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View Full Version : (Someone, not ATF) FUD at another range....


rodeoflyer
03-26-2011, 3:30 PM
I've been shooting at A Place to Shoot for 20 years. This thread is not to knock them in any way. It is a great facility run by great people.


Today the range officer at A Place to Shoot placed a green dot sticker on the stock of my OLL AR - to let any potential ATF agents that showed up know that my rifle had been verified to have a bullet button and a 10 round magazine. I wasn't at the table at the time. My buddy ok'd it, as I had gone to take a leak.

The range officers were not rude or harsh in any way. It was clear they didn't like it anymore than I did.

I asked the range master why ATF would be meddling in a state law. He said that the ATF has been showing up there often since the Arizona incident. It was obvious without being said that we both disagreed with it.

This is just another example of us trying to have fun, them trying to run a business, and the ATF making life difficult for everyone.

This is just a heads up to let you guys know what to expect. Again, the staff were kind and courteous as always. They aren't the enemy.

-- title changed, see oaklander's post 3/30 --

Fate
03-26-2011, 3:41 PM
And if you refuse the green dot?

Rock6.3
03-26-2011, 4:01 PM
Was there anything special about the green dot, or is it something I can buy at a stationary store?

rodeoflyer
03-26-2011, 4:15 PM
And if you refuse the green dot?

I don't know. I don't care to shoot at Angeles. :o

Was there anything special about the green dot, or is it something I can buy at a stationary store?



http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt316/rodeoflyer/Sticker.jpg

beauregard
03-26-2011, 4:16 PM
I'm so glad our government is with us all the time to make sure we don't hurt ourselves.

bodger
03-26-2011, 4:19 PM
Last time I was at A Place To Shoot, when I checked in to pay the range fees I was asked what I would be shooting. I said AR15, and they asked if it was a RAW or BB equipped OLL with ten rounder.
That seemed odd to me because they had never asked before, now I think I understand why they asked.

Everyone who works at A Place To Shoot has always been polite and professional, and they were that day as well. I hope the ATF isn't giving them a hard time out there or looking for reasons to hassle these ranges to thwart our rights.

GOEX FFF
03-26-2011, 4:20 PM
I've never heard of the green dot sticker either, granted I haven't been to APTS since only a few times when it first opened, after the many years of what use to be a great open shooting area that was known as Dry Gulch and Texas Canyon..

So what if someone brings their RAW? Do they check reg papers and then they get a red sticker?
Is that APTS's own policy of "labling" people? Or ATF?

What's the purpose for it?
It almost sounds like that green sticker singles out BB folks easier for ATF to come and inspect if one is using an 11+ magazine in their BB'd AR.

While we're at it, let's slap colored stickers on everyone's cars to idenetify who might be who by if they look like they might use a seat belt or not. :rolleyes:

ElvenSoul
03-26-2011, 4:21 PM
But I want a Gold Star!

Rock6.3
03-26-2011, 4:25 PM
1/2" dot? Hard to measure onscreen without a reference...

vantec08
03-26-2011, 5:09 PM
Gonna buy some cards of green dots and paste all over car, backpack, holsters, lunchbag, forehead, and roll of T.P.

cdtx2001
03-26-2011, 5:11 PM
While we're at it, let's slap colored stickers on everyone's cars to idenetify who might be who by if they look like they might use a seat belt or not. :rolleyes:

After that, we can put special tattoos on felons so cops know who the bad guys are.

atomicwedgy
03-26-2011, 6:45 PM
anyone take an ar pistol to A place to shoot?

safewaysecurity
03-26-2011, 6:51 PM
USI leaves you alone no matter what you bring unless you shoot full auto or something

SkyStorm82
03-26-2011, 6:55 PM
What's USI?

TURBOELKY
03-26-2011, 6:55 PM
Gonna buy some cards of green dots and paste all over car, backpack, holsters, lunchbag, forehead, and roll of T.P.

This is a great idea.

Munk
03-26-2011, 7:10 PM
I would have been livid. I like my guns, and try to keep them clean. Someone putting a little piece of adhesive paper on it would have gotten a stern talking to. Especially if it was like your situation where they were handling your property without your permission while you were not there.

Also: Does the ATF even have the authority to issue an edict that a private enterprise must engage in these actions?

chaseface
03-26-2011, 7:18 PM
I dont normally go to ranges with a range masters because the last two I went to had 4 second wait between shots rule. But, out of the ones i've been to nobody has ever inspected my gun or even asked me what I was going to be shooting. I dont like getting the 3rd degree when I go out shooting, I shouldnt have to prove that what I own is legal

Jaxpire
03-26-2011, 7:19 PM
But I want a Gold Star!

Are you thinking this star?

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/multimedia/13483

Thats what all this reminds me of.

chaseface
03-26-2011, 7:19 PM
I thought that federal entities were only responsible for enforcing federal laws not state laws?

Librarian
03-26-2011, 7:20 PM
What's USI?

United Sportsmen in Concord.

LoneWolf1
03-26-2011, 7:23 PM
What's USI?

United Sportsmen (http://www.unitedsportsmen.com/) Range in Concord.

Edit: damn, Librarian beat me too it!

Fjold
03-26-2011, 7:34 PM
I thought that federal entities were only responsible for enforcing federal laws not state laws?

I was going to post this also.

DesertGunner
03-26-2011, 7:38 PM
Instead of a green circle how about a red octagon as a protest?

http://www.ccaps.net/newsletter/10-05/Lee_Fig2_BReEN.gif

Oceanbob
03-26-2011, 7:43 PM
Federal Government using privately employed people to seach and verify weapons for them.

Is the ATF so under-staffed to actually walk thru a Rifle Range on Saturday afternoon and start checking Rifles for evil features and bullet buttons?

What if they make honest Gun Owners angry..?...Do they want to cause trouble for a Range and their business.?

Once people get wind of this, they might not go shooting (spend money) at that range anymore.

Or do you think ATF has no intentions of walking around looking for GREEN DOTS but is using a RANGE EMPLOYEE to put the scare in honest shooters?

Gee, the sky is falling.

IntoForever
03-26-2011, 7:44 PM
I'd be pissed! Probably end up getting a bunch of those dots (let the range know it's nothing to do with them) and making them say F* you! I'd also post them on all my stuff.

MasterYong
03-26-2011, 8:00 PM
Other than it being unnecessary, I don't really understand the problem here. Bigger fish to fry, etc.

badicedog
03-26-2011, 8:16 PM
WOW, I've never had any problems at a place to shoot. Look like a bunch of crap.

G-forceJunkie
03-26-2011, 8:23 PM
The range is on leased National Forestry land...perhaps that gives them some authority. None the less, last month I saw the RO's quietly tell one shooter with a RAW to put it back in his car since he did not have a copy of the registration paper. "The ATF has been checking and hasseling people" was the reason.I thought that federal entities were only responsible for enforcing federal laws not state laws?

