OLL siezures by DOJ !

[BLFD1]

Ok, here's the story as I got it two days ago. Stick with me as it's second hand.

A friend of mine who frequents a Merced area gun shop told me that two OLL rifles were seized from that shop.

Apparently a guy(s) came in with a OLL rifle(s) (fixed mag config.) one with the mag fixed with a popular fixed mag kit, and the other had the mag fixed with a cap nut on the mag release.

He said that a DOJ agent (that was milling around) noticed the rifles and looked at it/ them and said they were illegal due to the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" yada, yada, yada.

The Agent seized the rifle(s) and basically told the owner that they would investigate and if the rifles were found to be of legal configuration that they would be returned. (YEA RIGHT!) if not B O O M ! FELONY!!! :eek:

I know this is somewhat hearsay, but I wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had any other info. If this is the type of think the DOJ is up to I thought it was a good idea to let people know.

Also, he told me that the gun shop owner also told him of a San Jose shop that had a OLL (fixed mag also) confiscated by the local P.D. but supposedly when the evidence photos were shown the mag was removed and the mag well was open...sneaky

Again, don't kill the messenger, just passing on info.

[m1aowner]

Why would you need to bring your completed OLL rifle to any shop?

I'm guessing the story teller was referring to the Gun Exchange in San Jose. To my knowledge there still dealing in OLLs. I called them today inquiring about buying a completed OLL rifle. I'm sure they'll be more information to follow.

Ok, here's the story as I got it two days ago. Stick with me as it's second hand.

A friend of mine who frequents a Merced area gun shop told me that two OLL rifles were siezed from that shop.

Apparently a guy(s) came in with a OLL rifle(s) (fixed mag config.) one with the mag fixed with a popular fixed mag kit, and the other had the mag fixed with a cap nut on the mag release.

He said that a DOJ agent (that was milling around) noticed the rifles and looked at it/ them and said they were illegal due to the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" yada, yada, yada.

The Agent siezed the rifle(s) and basically told the owner that they would investigate and if the rifles were found to be of legal configuration that they would be returned. (YEA RIGHT!) if not B O O M ! FELONY!!! :eek:

I know this is somewhat hearsay, but I wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had any other info. If this is the type of think the DOJ is up to I thought it was a good idea to let people know.

Also, he told me that the gun shop owner also told him of a San Jose shop that had a OLL (fixed mag also) confiscated by the local P.D. but supposedly when the evidence photos were shown the mag was removed and the mag well was open...sneaky

Again, don't kill the messenger, just passing on info.

[xenophobe]

The shop that had the rifles confiscated were apparently told by the DOJ that they'll be confiscated and that they were going to wait to see if they were illegal or not.

There was a customer who had an off-list rifle modified by the arresting officers to accept an open mag well. A detective came in to photograph an identical complete lower, and I showed him the mag lock kit, which he took pictures of, and explained the complexities of the AW laws to him while he listened intently. There were no rifles confiscated from SJGE.

As for the person who had his off-list rifle confiscated, there were no other charges filed other than the "illegal possession of an AW". So, everyone has been wanting a test case on the Prince50 mag lock? This may prove to be it.

[mblat]

The shop that had the rifles confiscated were apparently told by the DOJ that they'll be confiscated and that they were going to wait to see if they were illegal or not.

There was a customer who had an off-list rifle modified by the arresting officers to accept an open mag well. A detective came in to photograph an identical complete lower, and I showed him the mag lock kit, which he took pictures of, and explained the complexities of the AW laws to him while he listened intently. There were no rifles confiscated from SJGE.

As for the person who had his off-list rifle confiscated, there were no other charges filed other than the "illegal possession of an AW". So, everyone has been wanting a test case on the Prince50 mag lock? This may prove to be it.

So, if I understand it correctly such an event did indeed take place? It is no longer the rumor?
You witnessed it or know somebody reliable who did?
If this is so it is time for 2 things:
1. Contact NRA
2. Create defense fund – I am willing to give some money to prove once and for all that Prince locks are legal.


I certainly wan’t hoping that somebody would get busted – I hope it will end up ok for that person… :mad:

[Richie Rich]

The shop that had the rifles confiscated were apparently told by the DOJ that they'll be confiscated and that they were going to wait to see if they were illegal or not.

There was a customer who had an off-list rifle modified by the arresting officers to accept an open mag well. A detective came in to photograph an identical complete lower, and I showed him the mag lock kit, which he took pictures of, and explained the complexities of the AW laws to him while he listened intently. There were no rifles confiscated from SJGE.

As for the person who had his off-list rifle confiscated, there were no other charges filed other than the "illegal possession of an AW". So, everyone has been wanting a test case on the Prince50 mag lock? This may prove to be it.

WOAH!!!!

Not only did they confiscate a legal firearm, they then tampered with it to make the firearm non compliant!!
And then they sent a detective back to collect more evidence and he admitted to the tampering...

I hope that whoever the detective admitted that to is willing to testify in this case.

This is going to be the test case, if the person deprived of his property has the will to fight it and does not accept a plea....

Hello, NRA..... Warm up your lawyers, here we go.....

Let me know where to donate $$ for defense..

***if this is can all be substantiated***

[WokMaster1]

Xeno, who were those arresting officers? DOJ, SJPD or SC Sheriff's Office? Am I correcting in understanding that the arresting officers actually broke the law?:mad:

[markymark]

Or did the customer have an off-list rifle that had an open mag well, and the arresting officer modified the rifle by adding the mag lock kit? That would be even more fascinating.
That would be funny :)

[blkA4alb]

All of you are getting too excited about what is now just hear-say.

[BLFD1]

The shop that had the rifles confiscated were apparently told by the DOJ that they'll be confiscated and that they were going to wait to see if they were illegal or not.

There was a customer who had an off-list rifle modified by the arresting officers to accept an open mag well. A detective came in to photograph an identical complete lower, and I showed him the mag lock kit, which he took pictures of, and explained the complexities of the AW laws to him while he listened intently. There were no rifles confiscated from SJGE.

As for the person who had his off-list rifle confiscated, there were no other charges filed other than the "illegal possession of an AW". So, everyone has been wanting a test case on the Prince50 mag lock? This may prove to be it.


Well, that would be enough of a charge for me to crap myself...I'll post more info if I get it, but Xeno seems to have more info than me. :rolleyes:

[James R.]

That would be funny :)

I wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure the evidence lock up has rules about firearms and their needing to be unloaded, magazines removed or whatever for safety reasons.

I can just picture some cop or evidence guy backing the screw out to get the magazine out and then failing to note the disposition of the rifle prior to such action. Obviously much to the dismay of the person accused of having an illegal assault weapon.

Regards,

James R.

[azn_wrx]

If an officer was taking a rifle of mine with a mag-lock kit I would want him to

1. Give me a reciept
2. Indicate on the reciept in writing some where that there is a mag-lock kit and it was closed all the way (3 turns) or whatever and the magazine could not be removed without a tool with his signature and badge # written on there as proof.

This kinda sounds screwy, I would like to hear more details.

[PIRATE14]

The shop that had the rifles confiscated were apparently told by the DOJ that they'll be confiscated and that they were going to wait to see if they were illegal or not.

There was a customer who had an off-list rifle modified by the arresting officers to accept an open mag well. A detective came in to photograph an identical complete lower, and I showed him the mag lock kit, which he took pictures of, and explained the complexities of the AW laws to him while he listened intently. There were no rifles confiscated from SJGE.

As for the person who had his off-list rifle confiscated, there were no other charges filed other than the "illegal possession of an AW". So, everyone has been wanting a test case on the Prince50 mag lock? This may prove to be it.

Wait and see if they're illegal???

SO we take rifles and than go and see if they are illegal or wait for a new reg change to make them illegal???

IF these guys are the experts, shouldn't they already know??

Well we'll all stby ready to gear up........

If we could get some clarity to the story......what LE agency took what rifle in what configuration, who, what, when, where, why....

[Jicko]

Ok, here's the story as I got it two days ago. Stick with me as it's second hand.

A friend of mine who frequents a Merced area gun shop told me that two OLL rifles were siezed from that shop.

Second hand!? Or third hand!? Or 4th hand!?

blfd1, by all means, I am not saying that I don't trust you..... this is pretty much "just a story"..... and we don't even know "who" is telling it, in the first place.... the gun shop owner? or an employee? was that person "at scene" when all these took place?

and.... which "shop" is this?



Apparently a guy(s) came in with a OLL rifle(s) (fixed mag config.) one with the mag fixed with a popular fixed mag kit, and the other had the mag fixed with a cap nut on the mag release.

He said that a DOJ agent (that was milling around) noticed the rifles and looked at it/ them and said they were illegal due to the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" yada, yada, yada.

The Agent siezed the rifle(s) and basically told the owner that they would investigate and if the rifles were found to be of legal configuration that they would be returned. (YEA RIGHT!) if not B O O M ! FELONY!!! :eek:

Who is this agent? Did the rifle owner take some pictures of his rifles? At the time when they were taken? (I urge everyone to buy a disposable camera and put it in your range bag)

And why did this guy/guys need to bring 2 OLL rifles into the store like that!?
Do anyone of you frequently bring your guns into a store and show them around!?



I know this is somewhat hearsay, but I wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had any other info. If this is the type of think the DOJ is up to I thought it was a good idea to let people know.

Also, he told me that the gun shop owner also told him of a San Jose shop that had a OLL (fixed mag also) confiscated by the local P.D. but supposedly when the evidence photos were shown the mag was removed and the mag well was open...sneaky

Again, don't kill the messenger, just passing on info.

A lot of the above are not "validated" info.....

Please can someone come out with some "real" info!!??

*puzzled*


If we could get some clarity to the story......what LE agency took what rifle in what configuration, who, what, when, where, why....

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 ......

[xenophobe]

Whoah people! Calm down for a second... let me clarify...

The off-list rifle had a mag lock installed. Apparently one of the SJPD officers removed the mag-lock, most likely because procedure would be to clear the weapon and remove the magazine before siezing it as evidence. As to when the mag was removed, at the person's home, or at the station is unclear. The individual was arrested and released on bail.

All I can say for certain is, the fully built califiornia complaint off-list rifle left our store with a fixed magazine.

The above has been gathered from my contact with the customer and the detective involved in the case directly.

-----
As for contacting the NRA about the 'store', the information was already fowarded to them several days ago. The confiscation of these fully built rifles has not been confirmed by anyone here first hand, so as far as I know, it's still rumor.

I heard about the OLL confiscation through a customer, who was basically hearing the information from a third party, so until there is some verification on this, I would mainly consider this unsubstantiated rumor, so I haven't put much merit into it yet, and hence, the reason I did not post about it on Tuesday, when I heard about it.

[BLFD1]

Removed at original posters request


Ok, now I'm completely confused.....:confused:

[Joe]

Ok, now I'm completely confused.....:confused:

it sounds like swimmingpoolguy might be the guy who had his rifle taken.

is this correct swimmingpoolguy?

[bwiese]

As I predicted in my AR/AK Memo, fixed mags may illegally be removed by cops.

If I see a cop remove a fixed mag from a rifle I'd be tempted to place him under citizen's arrest for a 12280(a) violation and call the local PD's Mgmt Control dept and the CHP (who investigates local malfeasance).

The NRA & attorneys do know about these very recent situations, as well as one other.

Isn't it funny how the Merced shop gets popped (rumor, but believable, esp with the actions that appear to be taken) but SJ Gun Exchange doesn't?

Must be that it's only 2 mi from Don Kilmer's office, and that Jess Guy (exATF) and Ed Peterson (exATF, now crime lab firearms expert) are both familiar to the shop's owner & staff.

