FCI: Gun show 'Stings' Continue In California and Neighboring States [Archive]

mikehaas

10-11-2006, 11:36 AM

http://fiftycal.org/alerts/061011/
October 11, 2006
Fifty Caliber Institute
Email Alert

Gun show 'Stings' Continue In California and Neighboring States

FCI has been made aware that federal, state and local law enforcement officers are continuing stepped up efforts to enforce firearms laws, particularly at gun shows in California and bordering states. The California Department of Justice Firearms Division, county and local law enforcement officials (particularly LAPD Gun Unit) and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) all attend gun shows throughout California and neighboring states. There are uniformed officers present, as well as civilian informants and undercover plain clothes officers whose job is to conduct 'stings 'typically by enticing gun buyers or sellers to forego the legal requirements that gun sales be processed through a licensed gun dealer. Often guns are offered at "too good to believe" prices in order to entice the offer.

Police are monitoring Shotgun News, Gun List and other trade magazines for sales of firearms and even run ads themselves to sting unwitting participants. State police will follow cars with California plates back from the gun shows across state lines and arrest the occupants for importing "assault weapons" or "high capacity" magazines.

FCI wants to make everyone aware of these circumstances to ensure our readers are not engaging in the activities described so as to put themselves in a position of being arrested and having your entire firearms collection confiscated. As all of you are aware, two members of the Fifty Caliber Shooters Assn. have had search warrants served on their residences and charges filed against them. Other gun rights organizations reading this information need to pass it on to their own members.

Law Enforcement officials in California are taking very seriously any violations of the laws they have been passing for these many years restricting your lawful right to own firearms. They have joined forces and pooled their resources to aggressively target gun owners. We are here to make you aware of it and to encourage everyone to again BECOME FAMILIAR WITH YOUR LEGAL RESPONSIBILITIES AS GUN OWNERS and not become involved in any transaction that might lead to your arrest.

Please refer to this .pdf document (http://fiftycal.org/alerts/061011/CGLGunShowLtrs.PDF) from www.calgunlaws.com This document is directed at Gun Show regulators and is aimed at making them aware of the current situation. Please open the document and become familiar with it.

FCI would also like to remind everyone that if you are not familiar with the restrictions of the California Assault Weapons Ban, you can find the entire document on our web site at www.fiftycal.org

We will keep you advised as we become aware of more information.

John Burtt, Chmn
FCI
------------------------------
Mike
webmaster, FCI
http://fiftycal.org/aboutmhaas.php

MikeK

10-11-2006, 11:42 AM

Although I appreciate the info, isn't this basically warning would-be criminals to not get caught?

You know, the people that make law abiding gun enthusiasts look bad?

tenpercentfirearms

10-11-2006, 12:02 PM

I never understood why I would go to all the trouble to get my FFL and all the bullcrap that goes along with it just to get put in jail over a $50 profit on a handgun or assault weapon or whatever.

People get all paranoid at gun shows and start rumors that you are going to get busted or that the DOJ is after you. I have a solution, don't do anything wrong! That is right. If you don't offer machine guns for sale, it is hard for them to bust you on it. Sure they took some of my lowers and claimed they were machine guns, but did they arrest me? Harassment is just confirmation that there isn't a darn thing they can do about it. So let them harass gun owners or sellers at gun shows. When someone comes up and asks you to do something illegal, say, "No thank you." It really is that simple.

luvtolean

10-11-2006, 12:08 PM

Well, part of this is also for gun owners going to NV to buy standard or high caps and then getting caught bringing them back.

MikeK

10-11-2006, 12:11 PM

Well, part of this is also for gun owners going to NV to buy standard or high caps and then getting caught bringing them back.
Like I said. Criminals.

PanzerAce

10-11-2006, 12:12 PM

ah yes, our tax dollars at work. After all, its not like there are any real criminals that they could be going after *rolls eyes*

luvtolean

10-11-2006, 12:17 PM

Like I said. Criminals.

Yep, very much so.

I think this is a poor way of spending LE dollars in regards to benefits to reducing violent crimes committed with guns, but I won't be shedding any tears for those caught doing any of this stuff.

762cavalier

10-11-2006, 01:03 PM

I agree that you should not break the law and taht people doing so get what they deserve this part of the warning disturbs me
State police will follow cars with California plates back from the gun shows across state lines and arrest the occupants for importing "assault weapons" or "high capacity" magazines
On what authority would the state police have to stop you. Is it now illegal to attend a gun show or firearms store in a different state.They have to have some reason beforehand to pull you over. I don't think "well he was at a gunshow so we were just checking" is a valid reason and sounds like more police harrassment.Are they going to do the old well you have a broken taillight so we are going to search your car routine- last time I checked that was illegal unless you consent to the search. sounds a lot like big brother is watching you.:mad:

grammaton76

10-11-2006, 01:10 PM

MikeK

10-11-2006, 01:12 PM

And anyone who thinks Californians don't look different from anyone else, clearly has not been to the rest of the country.
lol

aklgfsad

mikehaas

10-11-2006, 01:12 PM

Like I said. Criminals.
A lot of our fellow innocent gun-owners get caught up in California's BS laws. What do you expect when the DOJ sluffs off their responsibility and picks and chooses when to simplify laws and direct how the state's 58 local DA's behave?

Just ask any RKBA attorney, most of whom, I understand, charge a $5K retainer to start handling your case so you can clear your name and, if it goes that far, get your gun rights back.

Mike

bwiese

10-11-2006, 01:13 PM

On what authority would the state police have to stop you. Is it now illegal to attend a gun show or firearms store in a different state.They have to have some reason beforehand to pull you over. I don't think "well he was at a gunshow so we were just checking" is a valid reason

There have been several arrests from folks going to Reno show(s). I don't have all the details but it appears some folks were spotted buying hicaps and didn't store them in Reno.

Another Intellectual Giant forgot or refused to reg his AW; he later decided to sell it at the Reno show. Apparently he didn't get a buyer, so he decides to take it back to CA. He was popped across the border and I believe felony possession, transportation and importation charges were filed. I do not know the outcome of this case, but I do know this is 'approximately correct'.

Of course, you should never let a cop search anywhere even though you are completely legal. Make the b*stard work for it. If he says "Can I search for my own safety?", refuse, and assert your 4th Amendment rights. If he says, "I can get a warrant", tell him "You woulda had one already if you could...".

Never interfere with a search, but do verbally protest if one is forced upon you - don't set up a situation where you could be perceived as acquiescing to it.

anotherone

10-11-2006, 01:18 PM

There have been several arrests from folks going to Reno show(s). I don't have all the details but it appears some folks were spotted buying hicaps and didn't store them in Reno.

Either that or they forgot to disassemble them and only take the parts that they needed to repair their pre-ban hicaps.

Guitarnut

10-11-2006, 03:02 PM

Sure they took some of my lowers and claimed they were machine guns, but did they arrest me?