BKinzey
03-26-2011, 8:33 PM
The range is on leased National Forestry land...perhaps that gives them some authority. None the less, last month I saw the RO's quietly tell one shooter with a RAW to put it back in his car since he did not have a copy of the registration paper. "The ATF has been checking and hasseling people" was the reason.

Funny, if they were familiar with the RAW regulations they should have seen the section that says you don't have to carry the registration with the firearm.:(:mad:

Quser.619
03-26-2011, 8:39 PM
Is it me or does there seem to be a lot more of these curious situations appearing at ranges throughout the state?

d4v0s
03-26-2011, 8:45 PM
I am going to put a green star of david on my stock, see how the ATF Nazis like that one...

we arent so far away

killathrilla
03-26-2011, 8:51 PM
I wonder how much money this exciting and progressive new program costs the tax payers?

858casper858
03-26-2011, 8:56 PM
Last time I was at A Place To Shoot, when I checked in to pay the range fees I was asked what I would be shooting. I said AR15, and they asked if it was a RAW or BB equipped OLL with ten rounder.
That seemed odd to me because they had never asked before, now I think I understand why they asked.

Everyone who works at A Place To Shoot has always been polite and professional, and they were that day as well. I hope the ATF isn't giving them a hard time out there or looking for reasons to hassle these ranges to thwart our rights.

What about featureless and 30rd mags? :cool:

M1A Rifleman
03-26-2011, 9:59 PM
I feel safer already. :rolleyes:

Fate
03-26-2011, 10:00 PM
Guess I'll be finding another "place to shoot."

oaklander
03-26-2011, 10:03 PM
I think that's what the RSO's are *saying* - the truth is that the ATF doesn't care about "OLL" issues.

I can call the ATF field office in your region and simply ask them if this story is true. If it's true - and it's not likely - I can probably make them stop doing this, since it's really not something that the ATF needs to be doing, or even has authority to do.

I would have to check - but I am pretty sure that the ATF doesn't enforce state law.

ETA: I've found in my dealings with the ATF - that they are professional and knowledgeable. And therefore, IF this is happening (and I don't think it is) - it would not be too hard to make it stop - especially considering the public scrutiny that the ATF is under right now.

Please let me know which of these field offices is closest to Saugus, and I will call them on Monday:

http://www.atf.gov/field/losangeles/fo-california-south.html

If it turns out that the ATF is not doing this (and I think that's the case), then I will call the range, and find out why they are apparently spreading disinformation to their customers.

For ANYTHING like this - the best route is NOT to speculate, rather - simply make some calls and determine the truth.

GOEX FFF
03-26-2011, 10:12 PM
I think that's what the RSO's are *saying* - the truth is that the ATF doesn't care about "OLL" issues.

I can call the ATF field office in your region and simply ask them if this story is true. If it's true - and it's not likely - I can probably make them stop doing this, since it's really not something that the ATF needs to be doing, or even has authority to do.

I would have to check - but I am pretty sure that the ATF doesn't enforce state law.

ETA: I've found in my dealings with the ATF - that they are professional and knowledgeable. And therefore, IF this is happening (and I don't think it is) - it would not be too hard to make it stop - especially considering the public scrutiny that the ATF is under right now.

Please let me know which of these field offices is closest to Saugus, and I will call them on Monday:

http://www.atf.gov/field/losangeles/fo-california-south.html

If it turns out that the ATF is not doing this (and I think that's the case), then I will call the range, and find out why they are apparently spreading disinformation to their customers.

For ANYTHING like this - the best route is NOT to speculate, rather - simply make some calls and determine the truth.

:thumbsup:

I saw what you did and how skillfully you handled it with that university.
I say call, and give em hell....I mean...a piece of your mind. :D

753X0
03-26-2011, 10:14 PM
Isn't A Place to Shoot on Fed land? What is the nexus?

ETA: This appears at the bottom of the website...



Persons of any race, color, national origin, sex, age, religion, or with any handicapping condition are welcome to use and enjoy all facilities, programs, and services of the USDA. Discrimination in any form is strictly against agency policy, and should be reported to the Secretary of Agriculture, Washington, D.C. 20250.

mag360
03-26-2011, 10:16 PM
I like your initiative, more of us need to stand back, question what is happening, and make some calls.

oaklander
03-26-2011, 10:16 PM
Yes - agreed!

The issue here is that the ATF isn't really a problem in California (the CA DOJ is the problem). So, we like to be nice to them. . .

The range may simply have a new policy (which as a business, they are entitled to) - but they need to be clear on why they are doing it, etc. . .

Then potential gun owning customers can decide whether they want to demean themselves like this.

Both the ATF and the range are our "friends," so we what would do here is simply (and very politely) find out the truth - so that customers of the gun range (which by all reports, is a very nice range) can make their own decisions about continuing to patronize it.

:thumbsup:

I saw what you did and how skillfully you handled it with that university.
I say call, and give em hell....I mean...a piece of your mind. :D

oaklander
03-26-2011, 10:19 PM
I don't know - it's easier if they educate me. There may be a simple explanation - but I'm not liking the idea of these green dots, at all.

Isn't A Place to Shoot on Fed land? What is the nexus?

ETA: This appears at the bottom of the website...



Persons of any race, color, national origin, sex, age, religion, or with any handicapping condition are welcome to use and enjoy all facilities, programs, and services of the USDA. Discrimination in any form is strictly against agency policy, and should be reported to the Secretary of Agriculture, Washington, D.C. 20250.

Cokebottle
03-26-2011, 10:19 PM
Please let me know which of these field offices is closest to Saugus, and I will call them on Monday:

http://www.atf.gov/field/losangeles/fo-california-south.html


Van Nuys would be the closest.

oaklander
03-26-2011, 10:20 PM
Also agreed! The trick with ALL of this - is to NOT do anything that impacts other gun rights stuff. That's why in this case, I'm just going to "fact find." And let others make decisions about what, if anything, needs to be done to correct this.

I like your initiative, more of us need to stand back, question what is happening, and make some calls.

MontClaire
03-26-2011, 10:20 PM
You seem to be under an assumption that atf is out there by themselfes. They take orders and do what they're told by master wizards. They are the problem-not atf.

Cokebottle
03-26-2011, 10:24 PM
Isn't A Place to Shoot on Fed land? What is the nexus?
Still, BATFE is only concerned with Federal law. They'll be all over NFA issues if they suspect an AR pistol may be an SBR.

The one case where federal agents seem to commonly enforce state law is on BLM land where the Federal rangers are enforcing all laws (Fed, state, county, and local)... but AFAIK, prosecution is still handled by the local DA, not a federal prosecutor.

oaklander
03-26-2011, 10:36 PM
ATF "approves" trusts and issues tax stamps for AOW's and other things that are legal under CA law. They do this even though the DOJ would apparently prefer that you NOT have those items.