Looks like the DOJ wanted "easy pickin's" and went out to the sticks.

[PIRATE14]

Removed at original posters request
Well don't say too much on the internet.........

3 days:( ....dude take our number down...will send someone to bail u out sooner.

[WokMaster1]

Removed at original posters request


Are you the guy who got arrested?

OLL is Off List Lower for an AR-15 rifle.

Never mind. Things moved too fast here.

[PIRATE14]

As I predicted in my AR/AK Memo, fixed mags may illegally be removed by cops.

If I see a cop remove a fixed mag from a rifle it'd be nice to place him under citizen's arrest for a 12280(a) violation and call the CHP.

couldn't get to my cell phone....damn hand cuffs........

What good is that camera phone....

What are the odds those dorks already lost that little allen screw........

[BLFD1]

IF YOU MUST, RE-READ MY ORIGINAL POST !

Ok, here's the story as I got it two days ago. Stick with me as it's second hand.
A friend of mine who frequents a Merced area gun shop told me that two OLL rifles were seized from that shop.

Apparently a guy(s) came in with a OLL rifle(s) (fixed mag config.) one with the mag fixed with a popular fixed mag kit, and the other had the mag fixed with a cap nut on the mag release.

He said that a DOJ agent (that was milling around) noticed the rifles and looked at it/ them and said they were illegal due to the "capacity to accept a detachable magazine" yada, yada, yada.

The Agent seized the rifle(s) and basically told the owner that they would investigate and if the rifles were found to be of legal configuration that they would be returned. (YEA RIGHT!) if not B O O M ! FELONY!!!

I know this is somewhat hearsay, but I wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had any other info. If this is the type of thing the DOJ is up to I thought it was a good idea to let people know.

Also, he told me that the gun shop owner also told him of a San Jose shop that had a OLL (fixed mag also) confiscated by the local P.D. but supposedly when the evidence photos were shown the mag was removed and the mag well was open...sneaky

Again, don't kill the messenger, just passing on info.

As I said this is ALL the info I have now...for all I knew it was bull********....well, it looks as if a couple people have actually heard about the incidents.

So as I said, I just wanted to get this out to you guys as a FYI. And no, I wont post the name of the shop, that would be stupid. Do you think that this guy wants his shop name out there with "DOJ MILLS AROUND MY SHOP" attached to it?? (I didn't think so either) I was trying to be a little discreet. That's why I didn't name the shops.

I'll give more info as I get it.

[xenophobe]

Removed at original posters request

Hey... sorry that happened to you, but we're fighting for you at the shop. I spent 20 minutes explaining in detail how your rifle, and others we have on display are legal, the CCR definition of detachable magazine, and then explained the SB-23 12276.1 statute. He did seem genuinely interested and he was paying close attention.

And I tried to keep as much of your personal stuff out of it as I could. Feel free to explain whatever you wish after you talk to your lawyer. Best of luck to you.

Removed at original posters request

It stands for Off List Lower (Receiver). Which means, that it is not a named assault weapon on the Roberti-Roos ban list, or the Kasler Add-On list.

[PIRATE14]

YES...talk to your lawyer if you don't have one, get one, fast.

This could turn into something interesting or fizzle out quickly.

[WokMaster1]

Removed at original posters request

Now was that really neccesary to do that? I just want to know was it SJPD officers or DOJ agent that arrested you?

[ketec_owner]

I thought the "capacity to accept" was still a proposed regulation? It's still listed as a proposed regulation on the DOJ website. As far as I can see - if it was a fixed mag kit - then there is no grounds this could be confiscated on.

[BLFD1]

I HAVE A FEELING THIS COULD GET INTERESTING.......:cool: Poolguy, sorry to hear of your situation.

[Mudvayne540ld]

what agencey arrested you?
and did the question you at all?

[ketec_owner]

If I were you - friend. Don't say any more on this very public website which could be used an evidence by the prosecutor. I'd go back and edit your posts to remove everything you said. Most attorney's will advise you of the same. And since Arnold signed that new law last month - you can push the DA to drop the charges and seize the weapon a pay a penalty of $500 or so. Which is interesting - since most laywers will charge a retainer of $750 and the fine for one AW is $500. Which do you think most people would take? Exactly.

[Kestryll]

There is a certain validity to the warnings you are receiving about choosing your words carefully.
While we all want to know what has happened, what can be done and how help can be rendered you need to be careful of what you say.
It is known that the CA Department of Justice and other law enforcement agencies monitor this site in particular.

We want to know and you are welcome to share but your priority needs to be what is best for your defense right now.

[WokMaster1]

Got a lawyer yet? PM Xeno, BWeise & MikeHaas. They'll point you in the right direction. Need help $$ post here. Good luck!

[69Mach1]

Damn that f****** sucks! My support and wallet are with you , if this is legit.
By the way, was it a DOJ agent? What was he doing there?

[Mudvayne540ld]

My support and wallet are with you , if this is legit.

I think it should be the same for all of us CA law abiding gun owners! We all need to support and contribute to help a "friendly" out :)

[blacklisted]

You forgot to remove the quoted posts (or haven't done so yet).

[Uberdummy]

Seeing his posts before he removed them.. if what he said is accurate, I am willing to put full support into getting this somewhere.

[swimmingpoolguy]

Yes Sjpd...... I am such a mellow type guy, that sometimes I do need advise as far as not talking....Just have never been in this situation.....And thanks for pointing that out....I guess I still the view the world as fair....And I hope i am right

[Mnort10x]

TO AN ATTORNEY! I'm guessing your in your twenties, am I right? Take some advice, Don Kilmer.

[ketec_owner]

I hope your right too. But I can tell you from experience - it's not. Lawyer up and ask that DA to drop his charges. I have a feeling they are looking for bigger fish than you.

[swimmingpoolguy]

I am 38.....feel 20ish though

[hoffmang]

The one thing you should feel safe saying is who your attorney is. If it isn't someone who is a firearms expert, please get them in touch with either Chuck Michel or Donald Kilmer (or one of the other guys mentioned earlier in this thread.)

-Gene

[Kestryll]

Hopefully the warnings and your deletion of your posts is only a case of over-caution but at this level there is no reason not to be careful. This is serious stuff, as if you weren't aware of that already.

If you'd like I can go back and remove the quoted portions of your other posts.
Just let me know.

[thmpr]

Defense fund? Please provide the info if required..

[m1aowner]

How did SJPD come to arrest him at his home?

[ketec_owner]

A very interesting question. But I don't think he should answer it publically.

[WokMaster1]

How did SJPD come to arrest him at his home?

Company cars.

[kilword]

unless you take it to court i dont think youd get ur rifle back. leos taking stuff is like throwing it in a black hole of never get anything back.

[Mnort10x]

I am 38.....feel 20ish though

OK, I'm wrong. But then here is another guess, your not to sure what just happened to you, right? Start reading all the great information on this site, educate yourself. Your going to need all the help you can get and there are many here who have that knowledge. Just don't talk to anyone much about this and get to the lawyer ASAP.

[Joe]

How did SJPD come to arrest him at his home?

thats what im wondering

[ketec_owner]

Company cars.


Too Funny!

Seriously - license plates. It's the only explanation. Which is kinda scary if you think about it. It means that someone was watching intently - memorizing plates or took a picture of the plates.

[m1aowner]

Ok, I think I get it now.

All I can say for certain is, the fully built califiornia complaint off-list rifle left our store with a fixed magazine.

[swimmingpoolguy]

Yes I have the don k number , but I will say this...I believe that you must do something wrong to get in trouble. I am so normal as far as a person....And i believe that "fighting for what is right " is just a piece of me. There are bad people out there, I am not one of them. The last altercation I was in, was second grade over marbles. I have worked my butt off for the little I have, enjoy life, and just want to shoot my rifle legally at a range, or hunt with it legally. I do not want too incite a DA or police to come after me, but I surely will not accept a penalty for myself or for that matter anyone , who has done nothing. I will not push things to a point where I can get in trouble, But I surely can not give up on what I know is the truth.

My grandfather always said" stop at the red light and go on green and you will be ok" And i believe that

[swimmingpoolguy]

Yes, please remove the quotes I do not know how....

[Mute]

Please, please, please, for your sake don't write any more information regarding this matter and contact a lawyer immediately. This could be the type of case we need to wipe out this whole OLL mess and maybe get a foot in the door towards killing SB23.

[Kestryll]

Yes, please remove the quotes I do not know how....

It's done. There really is no way for you to edit or delete quotes, only the person who quoted you or a staff member can.

[kilword]

id ask the officer what about all the nice CA compliant rifles at the SJGE
not to get them in a bind but what could they say really.

[ketec_owner]

Seems to me that this would be more of the heart of the matter. Given the circumstances.

[WokMaster1]

Yes I have the don k number , but I will say this...I believe that you must do something wrong to get in trouble. I am so normal as far as a person....And i believe that "fighting for what is right " is just a piece of me. There are bad people out there, I am not one of them. The last altercation I was in, was second grade over marbles. I have worked my butt off for the little I have, enjoy life, and just want to shoot my rifle legally at a range, or hunt with it legally. I do not want too incite a DA or police to come after me, but I surely will not accept a penalty for myself or for that matter anyone , who has done nothing. I will not push things to a point where I can get in trouble, But I surely can not give up on what I know is the truth.

My grandfather always said" stop at the red light and go on green and you will be ok" And i believe that


I hear you but in a perfect world, that would sound reasonable & sane but in reality, In God we trust, others pay cash & cash only, no credit cards, debit cards or checks.

I bet it was a junior gung ho LEO who jumped the gun (no pun intended) & cried wolf & got SJPD all hot & bothered. They called up SWAT & did a felony takedown on you. I bet when they found out the truth, they were just as frustrated & angry as you are. They busted on a perfectly LEGAL rifle. I can see our boy in SAC going, Oh Sh#t, not now!

[swimmingpoolguy]

Ok gonna just read for now, and DON Is on vacation and will try the other named mentioned as a lawyer....I do appreciate suggestions for lawyers.

[oaklander]

SPG - get some rest. Certain people at the DOJ read this board. Call the lawyers that have been suggested to you ASAP Saturday AM. Don't say anything to anyone until you talk to a lawyer first.

I have the contact info for one of the firms, if you need it - send me an IM.

k

[leverage]

I hear you but in a perfect world, that would sound reasonable & sane but in reality, In God we trust, others pay cash & cash only, no credit cards, debit cards or checks.

It is not an imperfect world because of poolguy. In fact, I think it is as good as it is (or not as bad as it could be) because of people like him. I admire his willingness to say something, and the conviction to do what is right. I realize it may be in his best interest not to say anything at all but I do appreciate him letting me know I could be in his shoes at any time.

[Addax]

Geez Louise!

Count me in when a defense fund is set up.

Law Enforcement being enforced by people who do not know or understand the law, that is an oximoron..

[Joe]

Geez Louise!

Count me in when a defense fund is set up.

Law Enforcement being enforced by people who do not know or understand the law, that is an oximoron..

its oxymoron

i would be in for the defense fund also

[WokMaster1]

It is not an imperfect world because of poolguy. In fact, I think it is as good as it is (or not as bad as it could be) because of people like him. I admire his willingness to say something, and the conviction to do what is right. I realize it may be in his best interest not to say anything at all but I do appreciate him letting me know I could be in his shoes at any time.

