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Untamed1972
03-23-2011, 4:06 PM
I'm going to be flying tomorrow and will be taking a firearm with me, I know all the procedures on declaring the firearm and all.

I will be changing planes in Chicago though and wondering if there are any issues I should be concerned about there should I have flight delays or something. Dont wanna endup like that guy in NY or NJ or whereever it was whose flight got delayed and he got arrested when he went to recheck his bag.

zinfull
03-23-2011, 4:56 PM
Legally I would not chance picking up luggage in Chicago with a firearm inside. But it being Chicago if I had to spend a night camp out in a 2nd rate hotel due to weather I would very likely take the firearm with me for protection. But that is just me.

jerry

safewaysecurity
03-23-2011, 4:58 PM
I'm going to be flying tomorrow and will be taking a firearm with me, I know all the procedures on declaring the firearm and all.

I will be changing planes in Chicago though and wondering if there are any issues I should be concerned about there should I have flight delays or something. Dont wanna endup like that guy in NY or NJ or whereever it was whose flight got delayed and he got arrested when he went to recheck his bag.

Man that's pretty risky... but basically make sure your flight isn't delayed or cancelled like Brian Aitken. Just go from one flight to another. Don't leave the airport.

dfletcher
03-23-2011, 5:04 PM
For sake of discussion let's say he misses his flight and spends a few hours or night in Chicago - will his checked baggage come rolling off the plane or will it go ahead? If it comes off the plane can he not take possession? If he doesn't take possession, who does?

If the end result is the airline keeps his bag and sends it back to his home two weeks later, I understand that's a pain but it's better than being arrested.

My understanding of FOPA and the NJ case is not possession so much as access - the fellow had possession and access, if he did not have access (locked container and no keys) he may have been protected?

What does one do - leave it with the airline, toss the keys?

ubet
03-23-2011, 5:13 PM
For sake of discussion let's say he misses his flight and spends a few hours or night in Chicago - will his checked baggage come rolling off the plane or will it go ahead? If it comes off the plane can he not take possession? If he doesn't take possession, who does?

If the end result is the airline keeps his bag and sends it back to his home two weeks later, I understand that's a pain but it's better than being arrested.

My understanding of FOPA and the NJ case is not possession so much as access - the fellow had possession and access, if he did not have access (locked container and no keys) he may have been protected?

What does one do - leave it with the airline, toss the keys?

Can only commit on the last, the passenger must retain possession of the keys, while the firearm is in TSAs' control.

My solution, dont fly into chicago.

taperxz
03-23-2011, 5:15 PM
Do not allow yourself or the airlines to place the guns anywhere other than in the secured area of the airport and you should be good to go if there is a problem. Your instructions if there is a problem is to tell the airlines to make sure it is sent to your final destination!

I personally would never fly and have a connecting flight to my destination with firearms if at all possible. This has happened to us once(missing gun) flying from SFO to Seattle and then to Edmonton. It was a real PITA.

bulgron
03-23-2011, 5:16 PM
If I was flying through Chicago with a checked firearm, and I got delayed so that the airline wanted to hand me my firearm, I'd go find someone from the airline and tell them that no effing way was I taking possession of my baggage.

If I somehow couldn't get the airline to retain control of the baggage, I'd take it, then go rent a car and get out of dodge ASAP.

If I was on a trip where the delay from renting a car would be catastrophic (business trip), I'd do everything I could to make sure I don't have to fly through Chicago. (Or NYC).

Actually, in general, just do everything you can to not fly through Chicago or NYC.

Which Way Out
03-23-2011, 5:18 PM
What's the deal with Chicago ? or any other location for that matter.
Fyi I signed up to CG so I would learn such things, Thanks in advance

Untamed1972
03-23-2011, 5:32 PM
Do not allow yourself or the airlines to place the guns anywhere other than in the secured area of the airport and you should be good to go if there is a problem. Your instructions if there is a problem is to tell the airlines to make sure it is sent to your final destination!