Again, the ATF does not care about OLLs - as long as those OLL's do not violate federal law.

LAWABIDINGCITIZEN
03-26-2011, 10:37 PM
If I put a red hammer and sickle sticker on my bolt action Mosin-Nagant will they leave me alone?
:43:

If they have enough time on their hands and funds available to snoop around ranges, then it must be time to "reallocate" some of their budget to other law enforcement agencies who will spend the money to fight crime instead.

oaklander
03-26-2011, 10:40 PM
Yet again - I do not think it's the ATF. I've never heard of them doing anything like this - they keep a low profile in California. BUT - if it is - then we will need to find out why they are wasting taxpayer money duplicating the efforts of local LE.

ALSO - at least in California - the ATF is kind of our friend. So let's be nice to them in this thread, at least for now.

If I put a red hammer and sickle sticker on my bolt action Mosin-Nagant will they leave me alone?
:43:

If they have enough time on their hands and funds available to snoop around ranges, then it must be time to "reallocate" some of their budget to other law enforcement agencies who will spend the money to fight crime instead.

oaklander
03-27-2011, 1:26 AM
Found this on the APTS site:

Military Assault Type Firearms

You are welcome to shoot your California compliant Military Assault Type Firearms at our Range. However, any firearms you bring to the range must be legal for you to do so.

If your firearm is California legal pre-ban, then bring a copy of your Assault Weapon registration / permit with you to the range. In this case you are also legally allowed to use your pre-ban greater than 10 round magazines.

If your firearm is California legal post-ban, then no permit is required. Make sure that you only utilize 10-round or less magazines with these firearms.

1) I'm not even sure what a "Military Assault Type Firearms" is. Is that code for semi-automatic firearms that are (a) "black," or (b) designed in Russia?

2) They seem to imply that standard capacity magazines are ONLY legal on registered AW's. As you all know, you can use ANY size magazine in ANY gun - the only exception is that "fixed magazine weapons" MUST use a magazine that can hold only 10 rounds or less.

3) By saying that you are "[y]ou are welcome to shoot" your California-compliant semi-automatic weapon, they are implying that these firearms are somehow different than other firearms. Again, this is simply not correct. A legal rifle is a legal rifle, no matter what color it is, or where it was designed.

falawful
03-27-2011, 1:42 AM
Ladies, please.

USFS is what patrols APTS, as the folks that run the range are USFS lessees.

APTS is stickering the gunz as an effort to say that the RO has looked over your (considering this crowd, likely suspicious) firearm and 'vouches' that it is legal, denoted with the green sticker.

They do this in effort to allow any USFS LEO to walk the line and quickly see what a qualified individual has OK'd. Think about that, this would keep that sasquatch ranger chick off your back and outta your life should she be there and see a green sticker.

One might consider this to be customer service...

That said, when at the rifle range, I would encourage each and every one of you to protest the blatant 'gun registration' scheme that APTS is undoubtedly blatantly promulgating. Throw every type of argument in the mix, from that they are agents of the UN, to ACORN proxies, to devil-worshippers, etc. Lay it on thick!

In particular, I would encourage all upstanding calgunners to bust the balls of the guy smoking the cigar or the guy wearing the thick glasses.

Just sayin'....

tonelar
03-27-2011, 2:25 AM
How dare they tell me to bring my AW reg info! Unheard of...

Shepherds_Hook_47
03-27-2011, 3:26 AM
yikes.... sounds like a mess and half over there.

2Bear
03-27-2011, 4:05 AM
RED DOTTED RIFLE

Has a nice ring to it...

Wrangler John
03-27-2011, 5:17 AM
Ladies, please.

USFS is what patrols APTS, as the folks that run the range are USFS lessees.

APTS is stickering the gunz as an effort to say that the RO has looked over your (considering this crowd, likely suspicious) firearm and 'vouches' that it is legal, denoted with the green sticker.

They do this in effort to allow any USFS LEO to walk the line and quickly see what a qualified individual has OK'd. Think about that, this would keep that sasquatch ranger chick off your back and outta your life should she be there and see a green sticker.

One might consider this to be customer service...

That said, when at the rifle range, I would encourage each and every one of you to protest the blatant 'gun registration' scheme that APTS is undoubtedly blatantly promulgating. Throw every type of argument in the mix, from that they are agents of the UN, to ACORN proxies, to devil-worshippers, etc. Lay it on thick!

In particular, I would encourage all upstanding calgunners to bust the balls of the guy smoking the cigar or the guy wearing the thick glasses.

Just sayin'....

You may be on to something here. USFS is becoming increasingly anti-gun and hunting, due to the chickification of the management ranks, and their "progressive" bosses. It's a cultural change going on in attitudes. I'm fighting against a management policy development where the local Indian tribe wants to take over an area and outlaw year around varmint and pig hunting so the noise of gunfire doesn't disturb their rituals. One elder said to me that he didn't want my gunfire to disturb him while he was contacting his ancestors. The local environmental group also claims that allowing "gun play" on federal land is dangerous, and disturbs the sacred quality of the land. So get ready, I hope there isn't any noise and complaints about gun play against APTS because that's next. You guys shouldn't be playing with noisy guns, you are a menace. :)

SkyStorm82
03-27-2011, 7:23 AM
Isn't there a member here that is a RO at that range? Someone who knows him should PM him this thread.*

I think the whole thing is silly....but isn't it kind of like going to the fair and getting your hand stamped after showing the stamper that you are 21 and old enough to drink alcohol?

oaklander
03-27-2011, 9:56 AM
I just got a message that APTS is NOT doing this anymore. Let's hope it stays that way.

Again, this was NOT ATF, or at least - it's NOT ATF until someone proves that it is.

In my personal opinion, it was simply a misguided policy, which appears to have been corrected.

IF people still have to do the "stickers" - as of today - please post a pic of your gun, at the range, with a sticker - in this thread. Please do not photograph other shooters, or range workers.

Just your gun, with a green sticker supplied by the range, at the range.

THEN - as a team - all of us will decide how to proceed in order to "fix" this apparent policy.

dreslinger
03-27-2011, 10:38 AM
I'm fighting against a management policy development where the local Indian tribe wants to take over an area and outlaw year around varmint and pig hunting so the noise of gunfire doesn't disturb their rituals. One elder said to me that he didn't want my gunfire to disturb him while he was contacting his ancestors.

Perhaps they should legalize silencers so we can shoot quietly! Also, his chanting and noisemaking is disturbing the animals I am hunting and it scares them away. Perhaps that elder and others should do it quietly so they don't infringe on my rights. Just a thought.

rodeoflyer
03-27-2011, 10:39 AM
Just for clarification - the policy changes as of today?