Who took you lowers and when?????

joe_sun

10-11-2006, 03:21 PM

It bothers me when gun owners condemn their brethren for purchasing a standard capacity magazine or for an "assault weapons" violation. Yes they may have broken California law.. but what you’re failing to understand is that it SHOULD NOT be law.

The legislature has in clear violation of the second amendment criminalized a non criminal product and made a true victimless crime and you folks have signed on lock stock and barrel!

Does it not bother you that what someone can do in Nevada, Texas, New Mexico or just about any other state in the union is a FELONY in California?

Now I’m not saying go out and break laws, but for Pete’s sake! Understand that the person that gets busted really did nothing morally or ethically wrong for doing something that should be protected as a constitutional right and that’s just wrong.

bwiese

10-11-2006, 03:23 PM

Who took you lowers and when?????

Back in December 05 Wes had some Superior Arms lowers. They had a 3rd position 'fun mark' engraved on the receiver around the safety selector lever, but were physically incapable of accepting M16 full auto firecontrol parts. Igggy (and I believe, Dana was with him) seized them even though they knew they were legal. Wes was of course not arrested.

Even though clearly enough time has been spent to determine that these lowers were indeed regular semiauto lowers and that other markings were clearly for decorative purposes only. (Kinda like if Ruger emblazoned 'nuclear weapon' on its next shotgun - would that be seized by the IAEA?)

Wes' personal property apparently continues to remains stolen under color of authority, much like the lowers for the Milpitas group buy.

EBWhite

10-11-2006, 03:23 PM

You can buy standard cap mags out of state- legally. Just when you bring them back, make sure they are taken apart, and never use them for anything but parts. Don't create a mag...

Wes will never see those again, as with the people in the group buy. They are gone for good. JMO

MikeK

10-11-2006, 04:28 PM

Now I’m not saying go out and break laws, but for Pete’s sake! Understand that the person that gets busted really did nothing morally or ethically wrong for doing something that should be protected as a constitutional right and that’s just wrong.
So people should just ignore laws they don't agree with?

So much for a civilized society.

There was a time when actions like this were necessary because people didn't have a standing to change the law.

But we have the ability to change any law we see fit to change.

Not doing it the right way is just lazy, and the people who decide the law doesn't matter are criminals.

madjack956

10-11-2006, 04:36 PM

EBWhite

10-11-2006, 04:42 PM

MikeK

10-11-2006, 04:45 PM

Yes, if they are willing to deal with the possible consequences then there is nothing wrong with breaking an unconstitutional law. Now, hurting others is wrong- buying something so stupid as a magazine (a law that does not follow the constitution) does not hurt anyone!
I don't remember that part of the constitution that allows you to own hi-cap mags. You could refresh my memory on that.

And sure. It's a stupid law. But breaking it makes us all look bad. Is that what you want?

joe_sun

10-11-2006, 05:01 PM

So people should just ignore laws they don't agree with?

So much for a civilized society.

There was a time when actions like this were necessary because people didn't have a standing to change the law.

But we have the ability to change any law we see fit to change.

Not doing it the right way is just lazy, and the people who decide the law doesn't matter are criminals.

I agree that we, in theory, have the ability to change the law by voting in like minded representatives. This is a Republic after all and this is what I’m hoping we accomplish!. I say in theory because we all know the debacle that is the districting but I won’t go there.

In regards to your statement where in essence you state that the law is absolute. To what extent are you willing to take that? Any law that’s passed must be abided to the letter regardless? Where do we draw the line?

Look all I’m saying is because someone does something that’s only illegal in the State of California fellow gun owners should not be crucifying them. We should work even harder to change the laws and support them.

joe_sun

10-11-2006, 05:04 PM

I don't remember that part of the constitution that allows you to own hi-cap mags. You could refresh my memory on that.

And sure. It's a stupid law. But breaking it makes us all look bad. Is that what you want?

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

And I want the law changed, not people put in jail and branded as fellons with with peers throwing stones.

grammaton76

10-11-2006, 05:04 PM

Look all I’m saying is because someone does something that’s only illegal in the State of California fellow gun owners should not be crucifying them. We should work even harder to change the laws and support them.

I would say we should work hard to change the laws, but not make any issue of supporting them. I personally just neither support or condemn folks breaking laws that I view as stupid.

Blacktail 8541

10-11-2006, 05:04 PM

So people should just ignore laws they don't agree with?

So much for a civilized society.

There was a time when actions like this were necessary because people didn't have a standing to change the law.

But we have the ability to change any law we see fit to change.

Not doing it the right way is just lazy, and the people who decide the law doesn't matter are criminals.

Since when do we have the ability to just get the law changed?
If this were possible as easlily as you make it sound, we would already have the assualt weapons ban overturned! A lot of laws are passed that the legislature just does not give a rats a** about our opinion! Weather we are in the majoity or the minority. They have an agenda, and they are going to do it ,if we like it or not, as we don't know whats best for us!

EBWhite

10-11-2006, 05:13 PM

I don't remember that part of the constitution that allows you to own hi-cap mags. You could refresh my memory on that.

And sure. It's a stupid law. But breaking it makes us all look bad. Is that what you want?

First, they are standard cap mags- not hi-cap....

Second, It is called the right to bear arms in the bill of rights. An AK-47 comes with a 30rd magazine. To correctly bear that arm, we will need that standard cap mag, not a 10rd.

Ford8N

10-11-2006, 05:13 PM

[/B]

Since when do we have the ability to just get the law changed?
If this were possible as easlily as you make it sound, we would already have the assualt weapons ban overturned! A lot of laws are passed that the legislature just does not give a rats a** about our opinion! Weather we are in the majoity or the minority. They have an agenda, and they are going to do it ,if we like it or not, as we don't know whats best for us!

Exactly!

We gun owners are just serfs in the eye's of the rulers. Something that must be controlled.

MrLogan

10-11-2006, 05:15 PM

madjack956

10-11-2006, 05:17 PM

Richie Rich

10-11-2006, 05:45 PM

Can anyone else think of something that is legal and unregulated in one state and a FELONY in another??

Stupid law.....

What if one of my california low capacity magazines somehow wears down or malfunctions and allows someone to insert an extra round or two? I would never know, since I don't try to overfill them.

Now what if I get stopped on the way home from an out of state shoot and the friendly neighborhood LEO in Ca finds me with weapons that he thinks are unregistered AWs (even tho they are legally built OLLs). They take me and my guns downtown for a closer look. They decide to check all of the mags that I have (in an attempt to find something illegal) and they find that one of them can have an 11th round crammed into it.

BINGO, I lose my guns, pay thousands in lawyers fees defending myself and if I am convicted I get to go to JAIL. Ruins my life, my future and I am stripped of my 2A rights FOR LIFE......

And this is a fair and just law how????

xrMike

10-11-2006, 06:08 PM

Can anyone else think of something that is legal and unregulated in one state and a FELONY in another??

Stupid law.....What I don't understand is why someone would even bother to travel to another state to break the law buying a std. cap. mag, when they could accomplish the same thing safely, in the comfort of their own home, courtesy of the USPS.

bwiese

10-11-2006, 06:32 PM

For you doubters, I think you should believe what FCSA is writing.