I personally would never fly and have a connecting flight to my destination with firearms if at all possible. This has happened to us once(missing gun) flying from SFO to Seattle and then to Edmonton. It was a real PITA.


Sounds good in theory...but depending on starting and ending points of some trips there is no way to get a direct flight because it's simply not offered.

Untamed1972
03-23-2011, 5:33 PM
What's the deal with Chicago ? or any other location for that matter.
Fyi I signed up to CG so I would learn such things, Thanks in advance

Have you not heard of the Mcdonald case and the Chicago handgun ban? I'ts kinda of a big deal around here.

taperxz
03-23-2011, 5:37 PM
Sounds good in theory...but depending on starting and ending points of some trips there is no way to get a direct flight because it's simply not offered.

Thats why the last words of what you highlighted said "if at all possible"

Which Way Out
03-23-2011, 5:40 PM
Have you not heard of the Mcdonald case and the Chicago handgun ban? I'ts kinda of a big deal around here.

Sorry no I haven't. I knew it had to be a hot subject, just not heard of anything

Shotgun Man
03-23-2011, 5:45 PM
Sorry no I haven't. I knew it had to be a hot subject, just not heard of anything

I think the more relevant case is that of Brian Aitken who was mentioned earlier in the thread. I believe there have been other cases where people in NYC have been in trouble because their flight was delayed and they took possession of their guns. In some jurisdictions, I guess it can be a crime.

Quser.619
03-23-2011, 6:26 PM
Had something similar happen, but it wasn't Chicago. Had the airlines keep my luggage, all of it in a secure location over-night until I could fly out. They were actually pretty helpful. YMMV

pointedstick
03-23-2011, 6:32 PM
What's the deal with Chicago ? or any other location for that matter.
Fyi I signed up to CG so I would learn such things, Thanks in advance

In Chicago, mere possession of any type of firearm is illegal without a permit, and permits are granted selectively (read: discriminatorily and as close as possible to "not at all") by the Chicago PD and only to residents. So the moment you take possession of your bag containing a firearm, you're a criminal.

Also, just an aside so you can see how carzy and gun-phobic the Chicago government is, at the moment they require training at a shooting range to acquire a permit but they've banned all publicly-accessible shooting ranges within city limits. This is the subject of the ongoing Ezell case.

Which Way Out
03-23-2011, 6:37 PM
What a mess.
How would anyone ever know how to not get in deep s*** without the internet. Man just doing your thing in a normal way can ruin your life without even knowing it
Tnx

bulgron
03-23-2011, 7:14 PM
What a mess.
How would anyone ever know how to not get in deep s*** without the internet. Man just doing your thing in a normal way can ruin your life without even knowing it
Tnx

Yep.

Some argue it's on purpose too. The more landmines the anti-gunners put out there for average joe's to step on, the less willing the average joe will be to own guns.

You have to be very VERY careful with what you do with your firearms. But at least you've come to the right place to learn what you can and cannot do. Hang around long enough, and you too will know where the landmines are.

Which Way Out
03-23-2011, 10:29 PM
Yep.

Some argue it's on purpose too. The more landmines the anti-gunners put out there for average joe's to step on, the less willing the average joe will be to own guns.

You have to be very VERY careful with what you do with your firearms. But at least you've come to the right place to learn what you can and cannot do. Hang around long enough, and you too will know where the landmines are.

So true on so many levels

BusBoy
03-23-2011, 10:55 PM
I'm going to be flying tomorrow and will be taking a firearm with me, I know all the procedures on declaring the firearm and all.

I will be changing planes in Chicago though and wondering if there are any issues I should be concerned about there should I have flight delays or something. Dont wanna endup like that guy in NY or NJ or whereever it was whose flight got delayed and he got arrested when he went to recheck his bag.

