PDA

View Full Version : DD214 required (for CCW in some cases)


Hogstir
03-26-2011, 9:05 AM
I noticed that a lot of depts require a copy of a Veteran's DD214 as a supporting document. Anyone know if this is a legal requirement? Forcing Vets to supply something not required of Non-Vets would seem to be a 14th amendment violation.

The Shadow
03-26-2011, 9:42 AM
If you're claiming veteran status, why shouldn't you be required to produce supporting documents ?

rero360
03-26-2011, 9:49 AM
If you're claiming veteran status, why shouldn't you be required to produce supporting documents ?

Exactly, I would question someone's honesty regarding their claim to being a vet if they were unable to supply said document, especially now that most documents are available online.

Bikertrash
03-26-2011, 9:53 AM
I generally don't keep a copy of my DD214 on hand, but I've found that my VA Service Connected disability card works for most things.

Tripper
03-26-2011, 9:53 AM
Veterans get Preference Points for government jobs, the dd214 shows your discharge status, "Honorable/Dishonorable.
If 2 persons apply at the post office, one is a vet, one is not, there is a point system, the vet gets 5 points added to has application score. supposedly making it easier for vets to get jobs.
So, if i'm asking for a preferential treatment, based on serving in the military, yes, I'd hope proof is required, else that other guy that really didnt serve, could take my job.

Tripper

valkylrie
03-26-2011, 10:03 AM
I think the OP is asking about a supporting document for a CCW not a job. If that is the case then I think the OPs question is reasonable and unanswered to date.

I have no exact knowledge but I suspect the DD214 can be used to characterize military service and to show proof of discharge as anything other than Dishonorable. A Dishonorable discharge is a prohibiting factor for firearms.

nick
03-26-2011, 10:07 AM
I believe, he's talking about providing your DD214 when applying for CCW, based on another discussion here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=413398). Unless being a vet is a part of your good cause, I don't see how it's relevant or legal to require you to provide it.

CCWFacts
03-26-2011, 10:08 AM
I think the OP is asking about a supporting document for a CCW not a job.

Yes, that's what I assumed as well.

If that is the case then I think the OPs question is reasonable and unanswered to date.

Yes.

I have no exact knowledge but I suspect the DD214 can be used to characterize military service and to show proof of discharge as anything other than Dishonorable. A Dishonorable discharge is a prohibiting factor for firearms.

The DD214 still should not be required. There is one and only one way to determine if the person is prohibited during the CCW process, and that is the DoJ eligibility check. That covers military discharge, criminal records, mental health reports, anything. There is absolutely no reason for the issuing authority to ask for a DD214, and there's nothing in PC12050 that allows it. Asking for a DD214 is as relevant to CCW as asking for your 3rd grade report card and has no legal basis as far as I can tell.

nick
03-26-2011, 10:09 AM
I think the OP is asking about a supporting document for a CCW not a job. If that is the case then I think the OPs question is reasonable and unanswered to date.

I have no exact knowledge but I suspect the DD214 can be used to characterize military service and to show proof of discharge as anything other than Dishonorable. A Dishonorable discharge is a prohibiting factor for firearms.

Wouldn't that come up on the background check?

PC 12051(a)(3)(C): "An applicant shall not be required to complete any additional application or form for a license, or to provide any information other than that necessary to complete the standard application form described in subparagraph (A), except to clarify or interpret information provided by the applicant on the standard application form."

Hogstir
03-26-2011, 11:33 AM
I was asking about Vets being required to provide a copy of DD214 in order to get a CCW not a Job. As far as I know there is no vet preference in CCW apps ( I wish). As long as you are not a prohibited person ( dishonorable discharge ) why should we have to provide something that is not required of non-vets?

wildhawker
03-26-2011, 11:38 AM
(C) An applicant shall not be required to complete any additional
application or form for a license, or to provide any information
other than that necessary to complete the standard application form
described in subparagraph (A), except to clarify or interpret
information provided by the applicant on the standard application
form.