Never said it was his fault. Forgive me if I came across as that. I understand where he's coming from but I just wanted to remind him that the world is not all pop tarts & cheerios. His "being nice" could & would be used against him in the court of law. Sure it's good information to chew on but certain LE groups do hang out here & let's just quote an old saying that "loose lips sink ships". If it were to happen to me, as much as I would love to share amongst friends, I would only be talking to my attorneys. It's late & I'm starting to rant. Good nite to all. Catch up tomorrow.:)

[Addax]

[QUOTE=Joe]its oxymoron

My Bad, my brain was off line...

I really hope this situation works out for the best for SPG.

[jdberger]

Definitely an interesting turn of events.

[Blackwater OPS]

Count me in for the defense fund once the facts, or at least both sides version of the facts, become clear. Everyone ought to be in for it, this could have happened to any of us.

BTW, I'd be shouting from the rooftops if this happened to me. That is, right after I had a long talk with my lawyer. They can only get away with bullcrap like this if no one stands up to them. That means ALL OF US.

[Whitesmoke]

I'm down for the Defense fund....

[Paul1960]

Bruce Colodny
"Firearms Lawyer"

Always advertizes in the CRPA newsletter

"serving gun owners, dealers, and manufactures since 1982. All California and federal courts. .... "

290 North D Street Suite 705
San Bernardino
(909) 862-3113


503 S Glassell Street
Orange
(714) 639-6767

[69Mach1]

When the case is dismissed or he is acquitted, there needs to be a lawsuit filed for false arrest and imprisonment. :mad: If DOJ thinks it's only one man they are going after, they have another thing coming.

[383green]

When the case is dismissed or he is acquitted, there needs to be a lawsuit filed for false arrest and imprisonment. :mad: If DOJ thinks it's only one man they are going after, they have another thing coming.
I'm in for the defense fund... and the offense fund. ;)

[Mr331]

but I will say this...I believe that you must do something wrong to get in trouble.

You have done nothing wrong. They were on a fishing expedition. Get a PayPal account so we can forward you some cash. While I know this will not be an easy ride for you, I feel it will go a long way to show the DOJ they can't go playing around with pretend laws. The only laws that matter are the ones on the books, the same ones on your side in this matter.

We have Kassler, Harrott and soon we will have "swimmingpoolguy"

[Chaingun]

I can't see them returning the rifles until the results from the last meeting regarding the 6th phrase is resolved.

Interesting

[colossians323]

One question.

Do we know for certain who removed the mag lock, the owner or the LEO?
If the owner removed it, this is obviously not a good test case.
However, if the LEO removed it, and he simply got arrested because they don't know the complicated gun laws, this surely is the case that I think everone here is wanting.
If we know for certain that it was the leo, is there anyone here that can help get the ball rolling for the defense fund?
The faster the warchest is filled, the better chance he will have.
Also, what about the NRA, if it was truly the LEO that is wrong.
I am a lifelong member, and definitely would think that this would be the exact case that they would want, to take a look at the complicated matrix of gun laws that we have here.
I belive that the NRA would be doing his through donations right?
Mike Haas, as a liason, is there any way you can get the NRA involved providing that it was the LEO's error?
I think that there are plenty of NRA members, and non member that are ready to pony up some $ right now.
I came in late to this post, but I truly hope that it is the fault of the LEO's ignorance of the laws.
I also am ready to donate if the facts are as perceived.

[luvtolean]

Just...wow.

If this does turn in to a "pure" mag was locked scenario, I'd be very happy to contribute to the legal fund.

None of us wants to be a test case, but if it went down as it reads, all of us OLL'ers were arrested last week.

[DJMAN]

Paypal please. I have some funds to give. (Im also a pool guy) IPSSA.:)

[MrLogan]

What an unfortunate turn of events. It could have been any one of us. :mad: Time to band together; I'm willing to contribute to a defense fund.

[m1aowner]

To all,

We still don't know what really happened.

[mikehaas]

Too Funny!

Seriously - license plates. It's the only explanation. Which is kinda scary if you think about it. It means that someone was watching intently - memorizing plates or took a picture of the plates.
Here's one for 'em...
http://calnra.com/gfx/caplate80h.gif

As bweise said earlier, before it went public here, NRA was already knowledgable of the situation. I suggest we ask for and expect few details. And if you learn of any details, please do NOT rush out to the local public forum. If NRA says there's someway to help, we can all do it together. But until then, let's enjoy the show. (To the person whose guns were confiscated, hang in there.)

Isn't target shooting a great sport? It kills me how football fans think THEIR sport is tough. Those coddled and protected players can slash up other players faces with their spikes - ON PURPOSE - and THEY aren't prosecuted. That's how special we are. We're so dangerous, the inanimate objects we own are enough to pop law abiding citizens with no record - we don't even have to DO anything.

Quick Quiz: DO you think this will further unify our ranks? (Select below)
[ ] YES

Mike

[jnojr]

I can't see them returning the rifles until the results from the last meeting regarding the 6th phrase is resolved.

Interesting

I can't see them ever returning the rifles, period.

They're still holding on to the lowers from artherd's group buy, aren't they? How many months ago was that?

Some of you persist in the odd belief that the laws in this state apply to our overlords despite all evidence to the contrary ;)

[jnojr]

To all,

We still don't know what really happened.

+99999999999 A lot of "someone said that someone else said that their roomates best friends brothers girlfriends cousin overheard on the bus..." and then posts that aren't posts any more.


As bweise said earlier, before it went public here, NRA was already knowledgable of the situation. I suggest we ask for and expect few details. And if you learn of any details, please do NOT rush out to the local public forum. If NRA says there's someway to help, we can all do it together. But until then, let's enjoy the show.

Amen. Count me in on a defense/offense fund, too... if my understanding of what happened based on the little tidbits left is correct, this could be a Good Thing, and I'll happily chip in to an organized defense fund. But we should not go off the handle and madly start PayPaling money around (especially seeing how anti-gun PayPal is!)

[MysteryCereal]

Count me in on the defense fun!

[BamBam-31]

SPG,

If this is what it seems, if this is the case, then we all have your back, brother. Sorry it had to happen to you--you sound like a real good guy. Hang in there, buddy.

I'm definitely down for a defense fund. Ah, the sweet irony if it were done thru Paypal....

[double_action]

I'm in for the defense/offense fund too.

[M. Sage]

We're all with you, SwimmingPoolGuy.

As above: clear any info you plan on sharing with a lawyer first. This case sounds like it's got a lot of promise.

[colossians323]

I can't see them ever returning the rifles, period.

They're still holding on to the lowers from artherd's group buy, aren't they? How many months ago was that?

Some of you persist in the odd belief that the laws in this state apply to our overlords despite all evidence to the contrary ;)

Yes,


But this appears to be different.
This time, you have multiples fighting for one, who are actually fighting for all.
The group buy guys should take note of his and all pool together, I am sure they would also find people willing to donate, if they could organize.

[Rascal]

Well, this does look like the real thing, so when the time comes I am willing to open up my pocket book. Good Luck

[swimmingpoolguy]

Hi there just a quick note......I have called Kilmer, and he is on vacation....also called T.M. law firm in LA ....left Message with them...is there any other Lawyers anyone knows of? I now have had it finally sink in and really need to talk with a Lawyer....I have to get back to work...lol, work is like my dog, always there for me...lol

But i will check this later this evening.....Thank you so much for the Suggestion of a lawyer, but also just the words of encouragement actually help. Also for the advise to shut up, I am doing so now....

[M. Sage]

You probably won't get to talk to one on a Saturday...

I'd be trying to contact the NRA in your position.

We somewhat share the same world view: don't do anything wrong, and you stay outta trouble... Too bad it doesn't always work out like that.

Good luck!

[MaxQ]

Glad that you came by Calguns, but sorry it's under these circumstances.:(

I'd try Chuck Michel. If Don Kilmer is going to return soon, he might be more convenient, as his office is closer to you. Bruce Colodny would be third.

Glad that you're heeding everyone's advice and not saying anything more publicly. Definitely search Calguns for all of the threads regarding fixed mag locks, discussions of the August DOJ meeting and "permanence," etc. Make pot of coffee, and put in as much time as you can. The more information you have at your disposal, the better off you'll be. You'll be less likely to innocently say something unfavorable, and any discussions with your attorney will be more productive.

As long as your fixed mag kits were properly installed on off-list lowers, you're in great shape. Don't forget that currently, as long as your mag can't be removed without using a tool, it's a fixed mag. We're all behind you with advice, funds, moral support... Good luck!

[Mnort10x]

Hi there just a quick note......I have called Kilmer, and he is on vacation....also called T.M. law firm in LA ....left Message with them...is there any other Lawyers anyone knows of? I now have had it finally sink in and really need to talk with a Lawyer....I have to get back to work...lol, work is like my dog, always there for me...lol

But i will check this later this evening.....Thank you so much for the Suggestion of a lawyer, but also just the words of encouragement actually help. Also for the advise to shut up, I am doing so now....



You'll have time the first of next week to follow up with the attorneys.

The ones you've called are the ones you need. They are firearms knowledgeable.

This is going to be and has been a test of your character. For now just keep looking over the laws on the AG web site, (you have gone there haven't you?) so that you are fully aware of what your position is and from what has already been discussed it appears that you are in the right.

I would suggest that you write down everything that happened and keep a time line of the events.

The laws are clear. As long as you had a OLL with a fixed mag removable only with a tool, anything the SJPD did to remove the magazine will keep you in the clear. They are in the wrong.

The collective 30,000+ owners of similar OLL are standing right behind you and everyone on calguns is there for you.

Hold your head up high. ;)

[M. Sage]

The laws are clear. As long as you had a OLL with a fixed mag removable only with a tool, anything the SJPD did to remove the magazine will keep you in the clear. They are in the wrong.

If they removed his mag lock, they are VERY in the wrong, since they're guilty of manufacturing an illegal AW! :D

[faterikcartman]

I'm truly hoping they didn't tell you to remove the mag yourself and you did.

[Richie Rich]

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice...

If I was in the situation that you are in I would under no circumstances take a plea offer... I would not settle for anything less then my property being returned, all charges dropped and a sincere apology...

They will probably tell you "if you plead to this misdemeanor and surrender your rifle we will make this all go away". Don't take it....

As an aside. If a LEO acting in a position of authority orders you to commit a crime (like unpinning a mag in their presence) can they charge you with said crime?

Nevermind, I know they can... Heard too many stories of drunk people being ordered out into public by LEOs then arrested for public intox...

Lotsa pool techs on here..... Had a route for a couple of years...

[Phantom_Piney]

You can count Phantom_Piney in for the defense fund... and the offense fund. If this is true as you have stated SPG then the fight has just begone. ;)

[jnojr]

Hi there just a quick note......I have called Kilmer, and he is on vacation....also called T.M. law firm in LA ....left Message with them...is there any other Lawyers anyone knows of?

John Machtinger, author of "How To Own A Gun In California and Stay Out Of Jail"!

http://pview.findlaw.com/view/3084507_1?noconfirm=0

Same law firm as Chuck Michel it looks like.

[Wulf]

As an aside. If a LEO acting in a position of authority orders you to commit a crime (like unpinning a mag in their presence) can they charge you with said crime?


Wouldent that be entrapment?

[Big Al Nasty]

I'm in for the defense/offense fund too.

[rorschach]

Count Rorschach's hard earned dollars in for the defense/offense.

[Charliegone]

If it comes down to it, I will gladly pitch in..and I also give them the finger.:D

[madjack956]

I would not use pay-pal... they are anti-gun..:eek: they do not deserve a nickel worth of business from any gunowner...they freeze accounts and tie up peoples funds for a long time.. do some research... I would not use pay-pal...I would not use pay-pal... I would not use pay-pal...


p.s. I not a rich man, but you can count me in for the defense fund..as long as the funds go through someone other than pay-pal.. Did I mention that I would not use pay-pal?:D

[thmpr]

500 members donating $50.00 would = to $25,000. Would this be enough for a lawyer?

