PDA

View Full Version : A hypothetical: your safe falls over


Librarian
03-23-2011, 12:39 PM
Suppose we get our expected earthquake.

By good luck, your wood frame house stands up with minor damage.

By very bad luck, your 3,000 pound safe rips itself out of its floor bolts and falls over.

Presuming the rafters/ceiling is unstable or weakened, and the floor is concrete and relatively clear and flat, how does one right the safe?

Besides a couple of strong friends, what reasonable list of materials and tools should one have to address the problem?

I've never done anything at all like this; I genuinely have no idea where to start.

PatriotnMore
03-23-2011, 12:43 PM
A winch. Or, block and tackle pulley set up.

Tripper
03-23-2011, 1:16 PM
Yep, a crow bar, to get a rope/strap into position, a come-along or winch, and maybe a hydrolic jack to help out

missiondude
03-23-2011, 1:22 PM
Unless you have a really wierd safe configuration (tall, skinny and top heavy), an unbolted safe will not tip over in most quakes. In the type of quake that would topple a bolted safe, righting it will be the least of your problems.

Ed_Hazard
03-23-2011, 1:28 PM
Engine hoist, jimmy bar, hooked chains

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-capacity-foldable-shop-crane-93840.html?hft_adv=10062&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=engine%20lift&utm_campaign=Automotive%20%26%20Motorcycle%20-%20Lifts%20-%20Exact&gclid=CK-X-pTP5acCFQgEbAodI0MG_Q

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pry-bars/30-inch-jimmy-bar-92590.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/chain-w-hooks/3-8-eighth-inch-x-14-ft-grade-43-truckers-chain-40462.html

dls
03-23-2011, 1:32 PM
Since you brought it up, now we'll have to get some type of City equipment installation permit and install seismic straps. :)

Zdiddy
03-23-2011, 1:36 PM
when the 2 ton safe would fall over at work they would lift it with a forklift.

Uriah02
03-23-2011, 1:37 PM
Levers and pulley's are your friend. I would think bolting it to the floor would help mitigate such an event.

Librarian
03-23-2011, 2:04 PM
Engine hoist, jimmy bar, hooked chains

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-capacity-foldable-shop-crane-93840.html?hft_adv=10062&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=engine%20lift&utm_campaign=Automotive%20%26%20Motorcycle%20-%20Lifts%20-%20Exact&gclid=CK-X-pTP5acCFQgEbAodI0MG_Q

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pry-bars/30-inch-jimmy-bar-92590.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/chain-w-hooks/3-8-eighth-inch-x-14-ft-grade-43-truckers-chain-40462.html

I almost see how that works ...

Would the 1000-lb hoist actually work for the 3000-lb safe? Hoists with more capacity don't cost a lot more.

Would a 60" bar make more sense? (It's more money, but Home Depot sells a 60" for less than $50.)

What would be usable for a non-crushable fulcrum?

How does one keep the chains from slipping off as the safe gets closer to vertical?

daves100
03-23-2011, 3:26 PM
Earthquake mass panic, looters, Police taking firearms:eek:

what safe:D

Coded-Dude
03-23-2011, 3:28 PM
with the right leverage; one man can accomplish many things.

chesterthehero
03-23-2011, 4:43 PM
I almost see how that works ...

Would the 1000-lb hoist actually work for the 3000-lb safe? Hoists with more capacity don't cost a lot more.

Would a 60" bar make more sense? (It's more money, but Home Depot sells a 60" for less than $50.)

What would be usable for a non-crushable fulcrum?