My experience is that the Counties view the DD214 as "clarifying or interpreting".

Soldier415
03-26-2011, 12:04 PM
I noticed that a lot of depts require a copy of a Veteran's DD214 as a supporting document. Anyone know if this is a legal requirement? Forcing Vets to supply something not required of Non-Vets would seem to be a 14th amendment violation.
Well, if you are going all Gecko45 and claiming to have been a SPECSEALHALOSECRETSQUIRRELOPERATOR during the hiring process or on initial app...they want to have the paperwork to back that up.

Hogstir
03-26-2011, 12:07 PM
So in essence Vets are being required to prove they are not in a prohibited class prior to the background check while non-vets are not? :mad:

wildhawker
03-26-2011, 12:11 PM
I'm saying that this is something which might take more than a letter. Hang tight and stay tuned.

Fjold
03-26-2011, 12:11 PM
Well, if you are going all Gecko45 and claiming to have been a SPECSEALHALOSECRETSQUIRRELOPERATOR during the hiring process or on initial app...they want to have the paperwork to back that up.

But then your DD214 would be top secret and you wouldn't be able to supply a copy.

:D

nicki
03-26-2011, 12:41 PM
Here is the issue with a DD214. A bad conduct/dishonorable may show up in police data bases, but a "general discharge" probably wouldn't.

If you have anything other than an "honorable", it kind of raises flags with law enforcement.

When I was in the service, the people who were getting "general discharges' were slackers, drug users who got caught, screw ups, and Gays/Lesbians who got outed either by getting caught in the act or by outing oneself.

The discharge is viewed by many as a sign of character. For those who served, you understand where I'm coming from.

If someone came to me and they had anything other than a "Honorable" discharge, it would raise some red flags.

Nicki

Mr. Burns
03-26-2011, 12:46 PM
:iagree:

Hogstir
03-26-2011, 12:59 PM
There is a question on the application asking if you received an "other than honorable" discharge. I might see them requiring the DD214 if you answer "yes" to this question but if the answer is "No" that should be the end of it. Requiring a Vet to prove he isn't lying about something that is a non-issue for non-vets isn't right. It creates 2 classes of applicants with different requirements.



A Vet with Honorable discharge

wildhawker
03-26-2011, 1:02 PM
Hog I agree with you.

OleCuss
03-26-2011, 1:23 PM
I'd also like to point out that getting a copy of your DD214 isn't necessarily either easy or fast.

I'm pretty sure I still have my copy somewhere but if it's lost I understand it would take months for me to get through the process of trying to get another.

So far as it being online? Not for me, it isn't. I served one 8 year commission and resigned (never planned to serve more than that). Since I didn't stay in until retirement I have no benefits or records access.

So if they were to request my DD214 and I don't have it readily to hand there could be a very significant delay in my being able to exercise my CCW right.

oldsmoboat
03-26-2011, 1:49 PM
Seems like when I got out they gave me about 20 copies and a microfiche copy.

OleCuss
03-26-2011, 2:18 PM
I got exactly one copy.

Well, actually, I got two DD214's. One was when I was leaving federal service and going back to the CAARNG after returning from Afghanistan. The other was about one year after I resigned from the CAARNG.

The one about getting my final DD214 around one year after my resignation should illustrate how demanding the DD214 can result in a denial of rights.

They never explained exactly why the DD214 took so long, but I'm pretty sure that it was because they tried to keep me on their strength report until at least the end of their fiscal year. Not uncommon for them to do that - and since my MOS was very understrength and in demand (I think I was one of only 4 or 5 in the CAARNG when I resigned), they really wanted me on the books as long as possible.

But the net effect is because of the way that the CAARNG plays their bureaucratic games I could have been denied a CCW permit for about one year due to no fault of my own.

Midnightblue 72
03-26-2011, 2:19 PM
Riverside County is requiring a DD214 for CCW, I dont know about other counties.