Calguns user '50_Shooter' personally knows some of the AW bust parties.

And Jason Davis is on the board of FCI: he's a noted CA gun attorney with Trutanich-Michel, frequently interfaces w/DOJ personnel in & out of court, etc. He's gonna be hearing a lot of the gory details...

This warning was not just paranoia but is based in fact.

mow

10-11-2006, 06:35 PM

Keep It Simple Stupid.

KISS

when asked by LEO to search state "I am sorry officer but I don't consent to searches"

Do not physically block/touch LEO, if they decide to search after you have told them not to, you will need a lawyer if 'contraband' is found.

"I do not consent to searches"
"May I speak with my attorney?" and
"Yes the address information on my CDL is correct"

These are the only three things you should say to requests for searches and subsequent searches against your will (that is searches against your will and without probable cause) (also refusing a search is not probable cause)

Dont Tread on Me

10-11-2006, 07:33 PM

Can anyone else think of something that is legal and unregulated in one state and a FELONY in another??

There are many "private" acts that are legal in one state an illegal in another...

It is one of the things I enjoy most about traveling. In England having a gun is a minimum of five years in jail. Here I can have as many as I like providing they don't have pistol grips. Pop up to Oregon and automatic knives are fine and its easy to get a ccw. Strange what a line on the map can do.

Thanks to Mike H for starting this thread. I hope it stops a few folks from doing something stupid and paying a terrible price.

M. Sage

10-11-2006, 07:37 PM

These are the only three things you should say to requests for searches and subsequent searches against your will (that is searches against your will and without probable cause) (also refusing a search is not probable cause)

If they have probable cause, they probably won't be asking you... Objecting could work in your favor later if you wind up in court, though.

jmlivingston

10-11-2006, 07:57 PM

Does it not bother you that what someone can do in Nevada, Texas, New Mexico or just about any other state in the union is a FELONY in California?

I really struggle with comments like this because we're really 50 autonomous nations operating under and within an umbrella of our Federal government as created by our Constitution. I expect each state to have different laws, that's a necessary and vital component within the concept of States Rights. The other option is to really abolish our state governments and live only within Federal law. Of course we really exist somewhere in the middle, especially in our post-civil-war era...

That said, I do believe that current California law has significantly exceeded their authority considering the individual rights granted under the 2nd Amendment of our Constitution.

John

Pvt. Cowboy

10-11-2006, 08:08 PM

Do they have links to specific, verified cases of this happening...including times/dates/agencies involved/victim names? Who is the source of this information? Who made FCI 'aware'? Pictures of the 'state police' vehicles that 'follow' show attendees would be really nice.

Same old unsubstantiated paranoia...only this time in newsletter form.

I think that I will finally register here on Calguns.net and speak up for the first time in support of your post.

What worries me about gunowners is that all it takes is one unsubstantiated post to do the CA-DOJ's work of making gun owners incessantly paranoid.

Since this is the second time in as many months where the FCI has sounded the alarm on the DOJ's alleged spying and seizure of out of state travellers, I think that the honor is on the FCI to provide specific details of the incidents considering that these alleged actions have been taken against their members. I would like to see a docket number, police report, receipt for confiscated items, dates, names, and places. Anything at all that would substantiate the claims made by FCI would do.

I've been a voluntarily registered owner of several assault weapons since the first CA ban, also registering more in the second ban, and since that time I've been witness to all sorts of unlikely claims on behalf of paranoiac gun activists. I've been told that I'm in a special database available to all California peace officers who encounter me (or simply arrive in the vicinity of my neighborhood for any reason) warning them that I'm armed with an assault weapon and should be treated with extreme caution. I've been told that every AWB registrant has had their employment record under surveillance as well as their personnel department being told of their registration in the AWB database. I've been assured that the CA-DOJ is going right down the list of registrants either performing 'No-Knock' raids or unannounced visits to ensure that the registrants property list is in order. Oh? I hadn't been raided yet? Well, I will be. In just about all cases where I expressed my skepticism, it didn't take them but another two or three breaths before the ghostly apparition of the spectral Third Reich and the Jews who willingly registered themselves as aliens surfaced in their later statements. Every paranoiac argument eventually leads to 1933 Munich, after all.

What has been true so far is that I've shown my registered weapons to numerous police, some of whom weren't particularly friendly upon meeting me. I've never been asked to show my registration papers that I carry copies of everywhere I transport my guns. Sheriffs and rangers have encountered me on BLM land numerous times and never asked for papers. I've carried my guns out of state and back several times on airline flights, demonstrating that they're unloaded and disassembled in front of airline counter clerks, hundreds of onlooking passengers, and airport police on duty. No law enforcement officer has said a blessed thing except 'Man, that's awesome. Is that an AUG?'. I've carried hi-cap magazines in my *carry-on* luggage on post-9/11 airline flights. I've picked up my Hk-91 in an obvious gun case at the irregular packages counter at San Francisco International airport (SF is my hometown) and opened the case in full view of everyone nearby to ensure that the gun was not damaged in travel. No-one has ever made a squeak even in a public place.

Let me continue: I have a friend who's a policeman in Riverside CA. I asked him about an alleged secret database of assault rifle owners. He said 'What? Of course not. I can barely get an accurate answer in orderly fashion on whether some perp sitting on the curb at my feet is a parolee or not'. That matches well with another San Jose Sheriff's Deputy pal of mine who is a confirmed gun nut assuring me that there is no instruction his department has on assault weapon models, serials, hi-cap mags, flash hiders, barrel lengths or whatever the hell else. Not in his ten years of duty has he heard a thing. His fellows know 'sawed-off shotguns and nunchucks are illegal' and that's about all they care about. Well, that and gangbangers can't be in possession of any item thought to be the slightest bit hostile in appearance. However, I confess that I have actually seen a silhouette booklet that a gun store owner I knew received from a Culver City CA police captain. It was not of CCPD's own creation, instead being provided to the police by the Violence Policy Law Center as an aid in identifying banned CA assault weapons by profile. He said it was about as welcome as free brussel sprouts and all copies eventually made it into the trash with the exception of the one I saw with my own eyes at the gun shop I frequented. It was a hastily-Xeroxed piece of trash. No-one cared. The simple rule is that if you're committing a felony and just happen to have guns with you when breaking the law, THAT'S when you've got a problem.

I'm not the only one wondering about the FCI's claims. I thought that there was someone else asking the FCI for more information the first time they made a claim and the conclusion was that there was no evidence showing that any type of seizure or arrest was confirmed. Also, several gun enthusiasts serving as LA County Sheriff's deputies posting on other gun boards have said that a 'Gun Task Force' in collusion with the BATFE is not known to exist at any level they're aware of, and they've been asking since FCI's first public claim.

If the FCI can support their claims with evidence, I call on them to produce it.

I am not advising anyone here to be complacent... Just skeptically inquisitive until you see more evidence than just someone's secondhand say-so.