How does one keep the chains from slipping off as the safe gets closer to vertical?


if the house shakes enough to knock your dumptruck safe over then you will have tons of debris to pick through.. prettymuch any stack of wood/lumber will get the job done.. to get it off the ground a prybar or very well built hammer will be needed.. true you could use several shims but that would take forever to get the first one in.. once you get it up enough a tire (inflated on a rim) will work well.. bump the safe up a bit and push the tire in further.. remember if it starts to slip (as with all heavy objects) you can catch it once.. it may crush/kill you but atleast you will have caught it..

you can rent rotohammers (hammer drill) and ramset guns (concrete nail gun) from homedepot.. or ask around im sure someone will let you borrow one.. be warned.. before i lend out tools i make whoever is asking to say "can i borrow your _______ i need tools that men own and i am not a man so i dont have one of my own".. if you need to be shown how to use it you must say "i need a man to show me how to do it" :D
this rule was started AFTER a friend burnt out my hammer drill (i didnt even know a person could do that :mad:)

Joe
03-23-2011, 4:50 PM
Engine hoist, jimmy bar, hooked chains

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-capacity-foldable-shop-crane-93840.html?hft_adv=10062&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=engine%20lift&utm_campaign=Automotive%20%26%20Motorcycle%20-%20Lifts%20-%20Exact&gclid=CK-X-pTP5acCFQgEbAodI0MG_Q

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pry-bars/30-inch-jimmy-bar-92590.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/chain-w-hooks/3-8-eighth-inch-x-14-ft-grade-43-truckers-chain-40462.html

^^ This should do it

Suvhater
03-23-2011, 5:04 PM
Suppose we get our expected earthquake.

By good luck, your wood frame house stands up with minor damage.

By very bad luck, your 3,000 pound safe rips itself out of its floor bolts and falls over.
The force required to do this would knock your house down, presuming you used at least 1/2" anchors to bolt down your safe. Each anchor into the concrete slab can withstand over 5000lb of sheer force quite easily.http://www.simpsonanchors.com/catalog/mechanical/strong-bolt/sheardesign.html

Presuming the rafters/ceiling is unstable or weakened, and the floor is concrete and relatively clear and flat, how does one right the safe?
If the safe has tipped, then the floor slab wil probably be unstable as well. Would be simpler to try to roll the safe using lumber or any lever that might do the job. All you need is door access, you wont need the safe for some time... 3000lb might use it as a new home.

Besides a couple of strong friends, what reasonable list of materials and tools should one have to address the problem?
a 10 foot 4x6 and some large blocks (beam cutoffs or 6x6)
I've never done anything at all like this; I genuinely have no idea where to start.

if your gun collection is large enough to warrant a 3000 lb safe congrats.

BigFatGuy
03-23-2011, 5:54 PM
assuming you are alone and don't have a come-along, the old trick to pull a car out of mud might help.

tie off to the safe/car, tie the other end off to a tree/house/lamp post, put at much tension on the rope as you can when you tie it. pull the middle of the rope SIDEWAYS. It's a massive force multiplier.

Librarian
03-23-2011, 6:36 PM
you can rent rotohammers (hammer drill) and ramset guns (concrete nail gun) from homedepot.. or ask around im sure someone will let you borrow one.. be warned.. before i lend out tools i make whoever is asking to say "can i borrow your _______ i need tools that men own and i am not a man so i dont have one of my own".. if you need to be shown how to use it you must say "i need a man to show me how to do it" :D
this rule was started AFTER a friend burnt out my hammer drill (i didnt even know a person could do that :mad:)
If I'm borrowing valuable stuff from someone, I'll be happy to say such things, as well as promise to replace anything I damage.

But, username is 'Librarian' not 'Competent Construction Worker' for very good reason!