DD214
2 Utility Bills
Driver's License
And a narrative describing why you need a CCW.

Even long standing employees of the Sheriff's department are now required to supply all of the above, at one time, the Correctional Deputies were only required to complete the packet w/out the above and only one line for justification, describing their employment.

Now it's who, what, where and when you felt you were in danger off duty and why, often a full page of documentation.

The CCWs are now a hard card, not the thin paper document, they are the same size as an ID card with a digital thumbprint, listed authorized weapons w/serial #s and photo w/signature.

steelrain82
03-26-2011, 4:25 PM
The only way I could see it mattering is if it waived the training requirement. If you have a dd214 and it says honorable. I know not everyone in the marines qualifies or even ever touches a pistol. If that was the case and were true I'd sure as he'll be glad it shows my pistol qual on it.

wildhawker
03-26-2011, 4:55 PM
The training req can't be waived.

steelrain82
03-26-2011, 4:59 PM
I meant if it could be waived that is the only reason a dd214 should be required other than that. I see no reason for it. Maybe they think it helps them determine good moral character if you have an honorable discharge and can prove it.

oldsmoboat
03-26-2011, 5:02 PM
I got exactly one copy.

Well, actually, I got two DD214's. One was when I was leaving federal service and going back to the CAARNG after returning from Afghanistan. The other was about one year after I resigned from the CAARNG.

The one about getting my final DD214 around one year after my resignation should illustrate how demanding the DD214 can result in a denial of rights.

They never explained exactly why the DD214 took so long, but I'm pretty sure that it was because they tried to keep me on their strength report until at least the end of their fiscal year. Not uncommon for them to do that - and since my MOS was very understrength and in demand (I think I was one of only 4 or 5 in the CAARNG when I resigned), they really wanted me on the books as long as possible.

But the net effect is because of the way that the CAARNG plays their bureaucratic games I could have been denied a CCW permit for about one year due to no fault of my own.
Didn't think about it but I never got one when I resigned from the Army Reserves. I went straight from active to reserve. I got 1 DD214 after my active enlistment.
4 years active, 8 years reserve, two enlistments. Should I have 2 DD214s?

Gray Peterson
03-26-2011, 5:07 PM
If you have anything other than an "honorable", it kind of raises flags with law enforcement.

When I was in the service, the people who were getting "general discharges' were slackers, drug users who got caught, screw ups, and Gays/Lesbians who got outed either by getting caught in the act or by outing oneself.

The discharge is viewed by many as a sign of character. For those who served, you understand where I'm coming from.

If someone came to me and they had anything other than a "Honorable" discharge, it would raise some red flags.

Nicki

If the issuing authority, with a separation code that known for DADT or pre-DADT policy discharges for being GLBT, uses this to determine someone not of "good moral character", they would be acting in violation of the California Supreme Court's decision in In Re Marriage Cases, which determines that the California constitution's equal protection clause views sexual orientation as a suspect class.

A sheriff would also have to be suicidally stupid to deny on those basis codes (though perhaps in some rural areas they might think they have). Not only would they have CGF going after them, CGF would be coalitioned with Equality California, the ACLU state and national chapters, Service Members Legal Defense Network, Servicemembers United, and on and on. The sheriff would also have a very short political career. I'm not sure if this would allow, say, the Governor to remove a sheriff, but if it's legally possible to do so in this circumstance, I think both the previous and current would do it.

dwtt
03-26-2011, 5:15 PM
Didn't think about it but I never got one when I resigned from the Army Reserves. I went straight from active to reserve. I got 1 DD214 after my active enlistment.
4 years active, 8 years reserve, two enlistments. Should I have 2 DD214s?

You should have 1. If you don't, you can get copies from the National Archives.
http://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records/

This will work only if your unit S-1 didn't mess up your records and sent your SRB to the repository like they were supposed to.

OleCuss
03-26-2011, 5:53 PM
I second the idea of getting a copy of your DD214. You can never tell when you're going to need one - and getting it may take more time than you have.

