


the answer is at the top of every single page on calguns

nlpro
03-29-2011, 3:35 PM
I did not see anything it the guides about imported shotguns and 922r compliance ill have to check again . i forgot to say in my original post the guy was talking about 922r for imported shotguns . He said he called the atf a year ago to ask about 922r and pump shotguns the tristar cobra in particular and the atf said it is treating the tristar cobra shotguns as semi automatic because they have a spring assisted pump action . I just want to keep myself out of trouble

hcbr
03-29-2011, 6:24 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/chetifall/guns/charts-1.png


the answer is at the top of every single page on calguns

LMAO love the big red arrow! classic!

shark92651
03-29-2011, 6:44 PM
I just got a great deal on a Tristar Tactical Pump Shotgun nearly new for $120 otd . I am wondering if it would be legal to modify to fake magazine extension on it to add +2 to magazine capacity giving it 7 round instead of 5 .The shop owner told me that would be illegal to do if it was a semi auto but he was not sure if it was legal or not on a pump action.I did search but mostly found info pertaining to box mag fed siaga shotguns so any help would be greatly appreciated .

Thanks for any help :D

There is a good FAQ about this topic here:

http://freedomfightertactical.com/922r-faq/

It is specifically written for the Benelli M4 shotgun so the actual part count may be different for the shotgun you are dealing with. You should probably write a letter to the ATF to ask for clarification.

chesterthehero
03-29-2011, 7:15 PM
LMAO love the big red arrow! classic!

i had no idea where those charts were for the longest time... feel free to use the image as needed

Mssr. Eleganté
03-29-2011, 7:38 PM
922(r) applies to shotguns of any action type and semi-auto rifles. Many people think it only applies to semi-auto shotguns and semi-auto rifles, but they are incorrect.

Quiet
03-29-2011, 7:38 PM
There are no CA assault weapons laws that limits the ammo capacity of a shotgun.

But, the CA large capacity magazine laws limits the ammo capacity of shotguns.
As long as you do not manufacture a large capacity (11+ round) magazine, it is CA legal.

Federal laws limits the ammo capacity of imported shotguns.
If you increase the ammo capacity of an imported shotgun to 6+ rounds, then you will need to comply with the Fed 922r parts requirements.

Extending the ammo capacity of a pump-action shotgun from 5 rounds to 7 is legal in CA.
You can not extend the ammo capacity to greater than 10 rounds, because that would be manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

NDFMF
03-29-2011, 9:09 PM
There are no CA assault weapons laws that limits the ammo capacity of a shotgun.

But, the CA large capacity magazine laws limits the ammo capacity of shotguns.
As long as you do not manufacture a large capacity (11+ round) magazine, it is CA legal.

Federal laws limits the ammo capacity of imported shotguns.
If you increase the ammo capacity of an imported shotgun to 6+ rounds, then you will need to comply with the Fed 922r parts requirements.

Extending the ammo capacity of a pump-action shotgun from 5 rounds to 7 is legal in CA.
You can not extend the ammo capacity to greater than 10 rounds, because that would be manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

Incorrect. The large capacity magazine laws do not apply to tubular magazines. You can make a tubular magazine as high capacity as you want. Good luck holding it up if it gets too long though. (TWSS?)

ke6guj
03-29-2011, 9:34 PM
Incorrect. The large capacity magazine laws do not apply to tubular magazines. You can make a tubular magazine as high capacity as you want. Good luck holding it up if it gets too long though. (TWSS?)

incorrect. the large capacity magazine laws do apply to all magazines, including some tubular magazines. The only tubular magazine exempt from the law are the following:

12020(c)(25)
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

tubular magazines for pump-action, bolt-action, and semi-auto firearms are included in the ban unless they are .22 caliber. So, a pump-shotgun with a tubular magazine over 10 rounds would be a larege capacity magazine. If you installed the tube to go over 10 rounds on a shotgun, you manufactureed a large-cap mag.

repubconserv
03-29-2011, 9:42 PM
incorrect. the large capacity magazine laws do apply to all magazines, including some tubular magazines. The only tubular magazine exempt from the law are the following:

12020(c)(25)
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

tubular magazines for pump-action, bolt-action, and semi-auto firearms are included in the ban unless they are .22 caliber. So, a pump-shotgun with a tubular magazine over 10 rounds would be a larege capacity magazine. If you installed the tube to go over 10 rounds on a shotgun, you manufactureed a large-cap mag.

true, but when you get into tubular shotgun magazines, the "capacity" gets murky because of the variety of shell sizes. unless there is a "standard" shell size I am unaware of (am I?) that law makers use to determine tubular shotgun capacity

NDFMF
03-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Aren't lever-action and pump the same thing in the eyes of the law? A pump is a lever, it just moves in a different direction.

