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View Full Version : Help me design a gun safe! **UPDATE POST 97**


capo
03-17-2011, 7:46 AM
Guys, I work for a safe manufacturer here in Montebello and I've convinced them to make more gun safes. So they've tasked me with designing them. What does everyone want in a gun safe? How many rifles should it hold, interior lockers?, what type of finish, etc.? My ears are wide open, pour it on! :D

***********EDIT*************

Guys I love the responses, thank you. I want my bosses to see these, please if you will do me a favor and post your wants and needs on our company blog.

http://socalsafe.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/help-me-design-a-gun-safe/

THANKS!

gravedigger
03-17-2011, 9:58 AM
If you are serious, and your company wants to do something special, contact me. I'll meet with your company executives if possible, to talk about royalties :rolleyes: on an idea I have. I will be working on it myself (among other things) when I move to Kentucky, and I may seek a patent on it, or design it as an add-on accessory that companies like yours can purchase from me, but I believe that a safe manufacturer which is already set up for production of steel products is better suited to research and develop it.

There is one problem that everyone faces when they own a safe. Guesses? :D

I believe I have the solution! PM sent.

maderashooter
03-17-2011, 11:28 AM
Large safe 30+ gun but also has built it one or two handgun safe in the door so that you don't need to open your whole safe just to get your ccw or hd hundgun out also exposes less of your collection during to period of time when your getting it out just off top of my head

WWDHD?
03-17-2011, 11:57 AM
These were the things I was looking for when I was shopping for a gun safe a few months ago:
1. Made in the USA
2. At least 10ga steel
3. Dial lock.
4. Several sizes to chose from.
5. CA DOJ approved.
6. Budget: $1000-$1500 max.
These are the things I wish I could have gotten on my Sturdy Safe but were not available or could'nt afford:
1. Interior lighting.
2. Electrical plug inside the safe.
3. Small drawer compartment for coins or other little stuff.

How about a decent sized safe that fits inside most common closets. In my house that would have to be maximum, including handles and dials, "24 deep. Keeping a safe out of sight behind a closet door is a good idea if possible IMO. Especially if you rent or have nosey room-mates.
I also like rifle racks in the center of the interior layout instead of left or right. Not many safe makers use this layout but if it were available I'd probably go for it.
Thanks for asking!

BayAreaShooter
03-17-2011, 12:15 PM
Its just a idea and might be a long shot and not what you are looking for but how about a safe that you can pump/suck the air out of as to not leave any moister inside which would make rust not a problem. Thats my theory at least. :D Its very unpractical but I just think it would be cool. On a more practical not how about a safe inside the safe that is as well fireproof (assuming the main safe is fireproof) that your most valuable items could go in to assure no fire damage.

gravedigger
03-17-2011, 12:22 PM
Large safe 30+ gun but also has built it one or two handgun safe in the door so that you don't need to open your whole safe just to get your ccw or hd hundgun out also exposes less of your collection during to period of time when your getting it out just off top of my head

a handgun safe in the door! That's a great idea!

As for 10 ga. or 12 ga. Etc., all of it is unattractive to me. Why not make a REAL safe, with 3" thick hard steel walls, top, and bottom? Make the door cast iron and for God's sake ... Make a safe with FOUR anchor points instead of two. That two point anchor nonsense is a joke. If a safe can be rocked, eventually the (n) gauge sheet metal the bolt heads are relying on will fail and the safe can be torn from the floor. A bolted down safe shouldn't rock!

If I start making safes in Kentucky, my safes will make current offerings look like the little gray tin box Aunt aedna uses at her garage sales!

thedonger
03-17-2011, 12:22 PM
A wall safe that fits between the studs and is flush or near flush with the wall on the front, fits a couple of long guns and handguns.

Dr Rockso
03-17-2011, 12:42 PM
Why not make a REAL safe, with 3" thick hard steel walls, top, and bottom? Make the door cast iron and for God's sake ...

Grab a calculator and figure out what a 24"*24"*72" box with 3" thick steel walls would weigh...the density of steel is about 0.3 lb/in^3.

BigFatGuy
03-17-2011, 12:56 PM
how about putting in a decently thick gauge steel partition/shelf into the safe, to separate the safe into a "gun" side and an "ammo" side. That way, if the safe should get hot enough to cook off the ammo, the firearms are a bit better protected?

CSACANNONEER
03-17-2011, 1:15 PM
A well designed safe should be able to accommodate everything from 26" rifles to +60" rifles. My biggest gripe about my safes is that my short long guns are too short for their racks (yea, I can put them on blocks) and I have to break down my 60" rifles just to fit them in the racks. The more modular and customer customizable a safe is, the better.

As far as locks, locking mechanisms, steel thicknesses, hinges, fire ratings, etc. I leave that up to you,

maderashooter
03-17-2011, 1:22 PM
Also think you could really do well with triple rotary gun racks one in center on door one on each side
Also I have noticed that many gun safes have racks that store guns barrel up you really shoud store the barel down to prevent oils flowing down and gumming your actions ( yes I know your not supposed to put enough oil for this to happen ) but giving enough time it will get to action

Also how about a footlocker style with horizontal storage turrent. Ten gun mabey. With at least eight bolt do points less leverage to rock .. make it top load with sections for your dryboxes of ammo

Also to the poster that suggested the vacuumed it would be expensive but it would raise the heat fighting ability of the safe ( no air to transfer heat plus vacumes are by nature cold it would be worth looking into) as well as Being the First to do it residential safe. And you are automatically 100% floodproof which some would pay premium money for

As for technology upgrade I would look to rfid tags there getting cheap and easy to use can be used two ways

1 quick acess a rfid tag could open your safe without you even touching it or with single button press in emergency situations could be life saver ( me personaly would only do if rfid chip implant.

2 inventory rfid stickers .. smaller than grain of rice these would keep track of inventory adding new inventory would be easy

tozan
03-17-2011, 1:28 PM
How about 3/4 inch carbon fiber with a door gap less then .150 inch and Ti drill plates... So it wont fall through the floor of a second story house... Plus make it larger than a regular house door and make it an assemble on location safe so their only option is to get it open...

