Legality of Samurai Swords in California

[anotherone]

Guys I know this isn't gun related but it is weapon related and frankly I just didn't know where else to ask. I am well aware that carrying a sword in California is unlawful but is it lawful to have a real sword (not decorative) in your collection at home? Furthermore would it be lawful to sell this sword to another collector?

[Neil McCauley]

ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!! jk

Lots of people have em, just don't use it as a weapon or in a threatening manner towards anyone (including your little brother). Most of the ones I've seen are dull and not razor sharp.


Neil

[ts]

(asian accent) Just don't dishonor your self or your family:D

[The Soup Nazi]

Blades are so depressing. These days most swords are cheap Lord of the Rings or other nerd-book recreations that really can't stand up to blade to blade combat rather than being made out of proper pattern welding from a skilled bladesmith. I would definately try to get a PROPER sword or katana these days, but unfortunately not only are they expensive, but its almost impossible finding a skilled blade smith without running into a VERY LONG waiting list since the skill isn't wide spread and obviously with only so many smiths, you can make only so many blades.

[paradox]

I am well aware that carrying a sword in California is unlawful...

You are wrong about that. Check California Penal Code §12020. So long as you don't conceal the sword on your person some place other than hanging from a belt, you can carry around your katana to your heart’s content. Whatever you do, just make damn sure it doesn’t look like a cane or staff, then you’ll be as evil as all those who bring 30 rounders back from Nevada.

[kilword]

i walk around with one on my back every day.. but then again i do have the true ultimate power....

[thekwyjibo]

You can get a number of good Katanas out there. For a medium quality combat quality,which means laminated (aka pattern welded/folded steel) and properly sharpened, you can get Paul Chen (I own a Katana/Wakizashi set) products. These are Chinese made but good all around quality. Price range is around $400-900 for a single sword.
The high end Japanese stuff is generally a great deal more expensive (there are major laws in Japan for the manufacture of a sharpened sword that date back to the US occupation), unless you get some of the gunto stuff, pre-ww2 and ww2 era, some are worth money most are not.

[GTKrockeTT]

you should see my collection of hitori hanzo swords.

[luvtolean]

"You sold a Hanzo sword? It's priceless."

"Not in El Paso it ain't."

[The Soup Nazi]

Yeah, the Japanese actually regulate licenses where you need to pass a test and usually most people can only obtain the license after at least 10 years of apprenticeship. But at least you know you're getting a real high end blade. Japan needs to churn out more samurai to create a greater demand for bladesmiths. :D

[Charliegone]

http://swordstore.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/02nav/00how-main.html

Found this place...seems like these are authentic made in Japan swords. If you do happen to find an "authentic" japanese sword on ebay from someone selling in China somewhere...most likely its a fake made to look like one.:mad:

[Styles]

These guy's have very high quality swords.

http://www.bugei.com/

[EBWhite]

Blades are so depressing. These days most swords are cheap....I would definately try to get a PROPER sword or katana these days, but unfortunately not only are they expensive.

An old wise man once told me you get what you pay for. If people had pride and were not cheapskates, there would be no market for cheap swords. On a lighter note, if people still had pride- there would not be a lack of quality bladesmiths- thus no waiting lists. :rolleyes:

[rips31]

+1 on the bugei. they have some quality stuff. that swordstone place looks pretty interesting, altho most of their cheaper stuff isn't 'sword steel' but zn-al.

[Scope]

Guys I know this isn't gun related but it is weapon related and frankly I just didn't know where else to ask. I am well aware that carrying a sword in California is unlawful but is it lawful to have a real sword (not decorative) in your collection at home? Furthermore would it be lawful to sell this sword to another collector?

You can buy them at the mall, so I hope they are legal :)

It is legal in most areas to carry a sword as long as it is openly displayed. By "most areas" I mean "not major cities like San Francisco or L.A.". For such places it is important to check local laws to see what is permissible. I have a battle-ready (i.e. "real") sword that I have carried openly around the San Jose/Gilroy area, and nobodies ever had a problem with it, although I did get a few weird looks when I was walking around San Fran with an empty scabbard.

Here is a link to an overview of CA laws.

http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html

[M. Sage]

Folding (laminated steel) isn't necessary with good-quality steel, and might even be detrimental to the quality of the steel. The more time the steel spends red-hot, the more carbon burns out and the more the steel becomes iron again.

[azn_wrx]

Most of those "Japanese" style swords that have "papers" and are $300-500 at the gun shows or anywhere else are crap if you are looking for a collectible. Some of those really rare ones are worth ten's of thousands of dollars. A family friend we know in Japan has a few real authentic ones from the Meiji era that are priceless to their family because they were passed down. I guess they were appraised for rediculous amounts of money.

Too bad my family doesnt have any more. I guess they sold them so they could get funds to immigrate here to America.

Like eb said you get what you pay for.