All you ever need to know about flying with guns...

mGjddG5Owsc

hoffmang
03-24-2011, 1:28 AM
Actually, post McDonald, I think you may be able to legally possess a handgun that is registered to you in California. Someone with more time on their hands than me should run this down. I know you're safe under Illinois law as the California registration makes it legal and then it's a Chicago ordinance question.

As stated above though - you just want to have the airline keep possession of the firearm until you fly out. If it comes off the luggage claim, have the airline baggage guy pick it up and hold it for you.

-Gene

pointedstick
03-24-2011, 8:32 AM
Yep.

Some argue it's on purpose too. The more landmines the anti-gunners put out there for average joe's to step on, the less willing the average joe will be to own guns.

You have to be very VERY careful with what you do with your firearms. But at least you've come to the right place to learn what you can and cannot do. Hang around long enough, and you too will know where the landmines are.

On the other hand, those who aren't turned off become hyper-politicized and are willing to fight to roll back the nonsensical laws. So some casual shooters in places like Illinois, New York, New Jersey, etc. are impelled not to take up shooting, but the remainder understand that they need to get political if their hobby is to survive. It's ironic in a way, that these horrible laws plant the seed for their own future destruction by pissing off so many people.

Which Way Out
03-24-2011, 9:48 AM
All you ever need to know about flying with guns...

mGjddG5Owsc

Watched the entire video. This is on a level I could not have ever dreamed of. Of course at times I wondered about how hunters and what not traveled without getting into trouble. No plans for myself at this time, but I like to be aware of things like this. At least if I know someone that is going to travel I would be able to help point them in the right direction before they blindly run off into the traps.
Thanks to everyone here at CGs, This kind of unknown information and the great comradely is what I think I like most about CGs. :thumbsup:

While were at it, Private planes, that don't necessarily go through baggage checks, Any comments on these ? Asking only because a buddy of mine fly's.

CHS
03-24-2011, 11:41 AM
While were at it, Private planes, that don't necessarily go through baggage checks, Any comments on these ? Asking only because a buddy of mine fly's.

Private is private.

I've carried a loaded gun on a plane before :)

erik
03-24-2011, 11:49 AM
Watched the entire video. This is on a level I could not have ever dreamed of. Of course at times I wondered about how hunters and what not traveled without getting into trouble. No plans for myself at this time, but I like to be aware of things like this. At least if I know someone that is going to travel I would be able to help point them in the right direction before they blindly run off into the traps.
Thanks to everyone here at CGs, This kind of unknown information and the great comradely is what I think I like most about CGs. :thumbsup:

While were at it, Private planes, that don't necessarily go through baggage checks, Any comments on these ? Asking only because a buddy of mine fly's.

This was an excellent talk. The handouts were good too.


*Disclaimer: I also spoke at the same conference.*

CHS
03-24-2011, 11:58 AM
This was an excellent talk. The handouts were good too.


Yup, I keep those laminated handouts in my truck at all times for when I go to the airport with guns.



*Disclaimer: I also spoke at the same conference.*

That was my TSA-approved case he mentioned and showed in the talk. And I'm an organizer of that same conference.

BTW, Erik, you talking again? :) I haven't seen a paper come in from you yet!

nick
03-24-2011, 12:41 PM
If I was flying through Chicago with a checked firearm, and I got delayed so that the airline wanted to hand me my firearm, I'd go find someone from the airline and tell them that no effing way was I taking possession of my baggage.

If I somehow couldn't get the airline to retain control of the baggage, I'd take it, then go rent a car and get out of dodge ASAP.

If I was on a trip where the delay from renting a car would be catastrophic (business trip), I'd do everything I could to make sure I don't have to fly through Chicago. (Or NYC).

Actually, in general, just do everything you can to not fly through Chicago or NYC.

You forgot New Jersey.

erik
03-24-2011, 12:45 PM
BTW, Erik, you talking again? :) I haven't seen a paper come in from you yet!