Advantages Lighter and stronger than steel safe, can not be carried away and when you bring it home it is a bunch of plates and does not alert nosey neighbors that you have a safe...

Super Spy
03-17-2011, 2:01 PM
A box 30" x 30" x 72" with 3" thick walls made out of Alloy Steel weighs a bit under 8000#....(I didn't even pick a heavy alloy)

Uriah02
03-17-2011, 2:52 PM
I've been satisfied with the interior design of most 20+ gun safes. The main factors I am looking for in the safe I buy is: at least 3 locking bolts one 3 sides (can't remember what it is called), dial with manual overide, interior lights, 20+ gun, a cubbie type space one side of the long gun portion for more storage and so carbines are not so low in the long gun area. At or around 1K. Price for a decent safe just seems insane... at least I haven't seen a good breakdown of factors which increase cost.

blakdawg
03-17-2011, 3:38 PM
If I could buy a footlocker shaped safe (or strongbox), I would. The downside I see is the door - it'd be heavy, and the door would be dangerous if it dropped suddenly on someone's body parts, or if a kid crawled in there. Maybe that's why nobody makes them. I guess you could put gas-assisted shocks on it to ease the opening/closing but it's still an issue, I suppose.

It would be nice if the safe was prewired with several outlets inside, and connected to the outside world with a standard 3-conductor PC power cord - my existing safes have holes in the back wall where I can fish wires through, but it would be a lot cleaner if it was already configured.

It would be nice if the safe was prewired with contacts on the door for an alarm system, so that it could be triggered if the safe door opened. Again, that's something I could do, but if it was predone that'd be pretty cool.

It'd be nice if there was a safe company that either coordinated with a furniture company, or bought furniture and built safes into it - for example, a traditional upright safe could be camouflaged to look like a TV armoire or a dresser. The "footlocker" strongbox I described could look like a hope chest or solid bench.

I like to keep at least one HD long gun in the bedroom, and I think a lot of other people do, too - but that means leaving it unlocked, or having a safe in the bedroom. My wife is pretty cooperative about the safe thing (once she found out it was possible to buy the pretty safes with the glossy auto paint) but I suspect she'd be even happier if there were no safe in the bedroom. If it were possible to build a safe/strongbox/RSC that looked like traditional furniture, the wives of America would appreciate you.

It'd also be interesting to integrate cameras and/or intelligent locking systems and Internet-accessibility - e.g., what if the safe could send a message to a server somewhere every time the safe door opened, with a picture of the person opening the safe and the ID of the user (derived from the combination?) .. and a picture every time someone tries to open the safe with a bad combination . . . or even if that info wasn't sent anywhere, it could be stored on memory inside the safe (perhaps in a double-locked compartment). It'd also be nice if it were easy to remotely monitor the temperature and humidity inside the safe. (Actually, that's already pretty easy with something like the MicroGoose from http://www.itwatchdogs.com/default.aspx, but it could be factory preinstalled)

VytamenC Tactical
03-17-2011, 5:49 PM
These were the things I was looking for when I was shopping for a gun safe a few months ago:
1. Made in the USA
2. At least 10ga steel
3. Dial lock.
4. Several sizes to chose from.
5. CA DOJ approved.
6. Budget: $1000-$1500 max.
These are the things I wish I could have gotten on my Sturdy Safe but were not available or could'nt afford:
1. Interior lighting.
2. Electrical plug inside the safe.
3. Small drawer compartment for coins or other little stuff.

How about a decent sized safe that fits inside most common closets. In my house that would have to be maximum, including handles and dials, "24 deep. Keeping a safe out of sight behind a closet door is a good idea if possible IMO. Especially if you rent or have nosey room-mates.
I also like rifle racks in the center of the interior layout instead of left or right. Not many safe makers use this layout but if it were available I'd probably go for it.
Thanks for asking!



wow 10 ga steel is like .105 steel just the cost of that steel is about 1000.00 if you can make one like this i will take 4

need a littel more with between the deviders so that its not a pain to store scoped rifles. i bought a safe that clames 72 rifles however all my rifles are scoped.

capo
03-17-2011, 6:38 PM
Thanks for the responses, I will review them all tomorrow at the office and start narrowing down the similarities. The goal of course is to make something affordable for the masses that offers something unique and kickass. Someone mentioned REAL security...I have those, I have TL-15's, TL-30's, TL-30X6's, and TRTL-30X6's in stock...good luck trying to get into those sum*****es. But most gun owners don't want to shell out $5,000 - $10,000+ for a gun safe. If you do, lol, call me! I'll post a response tomorrow with some updates. I like some of the things I see here. Thanks.

gravedigger
03-17-2011, 7:27 PM
I don't see a problem with a 10K lb. Safe that is bolted down to a concrete pad. My beef with the gun show safes is that although they ARE pretty, and they offer a degree of fire protection, as a (former) certified welder who knows how they are built, breaking into one isn't all that tough to do when you know where to attack the weakest points.

Cokebottle
03-17-2011, 7:36 PM
Honest marketing.

A 12-gun safe should hold 12 rifles... not 5 rifles and 7 handguns.

Cokebottle
03-17-2011, 7:48 PM
Wife had a great idea.

Internal cellphone (customer specifies carrier/GSM/CDMA/3G/4G) that places a call to your cellphone if someone attempts to open it with the incorrect combination, or if it is shaken or jarred violently.

Verizon is only $5/mo to add a device to your plan. I'd pay $60 a year to give my safe the capability to call me.

This would only be a fully functional option for safes with an electronic lock, otherwise it could only operate off of a shock sensor.

Ape
03-17-2011, 8:02 PM
I don't see a problem with a 10K lb. Safe that is bolted down to a concrete pad. My beef with the gun show safes is that although they ARE pretty, and they offer a degree of fire protection, as a (former) certified welder who knows how they are built, breaking into one isn't all that tough to do when you know where to attack the weakest points.