:rolleyes:

[dawson8r]

+100$ because it could've been me!

[anotherone]

So let me get this straight then:

WE'RE ALL GOING TO JAIL :eek:!!!

Sorry guys just had to throw that in because nobody else did it yet :)! Seriously though I think I'll keep my Off-List goodies in my safe until this mess gets sorted out.

[Blacktail 8541]

I got a chance to read a little of this thread this morning, and just got home to read what I missed. If things are as posted I willl gladly contribute to the fund! The DOJ will be takeing on a lot more than just one person, with all gun owners haveing a lot at stake.

[Blacktail 8541]

I think I'll keep my Off-List goodies in my safe until this mess gets sorted out.[/QUOTE]

Not me, I'll continue to take them out and shoot. Knowing that I am following the law as WRITTEN.I also happen to reside in a very pro gun county with the chief of police and his LT; a long time personal friend in my corner.

[M. Sage]

I'm truly hoping they didn't tell you to remove the mag yourself and you did.

That'd work just fine... it'd be entrapment.

[Dump1567]

It's great that so many are willing to contribute as am I, but here's what I predict.

The DA won't file on this wino s***. This guy will have to get a court order to get his rifle back. Which he won't want to do because he just wants this to all go away. I don't see any great test case coming out of this.

And LEO's will continue to confiscate peoples property under questionable circumstances and force you to get a court order to get it back. You know, most LEO's are still using the outdated Nov. of 2001 AW ID Guide which shows any AR/AK type weapon as being an AW. It's unfortenate that we have to explain to LEO's what an OLL is.:rolleyes:

Just my 2 cents.

[Addax]

When the case is dismissed or he is acquitted, there needs to be a lawsuit filed for false arrest and imprisonment. :mad: If DOJ thinks it's only one man they are going after, they have another thing coming.

I agree with 69Mach1!

Maybe we can set up some sort of Western Union Account that can transfer directly to SPG?

I think there is a new payment site (supposed to be gun friendly) that acts like a paypal, but I can't remember the name.

Just let me know when and where to send the funds.

[Fjold]

Count me in for the defense/offense fund and if you need funds to get a court order to get your fixed magazine, autoloading rifle back.

I promised myself after I got my first lower from Wes that who ever wound up as the test case, I'd help.

[swimmingpoolguy]

You are wrong! I am not looking to pick a fight and never have. But when I get sucker punched, I guarantee I will not just stand there with my hands in my pockets!


Now is that a Chargers bolt?

[Mnort10x]

You know, most LEO's are still using the outdated Nov. of 2001 AW ID Guide which shows any AR/AK type weapon as being an AW. It's unfortenate that we have to explain to LEO's what an OLL is.:rolleyes:

Just my 2 cents.

Your right! The AG has not properly informed LEO's of OLL's.
OLL's are not addressed in any part of the 2001 AW ID Guide.

LEO's trained at looking over the AW guide, which is set up like the silhouettes from a WWII Aircraft Recognition Book of "enemy planes" , proceed to identify what they think is an AW.

Now armed with probable cause they search out a man that they think has an unlawful AW and proceed to arrest him.

Because the AG has let this get so screwed up, FRIENDLY FIRE!

Now arrested and incarcerated for what turns out to be legal, they
let the guy go and it becomes CYA time.

An Attorney's dream case. LEO's may want it to go away, but once Pandora's box is opened, I think not.

[69Mach1]

You are wrong! I am not looking to pick a fight and never have. But when I get sucker punched, I guarantee I will not just stand there with my hands in my pockets!


Now is that a Chargers bolt?

Good for you. Remember you're not alone on this.
Do you hear us DOJ?
For those of you who are members of other internet gunsites, spread the word, and this link.

[KimoBBZ]

If the defense fund gets organized, let me know how to contribute.

[Mnort10x]

You are wrong! I am not looking to pick a fight and never have. But when I get sucker punched, I guarantee I will not just stand there with my hands in my pockets!


Now is that a Chargers bolt?

Way to go...

I hope that you're feeling the love from everyone thats been posting in support of you.

May I ask, after looking some of this stuff over, are you feeling any better, more confident?

[uglygun]

If a case goes forward and funds are needed for the defense case.

I'll chip in 50-100 bucks easy, maybe more if not enough people step forward to help.


I believe a lot of people vested in the OLLs will step up and help out.

[TheMan]

Way to go...

I hope that you're feeling the love from everyone thats been posting in support of you.

May I ask, after looking some of this stuff over, are you feeling any better, more confident?

I dunno about love, that may be getting a little carried away.

But I will support this fight and the guys being harassed. I have spent several grand already on OLL and builds. Spending a few more grand to keep that first expenditure from becoming wasted is worth it.

[69Mach1]

If a case goes forward and funds are needed for the defense case.

I'll chip in 50-100 bucks easy, maybe more if not enough people step forward to help.


I believe a lot of people vested in the OLLs will step up and help out.

Hell, there are 1673 active Calguns members as of today. Just $50 from each of us is $83,650! That should be a nice "bury the DOJ", opps, I mean "Ban the Asault Weapons Ban" slush fund.:D

[hoffmang]

Let me make a couple of points.

1. San Jose may very well just drop this once a real lawyer gets involved.

2. If this case gets dropped, all poolguy would have to do is file the LEO gun release application and he'll likely get his gun back - http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/legr.pdf?PHPSESSID=b9e930c065c4d5fc837010fc1ff4d4c 6

3. If he doesn't, or if the Milpitas group lowers don't come back soon, then poolguy and those guys have a 1983 Federal Action based on a 5th Amendment takings case. Even the 9th circuit realizes that the 5th amendment means what it says about property not being taken without compensation.

And to echo everyone else - should this prove out to be a clean and clear case of OLL prosecution I'm in for both defense and then offense!

-Gene

[jnojr]

So let me get this straight then:

WE'RE ALL GOING TO JAIL :eek:!!!

You forgot the most important part!





...in two weeks!

:D

[Dump1567]

You are wrong! I am not looking to pick a fight and never have. But when I get sucker punched, I guarantee I will not just stand there with my hands in my pockets!


Now is that a Chargers bolt?

I'm glad. Far too many peple let there rights be trampled. The government has a way of wearing you down with unlimited tax payer funds. I'm sure some here can attest to that.

Yes, Chargers. A little superbowl loss payback tomorrow.:)

[ketec_owner]

100% agreed. I'm not a lawyer - but we don't have all the facts. Unless there is something we don't know about - the DA doesn't seem to have much evidence to support his AW case. Once a real lawyer gets involved he can review the evidence the DA has and ask for a dismissal if the case is weak. If this is a CA-legal build - there is nothing the DA would have.

If this were part of a divorce case, restraining order, or a domestic case - the DA might be looking for something or anything that might stick.

[mikehaas]

Hi there just a quick note......I have called Kilmer, and he is on vacation....also called T.M. law firm in LA ....left Message with them...is there any other Lawyers anyone knows of? I now have had it finally sink in and really need to talk with a Lawyer....I have to get back to work...lol, work is like my dog, always there for me...lol

But i will check this later this evening.....Thank you so much for the Suggestion of a lawyer, but also just the words of encouragement actually help. Also for the advise to shut up, I am doing so now....
Folks, just got off the phone with NRA Board Member Joel Friedman...
http://nrawinningteam.com/bios01/friedman.html
... who has read this thread. (I emailed him the URL earlier). He's impressed with your willingness to support a fellow shooter. But he suggests "before we go PayPal-ing a bunch of money around" to slow down, this is Saturday evening.

I suggest that 'swimmingpoolguy' make no more posts and not provide any more info publicly (like even who he has called/not called). If any of us learn details, do NOT post publicly. If things are going to get confontational, there's no reason to give DOJ any information over public forums.

Mike

[killermarmot]

+1 right there with ya man. This could be a big stop in this malicous prosecution of legal legitamte gun owners.

Like everyone's been sayin, you're in the right here and we're all behind you.

[BigMac]

WOW, see I live under a rock.

Stop posting info. Get legal advice. If you need financial help I will rob a piggy bank for you, but you "have the right to remain silent" use that right.

[artherd]

Dear DOJ, Does the name Wilson Tactical, LLC. Ring any bells?

The last time you threatened one of our RECIEVERS with prosecution, calguns.net members donates $thousands, retained the best attorneys around, and pursuaded you to reverse your illegal opinion in notime flat.
Just IMAGINE what we will do to you in a court of law if you involve one of our PEOPLE?

Unless you like $miltimillion civil liability judgements against you for malicious prosecution (amougst others) then I suggest someone get on the horn, drop all charges, and let this guy go with a HUGE appology, and pray at night that he does not persue action against you for the rights you have already violated.

Why do you not come and get me too? I have twenty OLLs, all fully compliant with all Federal, State, Local and Municipal laws, and I have a ********load of money, the best lawyers in the land, and a bad attitude.

You may consider this your only warning.

[artherd]

Hell, there are 1673 active Calguns members as of today. Just $50 from each of us is $83,650! That should be a nice "bury the DOJ", opps, I mean "Ban the Asault Weapons Ban" slush fund.:D

And if we pop a grand each in, then that's over $1.6million. How does that compare to what DOJ firearms div is prepared to spend mmm?

How about the MILLIONS of shooters who are not on calguns.net?

How about if NRA matches funds?

[M. Sage]

Yes, to Mike Haas you will listen...

Sorry, bad joke.

Anyway, let's all SLOOOW down a bit here, people. It's the weekend, "our side" is informed, now we just need to wait and see what goes on during the work week. Nothing's going to happen on this during the weekend, so we might as well sit back, take a deep breath, have a cold one or three, and see what Monday brings.

[m1aowner]

Yeah DOJ and your mother too!

Dear DOJ, Does the name Wilson Tactical, LLC. Ring any bells?

The last time you threatened one of our RECIEVERS with prosecution, calguns.net members donates $thousands, retained the best attorneys around, and pursuaded you to reverse your illegal opinion in notime flat.
Just IMAGINE what we will do to you in a court of law if you involve one of our PEOPLE?

Unless you like $miltimillion civil liability judgements against you for malicious prosecution (amougst others) then I suggest someone get on the horn, drop all charges, and let this guy go with a HUGE appology, and pray at night that he does not persue action against you for the rights you have already violated.

Why do you not come and get me too? I have twenty OLLs, all fully compliant with all Federal, State, Local and Municipal laws, and I have a ********load of money, the best lawyers in the land, and a bad attitude.

You may consider this your only warning.

[drclark]

I agree with the need to slow down. Even if this turns out to be "the case" we need to keep in mind that this issue won't likely be cleared up for a couple of years and several courtroom showdowns.

I also understand the need for the specific details of what happened to not be discussed in a public. However, the big question in everyone's mind has to be "is my mag fixing solution adequate?" or "is it still safe to take my pinned mag OLL to the range?"

It would be nice if Mr Haas or someone working with the defendant's lawyer and the specifics of the case could eventually post a very generic guideline of what we should be doing to maximize our chances of staying out of trouble. Don't know if that will be possible or not without jepordizing the case.

In any regards, if this a good case, I will lend my support when the time comes.

drc

[Kestryll]

Okay, I know everyone is amped over this and thinks this is the big break.
It may be, we'll have to see.
But in the mean time let's not get too carried away here. Let's see what the beginning of the week holds before we put on the warpaint and start calling people out.