Want to, but been buried in other crap recently. Also, I'd miss all the parties as I'm doing a 4 day (probably rifle) course at Front Sight that following weekend. You guys finally managed to not conflict with Bay To Breakers, and I end up with another event. :laugh:

hoffmang
03-24-2011, 4:59 PM
Want to, but been buried in other crap recently. Also, I'd miss all the parties as I'm doing a 4 day (probably rifle) course at Front Sight that following weekend. You guys finally managed to not conflict with Bay To Breakers, and I end up with another event. :laugh:

And I'm not getting an invite? Damn...

I mean, I've only been one of the few to deregulate crypto... :chris:

-Gene

bulgron
03-24-2011, 5:04 PM
And I'm not getting an invite? Damn...

I mean, I've only been one of the few to deregulate crypto... :chris:

-Gene

By the way, I've been meaning to thank you for doing that. That was pretty cool. I really have to buy you a beverage of your choice someday. Two, if your efforts somehow result in CA becoming effectively SI. :D

Which Way Out
03-24-2011, 5:05 PM
By the way, I've been meaning to thank you for doing that. That was pretty cool. I really have to buy you a beverage of your choice someday. Two, if your efforts somehow result in CA becoming effectively SI. :D

I will second that if it helps.

ChuangTzu
03-24-2011, 5:19 PM
And I'm not getting an invite? Damn...

I mean, I've only been one of the few to deregulate crypto... :chris:

-Gene

Wow, I didn't know you were a geek. :43:

:thumbsup:

CHS
03-24-2011, 5:25 PM
And I'm not getting an invite? Damn...

I mean, I've only been one of the few to deregulate crypto... :chris:

-Gene

Gene, I'll happily comp your badge if you decide to show up for L1 2011 this year :)

On the crypto front, last I checked Erik actually has one of the CPU's from EFF's deep crack :)

ChuangTzu
03-24-2011, 5:31 PM
On the crypto front, last I checked Erik actually has one of the CPU's from EFF's deep crack :)

I've seen the whole rack of boards making up Deep Crack sitting in John Gilmore's basement. I never thought about asking for a piece of it... : P

hoffmang
03-24-2011, 5:47 PM
I've seen the whole rack of boards making up Deep Crack sitting in John Gilmore's basement. I never thought about asking for a piece of it... : P

The nights Gilmore and I got to the point that we both can't recall the last argument...

Dates! I need dates to put on my calendar!

-Gene

Fjold
03-24-2011, 5:50 PM
Check it through to your final destination.

I'm flying from LAX to JFK in New York and on to Johannesburg and then Bulawayo, Zimbabwe. I'll check my rifle in at LAX and pick it up in Zim. I've flown connecting flights with my guns dozens of times and even got delayed in London for 12 hours and didn't have to worry about it.

ChuangTzu
03-24-2011, 5:53 PM
Gene,

L1 call for talks is open until April 1st:

http://www.layerone.org/?page_id=43

Dates/location:
May 28-29, 2011
Anaheim, California (Anaheim Marriott)

Would be awesome if you gave a talk there, even a short one.

Fate
03-25-2011, 10:32 AM
This was an excellent talk. The handouts were good too.

Here they are, plus a lot more: http://deviating.net/firearms/

erik
03-27-2011, 5:46 PM
Gene, I'll happily comp your badge if you decide to show up for L1 2011 this year :)

On the crypto front, last I checked Erik actually has one of the CPU's from EFF's deep crack :)

Yeah, I've got a processor floating around somewhere. But I also have an unpopulated board.

-=erik.

Zimz
03-27-2011, 9:30 PM
Check it through to your final destination.

I'm flying from LAX to JFK in New York and on to Johannesburg and then Bulawayo, Zimbabwe. I'll check my rifle in at LAX and pick it up in Zim. I've flown connecting flights with my guns dozens of times and even got delayed in London for 12 hours and didn't have to worry about it.