And how much would it cost to move one of these beasts? Much less to build it and still sell it at a profit? :confused:

Don;t get me wrong, I like your entusiasm towards true security, but if someone was going to spend that much money on a safe, why wouldn't they just put that money towards a safe room or bunker?
To me it seems you're crossing a line of practicality, marketability and functionality compared to whats available in safes already matched next to safe rooms and bunkers.

That being said, how about safe doors made to fit interior door spaces?
Or perhapes safes designed to fit in corners (triangular in shape).
But the best idea of all (to me) is Cokebottles wifes idea about cell phones.

beaster
03-17-2011, 8:59 PM
And how much would it cost to move one of these beasts? Much less to build it and still sell it at a profit? :confused:

Don;t get me wrong, I like your entusiasm towards true security, but if someone was going to spend that much money on a safe, why wouldn't they just put that money towards a safe room or bunker?
To me it seems you're crossing a line of practicality, marketability and functionality compared to whats available in safes already matched next to safe rooms and bunkers.

That being said, how about safe doors made to fit interior door spaces?
Or perhapes safes designed to fit in corners (triangular in shape).
But the best idea of all (to me) is Cokebottles wifes idea about cell phones.

corner safes:
http://www.cabelas.com/gun-safes-homak-10-gun-corner-cabinet.shtml
http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/productdetails/526
http://www.securallproducts.com/corner_gun_cabinet_detail.asp?item=Corner%20Gun%20 Cabinet%2011%20Gun%202%20Shelves&feature=Carpet%20Lined&dscr=GUN

BigFatGuy
03-17-2011, 9:47 PM
otherwise it could only operate off of a shock sensor.

and/or a 3-axis tilt sensor... you could also include a GPS receiver.

TKM
03-17-2011, 9:52 PM
I've got a friend who likes the whole RV thing and wants a lay-down gun safe that will fit under a mattress. I looked and couldn't find anything suitable.

Probably need pneumatic struts for the lid. Fire resistance too. RVs tend to burn for some reason.

maderashooter
03-17-2011, 10:02 PM
I've got a friend who likes the whole RV thing and wants a lay-down gun safe that will fit under a mattress. I looked and couldn't find anything suitable.

Probably need pneumatic struts for the lid. Fire resistance too. RVs tend to burn for some reason.

Well good news is safe will probably drop out before it gets to hot as the support burn out always cooler the lower you go

Anchors
03-17-2011, 10:53 PM
and/or a 3-axis tilt sensor... you could also include a GPS receiver.

GPS would be a good feature for safes that weigh less than like 400 pounds.

Like a hidden Lo-Jack for your gun safe.

gravedigger
03-17-2011, 10:58 PM
And how much would it cost to move one of these beasts? Much less to build it and still sell it at a profit? :confused:

I just might find out once I settle in free America!

Don't get me wrong, I like your enthusiasm towards true security, but if someone was going to spend that much money on a safe, why wouldn't they just put that money towards a safe room or bunker?

Because people move.

To me it seems you're crossing a line of practicality, marketability and functionality compared to whats available in safes already matched next to safe rooms and bunkers.

Something like what I suggest would not be purchased by the bachelor who apartment hops. It would be for the estate home that will be passed on to generations of descendants, or the guy who wants his safe to be there, undisturbed, come Hell or high water.

1377
03-18-2011, 2:34 AM
a handgun safe in the door! That's a great idea!

As for 10 ga. or 12 ga. Etc., all of it is unattractive to me. Why not make a REAL safe, with 3" thick hard steel walls, top, and bottom? Make the door cast iron and for God's sake ... Make a safe with FOUR anchor points instead of two. That two point anchor nonsense is a joke. If a safe can be rocked, eventually the (n) gauge sheet metal the bolt heads are relying on will fail and the safe can be torn from the floor. A bolted down safe shouldn't rock!

If I start making safes in Kentucky, my safes will make current offerings look like the little gray tin box Aunt aedna uses at her garage sales!

If the safe is anchored down correctly its not going to rock. If you think that two holes aren't sufficient, than pull out the drill and drill to more holes.

capo
03-18-2011, 8:17 AM
http://socalsafe.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/help-me-design-a-gun-safe/

Guys, please do me a favor so my bosses can see your wants and needs and post it on our company blog, I just made a new post about this and want to have your feedback shared. Thanks!

Cokebottle
03-18-2011, 6:22 PM
and/or a 3-axis tilt sensor... you could also include a GPS receiver.
GPS doesn't work without an outdoor antenna.

Cokebottle
03-18-2011, 6:28 PM
I've got a friend who likes the whole RV thing and wants a lay-down gun safe that will fit under a mattress. I looked and couldn't find anything suitable.
I've seen underbed safes with gas-strut doors, but I can't remember where, and from what I do remember, they would not be suitable for an RV, though you may be able to adapt one.

I seem to remember it was a dual-cabinet safe. It formed the pedestal of the bed (replaced the frame and box spring).
The top used two mattresses, and the frame allowed each mattress to lift up for access.

Cokebottle
03-18-2011, 6:30 PM
Because people move.
Something like what I suggest would not be purchased by the bachelor who apartment hops. It would be for the estate home that will be passed on to generations of descendants
You just contradicted yourself.

In that example, a safe room would be perfect.

Cokebottle
03-18-2011, 6:35 PM
http://socalsafe.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/help-me-design-a-gun-safe/

Guys, please do me a favor so my bosses can see your wants and needs and post it on our company blog, I just made a new post about this and want to have your feedback shared. Thanks!
Done

Ape
03-18-2011, 7:44 PM
You just contradicted yourself.

In that example, a safe room would be perfect.

Beat me to it. ;)

Again, I like your enthusiasm gravedigger....But I don't think the market for something like that would be very large? I just don't envision many people looking for a 10,000 dollar (or more) safe that holds 20 guns? I hope I'm wrong though, and you make lots of money on it. ;)

ElvenSoul
03-18-2011, 9:01 PM
Ever seen the Tardis on Dr. Who?