So I'd get started on getting a copy.

nicki
03-26-2011, 6:33 PM
If the issuing authority, with a separation code that known for DADT or pre-DADT policy discharges for being GLBT, uses this to determine someone not of "good moral character", they would be acting in violation of the California Supreme Court's decision in In Re Marriage Cases, which determines that the California constitution's equal protection clause views sexual orientation as a suspect class.

A sheriff would also have to be suicidally stupid to deny on those basis codes (though perhaps in some rural areas they might think they have). Not only would they have CGF going after them, CGF would be coalitioned with Equality California, the ACLU state and national chapters, Service Members Legal Defense Network, Servicemembers United, and on and on. The sheriff would also have a very short political career. I'm not sure if this would allow, say, the Governor to remove a sheriff, but if it's legally possible to do so in this circumstance, I think both the previous and current would do
__________________


So, does this mean that someone who is LBGT who applies for a CCW permit and is denied could possibly have grounds for a equal protection lawsuit in addition to what everyone else is doing?

Nicki

The Shadow
03-26-2011, 6:57 PM
The solution is simple, if you really have a problem with showing your 214, just don't mention ever being in the military, problem solved.

Because most people who received a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge, were charged with a crime while in the military, it's going to show up when an LE agency checks NCIC. Quite frankly, showing your 214 is no big deal, it just gives them a short cut which should expedite things, at least a little bit.

Does the CCW application even ask for military service ?

Old Timer
03-26-2011, 7:44 PM
Average time for the National Archives to send a DD214 is 10 days.

OleCuss
03-26-2011, 7:51 PM
Good to know. I'd heard that it was more like three months - but I was told that about 5 years ago and I guess it could have been FUD.

Deamer
03-26-2011, 11:22 PM
Just got my DD214 in the mail 2 weeks ago. Used it today to get my exemption from the Handgun Safety Card requirement.

The Shadow
03-26-2011, 11:44 PM
Just got my DD214 in the mail 2 weeks ago. Used it today to get my exemption from the Handgun Safety Card requirement.

What the heck's the deal on that ? Turner's in Chino said I needed an HSC to buy a gun, and now you're saying my 214's good enough. I have all kinds of firearms training, so what do I tell Turner's if they have something I really want ? Is there a law I can read that lays out what the exemptions are ?

CenterX
03-27-2011, 12:11 AM
The application must be filled out honestly - any omissions is just bad character. Or in PC jargon - less than positive.
Verification of the data you provide on the application is standard for address, age, DL status, citations, judgments, etc. Thus, it is in the same line of verification to produce a DD214 if the military service box is checked.
Like OldTimer noted - reissue takes less than a fortnight (well a couple years ago). The web page where you can request the record has an information bulletin regarding some lost records from the Vietnam era do to a fire, and a work around if my mind hasn't slipped.
Seems like all the only vets I know carried a copy in their wallet (most have become dust in the wind).

wildhawker
03-27-2011, 1:47 AM
Center, tell me again where a DD214 is or can be required?

rod
03-27-2011, 3:51 AM
The DD214 is optional. You have to prove you are competent with a firearm. If you want to by-pass the handgun safety course, show your DD214. That indicates you had the basic safety training in bootcamp and don't need to spend money on another safety course.

Deamer
03-27-2011, 6:29 AM
What the heck's the deal on that ? Turner's in Chino said I needed an HSC to buy a gun, and now you're saying my 214's good enough. I have all kinds of firearms training, so what do I tell Turner's if they have something I really want ? Is there a law I can read that lays out what the exemptions are ?

There are three exemptions for Military: Active duty, reserve, and honorably retired. I fit into the last catagory. I don't know what is on the DD214 of the guys that are over 20 and do something stupid and are forced to retire. With the old system they also exempted honorable discharge but when they went to the HSC they dropped it.

I got the list of exemptions from the FAQs on the DOJ website firearm section.

