PDA

View Full Version : Destroying a Serialized Slide


Rekrab
03-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Hey guys, I have a handgun with incredibly shallow markings on the slide. I was planning on refinishing it but I'm almost positive that doing so will destroy the serial, import company, and manufacturer's name on the slide. The actual frame will not be refinished, but I wanted to make sure I wouldn't run afoul of any laws by doing this.

Common sense says I don't need to worry since it's just the slide, but I wanted to double check.

GOEX FFF
03-22-2011, 12:07 PM
The serialized frame is the controlled part, not the slide.
You can buy slides all day long. They alone don't go through an FFL.
As for the Import marks, as long as they aren't removed from a receiver or frame, its OK.
ie, there is no law that says you can't swap a new bbl on a say a Mosin Nagant that was import marked on it's original bbl only.

Rekrab
03-22-2011, 12:20 PM
That was my understanding as well, but I just wanted to do my due diligence before I embark on this project.

GOEX FFF
03-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Understandable. Also, think about Glock. They also serial their slides AND bbls.
(I believe that firearms in Europe, the bbl is the controlled part, unlike only the receiver or frame that is here)
Here, you can buy all the replacement factory slides and bbls you want that one can swap/repair them out accordingly as needed.

codypaint77
03-22-2011, 1:19 PM
CA PENAL CODE

12090. Any person who changes, alters, removes or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make such change, alteration or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment in the state prison.



12092. The Department of Justice upon request may assign a
distinguishing number or mark of identification to any firearm
whenever it is without a manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification or whenever the manufacturer's number or other mark of
identification or the distinguishing number or mark assigned by the
department has been destroyed or obliterated.



12093. Any person may place or stamp on any pistol, revolver, or
other firearm any number or identifying indicium, provided the number
or identifying indicium does not change, alter, remove, or
obliterate the manufacturer's name, number, model, or other mark of
identification. This section does not prohibit restoration by the
owner of the name of the maker, model, or of the original
manufacturer's number or other mark of identification when such
restoration is authorized by the department, nor prevent any
manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business the name
of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification upon a new firearm.

gose
03-22-2011, 1:27 PM
Understandable. Also, think about Glock. They also serial their slides AND bbls.
(I believe that firearms in Europe, the bbl is the controlled part, unlike only the receiver or frame that is here)
Here, you can buy all the replacement factory slides and bbls you want that one can swap/repair them out accordingly as needed.

Actually, in most countries in Europe both barrels and frames are controlled and in some countries even the slides.

G1500
03-22-2011, 1:31 PM
Understandable. Also, think about Glock. They also serial their slides AND bbls.
(I believe that firearms in Europe, the bbl is the controlled part, unlike only the receiver or frame that is here)
Here, you can buy all the replacement factory slides and bbls you want that one can swap/repair them out accordingly as needed.

My XD has one on the frame, barrel, and slide.

eaglemike
03-22-2011, 1:34 PM
CA PENAL CODE

12090. Any person who changes, alters, removes or obliterates the
name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing number or mark assigned
by the Department of Justice on any pistol, revolver, or any other
firearm, without first having secured written permission from the
department to make such change, alteration or removal shall be
punished by imprisonment in the state prison.



12092. The Department of Justice upon request may assign a
distinguishing number or mark of identification to any firearm
whenever it is without a manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification or whenever the manufacturer's number or other mark of
identification or the distinguishing number or mark assigned by the
department has been destroyed or obliterated.



12093. Any person may place or stamp on any pistol, revolver, or
other firearm any number or identifying indicium, provided the number
or identifying indicium does not change, alter, remove, or
obliterate the manufacturer's name, number, model, or other mark of
identification. This section does not prohibit restoration by the
owner of the name of the maker, model, or of the original
manufacturer's number or other mark of identification when such
restoration is authorized by the department, nor prevent any
manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business the name
of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of
identification upon a new firearm.
Regarding 12090 - that's regarding marking from the DOJ. :)

GOEX FFF
03-22-2011, 2:05 PM
Actually, in most countries in Europe both barrels and frames are controlled and in some countries even the slides.

Fair enough, I figured there was more than just the bbl. So if the OP was in Europe then he couldn't.

But here in the good ole USA - :patriot:

PC section 12001

(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072, 12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101, and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term “firearm” includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.


On another related note, prior to the GCA of 68', firearms weren't required to have a serial number at all.
For instance, there are many pre 68' .22's (boys rifles) that came from Remington, Marlin etc.. that have NO serial number on them whatsoever and are fine for sale today.

codypaint77
03-22-2011, 2:39 PM
10. OTHER PROHIBITED ACTS
Obliteration or Alteration of Firearm Identification
It is a felony to obliterate or alter the name of the maker, model, serial number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing mark lawfully assigned to a firearm by the owner or by
the Department of Justice. (Penal Code 12090.)

Possession of any pistol or revolver having its identification obliterated or altered is presumptive
evidence that the possessor performed the obliteration or alteration. (Penal Code 12091.)