TKM
03-18-2011, 9:08 PM
I've seen underbed safes with gas-strut doors, but I can't remember where, and from what I do remember, they would not be suitable for an RV, though you may be able to adapt one.

I seem to remember it was a dual-cabinet safe. It formed the pedestal of the bed (replaced the frame and box spring).
The top used two mattresses, and the frame allowed each mattress to lift up for access.
I know what you are talking about, way too big for what I had in mind.

It's a niche market that nobody has filled yet. Old/retired cops like that whole RV thing. No sharing a hotel with "them", and you get to bring your stuff.

I'm thinking 50x18x8 so there will be enough room for a frame to fill in around the safe and still fit under an RV mattress. A couple of ARs/shotguns and a half dozen pistols should fit easy.

BigFatGuy
03-18-2011, 9:17 PM
GPS doesn't work without an outdoor antenna.

if it's a 3g phone system (as previously discussed), you can use the cell towers to create a GPS like effect.

kingazteca
03-18-2011, 10:01 PM
I've got a friend who likes the whole RV thing and wants a lay-down gun safe that will fit under a mattress. I looked and couldn't find anything suitable.

Probably need pneumatic struts for the lid. Fire resistance too. RVs tend to burn for some reason.

Check the local Socal gun show, theres a new product thats called: Monster vault. Its flat and on rollers perfect for under bed. In fact thats what its for.

kingazteca
03-18-2011, 10:10 PM
I myself will be picking up an fully made American gun safe from http://sportsmansteelsafes.com/ tomorrow. It's a bit more, but they seem well made on-site and can be made custom to your needs. I'm nervous about my purchase since this is my first safe. I see other safe from turner's that are bigger and cheaper but I like to think that they there not as well made and make up for it with other bells and whistle (lights, shiny paint, electrical outlet). Who knows, i've try to research this as best as I can.

Cokebottle
03-18-2011, 10:20 PM
I myself will be picking up an fully made American gun safe from http://sportsmansteelsafes.com/ tomorrow. It's a bit more, but they seem well made on-site and can be made custom to your needs. I'm nervous about my purchase since this is my first safe. I see other safe from turner's that are bigger and cheaper but I like to think that they there not as well made and make up for it with other bells and whistle (lights, shiny paint, electrical outlet). Who knows, i've try to research this as best as I can.
Do a search here on Calguns before you write that check and pick it up.

Every now and then one of their shills pops in and makes them look like the best safes ever made, but a lot of people have had issues.

kingazteca
03-18-2011, 10:36 PM
See what I mean the information is almost overwhelming. Well any information is always helpful and appreciated.

capo
03-19-2011, 7:20 AM
See what I mean the information is almost overwhelming. Well any information is always helpful and appreciated.

Yeah man, awesome response from everyone, very much appreciated. Still if you guys can, please put comments on our company blog in the post I made about this so the powers that be can see them. Gives me some market research to point to when I suggest features: http://socalsafe.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/help-me-design-a-gun-safe/

Thanks guys!

Ape
03-19-2011, 7:38 AM
Done.

ducktapeguy
03-19-2011, 8:29 AM
I've seen underbed safes with gas-strut doors, but I can't remember where, and from what I do remember, they would not be suitable for an RV, though you may be able to adapt one.

I seem to remember it was a dual-cabinet safe. It formed the pedestal of the bed (replaced the frame and box spring).
The top used two mattresses, and the frame allowed each mattress to lift up for access.

I believe you're talking about Bedbunker

http://www.bedgunsafe.com/

I like the idea, but the cost is prohibitive.

Just to add my $.02, I've been looking for another safe and there is are very few options for people who can't use a standard gun safe for various reasons

1) In-wall rifle safes. V-line is pretty much the only company making one
2) Modular safes like the Zanotti
3) In ground gun safes. I have an idea to make it more gun friendly, but not sure if it'll work.
4) Shallow closet safes. Something around a 10-12" depth that can be put in the back of closet


Kingazteca,

What company makes the monster vault?

bsg
03-19-2011, 9:05 AM
a wish that would be wonderful to have fulfilled; a safe that "expands" when the needs of the owner dictates. it seems the one universal result of putting things into a safe is... a safe that fills up. i have known a few gun owners that "grew into" their safes; most gun owners i know "grew out of" their safes.

so... perhaps an "add on" feature to an existing safe that is made for that model/line of safe.

toby
03-19-2011, 10:46 AM
What about a pull out rifle rack? instead of having to remove rifles to retrieve the ones in the back, simply pull out the whole rack and all are at disposal??? HHHMMM this would have to be quite a sturdy mechanism in order to hold the weight, but could surely be constructed.

WWDHD?
03-19-2011, 1:17 PM
Yeah, I've got a pull-out spice rack in my kitchen cabinet, why not build a heavy duty version for rifles inside of a safe?

Revoman
03-19-2011, 5:09 PM
What about a pull out rifle rack?

That's exactly what I was thinking, I suppose the same could be done for handguns as well....kind of a drawer affair? I also think that all safes should automatically come with dehumidifiers, electrical outlets and lights inside. Mirrors are also a good thing to be able to see items hidden from a frontal view. A water-tight seal would be great for flooding and fire.

I also like the quick access door idea for emergencies. Something that is separate from the safe itself, inside the door so if violated no other firearms can be had through that opening.

Cokebottle
03-19-2011, 5:53 PM
What about a pull out rifle rack? instead of having to remove rifles to retrieve the ones in the back, simply pull out the whole rack and all are at disposal??? HHHMMM this would have to be quite a sturdy mechanism in order to hold the weight, but could surely be constructed.
Stack-On makes a gun cabinet with this feature. Would be simple to put the same mechanism into a safe.

It's not uncommon... many offices have pull-out file cabinets, and they support a lot more weight than a couple of dozen rifles.

Cokebottle
03-19-2011, 5:56 PM
Mirrors are also a good thing to be able to see items hidden from a frontal view.
Mirrors are also good from a security aspect.

