PDA

View Full Version : Am I backwards or is my scope upside down?


707electrician
03-27-2011, 12:19 PM
Went to the range today to sight in my new Vortex Viper and it seems like my adjustments are way off from what they should be.

I zero'd it at 100 yards with a 20 MOA base and I only have 55 clicks (1/4" clicks) left in the up direction (bullet impact) while I have 181 clicks in the down direction.

Am I thinking backwards or is my scope defective?

Its also not even close to centered left to right.

toby
03-27-2011, 12:30 PM
You may have your scope 180 degrees off.. ie.. twisted, knobs should be top and right, not top and left? check that out.

707electrician
03-27-2011, 12:32 PM
You may have your scope 180 degrees off.. ie.. twisted, knobs should be top and right, not top and left? check that out.

:D My scope is mounted correctly

toby
03-27-2011, 12:33 PM
Knew it was, just throwing things out....:D

707electrician
03-27-2011, 12:35 PM
I just checked the windage dial and it is zero'd with 185 clicks available to the left and 41 to the right

CSACANNONEER
03-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Is your 20moa rail bassackwards?

Maybe you have one of those rare SWOWWIS scopes. I remember one advertised on gunbroker a while back.

Spetsnazos
03-27-2011, 12:39 PM
sub'd

interested to see the comments

707electrician
03-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Is your 20moa rail bassackwards?

Maybe you have one of those rare SWOWWIS scopes. I remember one advertised on gunbroker a while back.

Rail is on correctly

CSACANNONEER
03-27-2011, 12:48 PM
When you say "the up dirrection" do you mean the dirrection that your cross hairs move in?

707electrician
03-27-2011, 12:50 PM
When you say "the up dirrection" do you mean the dirrection that your cross hairs move in?

No, up as in bullet impact, so crosshairs move down

kel-tec-innovations
03-27-2011, 12:55 PM
Send it back for Warranty ?

kel-tec-innovations
03-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Does the shots go all over the place or the shots are atleast consistent even though it doesn't hit where the cross hair points?

707electrician
03-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Send it back for Warranty ?

Looks like that is what I will be doing. It sucks though because I was planning on heading out to sac valley on the 10th for the 600 yard match

CSACANNONEER
03-27-2011, 12:58 PM
No, up as in bullet impact, so crosshairs move down

Just hoping you didn't understand that. It would have been easier than trying to figure out what's going on. Anyway, is this a new piece of glass? It could be bent or defective. Have you tried to mount another tube in the same rings? It could be the way your barrel mounts to your receiver? You may need to shim your rail a bit.

707electrician
03-27-2011, 1:06 PM
Just hoping you didn't understand that. It would have been easier than trying to figure out what's going on. Anyway, is this a new piece of glass? It could be bent or defective. Have you tried to mount another tube in the same rings? It could be the way your barrel mounts to your receiver? You may need to shim your rail a bit.

Brand new scope. Haven't tried mounting anything else with these rings/base but I had no issues with my bushnell on the 0MOA base

bruce_ventura
03-27-2011, 1:37 PM
After analyzIng all the information you provided, I figured out what's wrong. You must be shooting with the rifle sideways, gangsta style. Turn the rifle 90 degrees, so the scope is on top, and you should be good to go!

CSACANNONEER
03-27-2011, 1:46 PM
After analyzIng all the information you provided, I figured out what's wrong. You must be shooting with the rifle sideways, gangsta style. Turn the rifle 90 degrees, so the scope is on top, and you should be good to go!

Wow, it took someone who designs rifle scopes for a living to come to that comclusion.

707electrician
03-27-2011, 2:04 PM
After analyzIng all the information you provided, I figured out what's wrong. You must be shooting with the rifle sideways, gangsta style. Turn the rifle 90 degrees, so the scope is on top, and you should be good to go!

Wait, that isn't how you're supposed to do it:confused:

jtv3062
03-27-2011, 2:12 PM
Have you checked to see if you need to bed the scope mount?