Pryde

10-11-2006, 09:16 PM

I think that I will finally register here on Calguns.net and speak up for the first time in support of your post.

I'm not the only one wondering about the FCI's claims. I thought that there was someone else asking the FCI for more information the first time they made a claim and the conclusion was that there was no evidence showing that any type of seizure or arrest was confirmed. Also, several gun enthusiasts serving as LA County Sheriff's deputies posting on other gun boards have said that a 'Gun Task Force' in collusion with the BATFE is not known to exist at any level they're aware of, and they've been asking since FCI's first public claim.

If the FCI can support their claims with evidence, I call on them to produce it.

I am not advising anyone here to be complacent... Just skeptically inquisitive until you see more evidence than just someone's secondhand say-so.

Three cheers for common sense!

xenophobe

10-11-2006, 09:29 PM

Ignorance is bliss...

PIRATE14

10-11-2006, 09:48 PM

Is there a AWR date base...you betcha.

Can the LEO call it up on request...you betcha.

DOJ has been known to troll the Nevada shows...in what capacity who knows but they are there.

Does the ATF beat up dealers w/ warnings about selling to CA residents...you betcha.

Do I need proof that there is these xborder stings in effect.....no, sounds logical too me.

Look at that AMMO buying paper....a lot of things go on that you don't know about.

Wise men would play it smart.........

MikeK

10-11-2006, 10:03 PM

[/B]If this were possible as easlily as you make it sound, we would already have the assualt weapons ban overturned!
Who said it was easy?

Do you really want it to be easy to change laws?

*shakes head*

MikeK

10-11-2006, 10:17 PM

Mike, with all due respect, this is a good warning to those who might be trying to bend the law not to. With all the cockamamie gun laws in this state, any information on the laws and how to obey them should be considered valuable to gun owners.

As others have pointed out on this board, many people have been made FELONS because of crazy CA laws that they are not aware of. Not every gun owner reads the internet gun boards and they may be in possession of bad info. Threads like this help educate.

Of course, we must follow the law because it is the law, but I don't understand your enthusiasm to label them criminals.

At one time it was a crime to help a slave escape to freedom...were those people criminals?

The law isn't always right, and some will break it. The thread was started as a warning to let those who are considering breaking it to not break it. Simple as that.

I think a lot of us also find it frustrating that the DOJ is using their power to go after something that many of us would not consider a dangerous act while billions of dollars of illegal pot are grown in our national forests by illegal aliens who come across our border unchecked my the hundreds of thousands, or (insert pet cause here...) just because they want to crack down on the right to keep and bear arms by average joe upstanding citizens.

All arguments aside though, we need to follow the law.

You're right. The law sucks. And as you also say, the law is the law, and we're stuck with it until we change it.

Why label them as criminals? Because they make us all (and by us I mean gun enthusiasts) look bad.

"Another AW bust" or "Arrested importing illegal AW parts". Is this who we want to call our bretheren? People who scoff at the law, however bad it is, and at the same time turn more people against us?

Sorry. I just don't get it.

Yes. Some laws are stupid. Some laws are even unconstitutional (although to believe the hi-cap mag law to be unconstitutional is a bit delusional). But it's not our call. We have to fight within the law, because we have the ability to fight within the law.

Without laws, well, no one wants that.

M. Sage

10-11-2006, 10:28 PM

Yes. Some laws are stupid. Some laws are even unconstitutional (although to believe the hi-cap mag law to be unconstitutional is a bit delusional). But it's not our call. We have to fight within the law, because we have the ability to fight within the law.

Without laws, well, no one wants that.

Mandated low-capacity mags goes against the intent of the 2nd Amendment. Just like OLLs go against the intent of Roberti-Roos (hooray for that little win!). I don't see how that's delusional.

MrLogan

10-11-2006, 10:33 PM

If the FCI can support their claims with evidence, I call on them to produce it.

I am not advising anyone here to be complacent... Just skeptically inquisitive until you see more evidence than just someone's secondhand say-so.

As one of the newer members on this board, I do not doubt any of the more senior members. You've been here longer than I have, and know a heck of a lot more too. :D

But I'm inclined to agree with PVT Cowboy about supporting these claims. I have no doubt that these things occur, but if it is as common place as FCI is making it appear, I would think that it wouldn't be so difficult to reference a case or two. Can anyone provide any? :confused:

joe_sun

10-11-2006, 11:39 PM

Name them. Details, please. Specific details. Dates, times, parties involved, agent names, items confiscated, location, etc.

Otherwise, it's just more he said she said we said I heard from a buddy/friend/brother/sister/great uncle that.....blah blah blah all cops are pigs, blame Bush, Bilderbergers, DOJ, Igggy, Alllison, Loccckyer...and so on...and so on...and so on...

One solid bonafide real deal example is all I'm asking for - with corroborating details that can be checked. I've been asking for one for about 4 years now and so far, not one single specific example of the DOJ staking out Nevada gun shows, following California customers, taking them down at the side of the road at Checkpoint Charlie in Truckee. Nada. Nothing.

It's never more than, 'Hey, watch out. I heard the DOJ is staking out Nevada gun shows.'

I know for sure about the man who went to NV to sell his AR and then crossed back over. After his arrest his wife had the DOJ knock down the door to their house at around 2 in the morning and storm in with MP5's at the ready as if he were some terrorist. He's a felon now and lost his rights and his entire firearms collection.

I know someone who's been involved with the case pretty well and he's told me all about it but I can't remember the guys name.. and I'm not sure he'd want it posted here anway.

mikehaas

10-12-2006, 02:20 AM

Frankly, I don't understand any of the controversies within our ranks this seems to have sparked.

Calling our fellow gun-owners 'criminals' for simply having been caught up in the complex web of confusing California gun laws seems needlessly hostile and is certainly inaccurate. Even the law doesn't consider someone a criminal until convicted of a criminal violation - some accused are really innocent, y'know? I was "doing duty" at the recent "El Sobrante Stroll" (The main drag, San Pablo Dam Road, is shutdown for foot traffic - vendors, bands, booths, etc.) in our West Contra Costa NRA Members' Council (http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/haasmcshowwebpage.cgi?mc=westcoco) booth...
http://calnra.com/gfx/elsob090617.jpg
...I was approached by an older gent who was a decorated marine from Vietnam. He asked me about the AR15 he had bought decades ago - had heard something about California now considering it an "Assault Weapon". I explained briefly his situation and gave him the phone number for NRA's attorney's office. Naturally he was stunned to learn he may need a lawyer! Surely no one here wants to refer to this American as a "criminal" - this is a failing in the California legislative system, not on the decorated veteran's part. People should be able to expect that, if they never take the gun out of the closet, they should not need an attorney!