Bad Guy is in your home. You have kids, so you can't leave a "nightstand gun" out while you sleep.
The last thing you want is for the BG to come up behind you while opening your safe and accessing the contents.

Convex mirror on the door, convex mirror on the rear wall.

naimad
03-19-2011, 7:47 PM
I've got a friend who likes the whole RV thing and wants a lay-down gun safe that will fit under a mattress. I looked and couldn't find anything suitable.

Probably need pneumatic struts for the lid. Fire resistance too. RVs tend to burn for some reason.

http://bedgunsafe.com/

TKM
03-19-2011, 8:20 PM
http://bedgunsafe.com/

Thanks, it looks like they've updated their line of safes since the last time I looked.

VytamenC Tactical
03-19-2011, 9:22 PM
is there any way you could put a beer tap on the front under the lock?

TurboChrisB
03-19-2011, 10:06 PM
THIS!



corner safes:
http://www.cabelas.com/gun-safes-homak-10-gun-corner-cabinet.shtml
http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/productdetails/526
http://www.securallproducts.com/corner_gun_cabinet_detail.asp?item=Corner%20Gun%20 Cabinet%2011%20Gun%202%20Shelves&feature=Carpet%20Lined&dscr=GUN

WWDHD?
03-19-2011, 11:28 PM
OP, are you now sorry you asked? GPS this and beer tap that and we're now spiraling out of control.

Ape
03-19-2011, 11:36 PM
OP, are you now sorry you asked? GPS this and beer tap that and we're now spiraling out of control.

Whats so far fetched about GPS?

billped
03-20-2011, 8:06 AM
I would like a safe manufacture to completely throw out the solutions from the present/past and rethink what we are attempting to do. It's my personal opinion that alternative solutions exist and we just aren't considering them. The bed bunker and in-wall safes are great examples of breakthough thinking, as is the "lazy susan" safe. BTW, I have a traditional safe which is the vanilla ice cream of solutions - appeals modestly to every one but is the favorite of only a tiny minority. We have too many suppliers of vanilla - if someone makes me strawberry or chocolate they will stand out and make a ton of money.

Here is what I am trying to do in *my* personal descending order of importance, along with some comments for each:
* Store weapons
* Prevent my kids, friends, and neighbors from accessing them
* Allow the easy transfer of weapons in and out (i.e. maximize ease of use)
* Protect my weapons from the elements (moisture, mostly)
* Maximize reliability (I have a manual lock)
* Minimize cost (I spent ~$1000, a midrange price for a midrange objective)
* Protect the guns from the bad guys (12 gauge steel is fine with me)
* Hide or camouflage the container so folks don't know I have a safe (I have a hidden room)
* Display the guns, show them off
* Maximize the looks of the safe (scratched? fine)

I am probably missing some items.

OP - gather requirements such as what I listed, poll people to find out their relative importance, break people into groups where each group has a similar set of requirements and importance, then design a safe to appeal to those groups. Now balance the above with the current offerings, build the product, and you have a hit on your hands.


Bill

molonghorn
03-20-2011, 1:29 PM
...

It'd also be interesting to integrate cameras and/or intelligent locking systems and Internet-accessibility - e.g., what if the safe could send a message to a server somewhere every time the safe door opened, with a picture of the person opening the safe and the ID of the user (derived from the combination?) .. and a picture every time someone tries to open the safe with a bad combination . . . or even if that info wasn't sent anywhere, it could be stored on memory inside the safe (perhaps in a double-locked compartment). It'd also be nice if it were easy to remotely monitor the temperature and humidity inside the safe. (Actually, that's already pretty easy with something like the MicroGoose from http://www.itwatchdogs.com/default.aspx, but it could be factory preinstalled)

With any ITWatchDogs environmental monitor you can actually interface up to 4 IP Web Cameras (just plug in the URL on the web interface). What you want to do is download the Console Aggregator Lite Software (Free version) - this will run on a PC and log images every minute or so. If you want to get alerts when the cabinet is opened (can also set alerts w/ ITW products for specified time frames during the day), then you would need a MiniGoose II, a 5-port splitter, CCAT (Analog to digital converter), Door Position sensor and it already has a built-in temperature sensor. Check out www.itwatchdogs.com/products.pdf for pricing info for all ITW products.

If you want to see a demo with the cameras integrated, visit microgoose.com or minigoose.com.

You can also choose a higher end model for more on-board sensors like temp, humidity, airflow, light & sound...

Hope this helps.

^Mo
ITWatchDogs

easy
03-20-2011, 4:18 PM
Let's talk hinges. The secure kind, like on the inside. The usual problem is that they get in the way and take up interior space, ok one less long gun. The bigger problem is safe mobility. Interior hinged doors are not easily removed for transport.

Fix that, so that the door can be removed during transport and reinstalled by the user.

maderashooter
03-20-2011, 4:26 PM
Let's talk hinges. The secure kind, like on the inside. The usual problem is that they get in the way and take up interior space, ok one less long gun. The bigger problem is safe mobility. Interior hinged doors are not easily removed for transport.

Fix that, so that the door can be removed during transport and reinstalled by the user.

Whoa who is going to hold the 300 plus pound door while you install it

billped
03-20-2011, 6:20 PM
Let's talk hinges. The secure kind, like on the inside. The usual problem is that they get in the way and take up interior space, ok one less long gun. The bigger problem is safe mobility. Interior hinged doors are not easily removed for transport.

Fix that, so that the door can be removed during transport and reinstalled by the user.

The location of the hinges does not impact security. External hinges are preferred.


Bill

WWDHD?
03-20-2011, 9:50 PM
External hinges allow the door to open close to 180 degrees. Internal usually 90 or so. Matters to some, not to others.

lairdb
03-20-2011, 10:02 PM
I'll get in on it -- I don't want a "safe" (i.e. a traditional tall and narrow box.) I want:
- an RSC,
- TL-15 might be nice, but I'm not sure I'd pay for it,
- Class 350 would be nice,
- in a *drawers* form factor.