707electrician
03-27-2011, 2:15 PM
I have not

jtv3062
03-27-2011, 2:28 PM
The why and process link. http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11315

707electrician
03-27-2011, 2:30 PM
Do you think that the base not being bedded would cause this much of a problem?

jtv3062
03-27-2011, 2:36 PM
I couldn't get a 100 yard zero with my rifle. I read about bedding the scope mount and thought about the problem with my rifle. Their was a huge gap under the rear mounting which caused the bullets to impact 10 12 high with the scope topped out. Bedding the rear eliminated the problem.

jtv3062
03-27-2011, 2:42 PM
Also sounds like you may need a 0 moa base. I'm no expert, only giving you ideas.

707electrician
03-27-2011, 2:49 PM
Also sounds like you may need a 0 moa base. I'm no expert, only giving you ideas.

Using a 0MOA base will only make it worse. I will have to dial the bullet impact up more and that will be near bottoming it out

707electrician
03-27-2011, 5:51 PM
The rear of the base could use some bedding but Im not convinced that it is what is causing the problem. With a 20 MOA base and a 100 yard zero my crosshairs should be toward the top of their adjustment, not the bottom. Its like my adjustment numbers are backwards.

Im also thinking it is an issue with the scope because my windage is not even close to centered

707electrician
03-27-2011, 7:04 PM
Over-exaggerated illustration:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/bkelly/untitled-8.jpg

bruce_ventura
03-28-2011, 9:23 PM
With this additional information, I've changed my diagnosis:
You're left-eye dominant shooting the rifle right-handed (or vica-versa), and you're wearing a neck-brace!

ubet
03-29-2011, 8:17 PM
Ok, what base and rings do you have?

Are your "clicks" moa, mil, or iphy?

Did you tighten your rings/base with a torque wrench, or did you guesstimate?

Is this a one piece or two piece base?

Is this your first long gun?

ubet
03-29-2011, 8:19 PM
Do you think that the base not being bedded would cause this much of a problem?

NO!!!!!

707electrician
03-29-2011, 8:28 PM
With this additional information, I've changed my diagnosis:
You're left-eye dominant shooting the rifle right-handed (or vica-versa), and you're wearing a neck-brace!

I feel like I should be wearing a neck brace, but no:D

707electrician
03-29-2011, 8:33 PM
Ok, what base and rings do you have?

Are your "clicks" moa, mil, or iphy?

Did you tighten your rings/base with a torque wrench, or did you guesstimate?

Is this a one piece or two piece base?

Is this your first long gun?

EGW 20MOA 1-piece base, weaver 6-hole tactical low rings

MOA clicks

My elbow is my torque wrench, duh:D (I haven't gotten an in-lb troque wrench yet)

This is my second long gun, first bolt rifle, but this is the second scope that has been on this one. I started with a cheap leapers scope on my AR that actually did the same thing, but it was so bad that I ran out of adjustment before I was even on paper so I upgraded to a bushnell scope which got transferred to the R700 when I got it. The bushnell was mounted on the R700 with the same style rings and a 0MOA 1-piece base (unknown brand) and didn't have any issues (was actually very close to zero when I put it on) then I bought this scope and gave my dad the bushnell.

bruce_ventura
03-29-2011, 9:24 PM
Wow. This thread hit a dead end. I thought I could hang back, make a few wisecracks and let others do the work...

OK. Looks like you changed two things at once. You need to find out if the problem is the scope our your rifle/scope base. I recommend you remove the scope and reset the reticle position to the true mechanical center. You do that by rotating scope on V-blocks while making reticle knob adjustments to get the crosshair in the center so that it stays in the center as the scope rotates, as opposed to rotating in a circle.

