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View Full Version : Ca. laws on "revolving shotguns" and registering a Taurus Judge as an AOW?


para-frame
03-24-2011, 4:07 PM
I have this wild Idea of having a SOT install a smooth bore barrel on a Taurus Judge and transfer it as an AOW to bypass the roster and the "shotgun in a pistol" laws, I know there is some law in California about shotguns with revolving cylinders, would the fact that it would be a title 3 weapon (AOW) exempt my theoretical Judge project?

Thanks.

Dead*Reckoned
03-24-2011, 4:26 PM
There is an assault weapon law about shotguns with revolving cylinders, but because it would be an AOW, that wouldn't apply I should think

cmth
03-25-2011, 1:08 AM
It doesn't have a shoulder stock, therefore it cannot be a "shotgun" under CA law, and "shotgun with revolving cylinder" does not apply. It is however a "short-barreled shotgun" under the law (completely separate definition and unrelated to a "shotgun") regardless of whether or not it has a stock. Making it an AOW smoothbore pistol and registering with a tax stamp will negate the SBS definition, and it should be good to go. Same as the Serbu Super Shorty.

redneckshootist
03-25-2011, 7:35 AM
according to California law the definition of a shotgun is, pc12020
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following: (A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

in my opinion you may be correct if made into an AOW you would negate the shotgun part that makes the judge a SBS

Decoligny
03-25-2011, 8:12 AM
according to California law the definition of a shotgun is, pc12020


in my opinion you may be correct if made into an AOW you would negate the shotgun part that makes the judge a SBS

The thing nobody is looking at is this: There are two seperate and distinct sets of laws you are dealing with, Federal, and State, and never the twain shall meet. They may use the same identical terminology, but the definitions of the terminology differ vastly.

Getting the AOW designation will make it "not an SBS" for Federal purposes. It will however have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the California Penal Code definition of a Short Barreled Shotgun. As long as the Judge is a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and the Judge has a barrel is less than 18 inches, IT IS AN SBS under CA law.

The two definitions listed for Shotgun and SBS under CA Penal Code are not related. A firearm does not have to meet the definition of Shotgun in order to be an SBS. Currently the Judge is not a Shotgun, but it is an SBS.

para-frame
03-25-2011, 2:31 PM
The thing nobody is looking at is this: There are two seperate and distinct sets of laws you are dealing with, Federal, and State, and never the twain shall meet. They may use the same identical terminology, but the definitions of the terminology differ vastly.

Getting the AOW designation will make it "not an SBS" for Federal purposes. It will however have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the California Penal Code definition of a Short Barreled Shotgun. As long as the Judge is a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and the Judge has a barrel is less than 18 inches, IT IS AN SBS under CA law.

The two definitions listed for Shotgun and SBS under CA Penal Code are not related. A firearm does not have to meet the definition of Shotgun in order to be an SBS. Currently the Judge is not a Shotgun, but it is an SBS.

So how are people buying Serbu Super Shorty type guns here in Cali. (stockless 500s, and 870s with barrels under >18 in barrels)? There is a long thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82693) in this section on how people are doing just that here in Cali.

Adehtla
03-25-2011, 2:35 PM
I think he may have missed the part where the law says "intended to be fired from the shoulder."

The Director
03-25-2011, 2:56 PM
There is an assault weapon law about shotguns with revolving cylinders, but because it would be an AOW, that wouldn't apply I should think

Sorry to thread jack Dead Reckoned, but your avatar has been bugging me forever....the links are backwards. That pic shows the ammo links exactly upside down and backwards.

/Resume thread.

CAL.BAR
03-25-2011, 3:29 PM
Ok I am the attorney working with OC Armory to bring in and do the trusts for the Serbu Shorty. Here is the deal.

CA law defines a "shotgun" as a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder etc. etc. so the Serby never having had a stock doesn't meet that definition. and is thus not a "shotgun"

CA then has PC12020 which says no SBS. OK, but there is an explicit exemption in 12020 for weapons designated as AOW under Federal Law.

So what is an AOW under Federal Law?

2.1.5 Any other weapon. Firearms meeting the definition of “any other weapon” are weapons or devices capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive. Many “any other weapons” are disguised devices such as penguns, cigarette
lighter guns, knife guns, cane guns and umbrella guns.
pengun
knife gun
umbrella gun
Also included in the “any other weapon” definition are pistols and revolvers having smooth bore barrels designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell. So the Taurus with its rifled barrel doesn't fit here[/B]

While the above weapons are similar in appearance to weapons made from shotguns, they were originally manufactured in the illustrated configuration and are not modified from existing shotguns. As a result, these weapons do not fit within the definition of shotgun12 or weapons made from a shotgun.
The “any other weapon” definition also includes specifically described weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more but less than 18 inches in length from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading. The firearm most commonly
associated with this portion of the definition is the Marble’s Game Getter.

12 26 U.S.C. 5845(d)
13 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(2)


The “any other weapon” definition excludes weapons designed to be fired from the shoulder that are not capable of firing fixed ammunition or a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore. However, certain alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver.14 A pistol or revolver modified as described is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA because the weapon is not designed to be fired when held in one
hand. semiautomatic pistol with second vertical handgrip As stated above, a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore does not meet the definition of “any other weapon” and is not subject to the NFA. It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA.

As for the Taurus - it IS a SBS under CA law, but, CAN be exempted under 12020 (AOW exception) if it qualified. However, it has a rifled barrel, so as configured CAN'T be an AOW , yet. . .) If it had only a smooth barrel and maybe a forward hand grip like the Serbu - it could work.

The AW portion of the penal code about revolving cylinders for a shotgun don't cover the Taurus b/c it isn't a "shotgun" under CA law b/c it was never designed to have a shoulder stock.

stix213
03-25-2011, 3:37 PM
The “any other weapon” definition excludes weapons designed to be fired from the shoulder that are not capable of firing fixed ammunition or a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore. However, certain alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver.14 A pistol or revolver modified as described is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA because the weapon is not designed to be fired when held in one
hand. semiautomatic pistol with second vertical handgrip As stated above, a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore does not meet the definition of “any other weapon” and is not subject to the NFA. It is important to note that any pistol or revolver having a barrel without a rifled bore does not fit within the exclusion and is an “any other weapon” subject to the NFA.


I'm imagining the most awesome looking Taurus Judge ever with a forward vertical grip :D

leelaw
03-25-2011, 3:40 PM
A Judge is NOT a shotgun, because it lacks a stock.

A Judge IS a "short barreled shotgun" due to its design for firing fixed shot shells.

A smooth-bore AOW is an option, but takes a bit of legal work. Use the search feature, the Judge has been discussed to death.