As far as providing specifics - docket numbers, names, addresses, SSN numbers, dna profiles - etc - remember these are ongoing cases - the accused may not want their specifics splattered all over the internet. And there can be other reasons to not expect that info to be made public, like the accused's attorney not wanting intererence from outside infuences? Public attention can cause a prosecutor to have a bad day. That may seem like a good thing, but I'd bet if YOU were the one facing charges it might look a bit differently

I would think John Burtt's carrer in law enforcement (including sniper duty), his creating FCI and chairing it full-time...
http://calgunlaws.com/images/fcilogo.gif (http://fiftycal.org/)
...his membership on the Board of NRA - these things would buy him some credibility. When it comes to the mentality of DOJ and his colleagues, he has an edge on most of us, who would disagree? I don't feel better knowing that people like John Burtt have retired and hope there are a couple cops hired since that, when put together, have half the dedication to individual rights that JB has.

IMO, John is simply warning us that law enforcement may have placed INCREASED ATTENTION to violations of gun laws. After seeing how this website has pissed off DOJ over the past year, it wouldn't surprise me on that basis alone. he is asking gun owners to protect themselves by making surte they are in compliance with the law, that small mistakes may not be overlooked as they have been in the past.

So I don't understand the controversies, unless something else is in play here that is not obvious.

Mike

xenophobe

10-12-2006, 03:11 AM

Don Kilmer confirmed that "******** stops" are indeed a reality and do happen. The SCCO DA Crime Lab has also confirmed this. I have heard from numerous vendors that DOJ is regularly seen at Nevada gun shows, and there are a couple of dealers HERE on Calguns that have seen him there.

I can understand the desire to want case #s and such, but as Mike pointed out, they're ongoing cases or cases that the defendant doesn't want notariety... If I were a defendant, I would be one of those people who wouldn't brag about it. As to those of you who keep demanding this is a pipe dream and it isn't happening, you have no credentials, and even if you do, they do not come close to the credentials of those that I have received confirmation from. Please explain how you are so special or deserving that you deserve such specific information? All I see is your tin foil hats...

Don't want to believe it? Good for you.

Crazed_SS

10-12-2006, 03:41 AM

I dont get this thread. Dont do illegal stuff and you wont get busted. Seems pretty simple to me. Just about everyone here knows it's illegal to go to NV and buy a 30rd mag. Anyone who wants to push their luck or try to dance around the law is risking their own skin. You guys know the DOJ us just waiting to bust people for this stuff.. why risk it?

Whitesmoke

10-12-2006, 04:36 AM

I agree that you should not break the law and taht people doing so get what they deserve this part of the warning disturbs me

On what authority would the state police have to stop you. Is it now illegal to attend a gun show or firearms store in a different state.They have to have some reason beforehand to pull you over. I don't think "well he was at a gunshow so we were just checking" is a valid reason and sounds like more police harrassment.Are they going to do the old well you have a broken taillight so we are going to search your car routine- last time I checked that was illegal unless you consent to the search. sounds a lot like big brother is watching you.:mad:

I have an example of what they will do....

I know a young man who went to Vegas with his friends recently (they are all early to mid 20's...AND IT WAS NOT ME...seriously..they consider me an old guy..lol). They went to that fireworks store outside of vegas and bought some fireworks (illegal in CA). One guy bought them all with a credit card. A few hours later they were coming up to Barstow and they get pulled over by some official car (but not a chp or regular cop car.....it said "something" enforcement). The officers are armed.....

They tell the kids that they were observed buying illegal fireworks and he knew the name of the buyer, etc and it wasn't his car they were in. They were all very suprised of course. The officer asked if he could search the car. The Kids politely said no. The officer started threatening them. He claimed that over a certain weight of fireworks (I think they said a lbs)was considered a felony. He stated that it could go two ways....they could allow him to confiscate the fireworks and the guy who paid for them all would get a ticket (and would have to show up to court and pay a fine).

Or...they would wait on the side of the road (I can't remember if they told me for a dog or a warrant or what) and they would search his vehicle anyways and he would be arrested for a Felony. Idle threat? I don't know....but it sure didn't sound like it. It sounded like they had quite the regular sting operation.

I'm sure they do something very similar for the gun shows. This all happened in june if I remember correctly. I'm not sure if the young man has been to court yet...I should ask what happened.

Crazed_SS

10-12-2006, 05:04 AM

In my experience with the automotive performance scene, when they ask if they can search the car, they often have enough probabable cause to search anyway. They just want to see if you're going to cooperate or not.

For example, a modified exhaust is not illegal, but gives the officer probable cause to pop your hood and inspect the engine for illegal modifications. Cops often ask "Can I inspect your engine" .. if you say yes, you'll get a ticket for the illegal parts (if you have any) .. if you say no, you'll be arrested and they'll search anyway and things will just get alot worse from there.

Dont buy 30rd mags in NV
Dont drive accross state lines to conduct firearms transactions
Dont transport unregistered assault weapons

Seems pretty simple to me..

EOD Guy

10-12-2006, 05:08 AM

I have an example of what they will do....

I know a young man who went to Vegas with his friends recently (they are all early to mid 20's...AND IT WAS NOT ME...seriously..they consider me an old guy..lol). They went to that fireworks store outside of vegas and bought some fireworks (illegal in CA). One guy bought them all with a credit card. A few hours later they were coming up to Barstow and they get pulled over by some official car (but not a chp or regular cop car.....it said "something" enforcement). The officers are armed.....

Not only do they watch for California residents buying fireworks in Nevada, they widely publicise that fact in order to discourage buyers.

Parumph is a favorite place to watch with the stops usually occuring just north of Baker

Whitesmoke

10-12-2006, 05:12 AM

Not only do they watch for California residents buying fireworks in Nevada, they widely publicise that fact in order to discourage buyers.

Parumph is a favorite place to watch with the stops usually occuring just north of Baker

yep...Parumph...thats where they said they bought them...I couldn't remember until you said that.

Whitesmoke

10-12-2006, 05:21 AM

Oh...I just remembered another thing. One of the cars occupants has a CCW permit and was carrying. They had asked if he had any weapons and he presented his ccw permit. They took his pistol and cuffed him (this wasn't the person that they had the name of that bought the fireworks...but he was in the car). They asked if he was law enforcement...which he wasn't. And they harrassed him quite a bit about why he needed a ccw. He stated he was exercising his rights (he lives in Kern county where permits are freely given to those with no criminal records), but the officers didn't like that answer. They finally returned his weapon and uncuffed him though....but they were very uncomfortable with the situation according to the guy with the ccw.

I'm not condoning what they did...it was stupid, but it was an interesting story. I bet they never do it again though....lol.

artherd

10-12-2006, 05:48 AM

People get all paranoid at gun shows and start rumors that you are going to get busted or that the DOJ is after you. I have a solution, don't do anything wrong! That is right. If you don't offer machine guns for sale, it is hard for them to bust you on it. Sure they took some of my lowers and claimed they were machine guns, but did they arrest me?
Not yet... :)

Whitesmoke

10-12-2006, 05:53 AM

Not yet... :)

:eek: Did you ever get those lowers back Wes?

6172crew

10-12-2006, 06:28 AM

:eek: Did you ever get those lowers back Wes?

