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FormerLaCrescentan
10-22-2006, 6:34 AM
I am a California native who moved to Pennsylvania. We are a Class 3/NFA and right to carry State - no restrictions other than Federal. I recently sold a FN Five Seven pistol with three 20 round mags to a California resident. The purchaser informed me that he wants the mags shipped to him disassembled for replacement parts. My inclination is to trade them on Sturmgewher for ten round mags and ship those to him. The guy is a bit loose as he stated in his email that he has multiple 30 round mags already - those adapters weren't made until a few months back by CMMG and only work with the 20 round mags. I guess he got the extensions shipped to him as they are mag parts - not mags in and of themselves.

Is it legal to disassemble high-cap mags and ship them as replacement parts?

Turbinator
10-22-2006, 7:20 AM
It is legal to ship hicap replacement parts to CA, as long as they are used to retrofit an existing hicap mag and not used to create a new hicap mag. You probably also shouldn't ship all the parts for 1 complete mag, because it would be all too easy to suggest that a new hicap mag is going to be built out of the batch. Whether this guy is or isn't going to do this, I don't know. The final decision is up to you.

Turby

s281c
10-22-2006, 7:32 AM
Turbinator is correct about being able to ship hi-cap mag replacement parts to a buyer in CA...........

But, what I would be concerned about as a seller, would be the fact that the FN5.7 hicap mags were not available before the CA ban so there is no way anyone with the exception of a L.E. would have any legally in CA to need replacement parts.

colossians323
10-22-2006, 7:44 AM
Turbinator is correct about being able to ship hi-cap mag replacement parts to a buyer in CA...........

But, what I would be concerned about as a seller, would be the fact that the FN5.7 hicap mags were not available before the CA ban so there is no way anyone with the exception of a L.E. would have any legally in CA to need replacement parts.

Wasn't the fn5.7 available in 98?
I did see this on another thread somewhere here.
I would ship them in pieces with out blinking an eye.
If he puts them together, and creates a new hi-cap, rather then using them for replacement parts, it is him, not you breaking the law.

50 Shooter
10-22-2006, 8:15 AM
Here's some info on SB23 and some Q&A answers at the bottom.

Magazines

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

SB23 does NOT prohibit the owership of magazines owned prior to January 1, 2000 nor does it prevent the repair of damaged ones.

If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(lifted from CalGuns)

I am writing in response to your letter (undated) regarding large-capacity ammunition magazines. You had a number of questions:

Q1: Can you import newly manufactured parts to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine?
A1: Yes.

Q2: Are there any restrictions on which parts can and cannot be imported?
A2: No.

Q3: Can you import all the parts of a single hi-cap magazine at once, provided they are unassembled?
A3: Yes.

Q4: Can a California resident travel to another state, purchase a hi-cap magazine in that state, dissassemble it and ship the required replacement parts back to themselves in California?
A4: Penal Code section 12020(a)(2) makes it illegal to import a large capacity magazine into the state of California. If you traveled to another state in order to import a large capacity magazine, you would be guilty of a felony, even if you disassembled the large capacity magazine before returning to California. If you disassembled the large capacity magazine with the intent to use it only as repair parts, you could lawfully bring the parts in to California. In either case, you would test the limits of the law, and be at risk of criminal prosecution.

Q5: Can you replace the magazine body with one marked "For Law Enforcement Only"?
A5: While theoretically you could use such a part to repair a lawfully owned large capacity magazine, most dealers would be unlikely to sell you such a magazine body, unless you were a law enforcement officer.

Q6: Is there any limitation to the number of parts you can replace in a legally obtained hi-cap magazine? (Scenario: if on successive days I replace each individual part of a legally obtained hi-cap magazine, am I guilty of assembling a new hi-cap magazine once the final part is replaced?)
A6: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes repairing or manufacturing a large capacity magazine depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts occur. There are 58 district attorneys in California's 58 counties. They could elect to prosecute you for a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if they believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

Q7: If the magazine body is replaced with one clearly manufactured after 2000 is there any burden of proof upon a California resident that they did in fact replace a worn/obsolete part and did not illegally purchase/import a new hi-cap magazine.
A7: A California resident who repairs a large capacity magazine that was owned before January 1, 2000 does not have any "burden of proof" that the magazine was repaired, rather than replaced with a new magazine. However, it would be prudent in such a case to keep records documenting the purchase of the part necessary for the repair in order to demonstrate that the large capacity magazine was repaired, not replaced.

Q8: Can you use parts designed for a 10-round magazine to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine?
A8: If parts designed for a 10-round magazine are interchangeable with parts of a legally obtained large capacity magazine, there is no legal barrier to using them.