[Whitesmoke]

I bet DOJ reads this or hears about it, calls that police dept/DA and tells them to back off (I realize they can't force them too). This is not the kind of test case the DOJ would want to see happen.....my twocents.

[Charliegone]

Okay, I know everyone is amped over this and thinks this is the big break.
It may be, we'll have to see.
But in the mean time let's not get too carried away here. Let's see what the beginning of the week holds before we put on the warpaint and start calling people out.

Man...and I was ready to go braveheart on someone's a**!

http://www.magicdragon.com/Wallace/melblue2.gif

[NSR500]

Keep your head up swimmingpoolguy!
I'll also be down to contribute what I can to your defense. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, chill out and watch some football, and I hope those lawyers get back to you ASAP.

[1911_Mitch]

Try this for the internet funding transactions:


https://www.gearpay.com/

[Addax]

Try this for the internet funding transactions:


https://www.gearpay.com/

That is the site I was trying to remember.

Thanks 1911_Mitch.

[rkt88edmo]

SPG, you won't be left hanging alone, that's for sure!

[amzych]

I'm definitely in to contribute whatever I can to the defense fund if this pans out. Godspeed swimmingpoolguy, we're all with you.

[Thrillbilly]

Im willing to donate if needed!!!

[gunluvver]

I've been a member now for less than 24 hours. My reason for joining was to garner information on how to LEGALLY afford my son and my grandsons the opportunity to own an AK and a FAL rifle as residents of what was once my home state in California. I left in 1995 and moved to the Northwest. I couldn't take the serious erosions of my personal liberties, as I was brought up hunting and fishing by an LEO father who knew and instilled in me what was right and what was wrong. I sorely miss off-roading in the deserts or spending my summers in the Owens Valley. My sister still has my father's cabin in Lone Pine, and when I get a rare chance to go there it still brings tears to my eyes to wake up and see Mt. Whitney in the early morning light.
All this is being told to let you know that I'm here to chip in, on behalf of my son, who is also a pool guy on the construction end, and of my grandsons who deserve the rights that were arbitrarily taken away while I still lived there. Their culture is being destroyed every day by these laws that do nothing but make criminals of the innocent, by a government that puts more value in granting welfare and freebies to people who don't even have a legal right to be here, and by a whole undercurrent of darkness that says to your kids that the only thing that's important is what songs you need to download onto your Ipod. If events have transpired as they have been purported to in this thread, this may be the 2nd step to win back your freedoms. An election is just a few days away. The people that support the wrongs that you suffer want to keep their jobs. Replacing them is your first step. Get out and vote, and make your friends get out and vote. You wanna get PO'ed, then do it at the polls, as EVERY vote counts! You guys have a long road ahead of you. If an injustice was done to SPGuy, it was done to all of you and the responsible parties must be made to answer to it TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW, WITHOUT QUARTER! If you take the deal, it will be business as usual for them, and against you. I want to wish you all good luck from the other side of the fence. I'll contribute as soon as details are finalized. Hopefully this site will still be alive, I see that it's demise may be forthcoming! I pray that won't happen.
gunluvver

[psssniper]

gunluvver
well said my friend!

[anotherted]

Lotsa pool techs on here..... Had a route for a couple of years...

As did I a number of years ago. Hows the PH and Alkalinity?:eek:

Good luck swimmingpoolguy. We're all pulling for you.

[M. Sage]

It would be nice if Mr Haas or someone working with the defendant's lawyer and the specifics of the case could eventually post a very generic guideline of what we should be doing to maximize our chances of staying out of trouble. Don't know if that will be possible or not without jepordizing the case.


This isn't going to move very quickly, yet, IMO. Give it a week at least. I'm sure we'll get as much as possible (and then some, in all likelyhood), later. For right now, if you're uncomfortable or nervous with your fixed mag out in public, just leave it at home. :(

Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about it.... yet.

[Spawn_X]

add me to the legal fund donation.

[Jicko]

Let me make a couple of points.
3. If he doesn't, or if the Milpitas group lowers don't come back soon, then poolguy and those guys have a 1983 Federal Action based on a 5th Amendment takings case. Even the 9th circuit realizes that the 5th amendment means what it says about property not being taken without compensation.

So what happened to the Milpitas group errrr?
Has it been like... 10mos now?
Those lowers are no where to be seen....

So poolguy getting his rifle back.....not anytime soon.....

Will he be charged? Not likely at all..... (if the rifle is indeed in a legal configuration).....

It will probably be easier to just go out and get another OLL.....

[hawk1]

Tagged for defense/offense fund and hang in the SPG.

[Hopi]

So what happened to the Milpitas group errrr?
Has it been like... 10mos now?
Those lowers are no where to be seen....

So poolguy getting his rifle back.....not anytime soon.....

Will he be charged? Not likely at all..... (if the rifle is indeed in a legal configuration).....

It will probably be easier to just go out and get another OLL.....

I think that the biggest difference between SPG and the Milpitas group is that SPG is proactively seeking justice and information that will lead to the return of his property. The Milpitas group, whether the buy was arranged as a group or not, needs to realize that after the purchase the lowers became individual personal property. It seems that some of the group members are waiting for some hero to grab an ice cream cart and walk down the street handing out lowers like dilly-bars, returning them to the rightful owners.

[xenophobe]

This isn't going to move very quickly, yet, IMO. Give it a week at least.

A week?

Give it several months... unless the DA drops the charges, you won't really hear much about this for 3-6 months.... perhaps longer.

[BigMac]

Man...and I was ready to go braveheart on someone's a**!

http://www.magicdragon.com/Wallace/melblue2.gif

OK that scares me! Those guys lifted there kits to shake there stuff at the enemy :eek:

[artherd]

It seems that some of the group members are waiting for some hero to grab an ice cream cart and walk down the street handing out lowers like dilly-bars, returning them to the rightful owners.
******** beans you mean I gotta return this cart now? ;D

[Hopi]

******** beans you mean I gotta return this cart now? ;D

Of course not, put that thing to good use doing what it was meant to! I can just picture it now....
The ringing of the cart bells announce his arrival as Ben saunters around the block corner, wearing his finest black tuxedo. Pushing his cart slowly down the street, we can't help but wonder..."will it be Dilly Bars this time or perhaps some Rocket Pops?"

[ghostrider4evr]

I am in for your defense fund as well. Count me in for at least $200:)

[dhl]

Well, if it happened as has been posted on this board then it's bad for all concerned. It's bad for the legit gun owner and the gun shops, it's bad if the arresting officers were acting on their best information and thought they were doing the right thing.

If the officers didn't have correct then they are as much a victim as the gun owner. If they have a conscience then think how they'll feel knowing what they've done.

Did the goverment fail all concerned by not informing in a timely manner their own personel thereby allowing them to do what they did to an innocent man?

I'd buy a swimpoolguy T-shirt.

[Fjold]

I think that the biggest difference between SPG and the Milpitas group is that SPG is proactively seeking justice and information that will lead to the return of his property. The Milpitas group, whether the buy was arranged as a group or not, needs to realize that after the purchase the lowers became individual personal property. It seems that some of the group members are waiting for some hero to grab an ice cream cart and walk down the street handing out lowers like dilly-bars, returning them to the rightful owners.

The Milpitas group people were told by the people here to not do anything. Don't rock the boat, the attorney's will handle everything. (In 2 weeks)

[gunrun45]

I don't mean to rock the boat here and I am the new guy here...but I can tell you what standard opperating procedure is in most police departments.
If it has a magazine that can be removed from the gun (bolt action, pump 22's, shotguns, handguns, whatever...) the magazine is removed even if a tool is needed to make the gun safe for others to handle with less hazards. How so you expect us to safely store OLL AR so that it is obviously unloaded unless we remove the upper receiver? How many officers know how to do that?

I've even had to take weapons to specialists to have them rendered safe before I could book them into evidence. Its not standard opperating procedure though due to time constraints.

I do not believe that it was done with the intent to "make" a crime. The proper documentation of the process undertaken in the removal of the magazine and the condition in which it was originally found will be the key here.

[luvtolean]

Gunrun:

I expect them to do it the same way they'd store a SKS or a hinge plate mag bolt gun, or a tube fed rifle. Safely clear it, put it on safe, book it in. Heck, an AR even has a bolt hold open. C'mon...that's not much of an excuse.

If this went down as it reads, the officers committed a felony by making an AW here.

[gunrun45]

Gunrun:

I expect them to do it the same way they'd store a SKS or a hinge plated bolt gun, or a tube fed rifle. Safely clear it, put it on safe. Heck, an AR even has a bolt hold open. C'mon...that's lame.

The officers clearly committed a felony by making an AW here.

Those tubes can be removed, sks's commonly have the mag swung down and the action zip-tied open. This is a home made weapon. Its not something that you come accross every day and you can't expect a patrol officer to know how the weapon was modified to opperate. Removing the mag is the KIS way to make it obviously safe.

Sorry, just common practice.

By the way, LE has an exemption for posession for AW's. You can't prosecute the officer for making a AW if it was the safest way to render the weapon safe.

Have you ever slapped an AR on the butstock? The bolt comes forward pretty easy. If you have no place to run a zip tie (no open mag well remember to run it through) you can't render it obviously safe. My evidence clerk would have my hide if I didn't zip tie the action of a weapon open.

[Charliegone]

Wait. Why did they consficate it in the first place...and if they did remove the fixed mag and made it into and AW its not the guys fault. These guys just opened a can worms and are gonna screwed so bad for making a big mistake like this...hell this might even help in invalidating SB23 and RR because they just can't be enforced.

[luvtolean]

Gunrun-good points. They may or may not have been able to pop the floorplate of the magazine instead of removing it. But that would take some knowledge they may or may not have.

You do not know this is a homemade rifle. I bought a rifle, from an FFL, brand new, with a fixed mag kit. I have not personally modified the weapon in anyway.

I'm not at all in favor of "busting" the officers.

This is the fault of the DOJ not properly notifying LEOs of how the laws work, hoping through fear and their malfeasance citizens will be too afraid to own these weapons, and dealers afraid to sell them.

[hawk1]

Those tubes can be removed, sks's commonly have the mag swung down and the action zip-tied open. This is a home made weapon. Its not something that you come accross every day and you can't expect a patrol officer to know how the weapon was modified to opperate. Removing the mag is the KIS way to make it obviously safe.

Sorry, just common practice.


Home made weapon? That's a stretch. What would you guys do with a Vulcan or say a Bushmaster? You don't come a cross a Barret 50 cal everyday either...So what would you do with that? You get my point? If the officer, I said If went to the trouble of removing the mag with a tool then it could have been for more than to make it safe...

[gunrun45]

This is the fault of the DOJ not properly notifying LEOs of how the laws work, hoping through fear and their malfeasance citizens will be too afraid to own these weapons, and dealers afraid to sell them.

Agreed. They don't make much sense to me either and I's on eof the guys who enforces their rules.

[gunrun45]

Home made weapon? That's a stretch. What would you guys do with a Vulcan or say a Bushmaster? You don't come a cross a Barret 50 cal everyday either...So what would you do with that? You get my point? If the officer, I said If went to the trouble of removing the mag with a tool then it could have been for more than to make it safe...

I would remove the magazine and render it as safe as I could. I would use a screw driver to remove a pop down floor plate on a bolt action rifle also.

A Barret 50 is either a bolt gun or a semi, both have magazines and I would remove them. I would then zip-tie the action open to make it oviously safe and incapable of firing without overt actions by a user.

