The Criminal Purchase of Firearm Ammunition (research article).

[tenpercentfirearms]

Take a gander at this.

http://www.i-pensieri.com/gregr/papers/TitaBragaRidgewayPierce-LA-ammo.pdf

[C.G.]

I wonder who funded it.

[schizrade2]

Makes about as much sense as half of the stupid laws out there.

[Builder]

Why should it suprise us that convicted criminals would perpetrate additional criminal behavior?! This simply proves that criminals are not rehabilitated from their criminal behavior and their criminal mindset continues. This is a problem that they have and needs to be addressed but not by restricting law abiding citzens access to rightful ammo.
To me it is interesting that only 2.6% of purchases were from prohibited individuals. These prohibited individuals should be contacted to find out why they thought they could purchase in the first place.
Of course, someone will propose that the purchase of ammo should have more restrictions placed upon it, thus only impacting us legal purchasers even more.
I like the idea that 97% of all purchasers are perfectly legal! I also wonder if any of this illegally purchase ammo resulted in any other illegal activities. Just because they purchased it illegally, there is no data in this study to show that it was ever used in a criminal activity. In drawing provable conclusions, the word "may" should never be used as this is the point of the study, to prove something and draw provable conclusions. These authors used the word "may" 8 times.
Builder

[luvtolean]

Wow, aren't those stats familiar. ;)

So, that's where they came from...

[Wulf]

I like how they propose that forcing felons to obtain ammo out of state (like they do their guns) will increase the cost and thereby force felons to "economize on firearm use" thereby reducing gun violence. I'd bet money that these are the same people who think raising taxes increases revenue, and are baffeled when a tax cut causes treasury reciepts to increase.

[Builder]

I wonder who funded it.
"This research was funded by a grant from the National Institute of Justice No 2001-IJ-CX-0028."

[Builder]

I'd bet money that these are the same people who think raising taxes increases revenue, and are baffeled when a tax cut causes treasury reciepts to increase.
I would agree. Look at the Authors’ affiliations:
G E Tita, Criminology, Law and Society, University of California–Irvine, Irvine, CA, USA
A A Braga, John F Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, USA
G Ridgeway, Statistics Group, RAND, Santa Monica, CA, USA
G L Pierce, College of Criminal Justice, Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA

[Richie Rich]

Using their statstics. 97% of people are honest and law abiding and less then 3% are bad guys.

So, they will change laws to mess up 97% of people (who are honest) and perhaps get .05% of badguys to not use a gun and resort to sharp sticks and harsh words to commit crime. The other badguys will just have to drive a little further (or practice less)..

Mark my words, they are going to tax or regulate the crap out of ammo (including reloading supplies).. There is no 2nd amendment for ammo.

**Lets use smoking as a prime example. When I first started smoking, you could be any age and smoke. Cigarettes were $1.00 a pack. You could smoke just about anywhere. Now you have to be 18 to buy them, they are almost $5.00 a pack (soon to go up another $2.50 a pack) and you can no longer smoke just about anywhere... Tobacco companies have been sued like crazy by the federal government and have had to pay out huge settlements.**

How many people are going to be able to afford to practice or plink if they add a $2.00 per round tax on ammunition? Imagine how much more the price will go up when the government decides to sue the ammo manufacturers for producing a dangerous (yet legal) product. How much could you shoot when a box of Winchester white box 9mm is say $200.00.

Will this hurt criminals? Nope, not at all..

Buy it cheap and stack it deep... Strange times are ahead..

** Yes I do smoke, no I don't advocate it... Just using it as an example of a product that can be regulated and taxed very harshly...

[Wulf]

How much could you shoot when a box of Winchester white box 9mm is say $200.00.

When you state it that way, it made an obvious application of the law of unintended consquesnces clear to me.

If you heavily tax and regulate ammo, ammo manufacturers will cease to make cheep FMJ practice ammo; all of their production will be the top shelf HPs. When taxes are that high the difference in cost of the loadings will be irrelevent to the consumer so why not have the good stuff; besides at that price point there wouldent be any significant market for training ammo, but you'd still by for personal defence. So, in this scenario, you could actually see the fatality rate from handgun violence increase do to the use of better ammo.

[hoffmang]

I think this report is mixed.

First, on the point of whether the 2A should cover this, it will if we get to where we should. Just like taxes on publication are subject to 1A scrutiny, should we get a real 2A ruling, high taxes or records kept will be subject to scrutiny.

That said, and only if we had a real 2A ruling - I'm not so sure I'd oppose NICS checks for ammo purchases. They would have to be instant and also available for internet sales before I would support it, but I don't think its such a bad idea to keep prohibited persons from buying ammo.

-Gene

[luvtolean]

NICS checks? That would suck

I'm pretty sure that'd put Wal Mart out of the game (awful for pistol and .22 shooters), and other vendors would raise their prices.

Having waited for NICS paperwork and checks for friends and family in free states, there's nothing instant about it.

It'd be problematic for gun shows too. Heck...in many ways, ammo is the only reason to go to them now. NICS might put the final nail in the coffin.

[hoffmang]

First let me re-iterate, this is in a post Second Amendment recognized world.

There are real ways that could protect our privacy and let the checks be truly instant or relatively painless for retailers. One option would be a no records held ammo license that has an expiry period.

Now I say this as a person who opposes ID checks for airline travel. Look how well they stopped 9/11...