Drivedabizness
03-27-2011, 7:44 AM
This may be a little OT but a DD214 may or may not be remotely accurate - and good luck getting it changed after the fact.

In terms of showing relevant "clarifying" info that might be relevant (e.g. weapons training/expertise), mine doesn't show my secondary MOS as a PMI, or my being a Distinguished Pistol Shot (but does show some of my "Leg" medals).

If it doesn't contribute equally to the "yes/no" decision to issue it has no place in the process.

The Shadow
03-27-2011, 7:45 AM
There are three exemptions for Military: Active duty, reserve, and honorably retired. I fit into the last catagory. I don't know what is on the DD214 of the guys that are over 20 and do something stupid and are forced to retire. With the old system they also exempted honorable discharge but when they went to the HSC they dropped it.

I got the list of exemptions from the FAQs on the DOJ website firearm section.

I appear to not fit in any of those categories. I was honorably discharged, not retired. However, I do seem to fit into category X81, which is listed as any person with PC 832 training. I have an 832 certificate from '76, does anyone here think that this will satisfy the exempt requirement ?

Decoligny
03-27-2011, 9:08 AM
My experience is that the Counties view the DD214 as "clarifying or interpreting".

The application has specific questions that already address military service and discharge status. They can't require a DD 214 to clarify any more than they can require you to provide a clean DMV report to clarify your answer about not having any moving violations in the past 5 years.

wildhawker
03-27-2011, 9:35 AM
As in all things, they can until they can't.

dreslinger
03-27-2011, 10:01 AM
The Air Force issued a 214 as part of my AD outprocessing. They advised us to make copies and to register with the county you live in. When this is done, you can go there and request a copy at any time and they will produce it to you. This saves you time when replacing a copy from the government if you lost yours. I have a minimum of 5 copies in my safe and I have registered it with 3 counties that I have lived in. Not sure how the Reserves or Guard units did/do theirs but I would think (my opinion) is that without the 214, you are not out. If you are claiming Vet preference to be used in place of something, they have every right to ask for it. Just as they have every right to ask for a badge/ID if you claim LE. It may not be popular but it is what it is.

Al Norris
03-27-2011, 10:06 AM
If someone came to me and they had anything other than a "Honorable" discharge, it would raise some red flags.

So if someone came to you with a "General Under Honorable Conditions," that would cause you some concern?

Why?

I can think of several reasons why a person might receive that specific discharge, and none of them are shady in nature.

Arondos
03-27-2011, 10:08 AM
I'd also like to point out that getting a copy of your DD214 isn't necessarily either easy or fast.

I'm pretty sure I still have my copy somewhere but if it's lost I understand it would take months for me to get through the process of trying to get another.

So far as it being online? Not for me, it isn't. Since I didn't stay in until retirement I have no benefits or records access.

Actually it is fairly simple to get a DD214 (see thread in calgunners in service section). I just went through the process while buying a house. Don't bring up veteran status when applying and there is no reason for them to ask for it.

There is NO requirement that you be retired for record access.

wazdat
03-27-2011, 10:37 AM
So if someone came to you with a "General Under Honorable Conditions," that would cause you some concern?

Why?

I can think of several reasons why a person might receive that specific discharge, and none of them are shady in nature.

Besides the type of discharge, there's a Military Reenlistment Eligibility (RE) code and/or separation code at the bottom of the page. Any code that doesn't recommended reenlistment can be a flag that the person had some kind of issue.

Codes here. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blcodemenu.htm

wildhawker
03-27-2011, 12:39 PM
Depending on an applicant's response to these questions, I can see other forms being reasonably requested to clarify or interpret responses. However, I cannot see any basis for requiring additional forms of all veterans.

Section 2 Question 4:

If you served with the Armed Forces, were you ever convicted of any charges or was your discharge other than honorable?

Section 2 Question 9:

Have you ever been convicted for any criminal offense (civilian or military) in the U.S. or any other country?