The pic in this thread is from yesterday.


Awesome action by the people here at Calguns, as always. :)

CSACANNONEER
03-27-2011, 10:42 AM
How dare they tell me to bring my AW reg info! Unheard of...

While not "unheard of", there is no legal requirement to carry it with you or keep it with the firearm.

oaklander
03-27-2011, 10:43 AM
I received a message that nobody at the range was doing the "stickers" - TODAY.

Again - let's hope they did the right thing, and that this will no longer be a problem.

And even though APTS *is* a private business, there is a "nexis with the fed" here, and that presents certain opportunities which I don't really want to get into.

Just for clarification - the policy changes as of today?

The pic in this thread is from yesterday.


Awesome action by the people here at Calguns, as always. :)

oaklander
03-27-2011, 10:53 AM
There's another thread in the LEO forum in which someone wants to "register" their pistols to make them "legal."

I am NOT liking the idea that guns are somehow "illegal until proven legal."

The truth is that all guns are legal. Period. The only exceptions would be (1) guns that are in violation of the NFA or other federal laws due to configuration, and/or (2) guns which are illegally configured under California law.

An otherwise "legal" gun is just a piece of metal, plastic and wood.

People need to STOP thinking of guns as having some sort of "evil powers" or things along those lines. It's not the way to even THINK about a legal and constitutionally protected right.

This sort of thinking needs to STOP and STOP NOW.

</rant off>

While not "unheard of", there is no legal requirement to carry it with you or keep it with the firearm.

nrakid88
03-27-2011, 10:57 AM
tagged, I will be back to this thread. May be the last reason I have to not go there anymore, besides not being able to shoot my own reactive targets, one shot per second, not being able to draw and fire from a holster.

nrakid88
03-27-2011, 11:03 AM
Oaklander, wouldn't an unregistered handgun be illegal, espescially for someone who is say 21 and was not old enough to buy them before the registration requirement.

ZombieTactics
03-27-2011, 11:06 AM
After that, we can put special tattoos on felons so cops know who the bad guys are.

Better yet ... let's put an mark on everyone's hand or forehead, which only shows up under ultraviolet light or something ... something like a barcode ... it could be linked to your bank account and personal/criminal records ... do away with money and credit cards altogether, duncha know? :eek:

nrakid88
03-27-2011, 11:09 AM
Better yet ... let's put an mark on everyone's hand or forehead, which only shows up under ultraviolet light or something ... something like a barcode ... it could be linked to your bank account and personal/criminal records ... do away with money and credit cards altogether, duncha know? :eek:

Better yet, you were born with that ID, in Japan ATM machines read the signature of the veins in your palm. Big Brother Is Coming.

Think of how many tools in this country have a car that is hooked up so that the police can shut down the engine. The enlightened may not be screwed, but the masses are.

rodeoflyer
03-27-2011, 11:14 AM
tagged, I will be back to this thread. May be the last reason I have to not go there anymore, besides not being able to shoot my own reactive targets, one shot per second, not being able to draw and fire from a holster.

Unfortunately, because of a small group of asshats out there - those rules exist at just about every range.

Cokebottle
03-27-2011, 12:22 PM
APTS is stickering the gunz as an effort to say that the RO has looked over your firearm and 'vouches' that it is legal, denoted with the green sticker.
That's not his responsibility. It is my personal property and he does not have the right to touch it.
If he feels that it is UNSAFE, he can request that I remove it from the range. If he feels that it is illegal, then likewise, he can request that I remove it from the range, or he can take a couple of seconds to watch me operate it and see that it is in fact equipped with a bullet button.
(considering this crowd, likely suspicious)
Not sure what to say to that other than I assume that you work for APTS.
In particular, I would encourage all upstanding calgunners to bust the balls of the guy smoking the cigar or the guy wearing the thick glasses.
Let me put it this way.
NO gun range employee will EVER place any kind of sticker or other attachment on any of my guns without permission.
Some of my guns have custom paint, some of my guns are valuable vintage guns, and I am not going to allow any sticker residue to be a point for collecting dirt and crap.

If ANY employee of a range that I am visiting EVER touches one of my guns without permission, that range is going to have a problem.

That is my personal property, not theirs.
If they ask politely if they can inspect my weapon, the answer will most likely be yes (but I will not allow them to put a sticker on it).

Cokebottle
03-27-2011, 12:23 PM
How dare they tell me to bring my AW reg info! Unheard of...
Agreed.
There is no legal requirement to carry AW reg information.

Librarian
03-27-2011, 12:24 PM
Oaklander, wouldn't an unregistered handgun be illegal, espescially for someone who is say 21 and was not old enough to buy them before the registration requirement.

It's been illegal for 18-19-20 to buy through an FFL since 1968.

Registration is not a requirement - it's an 'accident' that gets applied when a handgun is transferred through a CA FFL or when someone moves to CA and files the new resident form or when someone files the OPLAW paperwork for an intrafamilial transfer or an inheritance.

Lots of handguns in CA have not been transferred in those ways (or, transferred at all). A handgun that is not registered is legal, at least on that narrow point.

See the wiki - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration

bubbapug1
03-27-2011, 12:29 PM
I think the two best budget cuts would be the budgets of the DOJ and the ATF.

Cokebottle
03-27-2011, 12:31 PM
Oaklander, wouldn't an unregistered handgun be illegal, espescially for someone who is say 21 and was not old enough to buy them before the registration requirement.
Nope.

You can build your own handgun from an 80% frame, or even a chunk of aluminum, and it does not have to be registered.

Now, a serialized, commercial gun? Generally, yes. It must be declared (registered) upon importation if brought in by a new resident, or it must be registered at the time of transfer, which, if you are under 38 years old, would include any gun that could have been legally transferred to you.

But there are still circumstances... You inherited a footlocker years ago and finally got around to going through Grandpa's stuff and happened to find a couple of handguns... They are yours.

But there is no law that states that possession of an unregistered handgun is a crime unless combined with other specific crimes (carrying concealed/loaded, used in a crime, etc...)

CSACANNONEER
03-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Oaklander, wouldn't an unregistered handgun be illegal, espescially for someone who is say 21 and was not old enough to buy them before the registration requirement.

Not always. One can legally manufacture (for their own personal use) a handgun today and not register it or even put a SN on it. One can still borrow an unregistered handgun for 30 days or less. One could have just moved here with an unregistered handgun and not filled out the personal importer form yet. There are probably a few more ways that a 21 year old could legally have an unregistered handgun in CA.

IrishPirate
03-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Sounds to me like APTS is trying to keep their patrons from being harassed by pre checking guns so that IF ATF or other LEO entity shows up, they can tell them that anyone with a green sticker doesn't need to be bothered because they've already been cleared. Sounds to me like they are going above and beyond to make sure we don't get harrassed. Not sure why so many people are bashing them or saying they are working for the Gov't. Sounds more like they are trying to protect us from big brother. Perhaps a different system would be better....like a green flag on a stand by the bench or something less "invasive".