Have fun. As my user name implies, I am from Zims. If you manage to get Mugabe in your sights, please pull the trigger. You would be doing us all a favor. Cheers!

Edit: Apologies if you get stopped and questioned when you arrive because of my post...

Fjold
03-28-2011, 7:24 AM
Have fun. As my user name implies, I am from Zims. If you manage to get Mugabe in your sights, please pull the trigger. You would be doing us all a favor. Cheers!

Edit: Apologies if you get stopped and questioned when you arrive because of my post...


No worries, I have friends whose Passports say under Country of Birth - "Rhodesia" and they have suggested something similar.

Untamed1972
03-29-2011, 2:42 PM
Yup, I keep those laminated handouts in my truck at all times for when I go to the airport with guns.

That was my TSA-approved case he mentioned and showed in the talk. And I'm an organizer of that same conference.

BTW, Erik, you talking again? :) I haven't seen a paper come in from you yet!

What are these handouts you speak of.....anyway for me or anyone else to get copies somewhere?

Oh...and for the record my flights went thru w/o a hitch.

Although the San Diego TSA people seem to have an F'ed up idea of how checking a firearm is supposed to be handled. The first time I flew with a firearm I was told I had to surrender the key to my guncase for them to inspect the inside of the case....the inspection was not done in my presence. I protested quite vigorously but was told if I did not they would not accept my bag and with time running out to catch my flight it left me in a pretty tough spot.

So I wanted to get some more firm info on this and perhaps even make contact with TSA and the San Diego airport about their procedures once I know what the official TSA policies are.

Untamed1972
03-29-2011, 3:06 PM
There seems to be a discepancy between the aforementioned "handouts" at ( http://deviating.net/firearms/
) and the actual TSA website. The bolded portion below is NOT on the handout, but does seem to be a critical peice of information.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain in the area designated by the aircraft operator or TSA representative to take the key back after the container is cleared for transportation. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.


This does not say anything about the bag having to be screened in your physical presence. As was my experince in San Diego, they wanted the key but there was no publicly accessible screening area for them to open the case in my presence.

Can I get some clarification on this?

taperxz
03-29-2011, 3:16 PM
There seems to be a discepancy between the aforementioned "handouts" at ( http://deviating.net/firearms/
) and the actual TSA website. The bolded portion below is NOT on the handout, but does seem to be a critical peice of information.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm



This does not say anything about the bag having to be screened in your physical presence. As was my experince in San Diego, they wanted the key but there was no publicly accessible screening area for them to open the case in my presence.

Can I get some clarification on this?

While i can't give you clarification on San Diego, i can tell you that every airport i have gone to i have escorted my case with the key in my hand, and then asked to unlock my case so they can inspect the weapon to be sure it is clear of ammo. THEY NEVER TOOK MY KEY! Ironically the only place they don't open up my case is in Canada because they put it through a machine that x rays the firearm to see if it is loaded or not.

Sounds like San Diego TSA needs a lesson. JMO

Untamed1972
03-29-2011, 3:23 PM
While i can't give you clarification on San Diego, i can tell you that every airport i have gone to i have escorted my case with the key in my hand, and then asked to unlock my case so they can inspect the weapon to be sure it is clear of ammo. THEY NEVER TOOK MY KEY! Ironically the only place they don't open up my case is in Canada because they put it through a machine that x rays the firearm to see if it is loaded or not.

Sounds like San Diego TSA needs a lesson. JMO

I am thinking so as well. But after reading the TSA website I'm not so sure. I know that at terminal #2 in SD there is no publicly accessible baggage screening area, so it creates a problem, and to firmly stand ones ground they first need to know what ground they're standing on. I know that is has been repeatedly stated here to NEVER surrender your key.....but upon reading the TSA website it seems to be saying something different. So I do think some clarification is in order.

It almost seems that the portion I bolded from the TSA website was editted out of the handout from the other webiste or has TSA changed the website since it was produced?