Section 2 Question 10:

Have you witheld any fact that might affect the decision to approve this license?

Section 7 Question 6:

List any arrests or formal charges, with or without disposition, for any criminal offenses with the U.S. or any other country (civilian or military).

Al Norris
03-29-2011, 7:54 AM
Besides the type of discharge, there's a Military Reenlistment Eligibility (RE) code and/or separation code at the bottom of the page. Any code that doesn't recommended reenlistment can be a flag that the person had some kind of issue.

I understand that.

Nicki's statement was to the type of discharge alone. That's what I was addressing.

Unless things have changed (since I was in), you must have maintained proficiency and conduct marks of at least 4.0/4.0 to get an Honorable Discharge. So... someone who had 4.9/3.9 would get a general under honorable conditions. That is, the person was very, very good at his job but was slightly less than stellar in his conduct (which could have many reasons other than actual conduct, as civilians understand the word).

haole_50
03-29-2011, 11:33 AM
Now that the "STOLEN VALOR" case has been decided, thieves can lie all they want to "play soldier". That's why the DD 214 is a good document to have as PROOF of service.

androu
03-29-2011, 2:01 PM
I'm in Kern Co. and stated on my application that I was a vet but was not asked for a DD214. I would have gladly provided a copy if they had wanted it. I guess it just depends on the county.

Meplat
03-29-2011, 6:24 PM
I would suggest that you dig up your DD-214 and your Discharge and take them to your County recorder to have them recorded. Our County does this free for returning vets and gives copies free to the vet, yours may not. It has come in handy a time or two.


I'd also like to point out that getting a copy of your DD214 isn't necessarily either easy or fast.

I'm pretty sure I still have my copy somewhere but if it's lost I understand it would take months for me to get through the process of trying to get another.

So far as it being online? Not for me, it isn't. I served one 8 year commission and resigned (never planned to serve more than that). Since I didn't stay in until retirement I have no benefits or records access.

So if they were to request my DD214 and I don't have it readily to hand there could be a very significant delay in my being able to exercise my CCW right.

Gray Peterson
03-29-2011, 7:00 PM
Now that the "STOLEN VALOR" case has been decided, thieves can lie all they want to "play soldier". That's why the DD 214 is a good document to have as PROOF of service.

It's a criminal offense for someone to lie on an application form for a CCW, so "Stolen Valor" being struck down will not effect this.

Meplat
03-29-2011, 8:54 PM
So, does this mean that someone who is LBGT who applies for a CCW permit and is denied could possibly have grounds for a equal protection lawsuit in addition to what everyone else is doing?

Nicki

I think it would be hard unless someone is stupid enough to admit that was the reason. They don't have to give you a reason.

Now, if the FBI check showed you as a prohibited person due to a Dishonorable Discharge and the DD was documented to be for GLB or T, you may have a case. However, a full blown DD being quite debilitating with regard to many rights, privileges and eligibilities, I would think there would be many other more popular and fertile ways to go than CCW.

Meplat
03-29-2011, 9:02 PM
Where it would come up is the FBI background check and they ain't going to 'expedite' that. The solution is simple, if you really have a problem with showing your 214, just don't mention ever being in the military, problem solved.

Because most people who received a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge, were charged with a crime while in the military, it's going to show up when an LE agency checks NCIC. Quite frankly, showing your 214 is no big deal, it just gives them a short cut which should expedite things, at least a little bit.

Does the CCW application even ask for military service ?

Meplat
03-29-2011, 9:22 PM
I'm in Kern Co. and stated on my application that I was a vet but was not asked for a DD214. I would have gladly provided a copy if they had wanted it. I guess it just depends on the county.

Same here in Fresno. Let's face it, most of this crap is just for harassment.

cruising7388
03-29-2011, 9:36 PM
Asking for a DD214 is as relevant to CCW as asking for your 3rd grade report card and has no legal basis as far as I can tell.

My 3rd grade report card could justify a denial of my CCW.