Q9: Can you have enough spare parts to assemble a new hi-cap magazine provided they are unassembled and intended for use as replacement parts?
A9: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes posession of magazine parts with the intent to manufacture or with the intent to repair a large capacity magazine depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts occur. You could be charged with a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if a prosecutor believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

I hope that this information was helpful. Please feel free to contact me again if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

************ Merrilees
Deputy Attorney General
Firearms Division

JPglee1
10-22-2006, 9:23 AM
If he puts them together, and creates a new hi-cap, rather then using them for replacement parts, it is him, not you breaking the law.

+1...this is my opinion.

Don't play moral police. The law says its legal, send him the parts.

Just ship them in 2 boxes with a big letter that says "FOR REPLACEMENT USE ONLY, ASSEMBLY OF THESE PARTS INTO A NEW MAGAZINE CONSTITUTES A FELONY" or something.

Cover yer arse.


JP

6172crew
10-22-2006, 10:22 AM
I know that when I went to rebuild a old P14 magazine that the folks at Para-Ordance wouldnt sell me the followers but they did hook me up with everything else.

Seems like an OK policy, that way its a known fact you couldnt build a new Para mag from parts ordered.

Lame ****** law anyhow.:rolleyes:

s281c
10-22-2006, 4:06 PM
Wasn't the fn5.7 available in 98?
I did see this on another thread somewhere here.
I would ship them in pieces with out blinking an eye.
If he puts them together, and creates a new hi-cap, rather then using them for replacement parts, it is him, not you breaking the law.

Cut and pasted from wikipedia, the P90 and the 5.7 ammo was available prior to 2000 the commerical version of the IOM didn't debut until 2004, USG in 2005

Five-seveN IOM
The Five-seven USGThe IOM model (for Individual Officer's Model) was the first publicly available variant, debuting commercially in 2004. The IOM is similar in its basic design to the original versions, but differs in that it has a different accessory rail, lined trigger guard outside edge, and adjustable sights. It also incorporates a magazine disconnect—this safety mechanism prevents the weapon from being fired without the magazine inserted.

FormerLaCrescentan
10-23-2006, 10:23 AM
Thanks for the 411. I telephoned the DOJ for their input. The rep talked with her supervisor. No issues with me sending three complete magazine replacement parts sets. Just odd how agreeable the DOJ was. I was very clear that it was three sets of complete parts. Then again, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. Guess my three crates of Chinese AK-47 drums could be sold as parts too. Mag bodies, springs, followers and floorplates go out to Cali via priority mail tomorrow!

Crazed_SS
10-23-2006, 9:30 PM
Thanks for the 411. I telephoned the DOJ for their input. The rep talked with her supervisor. No issues with me sending three complete magazine replacement parts sets. Just odd how agreeable the DOJ was. I was very clear that it was three sets of complete parts. Then again, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. Guess my three crates of Chinese AK-47 drums could be sold as parts too. Mag bodies, springs, followers and floorplates go out to Cali via priority mail tomorrow!

I'd guess that they're probably gonna search through records and try to figure out what FFL recently processed a FiveSeven pistol that happened to come from Pennsylvania. Then they're gonna find who he sold it to and show up at that guys house. Probably arrest him in the proccess of putting together the mags.

phish
10-23-2006, 9:58 PM
But, what I would be concerned about as a seller, would be the fact that the FN5.7 hicap mags were not available before the CA ban so there is no way anyone with the exception of a L.E. would have any legally in CA to need replacement parts.

I wonder what CLEO will sign off on a weapon that is not supported by the armorers.

JPglee1
10-24-2006, 5:42 AM
I'd guess that they're probably gonna search through records and try to figure out what FFL recently processed a FiveSeven pistol that happened to come from Pennsylvania. Then they're gonna find who he sold it to and show up at that guys house. Probably arrest him in the proccess of putting together the mags.

Right...over a couple mags that they can't 100% prove you didn't own... lol

I wouldn't stress out over it...DOJ has better things to do then hunt you down for importing (2) 5.7 mag kits...hahaha


JP

Crazed_SS
10-24-2006, 6:00 AM
Right...over a couple mags that they can't 100% prove you didn't own... lol

I think It'd be pretty easy to prove considering how new the gun is and everything.

I wouldn't stress out over it...DOJ has better things to do then hunt you down for importing (2) 5.7 mag kits...hahaha
Dangerous thinking. I bet people like who put flash hiders on M1A's and keep incendiary rounds as souveniers thought the authorities "had better things to do" .. busting people is what they do. I dunno, maybe my tin-foil hat is too tight.. Im gonna laugh though if we end up hearing a sob-story some guy getting his door kicked in for manufacturing "hi-cap" magazines. :)

JPglee1
10-24-2006, 6:23 AM
Im gonna laugh though if we end up hearing a sob-story some guy getting his door kicked in for manufacturing "hi-cap" magazines. :)

Well yah...dont do it.

Import the mag parts and store them at a friends house, broken down...

Dont break the law by importing whole mags, but dont sit with yer tail between yer legs in fear either.

I personally dont like to tug on the lions ear while hes sleeping...


J