If you don't have a pair of V-blocks, you'll have to make one. I recommend you sacrifice a medium size plastic food storage container. Cut 90 degree Vs into opposite ends and cut away just enough of the side walls to allow the knobs to rotate completely without bumping into anything. Tape the container down onto a table and so you can look through the scope at something far away. Then center the reticle. Now rotate the both the windage and elevation knobs clockwise and count the number of MOA you can turn them before reaching the stops. Return the reticle to the true mechanical center. Now repeat that process in the counterclockwise direction. The true mechanical center of the reticle should be centered within the total adjustment range of the knobs. If it is off in either windage or elevation by more than 5 MOA, you should return the scope for repair/refund.

If the scope passes the last test, the problem is likely with the rifle/scope base. To confirm that, return the reticle position to the true mechanical center. Put the scope back on the rifle and tighten the rings screws. Then set the rifle on a rest, folded blanket, or whatever provides a stable platform. Draw a cross on a piece of paper and tape it to a fence or wall 20 feet away. Remove the bolt and look down the barrel at the cross. Carefully center the cross in the view down the bore. Then look through the scope at the same cross. For a 20 MOA base, the crosshair should be within about 0.5 inch of the object. If the reticle crosshair is more than 10 MOA left, right, above or below the object, the base is on crooked. You will need to correct that problem. If the problem is only in the windage direction, you could get some Weaver rings that have windage adjustments (Millet makes them).

Good luck.

707electrician
04-07-2011, 5:23 PM
Well I sent the scope off to Vortex and they ended up sending me a new one. Im not sure if they even looked at the old one since they turned it around in about two hours.

Well I am still having the same problem. I think it may be my EGW 20MOA base now though. I haven't been able to shoot it yet but aiming it at a target that is about 100 yards away using the eye-ball bore sighting method the scopes point of aim seems to be pretty darn close to the same between my 20MOA and 0MOA bases. Furthermore, when I remove the rear mount screws from the base and mount the scope I end up having to adjust the reticle approx 20MOA up to be on the target which is what it should be. So it looks like I need to bed/shim the rear of my base or send it back for a replacement

707electrician
04-07-2011, 5:40 PM
The reticle is also about 48MOA to the right of the target with either base

707electrician
04-09-2011, 3:31 PM
Im about ready to give up. I changed my base back to my 0MOA that was working just fine with my bushnell and I am still having issues.

707electrician
04-10-2011, 3:11 PM
Mounted my scope on my dads rifle and rifle and bore sighted the scope. He has an EGW 20 MOA base and the elevation on the scope is close to centered between the stops so when i put it on my 0MOA base it isn't even close and the windage is still way off on any of the bases. Mounting my rings right together I cannot see any indication that anything is off.

Bruce- I tried your v block idea and as far as I can tell the scope is the way it should be, however my v block setup wasn't the most stable

bruce_ventura
04-10-2011, 8:13 PM
There are other ways to make simple pair of v-blocks. A shoe box might also work. The one I made is very stable and precise - ball bearings, bore sight mount, etc.

Mounting the scope on your dad's rifle was a good idea. Almost everything you've said is consistent with the problem being the rifle. What is the rifle's history? I suspect either 1) the receiver is bent, 2) the base screw holes are not properly aligned to the receiver, or 3) the barrel is not mounted straight on the receiver.

Even a factory barrel can be installed crooked - I've seen it. This is the easiest problem to rule out. If your barrel is off more than 40 moa, it should be obvious.

If you don't already have one, either borrow or buy a 3 ft aluminum straight edge. Place it against the receiver on one side and measure the distance between the outside of the muzzle and the straight edge. Then repeat the process on the other side of the receiver. If the two measurements differ by more than .25 inches, then the rifle is the problem.

G-forceJunkie
04-10-2011, 9:59 PM
To figure out if your rings are machined wrong, swap the front one and the back one and then try that. Then turn both of the rings around and try that. If they are machined poorly, this will make it notacable. If you have to readjust more than a moa or so, your rings are junk. If its not the scope or mount, it may be the gun. Barrels get bent, installed crooked, etc.