Pete Albrecht
03-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Better yet ... let's put an mark on everyone's hand or forehead, which only shows up under ultraviolet light or something ... something like a barcode ... it could be linked to your bank account and personal/criminal records ... do away with money and credit cards altogether, duncha know? :eek:

Nah. Tattoo number on arm.

Haven't you heard? Tattoos are "in." With the right PR campaign, you'll have 'em lining up to get their free tattoo.

falawful
03-27-2011, 12:53 PM
Some of you need to take a chill pill. Suffice to say, APTS is not the enemy. Personally, I think that the sticker biz that APTS is doing can benefit their customers (i.e. ME).

As it was explained to me, APTS is under a clause in their USFS lease as to not allowing illegal activities on USFS land, that's their interest in seeing that illegal guns are not at the range. The CUSTOMER's interest is served by what they're doing as you don't get hassled by USFS law enforcement when they see the green dot. APTS having their customers hauled off to the graybar hotel, is probably not so good for them as well as the customer.

As for getting your feelings hurt about sticker residue impinging on the righteous glory of your 'Hello Kitty' princess weapon, well to each their own I suppose, but on my stuff the stickers came right off when I was done shooting with no residue.

I'm not affiliated with APTS, just shoot there.

I think the larger question is why is the USFS screwing around with this BS. Send Ranger Sasquatch and her pet chupacabra up into the pot grows or whatever to actually do meaningful police work that USFS land has a legitimate need for.

Cokebottle
03-27-2011, 12:54 PM
Sounds to me like APTS is trying to keep their patrons from being harassed by pre checking guns so that IF ATF or other LEO entity shows up, they can tell them that anyone with a green sticker doesn't need to be bothered because they've already been cleared harassed.
Fixed it for you.

Save the patrons the trouble of one or two of them being harassed by LE by harassing all of them first.

And especially given comments like Falafal's...
(considering this crowd, likely suspicious)
No, I think I'll continue going to A different Place To Shoot.

Fyathyrio
03-27-2011, 2:47 PM
Sounds to me like APTS is trying to keep their patrons from being harassed by pre checking guns so that IF ATF or other LEO entity shows up, they can tell them that anyone with a green sticker doesn't need to be bothered because they've already been cleared. Sounds to me like they are going above and beyond to make sure we don't get harrassed. Not sure why so many people are bashing them or saying they are working for the Gov't. Sounds more like they are trying to protect us from big brother. Perhaps a different system would be better....like a green flag on a stand by the bench or something less "invasive".
So, if you were LE, would you really trust the validity of a simple green sticker that can be bough for a few bucks at any office supply store? Would you really trust a gun shop employee to enforce the law for you? How about if the range starts calling LE just because they think something is fishy? Maybe they can report anybody who comes in with two EBRs with mags and greater then .22 cal.? Where should they stop?

This is a crappy policy on a slippery slope that's helping the continued erosion of common sense gun rights...and needs to stop.

Connor P Price
03-27-2011, 2:59 PM
Oaklander, wouldn't an unregistered handgun be illegal, espescially for someone who is say 21 and was not old enough to buy them before the registration requirement.

Many others have touched on this comment already, so normally I wouldn't say anything but I think there's something additional to be seen in Oak's comment, outside the scope of what others have mentioned.

People spend to much time demonizing guns, and personifying them. Oak mentioned a couple of ways that a gun can be illegal. Other than those we shouldn't think of it as an illegal gun, because guns can not act, we need to think about the illegal act that may have been committed when transferring ownership of that gun. Your right that in a general sense you can't own an unregistered handgun if your under a certain age without having acquired it illegally (exceptions previously mentioned aside). However that doesn't make an illegal gun, it just means that somebody may have partaken in an illegal transfer.

Yes, I'm mincing words here, but words are all we have in discussions like these so I find it best to choose them cautiously.

morfeeis
03-27-2011, 3:04 PM
What about featureless and 30rd mags? :cool:
never mind read the rest of the thread.

Andy Taylor
03-27-2011, 3:12 PM
Oaklander, wouldn't an unregistered handgun be illegal, espescially for someone who is say 21 and was not old enough to buy them before the registration requirement.

No it is not. There is no law that says a hndgun has to be registared. However if you illegally carry a handgun that is not registared then that increases the crime from a misdemeanor to a felony.
Also a person under 21 can legally recieve a handgun as a gift from his/her parents.

russ69
03-27-2011, 4:02 PM
I think you guys are missing one aspect that isn't talked about much. I'm pretty sure the average Joe just isn't up to speed on California laws as much as we are. I've been studying the laws for 20 plus years and I still don't always get it right. At any rate, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of unregistered rifles out there and a lot of the owners have no clue that their rifle is illegal. How could they, they go to the range and see a bunch of rifles in all kind of configurations and assume everything is OK. We have a 3 tiered system, we have RAWs, Featureless and BB rifles. To the casual observer, there is no difference. It's no wonder people are confused, heck even the LEOs don't have a clue.
Anyway, it just might be a way for APTS to operate the range without causing too much hassle. The RO has a little green sticker and says, OK I checked and you are GTG. This might give the customers an opportunity to bring their rifles into compliance without the customers feeling they are being singled out. Guys that don't want to go through that are free to remove the rifle from the range. Perhaps even saving themselves from a law enforcement problem.
I know most of the guys at APTS, they are not hard nose bastards, mostly pretty likable. It's certainly not like Angeles, that's for sure.

Thanx, Russ

xbimmers
03-27-2011, 4:08 PM
What does APTS stand for? and where is it?

Cokebottle
03-27-2011, 4:14 PM
What does APTS stand for? and where is it?
A
Place
To
Shoot

Santa Clarita area.

Joe
03-27-2011, 4:15 PM
What does APTS stand for? and where is it?

Google gave me this:

http://www.aplacetoshoot.net/

falawful
03-27-2011, 4:36 PM
Shot there today.

No more checking of rifles, green stickers, etc.

Per the staff they had the ATF up there (not USFS as I said earlier), snooping around b/c of some lawsuit regarding bullet buttons.

Anyone know about some lawsuit going on relative to BB's or evil black rifles?

Cokebottle
03-27-2011, 4:39 PM
Shot there today.

No more checking of rifles, green stickers, etc.

Per the staff they had the ATF up there (not USFS as I said earlier), snooping around b/c of some lawsuit regarding bullet buttons.

Anyone know about some lawsuit going on relative to BB's or evil black rifles?
Send a PM to Hoffmang.
If there is, he needs to know about it.

But again, ATF is federal... they don't care about BB. USFS/DFG would.
ATF would be concerned about 922(r) issues, 14.5" and shorter barrels without pinned muzzle devices, and AR pistols built from "long gun" lowers.

