PDA

View Full Version : Private ammo sales and shipping?


thefitter
03-25-2011, 8:55 PM
Can individuals sell ammo and ship it? Don't you have to verify age?

locosway
03-25-2011, 9:47 PM
Can individuals sell ammo and ship it? Don't you have to verify age?

Yes to the first...

And yes to the second. You'd hate to have someone knocking on your door because you sent ammo to a 14 year old kid.

I try to only sell face to face, it really limits liability that way.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-26-2011, 12:48 AM
UPS offers an "Adult Signature Required" service. The drawbacks are that it costs around $5 extra and "adult" means 21 years of age instead of 18.

thefitter
03-26-2011, 6:00 AM
Thanks for the info.

Hogxtz
03-26-2011, 7:14 AM
Not to hi-jack the thread, just to expand it. I want to send 1000 .40 to my son in San Diego. How does one ship? Just box your ammo and take to a ups store? Do you have to tell them thats its ammo?

locosway
03-26-2011, 7:16 AM
Tell them it's ammo so they can label it ORM-D and ship it appropriately.

Secret
03-26-2011, 10:39 AM
So if a 20 yearold orders 223 and a signature is required. The 20 year old can't receive the ammo? Or is the "adult" signature for handgun ammo?

Mssr. Eleganté
03-26-2011, 12:12 PM
So if a 20 yearold orders 223 and a signature is required. The 20 year old can't receive the ammo? Or is the "adult" signature for handgun ammo?

If the package is shipped using UPS's "Adult Signature Required" option then the person signing for the package is supposed to be at least 21 years of age. It doesn't matter what the contents of the package age. You could ship a box of copy paper "Adult Signature Required" and the UPS delivery guy would be required by his boss to get a signature from somebody 21+ years old. I don't know if the UPS guys actually check the IDs of young looking customers before they get the signature though.

v/dBrink
03-26-2011, 1:11 PM
Tell them it's ammo so they can label it ORM-D and ship it appropriately.

There are contractual deviations to UPS policy in that shippers of large (bulk) quantities of "cartridges, small arms" are exempt from certain aspects of Title 49 CFR (code of federal regulations).

The packaging requirement is an exemption from Hazmat regulations concerning "cartridges, small arms". Title 49 CFR specifies that in order for "cartridges, small arms" to be de-classified as "hazmat" they must be packaged per note 63 below.

It is imperative that the person shipping "cartridges, small arms" NOT state his package contains "ammunition" as Title 49 CFR has a very detailed glossary describing the many types of "ammunition" that may not be sent by common carrier.

Many UPS locations have a nifty wall poster about Hazmat. One of the items spelled out on this pictorial wall poster as being prohibited is "ammunition".

From UPS website:

"UPS does not accept hazardous materials shipments at UPS Customer Centers, The UPS StoreŽ, Air Letter Centers, Authorized Shipping
Outlets, commercial counters, or using Internet shipping. Ground shipments of ORM-D materials in the 48 contiguous States may be accepted
at some locations."

This is where it gets interesting:

From UPS policy:

"Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments."

The real problem is in order for the UPS flunkies to determine whether sending "cartridges, small arms" is ok they must actually read 49 CFR and know all the attending gobblygook. Good luck with that.

From 49 CRF 173.59:
"Ammunition. Generic term related mainly to articles of military application consisting of all types of bombs, grenades, rockets, mines, projectiles and other similar devices or contrivances."

"Cartridges, small arms. Ammunition consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a center or rim fire primer and containing both a propelling charge
and solid projectile(s). They are designed to be fired in weapons of caliber not larger than 19.1 mm. Shotgun cartridges of any caliber are
included in this description. The term excludes: Cartridges, small arms, blank, and some military small arms cartridges listed under Cartridges
for weapons, inert projectile."

**********************************

49 CFR 172.101 list of ORM-D:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/octqtr/49cfr172.101.htm

(page 145 D) cartridges, small arms
Note 63 is the exemption for non-bulk packaging.
30kg gross weight limit.

packaging requirement : ORM-D "ammunition" sticker (other regulated material) (there is a specific ORM-D sticker that says "cartridges, small arms").

*******************************
This below deals with note 63:

http://law.justia.com/cfr/title49/49-2.1.1.3.8.3.25.14.html

(b) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices. (1) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices (which are used to project fastening devices) which have been classed as a Division 1.4S explosive may be reclassed, offered for transportation, and transported as ORM-D material when packaged in accordance with paragraph (b)(2) of this section; such transportation is excepted from the requirements of subparts E (Labeling) and F (Placarding) of part 172 of this subchapter. Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices that may be shipped as ORM-D material is limited to:

(i) Ammunition for rifle, pistol or shotgun;

(ii) Ammunition with inert projectiles or blank ammunition;

(iii) Ammunition having no tear gas, incendiary, or detonating explosive projectiles;

(iv) Ammunition not exceeding 12.7 mm (50 caliber or 0.5 inch) for rifle or pistol, cartridges or 8 gauge for shotshells; and

(v) Cartridges, power devices which are used to project fastening devices.