707electrician
04-11-2011, 4:17 PM
I think I may be getting somewhere. I mounted my scope back up and looking at from the muzzle end it definitely does not look parallel with the bore.

I don't like where this is going

707electrician
04-11-2011, 4:35 PM
Another curious bit of evidence. When both scope rings are facing the same way (i.e screws facing to the right) the scope drops in with little resistance, however when I flip only one ring 180 so that the screws are facing opposing directions, there is a lot more resistance when dropping the scope into the rings.

Spetsnazos
04-11-2011, 6:36 PM
so did you resolve this issue ??

707electrician
04-11-2011, 7:04 PM
Still trying to figure it out. I guess I am going to have to buy some new rings tomorrow and see if that does anything

bjl333
04-11-2011, 7:44 PM
From all the post I've read, I think the rings might be doing you in.

fishnfst
04-12-2011, 5:12 AM
HOpefully it's the rings and not the rifle being drilled off center. You said you mounted another scope on the rifle and had the same issue? So you purchased the more expensive Vortex to replace the Leapers and it still has the same issue? You tried a 0moa base and the elevation got worse and windage stayed the same? SOunds like the scope mount holes are drilled off or your rings are bad.. Did you Lap the rings already?

707electrician
04-12-2011, 3:53 PM
Tried new rings, no change

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 5:30 PM
707electrician, I didn't see what kind of rifle you are running, what caliber, what load, or if it's a one piece mount or two piece mount. If it's a .223 Rem, I would start your zero at 35 yards, get it within an inch, or so, then go to 300 yards. If it doesn't print within a couple of clicks, you have some bad glass. It happens.

707electrician
04-12-2011, 5:34 PM
Remington 700 .308, one piece mount.

I tried something else today

I Mounted the 20 MOA base to take pictures and measured the gap at about .015".

Here it is:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/bkelly/IMG_4149.jpg

Then I mounted the scope on the rail like this and without the rear screws in the base the scope is on target with no windage adjustment from mechanical center but it only puts the elevation about 5 MOA low, not the whole 20 MOA. This leaves me with 92 clicks down and 140 up, which is a lot better but still not quite there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/bkelly/IMG_4146.jpg

pdugan6
04-12-2011, 5:36 PM
You may have your scope 180 degrees off.. ie.. twisted, knobs should be top and right, not top and left? check that out.

you mean 90%?

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 5:39 PM
707electrician, one more question. Is the rail a Picatinney or Weaver?, and same question for the rings. If they don't match, it will never zero. Is that a 2 knob scope? If so the windage knob is always on the right, elevation on top.

707electrician
04-12-2011, 5:41 PM
Picatinny rings and base

G-forceJunkie
04-12-2011, 5:43 PM
Looks like either the base, or your reciever is machined to the point that they are not compatable. I would try another base first, if that doesnt work, you can bed the base so that the gap is not there.

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 5:50 PM
you mean 90%? You mean 90 degrees.... It really looks to me like the scope is rotated to the left by 90 degrees, putting elevation on the left, and windage on top. Elevation is always on top, on 3 knob scopes, the illumination is on the left.

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 5:54 PM
which model is it?

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 6:08 PM
Elevation always has way more clicks, typically 4 or more times. There is hardly ever more than a few clicks for windage, but usually tens of clicks for elevation.

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 6:16 PM
Vortex 4x12, windage on the right side of the rifle.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/images/vortex-viper-4-12x40-scope-review-002.jpg

707electrician
04-12-2011, 6:23 PM
Elevation always has way more clicks, typically 4 or more times. There is hardly ever more than a few clicks for windage, but usually tens of clicks for elevation.

It has about the same amount of total clicks for windage and elevation. Around 230 or 57.5 MOA

707electrician
04-12-2011, 6:25 PM
you mean 90%? You mean 90 degrees.... It really looks to me like the scope is rotated to the left by 90 degrees, putting elevation on the left, and windage on top. Elevation is always on top, on 3 knob scopes, the illumination is on the left.

