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View Full Version : Chabot, April 16-17 2011


gorblimey
03-11-2011, 2:11 AM
I'm signed up, going to use a 22LR with irons. Hoping to see some CGN folks there.

docsmileyface
03-11-2011, 9:07 AM
I signed my wife and I up. Picked up two Marlin 795s to turn into training rifles for the weekend - cost about as much as ammo for the ARs would have and a good excuse to buy some guns! Pretty much this class is for my wife - she has an AR with a holographic sight but I want her to get training on the fundamentals and iron sights as well. I've tried training her but she says I'm too mean. :P

bobup
03-12-2011, 12:30 PM
My wife and sons will be joining me at the April Appleseed @ Chabot

son_of_a_gunny
03-14-2011, 6:11 PM
I will be there with my son.

Eljay
03-16-2011, 2:48 PM
I'll be there Sunday only. Hopefully it will actually happen - they canceled the last one with no notice - drove out there in the rain and was told it wasn't happening.

cmichini
03-16-2011, 4:53 PM
I'm hoping to make it there.

I just got some tech sights for a 10/22. Working on some sling swivels for the stock and I should be GTG.

I have another 10/22 and an Anschutz 164 as well so I'm going to see if I can get my brother/wife/nephew/neice out there (of course it can only be 2 of them unless they buy rifles soon).

Waiting on some business travel confirms before I register.

Can't wait!

as_rocketman
03-16-2011, 10:31 PM
The shoot is definitely happening...

What happened last time was the range couldn't locate all of the RWVA insurance papers on the day of the shoot. Chabot is under an awful lot of political pressure from folks who want to close down firing ranges, so they can't afford to take any chances, no matter how slight. Can't really blame them at all for being so careful.

Anyway, this has been fixed, and I can put you in touch with the shoot boss if there are any lingering concerns.

Eljay
03-17-2011, 9:08 AM
I think my main concern is that's the fourth or fifth version I've gotten of why the shoot didn't happen from various Appleseed people. It doesn't inspire confidence. And this is the first I've heard of the *range* not being able to "locate" something, before it was always admitting that Appleseed had screwed up the paperwork. Interesting revisionist history going on here.

Who's the shoot boss for the April shoot?

Rock6.3
03-17-2011, 9:52 AM
The problem was with insurance papers.
The problem has been resolved.
We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Eljay
03-17-2011, 9:56 AM
The problem was with insurance papers.
The problem has been resolved.
We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

So not helpful.

as_rocketman
03-17-2011, 8:28 PM
I think my main concern is that's the fourth or fifth version I've gotten of why the shoot didn't happen from various Appleseed people. It doesn't inspire confidence. And this is the first I've heard of the *range* not being able to "locate" something, before it was always admitting that Appleseed had screwed up the paperwork. Interesting revisionist history going on here.

Who's the shoot boss for the April shoot?

:confused: No revisionist history intended. The bottom line is the paperwork wasn't all there -- I don't know if our coordinator forgot something in the range agreement, or the insurance company sent the wrong year's form or sent only half of it, it didn't all come through, got lost... Usually these things can be worked in real time. But the details don't matter. At the end of the day it wasn't all there, which makes it RWVA's fault. We goofed.

Fortunately it's an easy fix. The insurance is good for a year at a time and the new paperwork is in place.

The shoot boss for the April 16-17 shoot is Phil Terry, or "V" on the RWVA Forum. He posts here once in a while. Senior instructor and very together guy. I talked to him at the Piru shoot last weekend and we discussed the situation at Chabot. It's a solved problem. But, again, if you have extraordinary concerns, I can get you in touch with him.

Eljay
03-17-2011, 8:44 PM
But the details don't matter. At the end of the day it wasn't all there, which makes it RWVA's fault. We goofed.


That's more like it and very different than saying the range couldn't find the paperwork. At the time while the details kept shifting around (at the actual site the issue seemed to be geographic - the insurance paperwork sent to Chabot didn't include Alameda County) it was clear that Appleseed's a volunteer organization, and balls get dropped sometimes, and the approach is to learn from that and move forward. Which I'm cool with, which is why I'm trying again on the Sunday (I can't make the Saturday). Anyway, I appreciate the clarification.

re: the shoot boss - I was just curious as to if it was somebody I knew in person or by reputation.

as_rocketman
03-17-2011, 8:50 PM
Sounds good. By Sunday, should be darn sure the shoot's on... :D

Phil's a great guy. Born in the UK, became a US citizen because this country still respects civil rights. He has a unique perspective and a great take on Revolutionary history. I've worked with him a bunch. It'll be a great shoot.