Plus, as was mentioned in the post above, varying shell sizes could render almost any mag tube to be a "large capacity ammunition feeding device," like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=162922

You could probably cram 11 of those into most shotguns that will take 7 or 8 2-3/4" shells.

BC9696
03-29-2011, 10:37 PM
Legal is a relative term in CA...you can be perfectly legal with it configured one way for shooting clay pigeons and then be completely illegal in the fileld hunting, predators or varmints.

NDFMF
03-29-2011, 10:39 PM
You could probably cram 11 of those into most shotguns that will take 7 or 8 2-3/4" shells.

In fact, I just did the math because I was bored:

2.75" x 7 shells = 19.25"

1.75" x 11 shells = 19.25"

SparrowHanger
03-30-2011, 9:55 AM
incorrect. the large capacity magazine laws do apply to all magazines, including some tubular magazines. The only tubular magazine exempt from the law are the following:

12020(c)(25)
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

tubular magazines for pump-action, bolt-action, and semi-auto firearms are included in the ban unless they are .22 caliber. So, a pump-shotgun with a tubular magazine over 10 rounds would be a larege capacity magazine. If you installed the tube to go over 10 rounds on a shotgun, you manufactureed a large-cap mag.

+1 that

Quiet
03-30-2011, 7:21 PM
Aren't lever-action and pump the same thing in the eyes of the law? A pump is a lever, it just moves in a different direction.

Plus, as was mentioned in the post above, varying shell sizes could render almost any mag tube to be a "large capacity ammunition feeding device," like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=162922

You could probably cram 11 of those into most shotguns that will take 7 or 8 2-3/4" shells.

CA DOJ BOF views lever-action and pump-action as different.

AFAIK... CA DOJ BOF determines ammo capacity for shotguns using the same length of shell that the manufacture uses to determine ammo capacity.
So, if a manufacture lists round capacity with 2.75" shells, then it's measured using 2.75" shells.

repubconserv
03-30-2011, 8:05 PM
AFAIK... CA DOJ BOF determines ammo capacity for shotguns using the same length of shell that the manufacture uses to determine ammo capacity.
So, if a manufacture lists round capacity with 2.75" shells, then it's measured using 2.75" shells.

That makes sense, thanks for the info

Onlyincali
03-31-2011, 6:48 AM
So if you place 12 short shells in a gun "designed" for xxxx size, doesn't that mean you just "assembled" a large capacity magazine?

repubconserv
03-31-2011, 10:40 AM
So if you place 12 short shells in a gun "designed" for xxxx size, doesn't that mean you just "assembled" a large capacity magazine?

As I now understand it, no. First off you wouldn't be assembling the hi cap mag (which it isn't a hi cap mag), you would be loading a standard XXXX mag with shorter shells

If the manufacturer measured the mag capacity by 2.75" shells, then if you extended the mag to fit more than 10 2.75" shells you manufactured hicap mag. Any shell size under 2.75 doesn't matter.

Wherryj
03-31-2011, 11:13 AM
That makes sense, thanks for the info

Please make a note of this instance. This is the ONE noted case where CA law actually makes sense.

Killawhale415
03-31-2011, 12:24 PM
How and why do these fools get their FFLs

Yugo
03-31-2011, 12:36 PM
Aren't lever-action and pump the same thing in the eyes of the law? A pump is a lever, it just moves in a different direction.

Plus, as was mentioned in the post above, varying shell sizes could render almost any mag tube to be a "large capacity ammunition feeding device," like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=162922

You could probably cram 11 of those into most shotguns that will take 7 or 8 2-3/4" shells.

awsome....I have a 1300 defender and thats what they recommend. Thanks for the link just ordered 2boxes.

NDFMF
03-31-2011, 1:46 PM
CA DOJ BOF views lever-action and pump-action as different.