Its the 6.5-20x50. The knob you see on the left is the parallax focus adjustment

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 6:28 PM
Ok, got it, sounds like a jacked up scope.

http://longrangesupply.com/images/Vortex_VPR-M-06FP_1.jpg

707electrician
04-12-2011, 6:44 PM
Ok, got it, sounds like a jacked up scope.

http://longrangesupply.com/images/Vortex_VPR-M-06FP_1.jpg

That was my first guess so I sent the scope to vortex and they sent me back a brand new one and nothing changed. It looks like its just the action, I guess they are hand ground so having scope base mounting issues is common. My 0 MOA base must just be tweaked, explaining why it is sitting flush on the receiver. Im going to try bedding my 20 MOA base and see if that helps

Pthfndr
04-12-2011, 6:54 PM
Are you sure the base isn't on backwards?

707electrician
04-12-2011, 7:02 PM
Are you sure the base isn't on backwards?

200% positive. If I flipped it around it would make it way worse than it is now but that isn't possible anyway, the hole spacing is different for the front and rear

HighLander51
04-12-2011, 7:11 PM
707electrician, Sniping is not my gig, although I have shot sniper competitions over the years, where I thought nothing of spending 2k on a gun, or more, and at least 2k on glass. I just don't think a $400 scope is going to get you there. Hopefully some 600 yard shooters will chime in.

bruce_ventura
04-12-2011, 8:15 PM
"Hand ground" receiver? Really? I haven't heard that before about Rem 700 actions.

Any way, you're getting closer. I recommend that you carefully inspect the top of the receiver and the rail with a straight edge. One of them is not straight. If you're lucky, it's the rail, but I doubt it.

Is it too late to return the rifle?

707electrician
04-12-2011, 8:23 PM
Is it too late to return the rifle?

Id say so, I bought it used

707electrician
04-13-2011, 7:48 PM
Here is my plan

Im going to bed the rear first by putting the two screws in the front half and then wedging in my mountain dew shim like so

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/bkelly/IMG_4150.jpg

Then after that cures I will put in the rear two screws and the front most screw and epoxy where the shim was. This will get me about 18 MOA which far exceeds gov't work and is enough for me

707electrician
04-13-2011, 7:58 PM
"Hand ground" receiver? Really? I haven't heard that before about Rem 700 actions.

Any way, you're getting closer. I recommend that you carefully inspect the top of the receiver and the rail with a straight edge. One of them is not straight. If you're lucky, it's the rail, but I doubt it.

Is it too late to return the rifle?

From what I have been reading/have been told, these remington receivers are hand finished on a belt sander and scope base alignment is a common problem because of it. Im not sure if it is true or not but I am starting to believe it.

I can't use a straight edge on the top of the receiver because the front and rear halves are not on the same plane. The font is more round and the rear is lower, a much larger radius (much flatter)

I think what is happening is that the rear part of the receiver was ground uneven so that the left side is a light bit lower so between that and the gap between it and the base it is causing the rear of the base, when screwed down, to be pulled down and twisted to the left slightly, it turn throwing the front of the scope high and to the right.

707electrician
01-08-2012, 10:44 AM
This thread is old, but I am bringing it back up now that the issue has finally been resolved for those that were curious.

Marc Soulie over at Spartan Precision Rifles put the action in the mill and found the true center and then re-drilled all the scope base mount holes for perfect alignment. He over drilled them to accept a larger 8-32 screw and when he drilled out the hole that is furthest back on the action, the factory hole was so off center that the factory threads on one side of the hole still remained.

707electrician, Sniping is not my gig, although I have shot sniper competitions over the years, where I thought nothing of spending 2k on a gun, or more, and at least 2k on glass. I just don't think a $400 scope is going to get you there. Hopefully some 600 yard shooters will chime in.

While I wish I could afford a Nightforce or USO or Premier, I have had no issues using this scope out to 1000 yards