[Satex]

Speaking of Oriental fighting arts, don't you guys think that all Oriental Martial arts should be banned in California? It scares me to think that while I walk down the street, there could be dozens of concealed ninjas around me!

I think if you know any marital arts, you should be registered as an assault ninja with the DOJ and you should only be allowed to walk in public with hand and foot shackles.
:eek:

[Kestryll]

M.Sage has the right of it. Japanese swords were made with differing metals not due to a super-advanced design but because of a lack of quality metals.
When you lack large quantities of quality steel you use primarily lesser steel for the body of the sword and inset a smaller piece of good steel as the blade.
As much as people revere the katana as a great sword there are several European swords that rival it's complexity.
Look at a well made Danish sword, the steel was twisted in strands to be like a cable then forge welded back onto itself before being shaped, tempered, balanced and sharpened. And in most cases the European swords were made entirely out of higher quality steel thus removing the need for lamination.

As to the question of legality I can add that yes, ownership is legal in California. In fact below is my Home Defense kit. The sword is a high quality spring steel hand forged by Jaeger and balanced 3 and 1/2 inches from the crossguard. This makes for a sword that can flex roughly 35 degrees out of line and return to true and has a very manueverable tip.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/441291.jpg

[Blacktail 8541]

Nice sword and shotgun, but where is your long range weapon?

[luvtolean]

Jeez, I think that sword would scare me more than the scattergun.

I don't know jack about swords, but that sure looks cool.

[Kestryll]

Nice sword and shotgun, but where is your long range weapon?

Stevens Model 200 .308
http://www.hunt101.com/img/396242.JPG

Mosin M44 Scout
http://www.hunt101.com/img/414449.jpg

[bu-bye]

I know a guy who has a very nice and real Samurai sword set that he ordered from a well known japanese sword maker. It cost him around $10,000 for both short and long sword (sorry don't know the real name) and took over a year before it was shipped to the states. It was the sharpest thing I have every felt. I'm a big knife fan and keep my knives sharp enough to shave but this sword was just crazy sharp. I was even scared to hold it. He showed me a cheap knock off ($200 sword) to compair and you really can see and feel the dif.

[hoffmang]

As to the comment about open sword carry in SF - can you point me to that reg? I have a very good friend who open carries from his home near Delores Park to an area near the financial district about twice a week. He practices a Japanese blade based martial art. He is under the impression that open carry is perfectly legal.

-Gene

[azn_wrx]

I know a guy who has a very nice and real Samurai sward set that he ordered from a well known japanese sward maker. It cost him around $10,000 for both short and long sward (sorry don't know the real name) and took over a year before it was shipped to the states. It was the sharpest thing I have every felt. I'm a big knife fan and keep my knives sharp enough to shave but this sward was just crazy sharp. I was even scared to hold it. He showed me a cheap knock off ($200 sward) to compair and you really can see and feel the dif.

I also have to agree with that. The read deals are one of the sharpest I have ever handled

[FatKatMatt]

They are perfectly legal, just make sure you get a really good quality one if you want a sword.

[xenophobe]

Some of those really rare ones are worth ten's of thousands of dollars.

Really old swords, and those that come from notable Japanese families can be worth HUNDREDS of thousands. After WWII, many of those families will pay whatever it takes to get their family swords back, and that has helped drive the market to insane prices.

We had a cut down tachi at the store... it was dated from about 1400... It sold for $1500. If it had not been cut down, and if it was from a famous sword maker of the period, it could have been easily 6 figure numbers in the condition it was in.

[NeoWeird]

I was under the impression that true samurai swords were made with two metals, one soft and one hard. They were folded to create layers that would allow the hardened steel to be exposed at the edge taking a razor edge but the soft metal around it would allow for a more flexible blade that wouldn't be brittle.

Also, I've always been a fan of Damascus in spite of it's less than desirable qualities. Something about the beauty and time that went into it that just makes it so much more pleasing to the eye.

Two places that may be on interest:

www.museumreplicas.com

While Museum Replicas usually specializes in european weapons (my favorite) they will carry a small selection of Japanese style swords, particularly of the Paul Chen variety. For the most part they carry TRUE blades that are battle quality and could easily be used as such, not a piece of poured crap that looks like a blade.

www.***anarms.com/

***an Arms is an antique dealer that deals with weapons and armor. I've never personally ordered from them but I have called in twice on two different items. Both times they were sold. They get some nice interesting things from time to time but they don't seem to update as often as you would expect.

[Charliegone]

I love the Roman Gladius! Its truly a beautiful and functional weapon. I also like the "templar" sword used during the middle ages.

[Kestryll]

I was under the impression that true samurai swords were made with two metals, one soft and one hard. They were folded to create layers that would allow the hardened steel to be exposed at the edge taking a razor edge but the soft metal around it would allow for a more flexible blade that wouldn't be brittle.