Eljay
03-17-2011, 9:06 PM
Sounds good. By Sunday, should be darn sure the shoot's on... :D

I admit the thought had occurred to me. :D It will be interesting to do the second half - I've done Saturday before and it was a huge help.

Phil's a great guy. Born in the UK, became a US citizen because this country still respects civil rights. He has a unique perspective and a great take on Revolutionary history. I've worked with him a bunch. It'll be a great shoot.

Very cool. I just fired up some of his AARs on the Appleseed forums and he certainly is an engaging writer.

Eljay
04-12-2011, 8:20 AM
The Chabot shoot only has three slots left: http://www.eventbrite.com/event/1068025493

It had 50 originally so it looks like we'll have quite the turnout!

docsmileyface
04-15-2011, 4:42 PM
My printer is messed up. Do I need to print out the tickets, or will my name be on a list?

Eljay
04-15-2011, 4:45 PM
When I went there, there was a list, but they were also happy to see that I had my ticket printed...

gorblimey
04-16-2011, 1:05 AM
It's on like Equus africanus asinus Kong. Gotta get some shuteye...

docsmileyface
04-16-2011, 6:26 AM
see you guys in a couple hours

Eljay
04-16-2011, 7:59 AM
Have fun today, and see you all tomorrow!

docsmileyface
04-16-2011, 8:21 PM
got some pics from today, shot extra fast so I could get off the line and take some pictures

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00013.jpg

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00015.jpg

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00021.jpg

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00027.jpg

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00028.jpg

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00032.jpg
highest score of the day, didn't catch his name but he ended up shooting a 234 if I remember right. Thank god for the .30 cal rule, I ended up with a 213 the first AQT.

Eljay
04-16-2011, 9:10 PM
Nice shots! I like way you can see the holes on that last one.

Neezer
04-16-2011, 10:33 PM
Nice shots! I like way you can see the holes on that last one.

Thanks! This was my first appleseed, and I had a great time! Phil's storytelling was first class, and the marksmanship training was extremely helpful as I shot much better at the end of the day than at the beginning.

For my next appleseed, I will definitely bring sunscreen (as recommended in the official checklist of very important things to bring). My face is as red as the target!

docsmileyface
04-17-2011, 6:32 AM
My face is as red as the target!

Yep, definitely wearing a hat today!!

Eljay
04-17-2011, 7:20 AM
You know, if anybody's realizing they should have put on sunscreen, I'd hope they'd ask around. A lot of us pale types have a tube of the good stuff in their range bag somewhere. Just make sure you don't grab the TW-25B by mistake. Also look for people reapplying during lunch, using their car mirrors so they can make sure they don't miss anything.

bobup
04-17-2011, 10:49 AM
great pics! caught me and my clan in a couple of em.

The staff was great and the history that was brought out was fantastic. Details that may or may not have been taught when I was in school, but didn't remember (been awhile, like 40 years).

Eben was his name that had top score.....he was set up with shooting jacket and such plus a scope on his modded 10/22
He was on our right on the line, we were all in the "center" of the line

My family found that bolt actions are difficult to consistently shoot with under time constraints...semi-auto is the way to go and will be on my list of toys for the future. I also noticed my bolt was starting to get sticky by mid afternoon.
My oldest son was shooting his Win 75T, a long heavy barrel that wore him down about mid way through....

Twas a fun day all in all, and with vacation plans could not return on Sunday, can only do so much.

Sorry we didn't get to meet any of you, they don't give ya much in the way of down time to socialize

I will at least return in the future, can't say my wife and kids will, they feel pretty beat today

Hope ya all shoot your AQTs with high scores today
bob

Eljay
04-17-2011, 6:32 PM
The good news is that you missed some unfortunate weather - nothing too bad, but the mist never 100% burnt off.

Good time though, despite that and the occasional turkey delay. A bunch of people made rifleman and I imagine everybody learned something.

Eljay
04-17-2011, 7:35 PM
I just took a couple of quick cell phone shots, but...

http://www.eljay.org/ebay3/IMG_0769.jpg
Morning Fog

http://www.eljay.org/ebay3/IMG_0775.jpg
During lunch. Notice the wind.

gorblimey
04-17-2011, 8:04 PM
I grabbed an extra size Large shirt by mistake, and only realized at home that there were two as they came "unstuck". If someone's short a shirt, just PM me and I'll drop it in the mail.