Or Ben?:cool:

metalhead357

10-12-2006, 07:00 AM

I know for sure about the man who went to NV to sell his AR and then crossed back over. After his arrest his wife had the DOJ knock down the door to their house at around 2 in the morning and storm in with MP5's at the ready as if he were some terrorist. He's a felon now and lost his rights and his entire firearms collection.

I know someone who's been involved with the case pretty well and he's told me all about it but I can't remember the guys name.. and I'm not sure he'd want it posted here anway.

+1 on that bit folks. I was there with him when his friend told him that. Not a fella' to lie about it and does actually have lunch with Ig-ster from time to time:eek: , the friend that is- not me or joe!!!!!!! I do try to keep my lunches relatively DOJ free just as well as no msg:p

luvtolean

10-12-2006, 08:17 AM

...I was approached by an older gent who was a decorated marine from Vietnam. He asked me about the AR15 he had bought decades ago - had heard something about California now considering it an "Assault Weapon". I explained briefly his situation and gave him the phone number for NRA's attorney's office. Naturally he was stunned to learn he may need a lawyer! Surely no one here wants to refer to this American as a "criminal" - this is a failing in the California legislative system, not on the decorated veteran's part. People should be able to expect that, if they never take the gun out of the closet, they should not need an attorney!

Mike, I agree with your points regarding ongoing cases. The FCI is not some shadow organization, and I don't think they're out fearmongering.

But comparing people that go out of state and buy 30 round mags to that marine is a bit insulting to the Marine.

I understand where that marine is coming from, and I think those kinds of cases are tragic.

But if someone puts the energy into buying mags out of state, they probably know they can't get them back in Cali...or that's where they'd buy them.

Blacktail 8541

10-12-2006, 08:30 AM

Who said it was easy?

Do you really want it to be easy to change laws?

*shakes head*

Never said it should be easy, Just not almost imposssible. You gave the tone in your response that it was a course of action that is not at all diffficult to accomplish. While I do not like some laws, I do not break them either. I don't like my rights to be taken away or limited by others. I spent 8 years in the USMC fighting for those rights, not just for myself but for others as well. California, while not the most restrictive state in the union, is certainly very close to it. And I do not leave when things do not go my way or get tough.
If others are not made aware of the happenings that started this thread, and take proactive steps to make sure that others are aware of these happenings, then we are not doing our part. While most all on this board are informed about the laws, others who do not deal with firearm issues on a regular basis; often will not know that standard cap magazines are not allowed for importation into CA as well as the mirad of other laws.

Liberty Rules

10-12-2006, 01:38 PM

As far as providing specifics - docket numbers, names, addresses, SSN numbers, dna profiles - etc - remember these are ongoing cases - the accused may not want their specifics splattered all over the internet. And there can be other reasons to not expect that info to be made public, like the accused's attorney not wanting intererence from outside infuences? Public attention can cause a prosecutor to have a bad day. That may seem like a good thing, but I'd bet if YOU were the one facing charges it might look a bit differently

I would think John Burtt's carrer in law enforcement (including sniper duty), his creating FCI and chairing it full-time...
http://calgunlaws.com/images/fcilogo.gif (http://fiftycal.org/)
...his membership on the Board of NRA - these things would buy him some credibility. When it comes to the mentality of DOJ and his colleagues, he has an edge on most of us, who would disagree? I don't feel better knowing that people like John Burtt have retired and hope there are a couple cops hired since that, when put together, have half the dedication to individual rights that JB has.

IMO, John is simply warning us that law enforcement may have placed INCREASED ATTENTION to violations of gun laws. After seeing how this website has pissed off DOJ over the past year, it wouldn't surprise me on that basis alone. he is asking gun owners to protect themselves by making surte they are in compliance with the law, that small mistakes may not be overlooked as they have been in the past.

So I don't understand the controversies, unless something else is in play here that is not obvious.

Mike

Following Mike's astute--and ACCURATE--comments, I do not understand why some are so quick to attack others within the community who are trying to help them. I saw several posts above which called FCI's veractiy into question. Why? FCI is on the forefront of protecting 50 cal rights in numerous states. They sent out email warnings to members in CA to try to help YOU. If you believe the LA Task Force and the search warrants are bogus, go back and read Mike Haas' post. Ask a friend to hit you in the head with a 2X4, then re-read the post. Maybe then some sense will sink in.

The task force is real. Both of the seach warrants identified by FCI happened. I am an attorney. I personally know people involved in both of the incidents. I've reviewed documents in one of the cases (for legal purposes, so I cannot and will not discuss the details here or anywhere else). I do not understand why some of you believe this is made up. This isn't a game, particularly to the people involved. There are ordinary people out there (two at the moment) who are in fear that their lives will be wrecked and, at the very least, that their finances will be drained by attorneys fees. If you live in the area, do not kid yourself that you would be immune from this type of search. It is outrageous.

I have met with John Burtt on a number of occasions. He is a tireless advocate for our rights. He is supremely responsible and forthright. As chairman of FCI and a member of the NRA Board of Directors, he is not going to issue alerts without verification.

I have been working on several fund raising proposals to help out some of the folks in this jam. We already have a firm commitment from a major manufacturer to donate an $8,000 rifle to the fund raising cause. I hope to post details for the fundraising in the next few weeks. If we can lawfully conduct a non-profit raffle for the rifle, that will be one avenue. I have already made arrangements for donations to be accepted by the legal defense counsel for one of the individuals who was searched. Once I have all of the details worked out, I will start a new post and ask for your help. You will have an opportunity to help fight.

Emphasizing something Mike said above, please remember that you will not receive every detail you are seeking because of the ongoing investigations. Even should they be inclined to discard their privacy by posting every detail online, they cannot do so with ongoing investigations.

mikehaas

10-12-2006, 02:27 PM

...But comparing people that go out of state and buy 30 round mags to that marine is a bit insulting to the Marine...
Of course, no insult to our proud servicemen and women is ever intended - I'm a co-founder of the tax-deductible Project Bore Snake (http://ProjectBoreSnake.org/) which has raised over $41K so far in 2006 alone...
http://projectboresnake.org/gfx/pbsanim.gif (http://ProjectBoreSnake.org/)
...every penny goes to buying and sending bore snakes for the troops!

I meant that if the persons who bought the hi-cap mags didn't know they were illegal, the cases are comporable. Something that was once legal is now a felony for people that never planned or perptrated a criminal act - it's more than unreasonable.

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a simplistic catch phrase. Logically, CA law is non-sensical on it's face. Think back - before the AW Ban, remember how OUTRAGEOUS it seemed that these black ugly guns were being picked on for political reasons? One type of semi-auto being illegal, another is fine. No one even thinks about it anymore.

Then, remember how OUTRAGEOUS it used to seem that the government was going to differentiate between GOOD ARs and BAD ARs based on COSMETIC FEATURES? Now one type of BLACK UGLY semi-auto is illegal, another BLACK UGLY semi-auto is fine. No one even thinks about it anymore.

Remember how OUTRAGEOUS it seemed when hi-cap mags were banned (especially since the ones you owned were still legal?) No one even thinks about it anymore. (In fact, wer'e calling others criminals for buying them before any facts are known.)