Think of a tool chest, like this (http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=storage&item_ID=79017&group_ID=20546&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog) but with 55" or 60" drawers (and no wheels, obviously.)

capo
03-21-2011, 8:22 AM
Lots of info here guys, thanks. Please post here if you can - http://socalsafe.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/help-me-design-a-gun-safe/

I'm reading, taking notes, and pondering. I will let you guys know how it pans out, thanks!

capo
03-21-2011, 12:29 PM
Here is a question for you guys...

If I make custom interior to make one of my TL-30's into a gun safe, would you guys spend the kind of money it takes to get one of those? For example, my International Fortress F-5524 LW retails for $4,999. I normally sell it for about $3,500.

It is a Underwriter's Laboratories rated TL-30 safe, has a two hour fire rating, weights about 2250lbs., and is inherently bad***** and will make all but the best safe crackers in the world wet their pants trying to get into it. Interior dimensions are 55 H x 24 W x 20 D.

Just taking a guesstimate here I'm thinking I could do a custom gun interior for around $500...maybe more, maybe less, I don't know since I've not yet looked into it. The question is, would you guys pay that kind of price for a safe that you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, will keep your guns and any other things you want to put into it - jewelry, cash, important papers, family heirlooms, nearly absolutely secure?

Pricewise, I know I can keep it hyper-competitive against other UL rated gun safes...I just wonder what the market looks like for them because I can spit them out all day long...

bsg
03-21-2011, 1:45 PM
External hinges allow the door to open close to 180 degrees. Internal usually 90 or so. Matters to some, not to others.


matters to me; i prefer external.

ducktapeguy
03-21-2011, 1:51 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I can't picture myself spending that kind of money for it. I'd like to have something that secure, but it's probably overkill for my needs. The odds of a professional burglar with the right tools and knowledge trying to break into my safe is very minimal. However a two hour fire rating would definitely get me interested because house fires are something that can happen to anybody. If I did have that kind of money where I'd need that much protection, I'd be probably looking into a built in vault with a better volume/price ratio.

The idea of a drawer is something that I was looking at. Either a couple of drawers or maybe a bottom drawer with a door on top, kinda like a refrigerator. Or make a camouflage safe that looks like a refrigerator or hot water heater so it wouldn't look out of place in the garage. That would save me the trouble of buying an old fridge to hollow out, and all the fire insulation could be on the outside so it won't take up valuable space inside.

BigFatGuy
03-21-2011, 1:59 PM
my house was robbed once, and the jackasses went through my fridge and bar first. a fridge is not a good place to hide guns.

Now, a water heater...

ducktapeguy
03-21-2011, 3:28 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend a fridge to store guns, but rather use it as a disguise for a safe it's not so obvious to someone looking in. I'm thinking mostly for people who keep their safe in the garage. A fridge or hot water heater or heating unit would not arouse curiosity like a safe would. I thought about disguising it as a toolbox, but a large toolbox is probably even more tempting to a thief than a safe. Even if a thief were to find it during a robbery, at least they wouldn't have any prior knowledge of where it is and what type it is, so it's less likely they would be prepared to deal with it.

This idea wouldn't work so well if you had it inside your bedroom.

jm13690
03-21-2011, 5:05 PM
Really what I want is a decent safe that is under 1500 including shipping. Give me fireproof 45 min, mechanical lock, thick steel a good amount of bolts, and I know that I cant get in it with a crowbar in less then an hour.

TKM
03-27-2011, 12:18 PM
Safes are like motorcycle helmets. They are only worth what you put in them.

How many thousand dollar pistols do you own?

How many thousand dollar rifles? Optics? I've got bipods that cost more than some nice pistols.

Four safes and thinking about number five.

bsg
03-27-2011, 12:51 PM
stash box/locked compartment within the safe; assures privacy area even from other authorized users of the safe; primary safe owner/user retains some space that is exclusively his/hers.

billped
03-27-2011, 8:06 PM
Safes are like motorcycle helmets. They are only worth what you put in them.

How many thousand dollar pistols do you own?

How many thousand dollar rifles? Optics? I've got bipods that cost more than some nice pistols.

Four safes and thinking about number five.

There are alternatives that may in fact be better. I, for one, have insurance that covers my guns and is far cheaper than the safe I bought. To continue your motorcycle analogy, you made yourself a bit safer by wearing a helmet - I made myself a lot safer by choosing to drive a car.


Bill

daveinwoodland
03-27-2011, 8:24 PM
I always thought a rotating internal carousel would be a great way to store the long guns that and in my opinion all safes should have internal lighting from the factory.

BigFatGuy
03-27-2011, 8:27 PM
What about enclosing the digital keypad behind a metal access panel? if all the electronics are enclosed in a metal shielding that would serve as protection against the theoretical EMP burst

NytWolf
03-27-2011, 8:54 PM
To me, the safe itself isn't what matters to me because most safes already have the typical features. To me, what makes a difference is the practicality of storing guns. With that said, it's the racks and accessories inside that matter.

Most gun safes (I mean the half-way decent ones, not the cabinets) are fireproof in some way, have decent locking mechanisms, and are not readily pried open. What makes a difference is its ability to store firearms, jewelry, important documents.

I want an interior that provides good storage yet still provides easy access to all the guns. And no, other than below, I don't really have any ideas, because if I did, I would have built it myself, because the interior is something that I can do myself with a couple hours and some craftsmanship.

My idea is have a middle section for long guns, because it sucks to have to reach to one side or the other to grab a long gun. Then have shelves on either side for drawers or just for storing other things. Have a top shelf area for ammo. It would be nice to have one shelf or drawer for hanging folders too. Hmmm ... I guess I'm giving myself some ideas.

capo
03-28-2011, 1:17 PM
Great info, just wanted to chime in, we are working on this on our end. As I have news and updates I will post. I am trying to work with Kestryll to perhaps co-brand the safe in the Calguns name and donate a percentage of the profit to the Calguns Foundation but I haven't heard back from him yet. If any of you know him personally, have him contact me, we live in the same neighborhood!

bsg
03-29-2011, 10:33 PM
wish you the best with this project.

theduece
03-30-2011, 8:08 PM
Ok as a resident fng I have nothing to add, but i do have a question.