1kiloGarand
04-17-2011, 8:17 PM
I shot Rifleman at the Appleseed at the Chabot Gunclub today. :)

It was really fun and the instructors were awesome. As a new shooter, I felt the lessons were thorough and helpful, and the atmosphere was very friendly. I can't imagine getting higher quality instructions for the money, and some thought provoking history lessons as well.

As promised to those who attended, attached is the triangular, 20 yard scaled Appleseed practice targets for use at the Chabot Gun Club.

If people want a differently scaled target, I could make them.

Have fun practicing for the next Appleseed!

[This post is duplicate of this one. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=422252) I'm new here, ok? :)

Eljay
04-17-2011, 8:22 PM
Thanks - that's a very helpful target!

1kiloGarand
04-17-2011, 8:41 PM
Hey, that's my chair in the picture :)

Eljay
04-17-2011, 8:49 PM
Early bird gets the rifleman patch?

docsmileyface
04-17-2011, 10:10 PM
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00034.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00072.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00074-1.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00075.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00076.jpg

more riflemen

docsmileyface
04-17-2011, 10:13 PM
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00045.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00054.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00053-1.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00079.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00056.jpg

calguns only lets me link 6 pics at a time - anyways, it was good meeting all of you. Thank you to the instructors, my wife learned a lot and we'll be back to tighten up her group. My apologies for us being in a hurry to leave, we had to make it to fairfield right quick to pick up our new german shorthair pointer puppy.

docsmileyface
04-17-2011, 10:18 PM
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00070.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00071.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00065.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00060.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00058.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/docrock184/DSC00085.jpg

badduggy
04-17-2011, 10:55 PM
congrats to all the new riflemen. i could only make it saturday and got a 195. i cant wait to try it again after practicing mag changes and a sitting position that works better for me.
awesome effort by the staff who are volunteers and come from all over the state to put these things on! thanks again you guys.

afrancke
04-17-2011, 11:25 PM
I liked the misty weather personally - it was a lot nicer than baking in the not-actually-all-that-hot (but sure felt like it!) Saturday sun.

This was a great shoot and though I got good tips from a number of the instructors, I thought Phil T. was an outstanding leader overall.

For those contemplating going in the future:

1) Don't contemplate. Go. If you have not had formal rifle marksmanship training before, you will no doubt learn a lot of fundamentals that you don't already know from shooting pistols or screwing around on the rifle range at random that are both vital to successful rifle shooting and that will set you up for years of focused range time in the future. I'm sure there are other shooting approaches but it helps to master something before branching out.

2) Print out the "helpful stuff to bring" list and bring most of it - and if you are bringing your own gun, some sort of traditional sling that can be put into a loop sling configuration (e.g. GI web sling)

3) 500 rounds of ammo for the weekend, minimum. Bring 1k so you aren't nervous about running out.

4) Don't make any evening plans the day of the first shoot. You will want to sleep!

5) I shot irons because it seemed like the right thing to try to master first, but I am questioning that approach (and not just because I failed to shoot expert!) - next time I'm throwing myself on the mercy of magnification first and seeing if that helps (and if not, well, at least I know that seeing better was never my problem!)

6) If you know something about proper cheekweld and you are bringing a rifle, make sure you have it working for you before showing up (this will save time and frustration). If you don't know anything about it, do anything you can to learn about it about improving the situation on your stock ahead of time. This could be said about a lot of the success factors and techniques you will learn once you show up, but I think it's one of the only things (besides bringing a sling) for which your equipment will need fixing rather than just learning how to arrange your body.

1kiloGarand
04-18-2011, 1:03 AM
I was wishing I had a scope the whole time. The 400yd targets are basically tiny specs sitting on top of my front sight, and when my eyes are focused there, targets are just a blur behind it.

Pete the instructor said something like "don't fuss it, trust the NPOA", and that really clicked for me. If I was relaxed in my NPOA, and wasn't dragging wood, I would return to the same point of impact after each shot. So instead of fussing it, I sight once, and just kept focusing on the front sight and trusting that I was on target, and kept squeezing the trigger. It almost felt like I was shooting blind.

The smallest group I shot this way was 3 rounds into the 400yd red coat at the end of the 2nd day. The group fit in the space of my little finger nail. I amazed myself, was convinced then that the techniques Appleseed teach really work. Now I wonder how much further out (smaller) I can shoot with a 4x scope.