Often there was two different metals used but the difference was not hardness but quality. Some used a thin piece of good steel forge welded inside a 'U' shaped piece of lesser steel. Others set a strip of good steel into a body of lesser steel. The 'folded katana' is more legend than fact. I seem to recall reading that after 12 to 15 'folds' you hit a point of diminishing returns. you stop making a laminate and now have an alloy. 12 folds of just two pieces would result in a laminate 4096 layers thick. unless you are measuring layers in microns the blade would be too thick!

The differing hardness, called differential tempering, was not from hard vs. soft steel but how the blade was tempered. The blade was heated to a specific temperature, determined by the color of the metal, and then air cooled to creat a softer temper. Flexible, as metals go, but lousy for holding an edge. Then a specific type of heat resistant clay was used to encase the rear of the blade exposing only the edge. The blade was once more heated to a different color/temperature, knowing what color meant what temperature and how hard that would make a blade was part of what made one a Master swordsmith. Once the blade was the right color/temperature it was quenched caly and all in a solution of water, oil and other liquids depending on that smith's formula. The clay allowed the edge to reach a higher temperature than the rest of the blade making for a harder temper. Brittle but excellent for holding an edge. The distinctive 'wavy line', called a hamon, denotes where the clay ended and marks the different tempered areas.
I have read but am not sure it is accurate that the differential tempering causes the blade to contract at different rates giving the Katana it's signature curve. The katana is an excellent example of the swordmakers craft but the forging is only part of it's story. The art of sharpening is just as impressive.

[Kestryll]

I love the Roman Gladius! Its truly a beautiful and functional weapon. I also like the "templar" sword used during the middle ages.

The Gladius, Rome conquered the known world and expanded it's boundies many times over with an 18 inch blade. Functional indeed.

[NeoWeird]

Gladius?

http://www.museumreplicas.com/imagelib/0500360_L_000.jpg

Still, this is damn sexy

http://www.museumreplicas.com/imagelib/0500262_L_000.jpg

[phish]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087011798X/nextag-books06-20/ref=nosim

I have this book and it's very informative. You'll quickly realize why swords made in the traditional way cost as much as they do. If I remember correctly, the swordsmith covered in the book was declared a living national treasure.

[rips31]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087011798X/nextag-books06-20/ref=nosim

I have this book and it's very informative. You'll quickly realize why swords made in the traditional way cost as much as they do. If I remember correctly, the swordsmith covered in the book was declared a living national treasure.
i've got both of those books. they're excellent reads.

[rkt88edmo]

As to the comment about open sword carry in SF - can you point me to that reg? I have a very good friend who open carries from his home near Delores Park to an area near the financial district about twice a week. He practices a Japanese blade based martial art. He is under the impression that open carry is perfectly legal.

-Gene

They can't point you to a reg that doesn't exist.

Open carry of fixed blades is legal, concealed fixed blades are not.

Enough info and reviews can be had to read til your eyes bleed at http://swordforum.com/

[azn_wrx]

Really old swords, and those that come from notable Japanese families can be worth HUNDREDS of thousands.

thanks for the correction. I was running on 2 hrs of sleep yeterday. I wasn't thinking too clearly.

[chickenfried]

I just realized a fixture of the Cow Palace gun show wasn't there this time. The San Francisco Sword Society. I always go by to oggle, and the main guy always gives me the stink eye for some reason :confused: .

[rkt88edmo]

I just realized a fixture of the Cow Palace gun show wasn't there this time. The San Francisco Sword Society. I always go by to oggle, and the main guy always gives me the stink eye for some reason :confused: .

You must not be worthy or have some kind of stinky aura :p

[hoffmang]

rkt88edmo,

I had kinda assumed that open carry was legal. Since the only reason open carry of firearms is illegal is the Black Panthers March and not the Samurai Association or some such...

-Gene

[Scope]

As to the comment about open sword carry in SF - can you point me to that reg? I have a very good friend who open carries from his home near Delores Park to an area near the financial district about twice a week. He practices a Japanese blade based martial art. He is under the impression that open carry is perfectly legal.

-Gene

On the site of the CA knife laws overview he states "San Francisco has an ordinance on knife carry, but it's only linked to simultaneous 'illegal loitering' ". I do not know of the specific reg, but I don't live there and rarely travel there. A quick internet search did not reveal anything, so maybe I'm just operating under a wrong impression.

[azn_wrx]

Open carry of fixed blades is legal, concealed fixed blades are not.

He said its legal

[icormba]

I have a few Angus Trim swords... Medieval style :) .
Very Light... VERY SHARP... and they cut extremely well! :)

I should take and post some snap shots of them one of these days.

WWW.ANGUSTRIMDIRECT.COM

[paradox]

Just so everyone is clear, here are the statewide rules for fixed blades and concealment thereof.

(a) ... (4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
...
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
...
(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from
the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this
section.


So under California law, it is illegal to have a sharp stick in your pocket, but it is 100% legal to hide a katana hanging from your belt behind a trench coat. Though I have to say that things which are legal may or may not be the same as that which will not get you hassled by the authoritah.