Why store the ammo above the rifles? heat rises ammo is heavy wouldnt you be better storing it all on bottom?

Ape
03-30-2011, 8:27 PM
Ok as a resident fng I have nothing to add, but i do have a question.

Why store the ammo above the rifles? heat rises ammo is heavy wouldnt you be better storing it all on bottom?

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I was still using gun safes I stored (some of) my ammo on the bottom because it's so heavy. So the floor was the best option to keep it from collapsing a shelf onto my guns.

sunwelding
03-31-2011, 11:20 AM
www.sunweldingsafes.com offers all American made products. They manufacture all of their safes in Southern California. They have solid steel doors ranging from 3/16" to 3/8" and they offer custom thicknesses.

toby
03-31-2011, 2:50 PM
I would never store ammo in my gun safe. Besides there's no room.

BigFatGuy
03-31-2011, 8:31 PM
I would never store ammo in my gun safe. Besides there's no room.

You don't keep ANY of your guns in the safe ready to "go", or with a magazine ready to load?

I'm not questioning your honest, I've just to rarely heard people who didn't do one of the two...

The Electrician
03-31-2011, 8:36 PM
If you are serious, and your company wants to do something special, contact me. I'll meet with your company executives if possible, to talk about royalties :rolleyes: on an idea I have. I will be working on it myself (among other things) when I move to Kentucky, and I may seek a patent on it, or design it as an add-on accessory that companies like yours can purchase from me, but I believe that a safe manufacturer which is already set up for production of steel products is better suited to research and develop it.

There is one problem that everyone faces when they own a safe. Guesses? :D

I believe I have the solution! PM sent.

My guess is that they rather be buying a new gun!!!!

The Electrician
03-31-2011, 8:37 PM
www.sunweldingsafes.com offers all American made products. They manufacture all of their safes in Southern California. They have solid steel doors ranging from 3/16" to 3/8" and they offer custom thicknesses.

You guys got anything around $500?

Cokebottle
03-31-2011, 8:39 PM
www.sunweldingsafes.com (http://www.sunweldingsafes.com) offers all American made products. They manufacture all of their safes in Southern California. They have solid steel doors ranging from 3/16" to 3/8" and they offer custom thicknesses.
You just spammed a thread started by a man who works for a safe company and is asking for help in designing a new gun safe.

Not cool man.

Ape
03-31-2011, 9:18 PM
You just spammed a thread started by a man who works for a safe company and is asking for help in designing a new gun safe.

Not cool man.

Beat me to it!
I read that and couldn't even think of anything nice to say! :eek:

Cokebottle
03-31-2011, 9:33 PM
Beat me to it!
I read that and couldn't even think of anything nice to say! :eek:
Guy's been here for a year, but his low profile kept him under the radar... but two posts today (both shilling his web site).

Nice looking safes and specs, but no prices listed (call).
But from looking at his prices on USED safes.... Meh.

Ape
04-01-2011, 10:09 AM
Guy's been here for a year, but his low profile kept him under the radar... but two posts today (both shilling his web site).

Nice looking safes and specs, but no prices listed (call).
But from looking at his prices on USED safes.... Meh.

Well I don't have a problem with him pushing his products.....But to come into another vendors thread only to push his stuff........Doesn't make for good company PR in my book.
Matter of fact, that's a great way to make someone like me NEVER buy his products.

capo
04-01-2011, 11:07 AM
Well, different people go about business in different ways. C'est la vie...

That said, I'm still making progress here and coming up with cool ideas every day. Still trying to get in contact with the CGF about co-branding a safe, but even if they don't I think I will still work out a way to donate a portion of the profit to the CGF anyway. I will keep you guys updated. This is of course a long process but I'm excited about it. Thanks for the support and information!

Ape
04-01-2011, 2:41 PM
Good save on taking the high road capo. ;) :thumbsup:

capo
04-01-2011, 5:41 PM
Thanks Ape.

I bought a domain yesterday that I will use for gun safes. In the very least, if I can't get the CGF to co-brand with me, I will have a Calguns redemption code that'll give Calgunners a discount, and will also donate a portion to the CGF. I want to support my peeps, the CGF has done a lot for us and we're all in the gun rights fight together you know?

Ape
04-01-2011, 9:16 PM
Thanks Ape.

I bought a domain yesterday that I will use for gun safes. In the very least, if I can't get the CGF to co-brand with me, I will have a Calguns redemption code that'll give Calgunners a discount, and will also donate a portion to the CGF. I want to support my peeps, the CGF has done a lot for us and we're all in the gun rights fight together you know?

:thumbsup:

Hot Brass
04-02-2011, 7:54 AM
JMHO, but 10ga steel is a joke. Start with 1/4" steel plate, and we can go from there.

WWDHD?
04-02-2011, 10:15 AM
More steel adds to the cost considerably. Sure we would all love to have steel a foot thick in our safes but once you go over the $1000-1500 price you lose a lot of potential customers. Your only going to make money on this deal if you sell lots of safes (like Liberty). When I was shopping for a gunsafe 10ga was the minimum I was willing to buy. I know, not impossible to cut into but will stop most attacks and adds enough weight to the safe to make stealing/knocking over the safe difficult in most cases. A reasonable amount of security for a reasonable price is what most people are looking for IMO. A decent interior and some lighting don't hurt either.

Ape
04-02-2011, 12:26 PM
You also have to consider the weight issue when going with heavier steel.
Not everyone has a concrete floor to bolt it to for one.
And secondly, moving the safe to it's permanent location weighs heavily (no pun intended) on the safe buying decision.