Where can one find the actual federal code sections that cover firearms transport that the TSA policies are derived from?

CHS
03-29-2011, 4:04 PM
There seems to be a discepancy between the aforementioned "handouts" at ( http://deviating.net/firearms/
) and the actual TSA website. The bolded portion below is NOT on the handout, but does seem to be a critical peice of information.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm



This does not say anything about the bag having to be screened in your physical presence. As was my experince in San Diego, they wanted the key but there was no publicly accessible screening area for them to open the case in my presence.

Can I get some clarification on this?

Bottom line is that the TSA is full of crap.

FAA regs state that the key or combination cannot ever be out of your control. You can go tell the TSA to pound sand if they try to get you to violate federal law on this one.

Untamed1972
03-29-2011, 4:06 PM
Bottom line is that the TSA is full of crap.

FAA regs state that the key or combination cannot ever be out of your control. You can go tell the TSA to pound sand if they try to get you to violate federal law on this one.

yeah....I know everyone says this.....but if I hafta get in a pissing match with TSA at the airport I want a copy of the ACTUAL federal codes in my hands.....not just that everyone on CGN says that's the law.

taperxz
03-29-2011, 4:10 PM
I am thinking so as well. But after reading the TSA website I'm not so sure. I know that at terminal #2 in SD there is no publicly accessible baggage screening area, so it creates a problem, and to firmly stand ones ground they first need to know what ground they're standing on. I know that is has been repeatedly stated here to NEVER surrender your key.....but upon reading the TSA website it seems to be saying something different. So I do think some clarification is in order.

It almost seems that the portion I bolded from the TSA website was editted out of the handout from the other webiste or has TSA changed the website since it was produced?

Where can one find the actual federal code sections that cover firearms transport that the TSA policies are derived from?

In San Francisco, you go up and declare, they then take you to a small room and ask you to open up the case.

MY thinking is if you let them do it, and you leave your weapon with them, who is to say they CAN'T set you up??? You must open the case and YOU must close the case lock it and keep the key so that NO ONE else can open up that case while in transit.

BDMSCHS is right! TSA in SD are full of it!!

taperxz
03-29-2011, 4:11 PM
yeah....I know everyone says this.....but if I hafta get in a pissing match with TSA at the airport I want a copy of the ACTUAL federal codes in my hands.....not just that everyone on CGN says that's the law.

Might have been a great time to comply with their wishes because you wanted to catch your plane but also take names and the old UOC thing, record it!!

Untamed1972
03-29-2011, 4:21 PM
In San Francisco, you go up and declare, they then take you to a small room and ask you to open up the case.

MY thinking is if you let them do it, and you leave your weapon with them, who is to say they CAN'T set you up??? You must open the case and YOU must close the case lock it and keep the key so that NO ONE else can open up that case while in transit.

BDMSCHS is right! TSA in SD are full of it!!

That was their claim.....there was no "small room" for me to go to. So again....what is my "ground to stand on". If it truly is a violation of federal law then TSA is openly advocating on their website something that is illegal which is an issue in itself.

Yet on my return flight from S. Dakota there is a little TSA stand right there I can walk up to. The first time the guy didn't wanna see inside, just swabbed everything down....was very cool about it. (he even told me how a local range in town had just got a G18 to rent and he couldn't wait to go try it out!)

Second time, he did ask me to open the case and place the declaration tag inside and then locked the case and went on to swab down the rest of the bag.

For the record the time my key was demanded was back just before New Years. I just made the same trip last week and my key was not requested although they did call a supervisor to double check the screening. So they seem to not even be consistent in their handling of things.

If TSA at that airport needs to be straightened out then I'd like to bring this light and start chasing down who needs their in command needs to be addressed to get things right.

Untamed1972
03-29-2011, 4:21 PM
BTW....took this to it's own thread so it could get proper attention.....please direct comments to the other thread.