I said home made weapon. I should have said "more commonly assembled at home weapon" to clarify for you. We have no idea what modifications you have made to your guns. We treat them all as questionable unless it comes out of one of our armories (maybe even then). As such we take ALL AVAILABEL steps in an attempt to make sure that the weapon can not harm anyone while it is in our custody without making perminiant modifications or any modifications that should be only attempted by a gun smith (removing firing pins, etc..) This is done for the safety of evidence clerks, records people, other officers that may come into contact with the firearm, prosecutors, defence attorney's, court staff, etc...

[luvtolean]

By the way, LE has an exemption for posession for AW's. You can't prosecute the officer for making a AW if it was the safest way to render the weapon safe.

Legally I'm not sure you're right about that. Practically I agree. But you most certainly can prosecute him.

This man was prosecuted/arrested for what was a legally configured rifle.

The real question will be how it is ruled in court.

Have you ever slapped an AR on the butstock? The bolt comes forward pretty easy. If you have no place to run a zip tie (no open mag well remember to run it through)

Sure. They do close pretty easily. I would have no trouble running a zip tie past the mag while in place on my AR.

[luvtolean]

I would remove the magazine and render it as safe as I could. I would use a screw driver to remove a pop down floor plate on a bolt action rifle also.

You could use that same screwdriver to pull the floorplate off the fixed mag DEPENDING on the mag used.

[gunrun45]

You could use that same screwdriver to pull the floorplate off the fixed mag DEPENDING on the mag used.

True. Most officers don't want to start prying at anything that might come out of their pay check though:D but you are right.

[WokMaster1]

This is the fault of the DOJ not properly notifying LEOs of how the laws work, hoping through fear and their malfeasance citizens will be too afraid to own these weapons, and dealers afraid to sell them.

Agreed. They don't make much sense to me either and I's on eof the guys who enforces their rules.


But failure to know the law is no excuse. That subject has been brought up here over & over & that cannot be used as an excuse. The courts have repeatedly shown this in traffic violations, white & blue collar crimes, underaged sex crimes (I didn't know she was under age) shootings (I didn't know my mother in law was behind the oven) etc, etc.

So we're clearly looking at a "Do as I say Not as I do" scenario here. Smells like communism to me. They seem to be above the law here.

[Richie Rich]

While I think this whole thing is BS, there is no way the LEO that took posession of the rifle can be considered as having commited a crime...

Be like a cop being being arrested for transporting narcotics while carrying evidence to the station.

As long as it was documented and the LEO has to testify in court that he indeed removed the magazine (using a tool). It is a non issue..

[anotherone]

You could use that same screwdriver to pull the floorplate off the fixed mag DEPENDING on the mag used.

That is actually a great idea and from now on I'll be transporting my off-list rifles with the floorplate and follower removed. That makes it easiest to clear the weapon.

[bridgeport]

If it is as has been said, that the officers in question removed the magazine
via using a tool... then it's case closed in a court of law. Tampering with the evidence(in this case the mag and mag locking device) would likely render
it inadmissable under most circumstances, and in any case the officers would have to testify that they used a tool to remove the mag which at least would appear to show the mag was indeed fixed if indeed it does go to trial.
Of course a cop could fib to the court, but we all know that cops dont do that kind of thing.

[jojojones]

Kepp your head up spg...I am down for the defense fund just post the info.



jojo

[bwiese]

While I think this whole thing is BS, there is no way the LEO that took posession of the rifle can be considered as having commited a crime...

Be like a cop being being arrested for transporting narcotics while carrying evidence to the station.

Not quite. The cop actually manufactured an illegal assault weapon by removing the fixed magazine. He committed a 12280(a) violation.

PDs do not have dispensation to manufacture assault weapons.

[thmpr]

If it is as has been said, that the officers in question removed the magazine
via using a tool... then it's case closed in a court of law. Tampering with the evidence(in this case the mag and mag locking device) would likely render
it inadmissable under most circumstances, and in any case the officers would have to testify that they used a tool to remove the mag which at least would appear to show the mag was indeed fixed if indeed it does go to trial.
Of course a cop could fib to the court, but we all know that cops dont do that kind of thing.


Key words......use of a tool... clearly in parallel with the law.

[luvtolean]

Not quite. The cop actually manufactured an illegal assault weapon by removing the fixed magazine. He committed a 12280(a) violation.

PDs do not have dispensation to manufacture assault weapons.

Yeah, the drug analogy doesn't hold true. It's not like the cops cook up some crank and then put it into evidence.

The rifle was legal when they seized it, and they manufactured it into an assault weapon.

[bwiese]

OK folks, calm down.

This ain't really DOJ stuff. These were local PD issues - the San Jose one and the San Diego one.

The only purported DOJ action was apparently seizing two guns from a Merced (?) area gunshop.

San Jose (Santa Clara County) currently has one other off-list AW case going involving an off-list nonAR/nonAK rifle with no evil features. It is being asserted as an AW because of "AK series-ness" even though they can't do it. (A cop was relied on for this assertion, the crime lab reports saying no legal determination of AW status could be found) were not submitted into evidence, etc. DA is keeping on with the case because some/all other charges [orig D.V.-related in a contentious divorce] are dropped and the DA wants to get some mileage out of the case given resources currently expended. This will go away, a good lawyer is involved, and there's some politics behind this in the DA's office - things will change after election.

Stuff like this will continue given that POST training standards no longer include assault weapons training section, the DOJ's Assault Weapons Identification Guide is way out of date (nor explains Harrott modification of Kasler issues) and no effort by the chief law enforcement officer (AG & his minions) has been expended in the past 6 years to achieve clarity or uniformity.

I have some hope that this new SJ case will go away because the DA's crime lab may be able report its non-AW status, although the SJPD's officer illegally manufacturing an assault weapon from a legal fixed-mag rifle may muddy the situation. The gunshop that sold 'swimmingpoolguy' the rifle can certify it left the shop in fixed mag status, and that the client was advised unfixing the mag, unless in a legal grip-free/no telestock/no flash hider status, would be illegal. SJPD investigating detectives did interview the gunshop staff and found several such legal fixed-mag rifles for sale, and continuing to do so.

So,
(1) RELAX.
(2) The NRA & its lawyers are aware of these events. Things may stir when appropriate.
(3) If you're not an NRA member, you really should be.
(4) The letter of the law and the regulations were followed by these owners.

[artherd]

As far as I know, there is no 12280(a) exemption for Law Enforcement.

[anotherone]

As far as I know, there is no 12280(a) exemption for Law Enforcement.

This is why most of the early AW busts were all law enforcement officers at ranges according to most accounts. I still remember the extra reg period that was opened up for LEOs because many of them thought there were exempt and didn't reg.

[xenophobe]

As far as I know, there is no 12280(a) exemption for Law Enforcement.

There is, but it doesn't specifically exempt LE from 'manufacturing'. However the arresting officer would be allowed to take possession of an AW temporarily.

And even if the officer was found to have modified the rifle to trigger AW status, if he was following SOP, then charges probably wouldn't even be considered.


(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit or prohibit the delivery, transfer, or sale of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle to, or the possession of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle by, a member of a federal law enforcement agency provided that person is authorized by the employing agency to possess the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle.

[Whitesmoke]

......How so you expect us to safely store OLL AR so that it is obviously unloaded unless we remove the upper receiver? How many officers know how to do that?



That sounds like the proper way they could have done it. Just remove the upper reciever. Or just push the rear pin and fold it like a double barrel shotgun and ziptie it. Pretty obvious it's safe like that.

You asked, "How many officers know how to do that?"......most all the ones ones I know do....they all have an AR's in their trunk around here. And several of them are buddies of mine.

It seems to me you wouldn't tamper with the modification that is your main evidence.....my twocents.

Hey...I'm not trying to knock you either...you sounds like your a reasonable guy.:)

[Matt640h]

Are there any news articles or stories related to this bad bust? I don't want to jepordize SPG's case or defense but I wouldn't mind reading any details that are public knowledge.

[Skawrpion]

Wow! was gone for this past weekend just finished reading all 19 pages worth, count me in for funds help if necessary.

[jnojr]

I do not believe that it was done with the intent to "make" a crime. The proper documentation of the process undertaken in the removal of the magazine and the condition in which it was originally found will be the key here.

I don't care. I should be able to possess a "real" AR-15, or any other firearm for that matter, because I have no "intent" to commit a crime.

With gun laws, they've made the "intent" simply the fact that you're breaking the law. If LEOs remove fixed magazines, they're committing a felony.

I'm a huge supporter of the police. But the answer here isn't to give them a free pass... this is a perfect example of why CAs "assault weapon" laws are so screwed up. If a cop gets charged with a felony for "making a weapon safe", then no other cop will want to touch our rifles for anything, and that's a Good Thing.

What about the poor cop who was just doing his job? Well, what about the poor average citizen who was just trying to live his life and exercise his Constitutionally-guaranteed rights?

[jnojr]

OK folks, calm down.

This ain't really DOJ stuff. These were local PD issues - the San Jose one and the San Diego one.

What "San Diego one"???

[luvtolean]

OK folks, calm down.

This ain't really DOJ stuff. These were local PD issues - the San Jose one and the San Diego one.

Stuff like this will continue given that POST training standards no longer include assault weapons training section, the DOJ's Assault Weapons Identification Guide is way out of date (nor explains Harrott modification of Kasler issues) and no effort by the chief law enforcement officer (AG & his minions) has been expended in the past 6 years to achieve clarity or uniformity.

And this is exactly what I was referring to when I placed blame on the DOJ. It is DOJ stuff.

[echoplex]

I just joined the NRA, and will help support anyone willing to fight the DOJ if this turns out to be violation of the people's laws as they are written.

I'll be out at the range shooting my OLLs in support this weekend as well.

DOJ: Please PM me for an exact location if you'd like to come confiscate my lawfully owned weapons too.

Best of luck SPG.

[swimmingpoolguy]

I want to thank you guys for your help in locating a lawyer. I really appreciate the fact that a person I do not know would take a minute out their busy life to help me out. Thanks

[NSR500]

Hope everything works out and I hope you feel better now that you've spoken to a Lawyer.
Just remember to let us know if you'll need the defense fund and what we can do to help you.

[azn_wrx]

I want to thank you guys for your help in locating a lawyer. I really appreciate the fact that a person I do not know would take a minute out their busy life to help me out. Thanks

This is a great community! Of course we would help a person who was getting screwed, who wouldnt?

[luvtolean]

I want to thank you guys for your help in locating a lawyer. I really appreciate the fact that a person I do not know would take a minute out their busy life to help me out. Thanks

Not a person, a whole community of fired up people.

As it was said, don't hesitate to shout if you need some help with the defense fund.

[Pokey]

500 members donating $50.00 would = to $25,000. Would this be enough for a lawyer?

:rolleyes:

Count me in!

Keep us posted (as best you can and not cause yourself grief)

[bwiese]

I gather The Right People, as the late Hunter S. Thompson would say (including capitals) know about this now in detail.

[M. Sage]

I gather The Right People, as the late Hunter S. Thompson would say (including capitals) know about this now in detail.

That's what it sounded like to me, too. :D I hope so!

[thisismyboomstick]

Back to the LEO removing the mag...

Didn't the Sheriff of Kern County file a suit awhile back stating that the AW laws were too vague/complex for his deputies to properly enforce them, let alone the average citzen not inadvertently break them? It seems that the fact that it is impossible for a LEO to properly perform their duties in rendering a weapon safe without committing a felony would give him some ammunition in his case.

[Bishop]

If this turns out to be THE case, you can put me down for a couple hundred dollars SPG!

They didn't just arrest you, they arrested all of us!

[KDOFisch]

Just to clarify-

What would the steps be (beyond getting the case thrown out) to what some are referring to a takedown of SB23?