I have no figures to back up my thoughts, but I would guess that 90% of safe owners want a happy medium between safety and cost. I mean, we'd all love to have a safe room with a huge vault door like Hestons. But most people don't have the means or space for such things.

capo
04-06-2011, 9:02 AM
Guys just wanted to drop some updates. We're thinking about doing four or five different levels of safe. Some will be very basic in terms of security and fire protection and more based on keeping out 1) unprepared burglars and 2) kids. These will be relatively inexpensive targeting the $800 - $1000 range but still hold a considerable amount of firearms. The others will offer up a lot more security and fire protection but of course will be more costly, closer to the $1200 - $2000 range.

What I've gathered here and numerous other venues is that what is important in a gun safe is truly a mixture of 'enough' protection and 'the right price'. For a lot of people, the right price is #1. My goal is to meet that right price without giving up too much protection. That's the challenge, so this is why we're going to do numerous styles so we have something for everyone.

Below are my responses to some of your suggestions in no particular order.

• one or two handgun safe in the door
o MOLLE door organizer
• Made in the USA
o Adds significantly to cost
• CA DOJ approved
o May add significantly to cost
• Budget: $1000-$1500 max
o Doable
• Interior lighting
o Doable
• Electrical plug inside the safe
o Doable
• Small drawer compartment for coins or other little stuff
o Doable
• I also like rifle racks in the center of the interior layout instead of left or right
o Doable, but will cut down on rifle storage
• how about putting in a decently thick gauge steel partition/shelf into the safe, to separate the safe into a "gun" side and an "ammo" side. That way, if the safe should get hot enough to cook off the ammo, the firearms are a bit better protected?
o Doable in some form depending on interior layout
• My biggest gripe about my safes is that my short long guns are too short for their racks (yea, I can put them on blocks) and I have to break down my 60" rifles just to fit them in the racks.
o Can be solved w/ adjustable racks, doable
• assemble on location safe
o Doable
• at least 3 locking bolts one 3 sides
o Doable
• Honest marketing. A 12-gun safe should hold 12 rifles... not 5 rifles and 7 handguns.
o Doable
• What about a pull out rifle rack
o May add significantly to cost
• Mirrors are also good from a security aspect
o Doable
• Protect my weapons from the elements (moisture, mostly)
o Doable, could come with dehumidifier, no significant cost increase
• Minimize cost (I spent ~$1000, a midrange price for a midrange objective)
o We’ll do our best
• However a two hour fire rating would definitely get me interested because house fires are something that can happen to anybody.
o 2 hours will add significantly to cost, but a fire rating is doable
• stash box/locked compartment within the safe
o Doable
• To me, the safe itself isn't what matters to me because most safes already have the typical features. To me, what makes a difference is the practicality of storing guns. With that said, it's the racks and accessories inside that matter.
o Agreed
• A reasonable amount of security for a reasonable price is what most people are looking for IMO.
o Agreed

I still have not heard from anyone at CGF or CGN about partnering up. One way or the other we're going to donate a portion of the profit to the CGF but it'd be nice to be able to connect with someone! :eek:

Stand by, this will be a long project but it's definitely on!

WWDHD?
04-06-2011, 9:45 AM
Your on the right track. Security and piece of mind when your away from home is what it all comes down to with a gunsafe IMO. Good luck with this project.

Cokebottle
04-06-2011, 5:17 PM
Looks awesome.

The DOJ thing really isn't that big of a deal, but yes, it will likely increase the cost. If you look at the Gun Safe Affidavit, there are two ways to legally check "Yes":

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf
1. A gun safe that is able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage, and is listed as an Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Residential Security Container. A UL Residential Security Container will bear a mark identifying itself as meeting the UL Residential Security Container requirements.

2. A gun safe that meets all of the following standards:
(a) Shall be able to fully contain firearms and provide for their secure storage.
(b) Shall have a locking system consisting of at minimum a mechanical or electronic combination lock. The mechanical or electronic combination lock utilized by the safe shall have at least 10,000 possible combinations consisting of a minimum three numbers, letters, or symbols. The lock shall be protected by a case-hardened (Rc 60+) drill-resistant steel plate, or drill-resistant material of equivalent strength.
(c) Boltwork shall consist of a minimum of three steel locking bolts of at least ½ inch thickness that intrude from the door of the safe into the body of the safe or from the body of the safe into the door of the safe, which are operated by a separate handle and secured by the lock.
(d) A gun safe shall be capable of repeated use. The exterior walls shall be constructed of a minimum 12gauge thick steel for a single-walled safe, or the sum of the steel walls shall add up to at least .100 inches for safes with two walls. Doors shall be constructed of a minimum one layer of 7-gauge steel plate reinforced construction or at least two layers of a minimum 12-gauge steel compound construction.
(e) Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door. Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler’s lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.

I certify that the safe will accommodate the firearm(s) I am taking delivery on ________________.The interesting thing is, neither of these affirmation statements say anything about being on the DOJ list!

The next section of the affidavit covers DOJ-approved "lock boxes":
(This affidavit applies only to lock boxes listed on the Roster of Firearms Safety Devices Certified for Sale and is not valid for any other type of firearms safety device. Firearms Dealer: This affidavit is only valid when accompanied by a receipt.)
I own and possess a (Make)_________________________ (Model)________________________ lock box that is listed on the
Roster of Firearms Safety Devices Certified for Sale that will accommodate the firearm(s) I am taking delivery of on (Date)________________. The DOJ-certified lock box was not presented at the time the firearm was acquired because the lock box was permanently affixed at some other location or too large and/or heavy to present at the time of acquisition.
I declare under penalty of perjury that all statements made in this affidavit are true and complete.The interesting thing about this....

We've always been told that the "lock box" receipt had to be less than 30 days old, same as the child-safe lock, but the affidavit does not indicate that.
From the wording of the affidavit (bolded part), that is not true, and also from the bolded part, this is the section that would be used to cover a full-sized safe that is on the list.

Regardless, your safe would meet the requirements of the affidavit if it meets the requirements of either (1) or (2) in the top section without needing to be listed on the DOJ's approved list.

capo
04-06-2011, 6:52 PM
Yeah I read up on the DOJ dealio today and emailed them as well to be 110% sure we can make the claim that it is DOJ compliant. I don't want to say it is if it isn't. But I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be.