Then the DOJ - that organization that has the RESPONSIBILITY to clarify these unworkable laws, they bend over backward sluffing off that job - "the buck stops down there somewhere" - to the 58 CA county DA's.

Some members of this forum have gotten so immersed in this unworkable situation that they become numb to the total insanity of it all and start to carve out territories and heirarchies within it - "that CRIMINAL doesn't even KNOW that 30 round mags are illegal, hang 'em!" is just another way of saying "I'm superior to you". We should not allow ourselves to be divided and conquered because only UNITY is going to fix this.

And I use 2006 as an example - never have gun-owners been so united. Each of us here was at the leading edge of a momentous thing. But it will take UNITY to sustain it.

Mike

MikeK

10-12-2006, 02:36 PM

(In fact, wer'e calling others criminals for buying them before any facts are known.)
Care to cite *any* example of where citizens of California purchasing hi-caps and bringing them into the state wouldn't be a criminal? I'm not even going to ask for factual cases. Give me a hypothetical.

Some members of this forum have gotten so immersed in this unworkable situation that they become numb to the total insanity of it all and start to carve out territories and heirarchies within it - "that CRIMINAL doesn't even KNOW that 30 round mags are illegal, hang 'em!" is just another way of saying "I'm superior to you".

Oh BS. In today's day and age, everyone should know the law. The Internet, boards like this one and other resources make it almost impossible to put forth minimal effort and remain ignorant.

Ignorance of the law *is* no excuse.

"I didn't know I needed insurance"

"I didn't know I needed a hunting license"

"I didn't know you couldn't sell drugs to children"

It's people's responsibility to do a modicum of research and make sure what they're doing is legal.

Or should we raise taxes and start having state funded classes?

I thought not.

ETA: BTW, nice project you have going. Kudos.

luvtolean

10-12-2006, 02:42 PM

Mikehaas, I don't question your commitment to soldiers.

My only point is, it's hard for me to believe a Californian would go to an out of state gun show to buy a 30 round mag and not know it was wrong. I guess it's minimally possible.

As far as your Marine example, I have several friends that left for the military in the mid-90s. They came back wanting to buy ARs and you should've seen the looks on their faces when I told them they couldn't buy one.

Most people don't surf the web keeping up on gun laws. And these people were young rifle enthusiasts!

Had they bought them before they left, I can almost guarantee they would've been in possession of illegal rifles as they wouldn't have known to register.

Myself: had I bought an AR in the mid 90's like I wanted to, I would've been screwed too.

While I was in college, I didn't keep up on the laws. I wouldn't have known to register the thing either.

I think making people like this felons is the real tragedy to these inane laws...I mean, a FELON! For not paying attention that gun laws changed. That's crazy.

bwiese

10-12-2006, 03:30 PM

I do notice that quite a few folks get in trouble like this "because they don't read about guns all the time", etc. etc.

What that also more than likely implies is that they are not NRA members and/or are not active in gun politics.

Funny how they come whining for help and expecting NRA to do something when they haven't even been active in the field.

These guys FCI was warning about may be exceptions.

But when I run into supposed gun people that don't know the law, I figure they're not much use to the cause anyway because if they don't keep up on the laws, they're not keeping up on the politics and they need a good swift kick in the a**.

I have had private chats w/some reliable folks who directly know these LA guys - "M1A guy" and "belt fed guy".

From what I've heard/been told, 'M1A Guy' appears to be a not-so-bright guy that may've done something stupid in front of an informant, and he rolled & ratted on 'belt fed' guy.

'Belt fed' guy may well be entirely blameless because LAPD/LASO doesn't know details of hicap feeding device law... it was perfectly legal to have & retain hicap belted ammo across the 1999/2000 boundary. As long as those belts were not shot to below 11 rounds, additional ammo can be added to refresh those belts: there is simply NO crime in CA penal code, nor any CA regulatory code, banning adding capacity to an existing hicap feeding device.

Sig226

10-12-2006, 03:36 PM

Care to cite *any* example of where citizens of California purchasing hi-caps and bringing them into the state wouldn't be a criminal? I'm not even going to ask for factual cases. Give me a hypothetical.

Well, I can, except I'm not sure what a "high-cap" is. Do you mean standard magazine? (Instead of a CA limited cap mag?) :cool:

I own 3 30 rounders for the AR, and 4 20s for the Mini-14. I have had them all from about '94.

I may goto nevada and buy replacement parts for one of these mags. Well if no one is selling parts I can buy the whole damn mag in NV, and take it apart for spare parts for a rebuild. (Personally I would throw away the floor plate for safety but...)

I'm sure the DOJ would pull me over, and may even charge me with importation, however they are going to have to prove I did something illegal. Which they would have a hard time doing unless they plant evidence.

On another note--Do you think your attitude and comments are helping the community, Mike Hass, or Californians out? I didn't think so.

MikeK

10-12-2006, 03:39 PM

I may goto nevada and buy replacement parts for one of these mags. Well if no one is selling parts I can buy the whole damn mag in NV, and take it apart for spare parts for a rebuild. (Personally I would throw away the floor plate for safety but...)

I'm sure the DOJ would pull me over, and may even charge me with importation, however they are going to have to prove I did something illegal. Which they would have a hard time doing unless they plant evidence.

Exactly. How would they charge you with anything when you're only bringing in spare parts. Your analogy is flawed. We're talking about people bringing in entire mags. HI CAP mags! ;) Can you give me an example where someone would be bringing hi cap mags legally into the state, LEO's and Dealers excluded?

On another note--Do you think your attitude and comments are helping the community, Mike Hass, or Californians out? I didn't think so.

Yes. Yes I do. :D

luvtolean

10-12-2006, 03:52 PM

Can you give me an example where someone would be bringing hi cap mags legally into the state, LEO's and Dealers excluded?

Of course, that's easy. Someone who left CA with legally owned 30 round mags.

Military issued people: I know plenty of servicemen who have issued M16 mags at their houses.

MikeK

10-12-2006, 03:54 PM

Of course, that's easy. Someone who left CA with legally owned 30 round mags.

Military issued people: I know plenty of servicemen who have issued M16 mags at their houses.
*sigh*

We were talking about people going to gun shows, purchasing hi caps and bringing them back.

I guess that got lost in the subsequent posts. Sorry. :(

blkA4alb

10-12-2006, 04:06 PM

Military issued people: I know plenty of servicemen who have issued M16 mags at their houses.
There was a big debate awhile ago about that matter. I still believe that it is not legal for them to take the high capacity magazines home. When on the base is another story, but no where in law is there an exemption for the magazines to be issued to servicemen in california.

icormba

10-12-2006, 04:08 PM

But when I run into supposed gun people that don't know the law, I figure they're not much use to the cause anyway because if they don't keep up on the laws, they're not keeping up on the politics and they need a good swift kick in the a**.

Unfortunately... this is the case with most gun owners in California :( .