Librarian
03-27-2011, 4:41 PM
For ATF to be interested it would have to be Federal. 'Bullet buttons' are strictly a CA issue.

hill billy
03-27-2011, 5:19 PM
Some of you need to take a chill pill.



And you need to stop being such a condescending horses backside.

It's pretty simple, we have it hard enough here, don't make it harder. I shoot there on a rare occasion and find the RO's nice enough. Nevertheless, paws off my guns unless invited or asked.

eaglemike
03-27-2011, 5:51 PM
I can understand their desire to ensure the firearms are compliant. Marking them?? wellll........ Does seem a little off-putting.

I don't understand why they won't let one use legally possessed (>10) magazines in a legally compliant (featureless) arm. This creates a score on the FUDometer. :(

falawful
03-27-2011, 6:07 PM
No one in the conversation that I had (myself included) understood why the feds were screwing around with a state issue. Apparently it was due to some fed court case.

That's all I know, as that's what they said.

I feel the same way you guys do about lookee but no touchee, but after they explained what was up I was somewhat understanding as to what they were trying to do.

IrishPirate
03-27-2011, 6:32 PM
Fixed it for you.

Save the patrons the trouble of one or two of them being harassed by LE by harassing all of them first.

And especially given comments like Falafal's...

No, I think I'll continue going to A different Place To Shoot.

So, if you were LE, would you really trust the validity of a simple green sticker that can be bough for a few bucks at any office supply store? Would you really trust a gun shop employee to enforce the law for you? How about if the range starts calling LE just because they think something is fishy? Maybe they can report anybody who comes in with two EBRs with mags and greater then .22 cal.? Where should they stop?

This is a crappy policy on a slippery slope that's helping the continued erosion of common sense gun rights...and needs to stop.

didn't say i agreed with it, just that i don't think it's done with any bad intentions. i know, i know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions......still, i don't think APTS is doing this to try to make things WORSE for gun owners.

oaklander
03-28-2011, 12:13 AM
The FUD never stops. There are no lawsuits that I know of. I usually know about these things.

Even if there were one, the ATF would not (and likely COULD NOT) be involved.

Next time someone tells you that "the ATF was here," ask them which field office, and also ask for the name(s) of the ATF agent(s). If the range can't (or won't) give you this information - then you can pretty much rest assured that it's pure FUD.

As I said previously (several times), the ATF does not care about California gun laws. They care about FEDERAL GUN LAWS.

I am very happy that APTS read this thread last night, and changed their apparent "policy" today - but they are NOT doing a service to anyone by apparently spreading FUD.

If APTS management wants to send me an email at CaliforniaNFAtrust@gmail.com, with the name of the alleged ATF agents who are involved, I can contact the field office and find out about this "suit." To the extent that I know people who have expertise regarding the legality of "bullet buttons," I am happy to help the ATF understand why these are legal - but AGAIN - it's NOT a FEDERAL ISSUE. So the whole thing is confusing to me, and smells like FUD, at this point.

ALSO - if you have questions about Federal Gun Law - do not be afraid to call your local ATF office. They won't bite. They are generally very helpful, and if they don't know the answer, they will refer you to the "main office." The only thing I would discourage is writing them asking for opinion letters. If you do this, you should talk to someone experienced in gun law (and gun law politics) first, since getting the "wrong opinion" can cause more problems than simply leaving the question open.

With respect to California gun law - please DO NOT call the CADOJ, at least not yet. They generally give wrong answers.

The above is based on my personal experience, and the experiences of people I have talked to. It's not FUD!!!

:D

ETA: as always, when you ask a question - you should frame the question as a hypothetical. If you don't know what this means, do not ask the question.

Shot there today.

No more checking of rifles, green stickers, etc.

Per the staff they had the ATF up there (not USFS as I said earlier), snooping around b/c of some lawsuit regarding bullet buttons.

Anyone know about some lawsuit going on relative to BB's or evil black rifles?

Napalm Bulldog
03-28-2011, 12:45 AM
I feel safer already. :rolleyes:

And I thought I was the only one.:rofl2:

oaklander
03-28-2011, 1:08 AM
Your posts continue to not make sense, even after re-reading them several times.

You ridicule people who are concerned about their own privacy and property, and variously spread apparent FUD about the ATF and/or the USFS.

At this point, you have lost all credibility here. Please do not tell me that you work at APTS, since you are doing little to help their reputation, which by all reports, is still pretty good.

The point that you seem to completely MISS - is that in this country, we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I've never, ever been to ANY gun range where they have asked me to prove that my gun was legally configured. Ranges which pull that kind of B.S. would tend to go out of business. Imagine going to a bowling alley where they want to weight your balls before they let you on a lane, It simply does not make sense. Trust me, my balls are big, but they aren't going to crunch through the wood.

Ladies, please.

USFS is what patrols APTS, as the folks that run the range are USFS lessees.

APTS is stickering the gunz as an effort to say that the RO has looked over your (considering this crowd, likely suspicious) firearm and 'vouches' that it is legal, denoted with the green sticker.

They do this in effort to allow any USFS LEO to walk the line and quickly see what a qualified individual has OK'd. Think about that, this would keep that sasquatch ranger chick off your back and outta your life should she be there and see a green sticker.

One might consider this to be customer service...

That said, when at the rifle range, I would encourage each and every one of you to protest the blatant 'gun registration' scheme that APTS is undoubtedly blatantly promulgating. Throw every type of argument in the mix, from that they are agents of the UN, to ACORN proxies, to devil-worshippers, etc. Lay it on thick!

In particular, I would encourage all upstanding calgunners to bust the balls of the guy smoking the cigar or the guy wearing the thick glasses.

Just sayin'....

socal-shooter
03-28-2011, 1:31 AM
perhaps the atf is now compiling a list of what californians own an oll?

*paranoia*

oaklander
03-28-2011, 1:41 AM
I own several, and the ATF can email me and I will tell them where I live. Actually, they already know where I live, since I emailed them a few months ago about my 03 FFL, just to make sure they had my correct address (they do, and they were very nice in our communications).

Again, the ATF is not the problem in California. The CADOJ/BOF is the problem, for numerous reasons, some of them institutional, some political, and some just non-sensical.

:)

The CGF and various other groups are aware of these problems, and are working to fix them in ways that are institutional, political, and "sensical."

The problem is that these groups need to know when various agencies ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING. Here, that is apparently not the case - it was a waste of our time to read (and reply to) this thread, since it was time that we could have been spent on an actual problem.

People should not invoke the name of the "ATF" or the "DOJ" or the "USFS" etc., unless there is an actual problem. Spreading FUD might make things easier for employees at a gun range, but it does nothing to help the movement.

It wastes our time.