5) I shot irons because it seemed like the right thing to try to master first, but I am questioning that approach (and not just because I failed to shoot expert!) - next time I'm throwing myself on the mercy of magnification first and seeing if that helps (and if not, well, at least I know that seeing better was never my problem!)

Eljay
04-18-2011, 7:15 AM
My eyesight's somewhat marginal for the 400 with irons. So what I find is that if I trust my NPOA I get a little group which may or may not be quite in the right place. I had a 228, 220, and one or two more in the "teens" (213-219). But I also had at least one that was around 170 where I had cute little groups just above the slow fire targets - I shifted horizontally perfectly but I was a bit high the whole time. And then at some point I switched to the AR which I don't shoot as well (190s, and I was adjusting basic stuff that I would have worked out before if I was actually planning on shooting it).

Anyway, point being that with the irons depending on your eyesight you'll probably drop some consistency on the slow fire stage. But it really doesn't matter on the other three stages, and if anything irons are faster (since you're just ripping off shots each breath). So on any given AQT you'll either do great or terrible, but over the course of the day it's not going to affect if you get the patch or not if your fundamentals are at a decent level and you're trusting NPOA. That was my experience anyway.

docsmileyface
04-18-2011, 7:40 AM
I got a 213 then the rest of the time I got a bunch of 207s, 208s, 209s and finally a 210 (thought it was much higher than realized you only shoot the last 400 meter 3 times - one of my shots keyholed and I added up four hits for the score!). A lot of my problem was I'd do great in a particular stage then screw up the next or last. On one of the 100m standings I had 9 hits in the 5 ring and 1 in the 4, then I missed 3 shots sitting :P

afrancke
04-18-2011, 8:43 AM
Anyway, point being that with the irons depending on your eyesight you'll probably drop some consistency on the slow fire stage. But it really doesn't matter on the other three stages, and if anything irons are faster (since you're just ripping off shots each breath). So on any given AQT you'll either do great or terrible, but over the course of the day it's not going to affect if you get the patch or not if your fundamentals are at a decent level and you're trusting NPOA. That was my experience anyway.

I agree with this generally; I was usually very pleased with my groups when trusting NPOA, and invariably disappointed when I didn't.

My biggest problem of the weekend was that I was never able to get a tight group during slowfire that I could use to adjust my sights, and consequently I was not entirely confident in my sight picture to put my (improving, but still not great) groups on target for the 300 and 400 meter targets. For sure until the groups get good without the clock on your back, and until you can quickly get your NPOA set up and are good at adjusting it to point on target with the clock running, then everything else has a much smaller impact on results.

I probably - no definitely ;) - should have just kept shooting for groups until things improved, but then I would have missed all the other stuff and I'm glad I didn't. Now I can spend some quality time at the range on groups the proper way.

Eljay
04-18-2011, 8:58 AM
Oh, yes - so with the zero, that can be a problem. The temptation is to say, oh, here's a really good group an inch up so that must be real. But if you shoot again without changes maybe it'll be right on. That's a vision problem or failure to double check the NPOA, not a zero problem. But if you're always getting it off the same way, OK, that's real.

I actually think it's easier to zero shooting against a larger target that you can actually see, and also using that for verification. So if you're hitting the center of the larger targets you're probably good. And then once you think it's pretty good don't mess with it. I actually have a little line painted on my front TechSight for Appleseed distance and the ammo I'm using.

I should probably also note that I'm using point of aim = point of impact. My vision isn't good enough to even consider a 6 o'clock hold (it's just a fuzzy blob, better to center it than to get fancy) and I think it's easier to keep a front sight focus that way.

PS For anybody reading this for a future Appleseed - don't switch ammo during an Appleseed. With different .22 ammo I've found the zero's 12-16 clicks up which is a good inch different on target.

1kiloGarand
04-18-2011, 10:27 AM
What Appleseed can do for you:
I'm a brand new shooter. Even before ever going to a range, I practiced my positions at home with a sling, trying to hold a steady sight picture. I spent about 6 hours at the range two weeks before Appleseed, zeroing my sights @ 20 yards (using a block rest), and trying out different ammo, and shooting different positions. That was the extent of my shooting experience. Here is the start and end of my two days. Thanks Appleseed!

afrancke
04-18-2011, 10:34 AM
What Appleseed can do for you:
Here is the start and end of my two days.

That first target is impressive for a new shooter, and the final target is one to be envious of, period! I'll be back later with one of my own after the next shoot!