I'm not ignorant of the laws surrounding SB23 and PC12280, but I am trying to deduce what procedure this pending test case would warrant to break down CA AW laws so complicated they could be used as a sleep aid.

Thanks.

Oh and SPG- Count me in for the fund (Big +1)

[ghettoshecky]

yeah brother, count me in at least $50, btw what San Diego incident???

[artherd]

Just to clarify-

What would the steps be (beyond getting the case thrown out) to what some are referring to a takedown of SB23?


Well first you issue intentionally misleading letters for a few years. Then when pressed hard you finally admit that OLLs actually do exist.

THEN you certify in writing that you are going to list them, causing Californians to spend $millions in reliance on your written statement.

Then you recant, issue an illegal memo, then recant that, and issue another illegal memo, then push some legislation through that will support your illegal memo, only you realize you are not a political demigod afterall, and when your legislation gets ridden hard and put away wet, you realize your entire podium of an "us vs them" attitude is really a logical fallicy and a great waste of your time, you go ahead and update the list one more time for posterity sake and give residents a good nice notice, like you gave us notice of the various memos using the secret illegaly kept DROS data culled for OLLs, cross referenced with AW reg OOPS I MEAN JUST 1 in 10 RANDOM AW OWNERS...

Actually, you don't do the last part but continue to take an absurdly hard-line hostile stance, and give various pro-gun groups all the ammo (pun) they need to cut SB23 down at the roots (heh another pun)

[artherd]

Just to clarify-

What would the steps be (beyond getting the case thrown out) to what some are referring to a takedown of SB23?


Well first you issue intentionally misleading letters for a few years. Then when pressed hard you finally admit that OLLs actually do exist.

THEN you certify in writing that you are going to list them, causing Californians to spend $millions in reliance on your written statement.

Then you recant, issue an illegal memo, then recant that, and issue another illegal memo, then push some legislation through that will support your illegal memo, only you realize you are not a political demigod afterall, and when your legislation gets ridden hard and put away wet, you realize your entire podium of an "us vs them" attitude is really a logical fallicy and a great waste of your time, you go ahead and update the list one more time for posterity sake and give residents a good nice notice, like you gave us notice of the various memos using the secret illegaly kept DROS data culled for OLLs, cross referenced with AW reg OOPS I MEAN JUST 1 in 10 RANDOM AW OWNERS...

[anotherone]

you go ahead and update the list one more time for posterity sake and give residents a good nice notice

I gotta be honest that for a long time I didn't think they'd ever update the list and if they did it would defeat the whole point of their regulatory efforts. However, with the final version of AB2728 essentially becomming a pro-gun bill and the regulatory efforts beginning to look extremely murkey due to prior letters and the M-82CA I'm beginning to feel more like they will in fact list.

They'll quietly slip in a new list for the new year to support the regulation. Because a new list would ban everything out there with a fixed mag it would basically clean up their mess. They wouldn't have to worry about anything because all new AR-15s would automatically be unlawful to build up with a fixed mag as would anything that wasn't registered. And at this point they've already decided and moved forward with a policy that clearly states fixed mag rifles ARE detachable mag rifles so what's the big deal if they're regged anyhow.

[blkA4alb]

I gotta be honest that for a long time I didn't think they'd ever update the list and if they did it would defeat the whole point of their regulatory efforts. However, with the final version of AB2728 essentially becomming a pro-gun bill and the regulatory efforts beginning to look extremely murkey due to prior letters and the M-82CA I'm beginning to feel more like they will in fact list.

They'll quietly slip in a new list for the new year to support the regulation. Because a new list would ban everything out there with a fixed mag it would basically clean up their mess. They wouldn't have to worry about anything because all new AR-15s would automatically be unlawful to build up with a fixed mag as would anything that wasn't registered. And at this point they've already decided and moved forward with a policy that clearly states fixed mag rifles ARE detachable mag rifles so what's the big deal if they're regged anyhow.
Dude, besides the fact they can't just decide to ban fix mags. :rolleyes: I'm not going to help them by further discussing it.

[anotherone]

Dude, besides the fact they can't just decide to ban fix mags. :rolleyes: I'm not going to help them by further discussing it.

I wouldn't be completely surprised if there were a couple more memos and other regulatory attempts in the future. Their current course of action might have actually worked if they hadn't created such a huge papertrail.

[blkA4alb]

I wouldn't be completely surprised if there were a couple more memos and other regulatory attempts in the future. Their current course of action might have actually worked if they hadn't created such a huge papertrail.
By all means let them (her) try.

[ivanimal]

I went away for the weekend and this happens. I read all 22 pages and it is late, I offer my support in any way possible.

As a life member of the NRA they would have been my first call. As Bill Weise said, if you arent a member already become one.

http://membership.nrahq.org/

Poolguy, I am fully behind you and will do whatever it takes, judging by the responses from other members, they are too.

[gh429]

I'm in for paypal. I don't think they can freeze the account - it's a political contribution no?

Anyways, I'd like to be added to a contribution list if there ever is one created. And yes, I'm an NRA member.

[rod]

I can't add anything to this conversation that hasn't already been said but I'm down for some $ when the time comes.

[chiefcrash]

Two Weeks!!!

[mblat]

I gotta be honest that for a long time I didn't think they'd ever update the list and if they did it would defeat the whole point of their regulatory efforts. However, with the final version of AB2728 essentially becomming a pro-gun bill and the regulatory efforts beginning to look extremely murkey due to prior letters and the M-82CA I'm beginning to feel more like they will in fact list.

They'll quietly slip in a new list for the new year to support the regulation. Because a new list would ban everything out there with a fixed mag it would basically clean up their mess. They wouldn't have to worry about anything because all new AR-15s would automatically be unlawful to build up with a fixed mag as would anything that wasn't registered. And at this point they've already decided and moved forward with a policy that clearly states fixed mag rifles ARE detachable mag rifles so what's the big deal if they're regged anyhow.

In 2 weeks? Actually I am other way around. I thought - they would list and then put person in charge to update list as soon as new OLL pops out. May be try to procecute couple OLL manufactures on some charges.
That would effectively reduce OLL inflow to near 0.

Now - I don't see upside for them listing, so I don't think they will. I hope you are right, though....

[bwiese]

I thought - they would list and then put person in charge
to update list as soon as new OLL pops out.

I think that's what nonpolitical staff/line employees of DOJ wanted to do: monitor marketplace, and list when necessary.

Deputy AG Alllison Merrrilees instead wanted us to have useless hunks of metal instead. Rumor has it she thought it was funny that we wanted these as, at first, she though they really couldn't be built up into anything useful. She had told several folks in early Jan that they'd be listing soon - in fact, Igggy's 'two weeks' comes from her.

So her pettiness & arrogance overruled this and led to the flood of OLLs in CA. That's why the Feb 3 "Category 4" memo - now totally repudiated given the variety of illegal DOJ actions it asserted - has such a panicky tone. [If you re-read that memo and disregard all the technical/legal issues and merely listen to the 'tone', you can hear the "oh no, what hath I wrought" desparation.]

May be try to procecute couple OLL manufactures on some charges.
That would effectively reduce OLL inflow to near 0.

No. They tried F.U.D. and dampened things a bit with some vendors (Fulton Armory snatching Wes @ 10%'s order mid-air).

But formal legal action? Harrott is clear, and 12280(a) is clear. In fact, 12280(a) contains the modifying clause "..., within this state, ...".

[luvtolean]

So her pettiness & arrogance overruled this and led to the flood of OLLs in CA. That's why the Feb 3 "Category 4" memo - now totally repudiated given the variety of illegal DOJ actions it asserted - has such a panicky tone. [If you re-read that memo and disregard all the technical/legal issues and merely listen to the 'tone', you can hear the "oh no, what hath I wrought" desparation.]

Totally. If you read early versions of 2728 you can feel the same panic. I've never laughed when I read a bill before, but I couldn't help but chuckle on that one.

[mblat]

I think that's what nonpolitical staff/line employees of DOJ wanted to do: monitor marketplace, and list when necessary.

Deputy AG Alllison Merrrilees instead wanted us to have useless hunks of metal instead. Rumor has it she thought it was funny that we wanted these as, at first, she though they really couldn't be built up into anything useful. She had told several folks in early Jan that they'd be listing soon - in fact, Igggy's 'two weeks' comes from her.

So her pettiness & arrogance overruled this and led to the flood of OLLs in CA. That's why the Feb 3 "Category 4" memo - now totally repudiated given the variety of illegal DOJ actions it asserted - has such a panicky tone. [If you re-read that memo and disregard all the technical/legal issues and merely listen to the 'tone', you can hear the "oh no, what hath I wrought" desparation.]




No. They tried F.U.D. and dampened things a bit with some vendors (Fulton Armory snatching Wes @ 10%'s order mid-air).

But formal legal action? Harrott is clear, and 12280(a) is clear. In fact, 12280(a) contains the modifying clause "..., within this state, ...".



Sometimes I even understand usually despised by me “conspirologists”. A person raised in tradition of European rational thinking, wants for society development to be part of a plan, however hateful, however vile toward the entire human race, but still rational. For him easier to allow that the World is ruled by the evil, than to accept the obvious: the World is ruled by chaos, complete incompetence and mind boggling lack of responsibility from “THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE DECISIONS”.

- Kirill Es'kov


Still - they won't list, correct? What is your take on it?

[Boarding-Team-Leader]

I want to thank you guys for your help in locating a lawyer. I really appreciate the fact that a person I do not know would take a minute out their busy life to help me out. Thanks

Were all "brothers in arms" regarding this OLL issue. We have rifles that are legal according to California law. You have more new friends than you could possibly imagine:D Hopefully this will never make it to court, but if it does you are going to have one heck of a large cheering section behind you.
BTL

[anotherone]

Totally. If you read early versions of 2728 you can feel the same panic. I've never laughed when I read a bill before, but I couldn't help but chuckle on that one.

AB2728 was so paniced that opportunistic legislators and the NRA were able to hijack the bill and turn it into a pro-gun bill that reduced penalties for being caught with an AW and prevented any new firearms from being declared AWs.

[bwiese]

AB2728 was so panikced that opportunistic legislators and the NRA were able to hijack the bill and turn it into a pro-gun bill that reduced penalties for being caught with an AW and prevented any new firearms from being declared AWs.

Close, but not quite. 2728 merely offers an easier, alternative path so DA is not 'forced' to charge a full-house AW violation, or has something to offer in a downward plea so as to not lose face. 12280(a) and (b) are still on the books, it is not all milk & honey.

Yes, this is the first time I've seen a bureucratic agency want to give up an aspect of power/authority.

[faterikcartman]

That'd work just fine... it'd be entrapment.

You're assuming the police always tell the truth about what happened, like with the Rampart police scandal in L.A. (sarcasm intended).

[grammaton76]

like you gave us notice of the various memos using the secret illegaly kept DROS data culled for OLLs, cross referenced with AW reg OOPS I MEAN JUST 1 in 10 RANDOM AW OWNERS...

Actually, I work with a guy who received one of those letters, and he doesn't own any OLL's. Just registered AW's.

[grammaton76]

Still - they won't list, correct? What is your take on it?

My take is that I view it as a 50/50 thing at the tail end of December.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: for all we know, they've already resigned themselves to updating the list. But the last thing they're going to do is tell US about it, because they know it'd touch off a buying frenzy.

By the way, lowers are starting to get scarce again, as reflected by the "sold out" signs decorating many dealers and higher prices on the ones which are still in stock.

If you don't have your ideal number of lowers or receivers (in the case of AK's) now, get 'em before they go up.