It also unfairly "hurts" organizations (and/or people) who may actually support us / or at least are neutral to us. We don't need to "play around" like what MAY have happened here.

perhaps the atf is now compiling a list of what californians own an oll?

*paranoia*

bodger
03-28-2011, 7:09 AM
What about featureless and 30rd mags? :cool:

dunno, all they asked me about was BB and RAW.

BusBoy
03-28-2011, 7:24 AM
Trust me, my balls are big, but they aren't going to crunch through the wood.

Great sig material there Oak! :rofl2:

DesertGunner
03-28-2011, 9:54 AM
perhaps the atf is now compiling a list of what californians own an oll?

*paranoia*

That would be SO stupid and useless that the federal gov't just might be involved in it...

oaklander
03-28-2011, 10:21 AM
LOL - yes - gotta love bowling!!!

:)

Great sig material there Oak! :rofl2:

Glock22Fan
03-28-2011, 10:39 AM
My only problem at "A Place To Shoot" is that they have (or maybe had) a notice on the hut that said "No loaded weapons in holsters." So, I had my G22 unloaded in my holster. The R.O. said "Are you law enforcement, if not you cannot have a holstered handgun." I told him of the notice and my understanding that if they want to ban unloaded holstered firearms, the notice should not say "loaded weapons" but just "weapons." He was polite but adamant, saying he could not tell by looking whether it was loaded or not, so I repeated that if that's the case, they need to change their sign and took my holster off. On the way out, I mentioned it to the guy at the hut as well, and just got a grunt.

Apart from that, the only problems I've had there was when it was so busy, I was firing at 100 yards and people were firing at an angle at fifty yards and their bullets were going through their target and then on to mine. Got some holes in my target stand and they weren't going to refund my deposit, until I pointed out that the holes were .17 and .223, and they knew (because they had come down and looked at my muzzleloader) that I was firing .50cal. and nothing else. They then refunded the deposit.

El Toro
03-28-2011, 4:49 PM
No it is not. There is no law that says a hndgun has to be registared. However if you illegally carry a handgun that is not registared then that increases the crime from a misdemeanor to a felony.
Also a person under 21 can legally recieve a handgun as a gift from his/her parents.

Please clarify. If I purchased a handgun in 1980, when I was 21, from a private California party "Face-to-face", and transport it illegally, such as in a rucksack sitting on the backseat of my car, I could be charged with a felony because:

A. I never 'registered this gun' - It was purchased before any law required me to do so.

AND

B. I did not transport it in a locked container - It was in a rucksack and the LEO 'thought' he saw a gun when stopping me for traffic-related stop.

BUT:

If I properly transport the handgun in a locked container, separate from its ammunition, and somehow the LEO inspects my 'unregistered' handgun, I am free to go? What happens in this scenario if I go and 'register' my 1980 purchase with DOJ? Is the backseat rucksack carry a misdemeanor? Does my firearm get conficated?

Scary thoughts running through my head right now. I'm no criminal... :o

2Bear
03-28-2011, 4:55 PM
I'm no criminal... :o

Says who? ;)

(Welcome to CalGuns, BTW...)

ohsmily
03-28-2011, 5:04 PM
Please clarify. If I purchased a handgun in 1980, when I was 21, from a private California party "Face-to-face", and transport it illegally, such as in a rucksack sitting on the backseat of my car, I could be charged with a felony because:

A. I never 'registered this gun' - It was purchased before any law required me to do so.

AND

B. I did not transport it in a locked container - It was in a rucksack and the LEO 'thought' he saw a gun when stopping me for traffic-related stop.

YES

BUT:

If I properly transport the handgun in a locked container, separate from its ammunition, and somehow the LEO inspects my 'unregistered' handgun, I am free to go? YES What happens in this scenario if I go and 'register' my 1980 purchase with DOJ? Is the backseat rucksack carry a misdemeanor YES? Does my firearm get conficated?

Scary thoughts running through my head right now. I'm no criminal... :o

see above.

El Toro
03-28-2011, 5:10 PM
Well That's FUBAR!!! :wacko:

Cokebottle
03-28-2011, 7:44 PM
Trust me, my balls are big, but they aren't going to crunch through the wood.
I would post a picture, but last time it got deleted ;)

falawful
03-28-2011, 7:53 PM
Not sure why ATF would be caring about state laws either, but that was the feedback of the staff there. Same thing about USFS visiting them in the past.

Rumors have been flying around in this area about the cops being up at APTS, and none of it made much sense to me, especially the 'lawsuit' bit. That's why I posted it here. If anywhere, folks here would know what is up. I don't really appreciate the 'playing around' inference, not my goal here.

So Oak, please treat your FUD-finger like your muzzle: If you're going to wave it around, don't point it at me.

As for getting stickered, we're all pretty much on the same page: I certainly don't care for folks touching my stuff either, ask and it's ok, but I certainly did a 'hey, wtf is that, why are you doing that, etc.' when they put the green sticker on my rifles. As much as the whole situation irritates the hell out of me, I can still maintain some semblance of a sense of humor about it though.

I am not going to PM Gene as it seems like there's not an actual problem here, and this would likely be a waste of his time.

Oh, and APTS is a great place to go....

Cokebottle
03-28-2011, 7:54 PM
Please clarify. If I purchased a handgun in 1980, when I was 21, from a private California party "Face-to-face", and transport it illegally, such as in a rucksack sitting on the backseat of my car, I could be charged with a felony because:

A. I never 'registered this gun' - It was purchased before any law required me to do so.
Correct.
Unregistered handgun enhances a number of misdemeanors into felonies, and can be charged in it's own right if the officer believes that you "have or are about to commit" a crime.

These are primarily anti-gang laws, and of course, law abiding citizens get caught up in the ruckus because Sacramento legislators do not have the depth of understanding to realize that there are more legal unregistered handguns in this state than registered.
B. I did not transport it in a locked container - It was in a rucksack and the LEO 'thought' he saw a gun when stopping me for traffic-related stop.
Never consent to a search.
If I properly transport the handgun in a locked container, separate from its ammunition,
Ammo may be in the same container as long as the gun itself is unloaded. Magazines may be loaded if they are not attached to the gun.
and somehow the LEO inspects my 'unregistered' handgun, I am free to go?
Depends on the cop.
You're legal, but he may freak out at the unregistered status and detain you while he tries to find something to charge you with.

What happens in this scenario if I go and 'register' my 1980 purchase with DOJ? Is the backseat rucksack carry a misdemeanor? Does my firearm get conficated?

Confiscation is a possibility, but 1st offense is a misdemeanor.

aklover_91
03-28-2011, 8:30 PM
For ATF to be interested it would have to be Federal. 'Bullet buttons' are strictly a CA issue.
Not if they keep pushing for that self loading rifle trafficking nonsense.

oaklander
03-28-2011, 8:58 PM
Did you get it from my paysite?

oaksbigbowlingballs.com

:D


I would post a picture, but last time it got deleted ;)

oaklander
03-28-2011, 9:00 PM
Sorry if I got a little worked up. By all reports APTS is a fine place.