It is unlawful for a person to buy, sell, or possess a firearm knowing its identification has been
obliterated or altered. Exceptions include, but are not limited to, the possession and disposition of
a firearm pursuant to Penal Code section 12094(a) by a person who is not prohibited by law from
possessing firearms or ammunition and possessed the firearm no longer than was necessary to
deliver it to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to law. Prior notice must be given
to law enforcement before transporting it to that agency for disposition and firearms must be
transported unloaded and in a locked container, as defined by Penal Code section 12026.2(d). (Penal
Code 12094.)

GOEX FFF
03-22-2011, 2:46 PM
10. OTHER PROHIBITED ACTS
Obliteration or Alteration of Firearm Identification
It is a felony to obliterate or alter the name of the maker, model, serial number, or other mark of
identification, including any distinguishing mark lawfully assigned to a firearm by the owner or by
the Department of Justice. (Penal Code 12090.)

Possession of any pistol or revolver having its identification obliterated or altered is presumptive
evidence that the possessor performed the obliteration or alteration. (Penal Code 12091.)

It is unlawful for a person to buy, sell, or possess a firearm knowing its identification has been
obliterated or altered. Exceptions include, but are not limited to, the possession and disposition of
a firearm pursuant to Penal Code section 12094(a) by a person who is not prohibited by law from
possessing firearms or ammunition and possessed the firearm no longer than was necessary to
deliver it to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to law. Prior notice must be given
to law enforcement before transporting it to that agency for disposition and firearms must be
transported unloaded and in a locked container, as defined by Penal Code section 12026.2(d). (Penal
Code 12094.)

codypaint77,
Right, but we have to look at what the term "firearm" means, and according to the Feds AND CA, is the "Frame or Receiver".
Obliteration of the serial on a frame or receiver which IS the firearm, is against the law, yes.
But not the other parts that are not controlled by that number.

If I have a totally stripped 1911 in front of me, not one of those other parts, serialized or not, is a firearm.
ONLY the frame is, even if it's completely stripped, it still is the only serialized controlled part there.
You can do whatever you want with the rest of the remaining parts.

Of course, there are other laws when taking about NFA stuff where the part or combination of parts are controlled.
But here with the OP's question, as such as a slide or barrel is not the case.

codypaint77
03-22-2011, 2:58 PM
I'm trying to make sure he doesn't do anything illegal, that's all. Any filing or destruction marks would be conceived as altering, especially the serial #.

In my opinion, it's a slippery slope.

Semper Fi

Anchors
03-22-2011, 3:02 PM
I'm trying to make sure he doesn't do anything illegal, that's all. Any filing or destruction marks would be conceived as altering, especially the serial #.

In my opinion, it's a slippery slope.

Semper Fi

I (very respectfully) disagree, Marine.

I think as long as the markings aren't on the frame or receiver (which is the firearm), he is good.

Think about stripped AR lowers and how they are the controlled part, even though we all know the upper is the most "firearm" like part (it does most of the heavy lifting).

CHS
03-22-2011, 6:52 PM
Hey guys, I have a handgun with incredibly shallow markings on the slide. I was planning on refinishing it but I'm almost positive that doing so will destroy the serial, import company, and manufacturer's name on the slide. The actual frame will not be refinished, but I wanted to make sure I wouldn't run afoul of any laws by doing this.

Common sense says I don't need to worry since it's just the slide, but I wanted to double check.

What KIND of handgun is it? The slide may indeed be the firearm. Generally that is not the case, but it never hurts to check. If we're talking about a 1911, no, the slide is not the frame/receiver.

Also, is it a gun manufactured pre-68? Pre-68 guns were not required to be serialized, but may be anyways. In that case, they may have marked the slide instead of the frame (if the frame was the firearm for that particular gun) because there were no standards for what makes up the "firearm" at the time. If this is the case, and the serial number from the slide was what was recorded for the transfer and there is no matching serial number on the frame, you may want to make sure you don't destroy those markings.

Lots more info is needed from you.

Rekrab
03-23-2011, 12:43 AM
Norinco 213, manufactured in 1964. Slide and frame serials match. The import mark on the slide was actually a bigger concern to me than the serial...

B Strong
03-23-2011, 5:13 AM
Understandable. Also, think about Glock. They also serial their slides AND bbls.
(I believe that firearms in Europe, the bbl is the controlled part, unlike only the receiver or frame that is here)
Here, you can buy all the replacement factory slides and bbls you want that one can swap/repair them out accordingly as needed.

Correct.

It leads to confusion when yoo're in Europe and find stripped MG receivers for sale w/o any paper required...

MP5 fully finished recevier for approx. $200.00 USD...

tankerman
03-23-2011, 5:24 AM
You have no idea what you're talking amount.

Your posts amount to FUD, nothing more.
I'm trying to make sure he doesn't do anything illegal, that's all. Any filing or destruction marks would be conceived as altering, especially the serial #.

In my opinion, it's a slippery slope.

Semper Fi

devilinblack
03-23-2011, 6:33 AM
On rifles, the import mark and new serial number are the "official" number, the manufacturer's serial number does not matter and is not recorded. If this is the case with a handgun, then removing the import mark, even if it's on the slide, could be problematic.