AFAIK... CA DOJ BOF determines ammo capacity for shotguns using the same length of shell that the manufacture uses to determine ammo capacity.
So, if a manufacture lists round capacity with 2.75" shells, then it's measured using 2.75" shells.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. Still, the OP's FFL gave him incorrect information, as a +2 magazine extension on a standard shotgun, semi-auto or pump, would not be illegal.

awsome....I have a 1300 defender and thats what they recommend. Thanks for the link just ordered 2boxes.

No problem. Hope they work out for you! I've read some reviews that would make me nervous.

How and why do these fools get their FFLs

Anybody can be an FFL provided your local gov't will allow it. But, can you blame FFLs for being wary of our ridiculous and convoluted laws? A lot of out of state FFLs won't even do business with Californians because our laws are so screwed up and hard to understand.

Also, for every FFL out there who doesn't understand a particular law, there are usually at least one or two more who get it and are willing to help. At my shop, if you can show me how something is legal based on our laws, I am happy to help with the transaction. Plus, I always like learning new things.

Yugo
03-31-2011, 6:06 PM
I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. Still, the OP's FFL gave him incorrect information, as a +2 magazine extension on a standard shotgun, semi-auto or pump, would not be illegal.



No problem. Hope they work out for you! I've read some reviews that would make me nervous.



Anybody can be an FFL provided your local gov't will allow it. But, can you blame FFLs for being wary of our ridiculous and convoluted laws? A lot of out of state FFLs won't even do business with Californians because our laws are so screwed up and hard to understand.


Also, for every FFL out there who doesn't understand a particular law, there are usually at least one or two more who get it and are willing to help. At my shop, if you can show me how something is legal based on our laws, I am happy to help with the transaction. Plus, I always like learning new things.
im all ears...bought them for the range to test them out.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-31-2011, 6:25 PM
How and why do these fools get their FFLs

Why do you think the FFL is a fool? He was 100% correct in this case.

...Still, the OP's FFL gave him incorrect information, as a +2 magazine extension on a standard shotgun, semi-auto or pump, would not be illegal...

The OP's FFL gave him 100% correct information. The FFL told him that extending the magazine of an imported shotgun beyond 5 round capacity would trigger a Federal 922(r) violation.

chesterthehero
03-31-2011, 7:03 PM
awsome....I have a 1300 defender and thats what they recommend. Thanks for the link just ordered 2boxes.

fyi the 1300 eats them like friggin canday (aka no feeding issues at all) just be sure to put some power behind the pump.. if you do it gently/slowly you may have feeding issues.. i had a few hangups when using slugs.. the shot fed flawlessly as long as i did it quickly..

NDFMF
03-31-2011, 10:30 PM
The OP's FFL gave him 100% correct information. The FFL told him that extending the magazine of an imported shotgun beyond 5 round capacity would trigger a Federal 922(r) violation.

This is still incorrect. As has been outlined in this thread, it's perfectly legal to do as long as the increased magazine capacity is 10 or less. However, as you point out, 922(r) does add the stipulation that he must have no more than 10 imported parts on the shotgun if he is going to increase the magazine capacity and take it out of a "sporting configuration."

What's with all the 10's in gun laws? It's like legislators picked some arbitrary number and went with it for everything. Or maybe that's as high as any of them can count.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-31-2011, 11:21 PM
...Still, the OP's FFL gave him incorrect information, as a +2 magazine extension on a standard shotgun, semi-auto or pump, would not be illegal...

The FFL was not giving him information about a "standard" shotgun. The FFL was giving him information about an imported shotgun.

...i forgot to say in my original post the guy was talking about 922r for imported shotguns...

The FFL was correct. Just because the FFL neglected to tell the guy about a workaround where he could first turn the shotgun into an "unimported" shotgun by replacing some of the original parts with U.S. made parts and then add the magazine extension doesn't mean the FFL was incorrect about the legality of increasing an imported shotgun's magazine past 5 rounds.

If somebody asks a gun shop owner, "Hey, can I add a +2 extension to this imported Tristar Tactical Pump shotgun?" a correct answer is "No, that would be a Federal 922(r) violation." It's may not be the only answer he could have given, it may not be the best answer he could have given, but it is a correct answer. It's not FUD. It's not foolish.