The lesson here is that FUD (wherever it comes from) is bad for us. . .

PLEASE FOLKS - if you hear something that sounds like FUD - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE simply ask "who" and "what" and "when" and "where" and "why."

If the person can't give you that info - it's probably a rumor (FUD).

Not sure why ATF would be caring about state laws either, but that was the feedback of the staff there. Same thing about USFS visiting them in the past.

Rumors have been flying around in this area about the cops being up at APTS, and none of it made much sense to me, especially the 'lawsuit' bit. That's why I posted it here. If anywhere, folks here would know what is up. I don't really appreciate the 'playing around' inference, not my goal here.

So Oak, please treat your FUD-finger like your muzzle: If you're going to wave it around, don't point it at me.

As for getting stickered, we're all pretty much on the same page: I certainly don't care for folks touching my stuff either, ask and it's ok, but I certainly did a 'hey, wtf is that, why are you doing that, etc.' when they put the green sticker on my rifles. As much as the whole situation irritates the hell out of me, I can still maintain some semblance of a sense of humor about it though.

I am not going to PM Gene as it seems like there's not an actual problem here, and this would likely be a waste of his time.

Oh, and APTS is a great place to go....

oaklander
03-28-2011, 9:03 PM
If only it was true!!!!

Great sig material there Oak! :rofl2:

hornswaggled
03-28-2011, 11:14 PM
dunno, all they asked me about was BB and RAW.

So did they like the bullet button?

vincewarde
03-29-2011, 12:10 AM
Some of you need to take a chill pill. Suffice to say, APTS is not the enemy. Personally, I think that the sticker biz that APTS is doing can benefit their customers (i.e. ME).

As it was explained to me, APTS is under a clause in their USFS lease as to not allowing illegal activities on USFS land, that's their interest in seeing that illegal guns are not at the range. The CUSTOMER's interest is served by what they're doing as you don't get hassled by USFS law enforcement when they see the green dot. APTS having their customers hauled off to the graybar hotel, is probably not so good for them as well as the customer.

As for getting your feelings hurt about sticker residue impinging on the righteous glory of your 'Hello Kitty' princess weapon, well to each their own I suppose, but on my stuff the stickers came right off when I was done shooting with no residue.

I'm not affiliated with APTS, just shoot there.

I think the larger question is why is the USFS screwing around with this BS. Send Ranger Sasquatch and her pet chupacabra up into the pot grows or whatever to actually do meaningful police work that USFS land has a legitimate need for.

While the range is probably not criminally liable if someone shows up with an illegal firearm, we all know that it would be very, very bad PR if they were busted at the range. Even if the range is on private land (as both the clubs I belong to are) there are still use permit issues. If you don't think this is a problem, just talk to the folks at Sac Valley. There use permit specifies restrictive hours in spite of the fact the they are literally miles away from the nearest residence. Imagine what it is like for ranges with nearby homes and NIMBY problems? The last thing any range wants is to be associated with criminal activity.

So I am understanding if a range wants to check forearms to see that they are legal and safe. One of the local Sacramento area ranges checks every gun before it is allowed on the range. I wouldn't carry it that far, but it is their range.

That said, give the real reason, not some cop out or rumor about ATF.

oaklander
03-29-2011, 12:20 AM
Yes, I don't think it's really a problem if a range wants to check every single gun, period. They are a private business, and are entitled to operate the way they see fit.

The issue that I had was that they were singling out a "type" of firearm.

OLLs are just as legal, and just as protected, as other firearms. By singling out one type of firearm for scrutiny, we ourselves are acting as pawns of the anti-gunners.

If you are old enough, you might remember a time when owning so-called "military-styled" firearms was no big deal. It wasn't until after that AW ban that people started singling out AR/AK/etc rifles as somehow being "evil."

Just look at the old catalogs if you don't believe me - up until yet another NFA law was passed, you could order a full-auto MAC-10 and just fill out some paperwork, and have a real and legal MACHINE GUN.

Nobody in the media/political arena gave a crap.

Then everything changed in the 1980's - and "military" stuff is now somehow EVIL.

We need to STOP the idea that military stuff is evil, because it is not. It's historic, fun, and expensive.

So I am understanding if a range wants to check forearms to see that they are legal and safe.

That said, give the real reason, not some cop out or rumor about ATF.

Agreed. You and I both have common sense, even if we disagree on other minor issues. . .

Eljay
03-29-2011, 2:34 PM
I think you guys are missing one aspect that isn't talked about much. I'm pretty sure the average Joe just isn't up to speed on California laws as much as we are. I've been studying the laws for 20 plus years and I still don't always get it right. At any rate, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of unregistered rifles out there and a lot of the owners have no clue that their rifle is illegal. How could they, they go to the range and see a bunch of rifles in all kind of configurations and assume everything is OK. We have a 3 tiered system, we have RAWs, Featureless and BB rifles. To the casual observer, there is no difference. It's no wonder people are confused, heck even the LEOs don't have a clue.
Anyway, it just might be a way for APTS to operate the range without causing too much hassle. The RO has a little green sticker and says, OK I checked and you are GTG. This might give the customers an opportunity to bring their rifles into compliance without the customers feeling they are being singled out. Guys that don't want to go through that are free to remove the rifle from the range. Perhaps even saving themselves from a law enforcement problem.
I know most of the guys at APTS, they are not hard nose bastards, mostly pretty likable. It's certainly not like Angeles, that's for sure.

Thanx, Russ

There are healthier ways to do that. As the RO at my range checks for cleared weapons during target change periods you can see him kind of glance down for a bullet button, and if he doesn't know you or he doesn't remember talking to you before at some point if he's not too busy he might come by and chat a bit about what brand is it, how do you like it, etc. He'll also do that with any rifle he likes (Garands), but you can kind of tell he's making sure you're educated about CA laws in a friendly way.

oaklander
03-30-2011, 11:53 AM
I just wanted to update this thread. I have been in contact with senior management at the ATF's Los Angeles Field Division. They assure me that the ATF was NOT involved in this matter, and as I pointed out - it's not even the type of thing they would get into.

Again, as I've said before - FUD confuses people in the movement, and causes us to do little time-consuming fire drills like this.

IF YOU HEAR FUD, ASK FOR DETAILS. If you can't get details, it's FUD, by definition - so ignore it.

This applies to everything. For example, if a gun shop or range tells you that "x, y, and z are illegal" - ask for a code section or a case. Even though the laws are complex, they ARE written down. . .

Do not just believe stuff without checking it out, I guess is the easiest way to sum this up.

Back to our regular programming!!!!

:D