Librarian
03-23-2011, 6:43 PM
By very bad luck, your 3,000 pound safe rips itself out of its floor bolts and falls over.
The force required to do this would knock your house down, presuming you used at least 1/2" anchors to bolt down your safe. Each anchor into the concrete slab can withstand over 5000lb of sheer force quite easily. That I did not know - maybe this is a lot more unlikely than I speculated.

if your gun collection is large enough to warrant a 3000 lb safe congrats.
Real burglary rated safe. As is often the case, my wife found some things to fill in those 'empty shelves' :)

chesterthehero
03-30-2011, 7:05 PM
But, username is 'Librarian' not 'Competent Construction Worker' for very good reason!

aJzDW5FlsME
dont think about what you are.. think about what you COULD be!!! :D
(my better half watches this crap and now her smarts are wearing off on me.. sorta)

Librarian
03-30-2011, 7:21 PM
:)
OTOH,

_VrFV5r8cs0

TJMarc
03-30-2011, 9:26 PM
Please note this is a gross oversimplification, not to be taken as engineering advice.

I am going to assume non tension anchors prevent sliding...

First lets see if it is it possible for a 3000lb safe to topple over?

For conversation sake, lets say the seismic event creates a force equal to 1g.

Taking the case of your safe having a height to least dimension ratio of 3 and the center of gravity is at mid height. Thus, h = 3d and force applied mid height.

Then the over turning force is 3d/2 (3000lbs) = 4500d (lbs)
The self weight resisting this overturning force is d/2 (3000lbs) = 1500d (lbs)

Assuming your anchors are exactly at the corners (non conservative assumption) then the tension on the anchors is difference divided by the depth and 2 anchors (4500d - 1500d)/2d = 1500lbs

Assuming your your slab can fully develop the anchor then the allowable tension load on a 1/2" anchor embedded 2 1/4" is going to be 1070*1.33 = 1423 lbs http://www.simpsonanchors.com/catalog/mechanical/wedge-all/loads_carbonsteeltension.html

So, in theory if you safe is very narrow compared to it's height and you had a seismic event capable of generating 1g acceleration...it could topple over. But considering 1g (although possible) is rather high for a ground mounted object, your center of gravity may not be at the center (might work for you or against you), (since your safe weighs that much) your safe probably isn't very narrow and the demand is very close to the allowable with ultimate anchor capacity being 3280#..your safe is probably fine.

If you are truly concerned I recommend contacting a licensed engineer (civil or structural) as they can determine the appropriate anchorage pretty easily.

So, to address your original question of how to get it up if it did fall over. I say: support it with timber to prevent sliding, then steel shims/wedges driven with a sledge and then a hi-lift once there is room. Just make sure to support it as you go...and put notch/pocket in the side for the hi-lift to grab once you get it high enough to do so. If the hi-lift is too short you might need something to place it on as well.

Librarian
03-30-2011, 10:32 PM
One of the nice things about Calguns is the breadth of knowledge across our membership, and the willingness to share!

Thanks.

Before this, I had never heard of a 'hi lift'. Easy to look up, appears cost effective -- 48" is under $80, can handle up to 7,000 pounds, and I think would be tall enough to move that safe to its stand-up tipping point.

Something like the off-road kit and some chain....

freonr22
03-30-2011, 11:19 PM
calguns geeks ftw!!! fantastic seismology calcs :)

battleship
03-30-2011, 11:41 PM
All you need is an African bull Elephant with long tusks, might be one at the Oakland zoo. No rope or chains required.

Should have no problem with 3000lb safe.

Always find good info right here.

Mstrty
03-31-2011, 12:01 AM
Since you brought it up, now we'll have to get some type of City equipment installation permit and install seismic straps. :)

Hush.....San Francisco officials monitor Calguns.

Watch it will be in their next earthquake preparedness ordnance.

sunwelding
03-31-2011, 11:14 AM
In the event that your safe falls over there are company such as Sun Welding Safe Co. that can offer clean up service. We also offer bolt down service at a low cost. The safes that are bolted down do not get knocked over in an earthquake.

Jel
04-15-2011, 4:30 PM
when the 2 ton safe would fall over at work they would lift it with a forklift.

This sounds like it happened more than once. Would you mind elaborating?

buuddha
04-15-2011, 6:26 PM
One of the nice things about Calguns is the breadth of knowledge across our membership, and the willingness to share!

Thanks.

+1

:D