Eljay
04-18-2011, 10:42 AM
And the cool thing is you now have these fundamentals to build on, with no bad habits, and a clear notion of some good drills and such to work on. And you can decide if you want to move out to longer distances and see how that's different, or you can move up to something with real recoil, or anything you want, really.

I'd love to see you posting later this year that you made Rifleman again with your M1 Garand!

Eljay
04-18-2011, 12:26 PM
Phil has the official After Action Report over on the Appleseed forum for those who would like to put in their two cents over there. I'll see about linking my two sad pictures over when the baby takes a nap (fingers crossed).

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=22171.0

Steyrlp10
04-18-2011, 12:29 PM
I was shooting two Bullseye matches on Range 5 and didn't have a chance to say "howdy" to the other Calgunners at Chabot. Hope all of you had fun :)

V
04-19-2011, 9:18 PM
Hi Folks,

this is Phil, "V" on the Appleseed forum. Reading through the above it sounds like you folks have picked up everything pretty well, especially the NPOA concept, and understand that the Appleseed weekend is truly a drinking from the firehose/total immersion which sets you up for private study at your own pace using the handouts, etc.

It was a great weekend, we were the biggest turnout in California and one of the larger events in the country so excellent job on getting the word out and selling out the shoot.

Thanks again to all the instructors, Mr Pete, RyanTSG, Nero and Pat.

Thanks to Rocket man for answering everyone's questions leading up to the event. Hope to see many of you again in the future on the "Appleseed Trail." And all you Riflemen, think about becoming an Instructor

"I believe most men have more courage than they know of, and that a little at first is enough to begin with. I knew the time when I thought that the whistling of a cannon ball would have frightened me almost to death; but I have since tried it, and find that I can stand it" Thomas Paine "The Crisis"

I did a posting (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=22274.0) on the Appleseed forum to collect all the after action reports on all the California shoots this weekend for your enjoyment.

Cheers
Phil "V" aka crkba

1kiloGarand
04-19-2011, 10:04 PM
Looks like Chabot had the best turn out and the most number of Riflemen! Good work everyone!

Hi Folks,

I did a posting (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=22274.0) on the Appleseed forum to collect all the after action reports on all the California shoots this weekend for your enjoyment.

Cheers
Phil "V" aka crkba

docsmileyface
04-20-2011, 7:14 AM
Biggest all around turnout, too. I think its probably because it was the only one close to the Bay Area. We need to get Metcalf to let us use the the range where the Magpul guys do their classes and get a San Jose Appleseed going for us South Bay guys.

afrancke
04-21-2011, 8:48 AM
We need to get Metcalf to let us use the the range where the Magpul guys do their classes and get a San Jose Appleseed going for us South Bay guys.

Totally agreed! Has anybody broached the topic with Metcalf previously?

badduggy
04-21-2011, 3:22 PM
that would be great central location.

docsmileyface
04-21-2011, 8:41 PM
Anyone got a point of contact for Metcalf? Like, who would someone ask if its OK to hold an Appleseed there?

RyanTSG
04-22-2011, 6:52 AM
Mtcalf has an odd organization since it is a county owned range.

Ask someone at the front desk and work your way up from there.

Good Luck,

Ryan

son_of_a_gunny
04-24-2011, 5:10 PM
Anyone got a point of contact for Metcalf? Like, who would someone ask if its OK to hold an Appleseed there?

I got this from their web site (http://www.sccgov.org/portal/site/parks/parksarticle?path=%252Fv7%252FParks%2520and%2520Re creation%252C%2520Department%2520of%2520%2528DEP%2 529&contentId=27e598ba77784010VgnVCM10000048dc4a92____ ):

For More Information Please Contact:

The Field Sports County Park
9580 Malech Rd.
San Jose, CA 95013
Phone: 463-0769 (Trap and Skeet Range Office)
Phone: 463-0652 (Rifle and Pistol Range Office)

son_of_a_gunny
04-24-2011, 5:23 PM
It looks like the san jose zouaves (http://www.zouaves.org/home)use the 200 yard range the first 3 weekends every month. Maybe the 4th weekend would be open for Appleseed?

docsmileyface
04-24-2011, 6:59 PM
has anybody contacted them yet?

docsmileyface
04-26-2011, 9:11 AM
Hmm - called up but they were closed for winter hours today

V
05-27-2011, 3:25 PM
Coming up fast, find more information and register here (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/search-states.php?filter=CA&statename=California) (Appleseed calls it Castro Valley) and don't forget you can use that $10 of discount code, NWC201010, as described here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=433953)

Cheers
V