Most of the gun owners I know are asking me (of all people) about new gun laws and such... 2 of which are cops and 1 judge(retired)!

grammaton76

10-12-2006, 04:36 PM

Here's a completely crimeless scenario for you:

You leave CA with your standard capacity magazines, which are in a poor state of repair.

You are observed purchasing fully assembled mags, to obtain replacement parts.

You swap the replacement parts over to recondition your existing mags and discard the remaining parts of the other mags.

Upon return, you are popped for having purchased and imported full capacity mags, when all you're doing is returning with your reconditioned, legally owned mags.

MikeK

10-12-2006, 04:39 PM

luvtolean

10-12-2006, 04:42 PM

There was a big debate awhile ago about that matter. I still believe that it is not legal for them to take the high capacity magazines home. When on the base is another story, but no where in law is there an exemption for the magazines to be issued to servicemen in california.

While it is debatable, in some people's eyes, whether a citizen is part of the militia, it is very clear a member of the armed forces and/or reserves is.

Therefore, I think a soldier or marine has very clear second amendment protections for their firearms gear, which trumps state law.

grammaton76

10-12-2006, 04:48 PM

Another point is, you don't STOP being a member of the military when you go home for the night, just like you don't STOP being an LEO when you go home for the night.

The mags are military/LEO only, and they're being stored by military/LEOs the whole time.

blkA4alb

10-12-2006, 05:18 PM

The troops were issued the magazines for training use on federal land, the military base. I admit I don't know all the ins and outs of the issuing of military equipment. However, I do know what the law says and no where in the law does it give an exemption for the post-ban possession of high capacity magazines for current military members. Here is the law.

Commencing January 1, 2000, prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale, or transfer of any large capacity magazine unless to specifically designated parties and under specified conditions. A violation of this provision is a misdemeanor or a felony. A large capacity magazine is defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than ten rounds but shall not include any .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
Firearms dealers may sell large capacity magazines only to parties who are exempt under PC section 12020 from the large capacity magazine restriction.
Conditions and entities specifically exempted under this statute by PC section 12020 include:

S Sale to, giving to, lending to, or importation or purchase of a large capacity magazine by federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies.

S Sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation of a large capacity magazine by a California peace officer who is authorized to carry a firearm in the scope of his or her duties.

S Sale of a large capacity magazine to a California firearms dealer.

S Lending or giving of a large capacity magazine to a California firearms dealer or gunsmith for maintenance, repair, or modification and the return of the magazine to its owner.

S Sale to, giving to, or lending of large capacity magazines to entities that operate armored vehicle businesses, the lending of large capacity magazines by these entities to their authorized employees, and the return of those magazines to the armored vehicle businesses by their employees.

Blacktail 8541

10-12-2006, 05:32 PM

I would like to see the california goverment try to charge a service member with a felony for haveing issued gear [magazines] at home as directed by a suoerior officer and CA make it stick. He is a federal employee with federaly issued gear. While he may not use this gear in private actions, he is required by lawful official orders,to maintain that gear at the place assigned as liveing quarters. And yes rented quarters are considered assigned as long as the service member recieves a houseing allowance, also they are subject to military search.

Whitesmoke

10-12-2006, 05:36 PM

The troops were issued the magazines for training use on federal land, the military base.

Thats not really true....I used to be in the Army National Guard. We trained everywhere.....The Kern County Fair grounds, private land (our company commanders family owned a 100,000+ acre cattle ranch), local shooting ranges, etc.

I performed ceremonies at funerals, etc. I also went to the LA riots in '92 and none of that was training on Federal bases. We also were issued our gear including magazines to take home.....thats the only way you could show up for drill ready to go.

blkA4alb

10-12-2006, 05:45 PM

I should have clarified exactly what I meant. (I cannot think of a better way to say this next sentence, and have edited a couple times.) Possession at home is not the big issue here (though by the letter of the law I think it could still be illegal.) What I do not believe to be legal is to use them in any way on private time (not training, not with the military.)

Again, I have never been in the military and don't claim to know everything about how gear is issued or the finer points relating to that.

Also I am basing my opinion on what the law says. Not what a cop may or may not do, or how the courts would treat a case like this if it went to court.

IANAL ;) .

Blacktail 8541

10-12-2006, 05:54 PM

See my reply above. It would indeed be illeagle to use them for private use. Federal protection only comes with authorized use.

Whitesmoke

10-12-2006, 05:57 PM

Possession at home is not the big issue here (though by the letter of the law I think it could still be illegal.) What I do not believe to be legal is to use them in any way on private time (not training, not with the military.)

That may be true....using them for private use may be technically illegal, I'm not sure though.

blkA4alb

10-12-2006, 06:01 PM

See my reply above. It would indeed be illeagle to use them for private use. Federal protection only comes with authorized use.
Since I am not a lawyer, I do not know whether the military can decide to override the state's weapons laws and say it is fine for these people to posess high capacity magazines. If you can show me a letter/document/law that shows this then fine. But from the California law there is no exemption for posession of a high capacity magazine by military members.

IANAL ;) .

ETA: Under the same logic, would it be ok for the troops to bring home incindiary rounds? Or any other item that is prohibited under state law if the military tells them its ok?

xenophobe

10-12-2006, 06:07 PM

Funny. I was thinking the same thing.

Please post your sources, where you get the information that this is not happening and this is all some grand conspiracy.

Blacktail 8541

10-12-2006, 06:26 PM

I would have to go to a military lawyer to find exact codes, So as you already knew, I am not able to produce documentation. I do still have contacts in the military here in Cali and will ask them to find out.

Munitions are a controlled asset in the millitary believe it or not, and issued for official actions only. Any order to store them at a personal residence would not be a lawful order and hence illeagle.:rolleyes:

PIRATE14

10-12-2006, 06:48 PM

PIRATE14

10-12-2006, 06:51 PM

There is not a state exemption......******** like this a terrible legal mess.

You have TITLE 10 Forces....TITLE 32, some might have arrest authority.

Depends on the situation.....that's why there are JAGS but not like the one on TV:D

metalhead357

10-12-2006, 07:18 PM

Oh no, little bobcat. Nice try. It's been put forth that the evil DOJ Sith Lords are following poor hapless Californians to out of state shows, then following them back to hassle them once they get home. The onus to prove it's happening is squarely on the shoulders of whomever suggested it.

Put up or shut up.

Verifiable examples please. Factual news reports would be nice. Please...something other than "I heard that...blah...blah...blah."

Well, M.... Ya' got TWO people here that were standing in a guys living room who is directly involved in the case. Not sounding cryptic~ but this guy likes his privacy and the guy whom 'got busted' is still in some kind of state of legal-limbo certainly would't want all his info posted all over the internet. THAT is about "as close" to the source that I EVER wanna get thank you. But the guy's guns are gone, he's SOL all the way around from the incident.

Take it or leave it. It HAS happened, whether it happens ((as in post or previously to this) to the parinoid levels that some fear/claim is certainly debatebale but the 'original' case is not.....not by a long shot......