In the interests of fair disclosure, I do work at CWS's booth at gun shows, but I am not on commission and receive no compensation for increased sales. I don't care where you buy your receivers, just don't get caught in the cold.

I mean, worst case scenario coming from buying your receivers now... there's no list on 1/1/07, but you've still got your receivers for your future builds AND they're secure vs federal bans in case anti's get a bigger foothold during election year.

[Mirage]

I have always figured they wanted the misdemeanor put in as a confiscation aid. You don't squawk and give up the rifle, misdemeanor charge. Make trouble and you get the book thrown at you.

[Ford8N]

My take is that I view it as a 50/50 thing at the tail end of December.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: for all we know, they've already resigned themselves to updating the list. But the last thing they're going to do is tell US about it, because they know it'd touch off a buying frenzy.

By the way, lowers are starting to get scarce again, as reflected by the "sold out" signs decorating many dealers and higher prices on the ones which are still in stock.

If you don't have your ideal number of lowers or receivers (in the case of AK's) now, get 'em before they go up.

In the interests of fair disclosure, I do work at CWS's booth at gun shows, but I am not on commission and receive no compensation for increased sales. I don't care where you buy your receivers, just don't get caught in the cold.

I mean, worst case scenario coming from buying your receivers now... there's no list on 1/1/07, but you've still got your receivers for your future builds AND they're secure vs federal bans in case anti's get a bigger foothold during election year.



I've noticed lowers getting a little scarce now too. Everyone should be stocking up right now. Get on the phone and order...

[6172crew]

Addressed to Randy Rossi, Director CA DOJ Firearms Division via email 10/18/06:

I believe these questions are warranted- I feel I should get the answers from a man's boss /employer before taking legal action against that man. This will serve to separate department policy from actions taken by Mr **************** ********.
As we discussed over the phone, I am emailing these questions to you:
Please respond yes or no.

1. Many of Mr. Chin’s actions are not supported in the state's current law books. Actions taken by the field agents relate all rulings and orders are coming directly from Mr. ********. Are you aware that Mr. ******** is acting beyond current law- that he is enforcing his policy as if it were law?

2. Is such activity supported by the DOJ?

3. It is Mr. ********'s agenda to prove a specific firearm, one that is not currently an assault weapon, and not a machine gun, to be an illegal "machine gun." He has told me that he will continue to experiment with and modify this gun to the end that it becomes a machine gun, then allowing him to aid in prosecution of everyone in possession of the un-modified guns of this type. Are you aware of this activity?

4. Is it legal for a law-enforcement official to make a seized weapon illegal- after its seizure?

5. Are all of the following true definitions of the word crime?

a. Crime: noun 1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.

b. CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state or Congress as a felony or misdemeanor.

c. A crime is an offence against a public law. This word, in its most general sense, includes all offences, but in its more limited sense is confined to felony.

6. Guns are being seized without a requirement that the agents identify a penal code violation to justify their action. Providing that there is no legal prohibition, considering the previous definition, has a crime in fact been committed?

7. Mr. ******** justifies these seizures by this line: "the laws regarding these guns are forthcoming."
Is it legal to enforce a "soon-to-be-law”?
For example- make an arrest today, write the law supporting the arrest tomorrow...

8. Can a sworn Peace Officer create and enforce a "policy" that supercedes current law?

The answer to this one may involve information you cannot share:
9. Has Mr. ******** ever been under department review or reprimanded for his actions against a member of the gun-owning public?

This one is short answer:
10. What would the possible consequences be for a Peace Officer who is enforcing vigilante justice at his discretion?

I must re-state my intentions here- only to define a line between DOJ department policy and the actions of one individual in that department. I hope that in no way this would identify any wrong-doing on your part or of the department as a whole. I appreciate your time and willingness to help in this matter. My only wish is to stop what I believe to be an injustice that has been allowed to prosper in the Department.

WTF, did you really send that baby?:cool:

[6172crew]

If ya need help dont be afraid to ask. Your questions need to be answered but I hope your going about it the right way.

Attacking the out going cop might not be teh one you want is all Im saying.

[Guinness]

I'd like to hear the response to those questions..

[BLFD1]

That looks like a great letter. I'll be suprised if you even get a response. Nobody is willing to answer questions like that! They don't want to be held accountable.

Good luck, let us know if/ when you get a response.

[6172crew]

I'm not attacking anybody- only asking the questions that need addressing by his superiors.
That must have come out wrong, what I mean is that teh cop your talking about is just about gone and maybe you should throw the question to any cop not just him.

Or be specific(who, what , where, etc.:) )

I didnt get any of that from your letter.:)

[Whitesmoke]

As a government employee not involved in law enforcement....that letter would get the attention of my superiors IF it included the "who, what , when, where, and how, etc."

[PIRATE14]

Addressed to Randy Rossi, Director CA DOJ Firearms Division via email 10/18/06:

I believe these questions are warranted- I feel I should get the answers from a man's boss /employer before taking legal action against that man. This will serve to separate department policy from actions taken by Mr **************** ********.
As we discussed over the phone, I am emailing these questions to you:
Please respond yes or no.

1. Many of Mr. Chin’s actions are not supported in the state's current law books. Actions taken by the field agents relate all rulings and orders are coming directly from Mr. ********. Are you aware that Mr. ******** is acting beyond current law- that he is enforcing his policy as if it were law?

2. Is such activity supported by the DOJ?

3. It is Mr. ********'s agenda to prove a specific firearm, one that is not currently an assault weapon, and not a machine gun, to be an illegal "machine gun." He has told me that he will continue to experiment with and modify this gun to the end that it becomes a machine gun, then allowing him to aid in prosecution of everyone in possession of the un-modified guns of this type. Are you aware of this activity?

4. Is it legal for a law-enforcement official to make a seized weapon illegal- after its seizure?

5. Are all of the following true definitions of the word crime?

a. Crime: noun 1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.

b. CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state or Congress as a felony or misdemeanor.

c. A crime is an offence against a public law. This word, in its most general sense, includes all offences, but in its more limited sense is confined to felony.

6. Guns are being seized without a requirement that the agents identify a penal code violation to justify their action. Providing that there is no legal prohibition, considering the previous definition, has a crime in fact been committed?

7. Mr. ******** justifies these seizures by this line: "the laws regarding these guns are forthcoming."
Is it legal to enforce a "soon-to-be-law”?
For example- make an arrest today, write the law supporting the arrest tomorrow...

8. Can a sworn Peace Officer create and enforce a "policy" that supercedes current law?

The answer to this one may involve information you cannot share:
9. Has Mr. ******** ever been under department review or reprimanded for his actions against a member of the gun-owning public?

This one is short answer:
10. What would the possible consequences be for a Peace Officer who is enforcing vigilante justice at his discretion?

I must re-state my intentions here- only to define a line between DOJ department policy and the actions of one individual in that department. I hope that in no way this would identify any wrong-doing on your part or of the department as a whole. I appreciate your time and willingness to help in this matter. My only wish is to stop what I believe to be an injustice that has been allowed to prosper in the Department.

While this is a good start......
Probably better if it's sent via a signed letter to include the 5 W's
And better still if you have the 5 W's get a lawyer to send it and request a formal written response.

Cause they'll probably just brush it aside......

[xenophobe]

While this is a good start......
Probably better if it's sent via a signed letter to include the 5 W's
And better still if you have the 5 W's get a lawyer to send it and request a formal written response.

Cause they'll probably just brush it aside......

+1

I couldn't agree more. Have a lawyer draft it, sent Certified Mail.

[Wulf]

If that doesn't work, I sent the letter to 89 offices and agencies including all the state reps with an "R" next to their name, all CA State senators with "R" next to the name,.....

Nice little october suprise if if any of them have the nuts to do it.

[mur]

My take is that I view it as a 50/50 thing at the tail end of December.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: for all we know, they've already resigned themselves to updating the list. But the last thing they're going to do is tell US about it, because they know it'd touch off a buying frenzy.

By the way, lowers are starting to get scarce again, as reflected by the "sold out" signs decorating many dealers and higher prices on the ones which are still in stock.

If you don't have your ideal number of lowers or receivers (in the case of AK's) now, get 'em before they go up.

In the interests of fair disclosure, I do work at CWS's booth at gun shows, but I am not on commission and receive no compensation for increased sales. I don't care where you buy your receivers, just don't get caught in the cold.

I mean, worst case scenario coming from buying your receivers now... there's no list on 1/1/07, but you've still got your receivers for your future builds AND they're secure vs federal bans in case anti's get a bigger foothold during election year.

Just picked up a few lowers from my FFL and was told that more than a few Police Officers were also stocking up:)

[6172crew]

Working on that- Don Kilmer and myself have a phone conference for next Teusday morning.
If that doesn't work, I sent the letter to 89 offices and agencies including all the state reps with an "R" next to their name, all CA State senators with "R" next to the name, US Justice Dept in DC, State DOJ public affairs, Governor's office, The office of the Inspector General of the US, and California, The FBI's Internal Investigation Division in DC, FBI California, Attorney general of the US. Public forums including, but not milited to: Mike Savage, Bill Mick, local news channels at :Fox, NBC, CBS, UPN. 11 local newspapers, Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership, NRA, ILA, CRPA, and many others.

SOME of these people will be expecting to: 1. find out what this is all about and 2. hear the responses.

This is going to be good.:D Someone should blind side the current AG with this crap.

Keep us posted.:)

[BLFD1]

Is there any new news from Swimmingpoolguy or CRTGuns about the OLL seizures?

[blacklisted]

Very interesting.

7. Mr. ******** justifies these seizures by this line: "the laws regarding these guns are forthcoming."
Is it legal to enforce a "soon-to-be-law”?
For example- make an arrest today, write the law supporting the arrest tomorrow...

Good luck with your conference with Don Kilmer. I hope for the best.

[Joe]

Working on that- Don Kilmer and myself have a phone conference for next Teusday morning.
If that doesn't work, I sent the letter to 89 offices and agencies including all the state reps with an "R" next to their name, all CA State senators with "R" next to the name, US Justice Dept in DC, State DOJ public affairs, Governor's office, The office of the Inspector General of the US, and California, The FBI's Internal Investigation Division in DC, FBI California, Attorney general of the US. Public forums including, but not milited to: Mike Savage, Bill Mick, local news channels at :Fox, NBC, CBS, UPN. 11 local newspapers, Jews for Preservation of Firearms Ownership, NRA, ILA, CRPA, and many others.

SOME of these people will be expecting to: 1. find out what this is all about and 2. hear the responses.

what happened to CRTguns posts in this thread? I found his quoted posts but now the originals are gone.

anyway, how did the conference go?

[fiveflat]

Wow - I just read all 24 pages of this thread. Surprisingly, it's only a 13 day long thread without a ending, and didn't get the answer to the search I was looking for.

What ever happened to swimmingpoolguy? I wish I was around 6 months ago to help out if needed.
Also, what I was searching for was the true legitimacy of the Mag lock. What is the official result of this? Is the Prince50 legit?

[bwiese]

'Swimmingpoolguy' had all charges dropped way before any trial occurred, and he got his rifle back.

[fiveflat]

Bof?

You've all got me confused now. I AM a newbie and don't know all these code words.

[huskydog]

I willing to give for a good cause and this sounds like it. I'm in for at least $100.00 when the time comes.

[Rem1492]

I think its all said and done Husky. But I am sure DOJ will never rest. DA's need job security and there are plenty of black rifles to freak out over these days.

[Charliegone]

Bof?

You've all got me confused now. I AM a newbie and don't know all these code words.

BOF..check out the firearms section of the DOJ website...you'll see they changed their.."emblem" Its Bureau of Firearms...