(2) Packaging for cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices as ORM-D material must be as follows:

(i) Ammunition must be packed in inside boxes, or in partitions which fit snugly in the outside packaging, or in metal clips;

(ii) Primers must be protected from accidental initiation;

(iii) Inside boxes, partitions or metal clips must be packed in securely-closed strong outside packagings;

***************************************

49 CFR 172
(c) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering the packaging for transportation that the material is properly described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable
regulations of this subchapter. This form of certification does not preclude the requirement for a certificate on a shipping paper when
required by subpart C of this part.

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

PART 173_SHIPPERS_GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SHIPMENTS AND
PACKAGINGS--Table of Contents

Subpart D_Definitions Classification, Packing Group Assignments and
Exceptions for Hazardous Materials Other Than Class 1 and Class 7

Sec. 173.144 Other Regulated Materials (ORM)--Definitions.

For the purpose of this subchapter, ``ORM-D material'' means a material such as a consumer commodity, which, although otherwise subject
to the regulations of this subchapter, presents a limited hazard during transportation due to its form, quantity and packaging. It must be a
material for which exceptions are provided in the Sec. 172.101 table. Each ORM-D material and category of ORM-D material is listed in the
Sec. 172.101 table.
[/end]

I've been told by a UPS manager flunky that:
Ammunition can only be shipped by a FFL. (untrue).
Ammunition cannot be delivered to a residential address. (not true).
A copy of the shipper's and recipient FFL must be surrendered for UPS records. (this is extremely untrue. I educated UPS that a FFL was a privileged document and could not be handed out willy nilly and that UPS has no such corporate policy. UPS has a legal right to look at a FFL to verify names & addresses. That's it. If they insist then call BATF and BATF will educate them further.)

The bottom line is the singular issue with shipping ammo is how it is packaged. As long as you follow note 63 you're good to go. But UPS can still refuse because of ignorance of their own corporate policy.

Former 03FFL 25+ years. I could be in error somewhere in the above. Do your own homework.

Pete Albrecht
03-26-2011, 1:41 PM
I sold some leftover ammo through the classifieds here. Shipping was not terribly expensive but it was interesting. First off, UPS was right out. The "stores" are clueless, they have that poster that says "no ammo", and a main UPS warehouse is 20 miles away. Next I went to the Fedex "store", staffed by clueless kids. They freaked when I asked about shipping ammo. So I went a half a mile down the street to a main FedEx office ("FedEx World Service Center") staffed by some no-nonsense middle-aged women, who got it done. They knew about ORM-D and said "don't bother going to the other store, they won't know what to do." Too late, I said, already tried that, they sent me here...

I think UPS rules say that only certain approved shippers can ship ORM-D or ammo or something. So, the retailers can, but Joe Average can't.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-26-2011, 2:09 PM
...I think UPS rules say that only certain approved shippers can ship ORM-D or ammo or something. So, the retailers can, but Joe Average can't.

This is not true. Joe Average can ship ammo via UPS just like retailers can. Your problems came from the fact that you were trying to ship ammo through a "The UPS Store" franchise. These are privately owned retail outlets that pay a franchise fee to use the UPS name and logo. They can refuse to accept whatever they want.

Pete Albrecht
03-26-2011, 3:59 PM
Your problems came from the fact that you were trying to ship ammo through a "The UPS Store" franchise. These are privately owned retail outlets that pay a franchise fee to use the UPS name and logo. They can refuse to accept whatever they want.

OK. In my case, it amounts to the same thing -- the nearest actual UPS-staffed location (where the trucks go in and out) is 20 miles away. All the rest are those franchise operations.

It's the other way around for FedEx, I can find an actual FedEx-staffed location within 3 miles.

I suppose other people may find this situation reversed.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-26-2011, 4:48 PM
OK. In my case, it amounts to the same thing -- the nearest actual UPS-staffed location (where the trucks go in and out) is 20 miles away. All the rest are those franchise operations.

What I do is print up my own shipping label from my home by going to UPS.com. Then I just hand the package to the UPS guy who delivers to my work. If you don't have regular UPS deliveries at your home or work you can just hand the package to any UPS guy you see driving around your area. They are used to getting packages handed to them because of all the free return packages from Zappos and places like that. I think you can do the same thing with FedEx Ground, but I hardly ever see FedEx Ground guys driving around or stopping at my work.