But it's not out of question that coming up with a safe and easy way for the 97% to buy while making it hard for the 3% could have a real impact on crime. I'm willing to buy the statement that youthful gangsters would have a harder time getting ammo than the gun.

-Gene

[Addax]

Where do most "Real California Gang Members" obtain their firearms from?

(My percentages are only estimates, so I cannot provide any facts to support this, but just go with me on this one...)

1) Purchasing from out of state with a different ID (Say 10%)

2) Using a Fake ID in California (Identify Theft is huge out here) (Say 20%)

3) Having someone affliated with the gangs that has and maintains a clean record (Say 20%)

4) Purchase them from Mexico (50%)

Does anyone remember the TV Special (I think it was Dateline or 60 Minutes or one of those shows, it was a couple years ago) where their team went across the border to TJ and through some sources found someone who was selling US ARMY issue M16A2 rifles and M4 Carbines and ammo? How hard would it be for the "Real Gang Members" to use their sources to find folks in TJ or other places in Mexico or along our "Open Border" and other states to supply them with what they need?

My end point here is that I believe as many of us do in laws that make sense in the long run.

I do not believe in laws that only go to to fulfill someone's or some groups fantasy that they are making a difference in the world.... Even if it is only a short term goal.

In the end, 97% of law abiding citizens are going to have to go through more steps just to buy some ammo to go to the range.

If you ask me, this is crafted as a deterrent for law abiding gun owners to purchase ammo, own guns and go shooting at the range..

If someone was going to pass a law that now made it 10 times harder for you just purchase gas, you would be pretty upset and you would wonder why you are being punished, because gang members buy gas too for their cars and their drive by shootings... So we are made to suffer...

No thanks, I say fight this one all the way or come up with a better and effective system to regulate ammo sales to those "gang members" who would use it to kill other human beings...

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Buy it cheap and stack it deep... Strange times are ahead..




What he said!

[Crazed_SS]

Hmm.. I hear Mexico gets a lot of their guns from us.

Makes sense.

[The SoCal Gunner]

I think this report is mixed.

First, on the point of whether the 2A should cover this, it will if we get to where we should. Just like taxes on publication are subject to 1A scrutiny, should we get a real 2A ruling, high taxes or records kept will be subject to scrutiny.

That said, and only if we had a real 2A ruling - I'm not so sure I'd oppose NICS checks for ammo purchases. They would have to be instant and also available for internet sales before I would support it, but I don't think its such a bad idea to keep prohibited persons from buying ammo.

-Gene

I'd also support an instant check. Its not like I have anything to hide or that CA doesn't have all my info from all the handguns I purchased. Like the report said, it could possibly lead to the recovery of stolen or other illegal firearms if authorities investigated an illegal purchase made by a convicted felon.

I'm all for gun rights and less restrictions but while living in Los Angeles, crime is a reality.

And the 3% stat only applies to illegal purchases in Los Angeles made by convicted felons, not by straw purchases or purchases in other cities or anything otherwise illegal.

[kantstudien]

So I guess all the pro-instant check people never buy ammo online and are dependent on either Wal-Mart or overpriced ammo?

[luvtolean]

Hoffmang did specifically say he'd only be in favor if it didn't mess up online ordering.

In practice, I don't think that's possible. Online ammo guys already don't ship to places in Cali as they're afraid. Adding more hoops isn't going to change that.

I don't see why controlling ammo is a practical way of keeping it out of the hands of crooks when gun control isn't...

[hoffmang]

luvto,

This is wrote speculation at this point (and let me re-iterate that I would only support this in a post 2A SCOTUS world - otherwise this is yet another step down the slippery slope) but.

Its not all that hard to get a gun, but guns last a while. I can see prohibited folks buying guns blackmarket and walking into Big-5 and picking up ammo...

-Gene

[socalguns]

You know, they go to the same place to get their ammo.

[Addax]

What he said!

Now only if Crazy Gideons would sell ammo!!!!

That would be a hoot!

[ibbryn]

So the claim is that because they found 52 people prohibited from possessing ammo who purchased it, they should run checks on all who try.

I wonder if those 52 were arrested, tried and convicted. They signed a register and left their thumbprint when purchasing. Shouldn't be too hard to get a conviction. Rigth?

If they didn't get arrested, THAT is the reason we have a crime problem.

[MikeK]

So the claim is that because they found 52 people prohibited from possessing ammo who purchased it, they should run checks on all who try.

I wonder if those 52 were arrested, tried and convicted. They signed a register and left their thumbprint when purchasing. Shouldn't be too hard to get a conviction. Rigth?

If they didn't get arrested, THAT is the reason we have a crime problem.
Careful.

Don't call people who break gun laws criminals. :rolleyes:

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I'd also support an instant check. Its not like I have anything to hide or that CA doesn't have all my info from all the handguns I purchased. Like the report said, it could possibly lead to the recovery of stolen or other illegal firearms if authorities investigated an illegal purchase made by a convicted felon.



If our fearless leaders in Sacramento ever manage to pass restrictions on our ammo purchases how long do you think it would take before they demand more? Waiting periods, monthly ammo limits, background check with DROS fees to be sure you are eligible to make such a dangerous purchase, etc.

If they can propose an instant check for ammo purchases why not for firearms purchases? :D

[hoffmang]

If they can propose an instant check for ammo purchases why not for firearms purchases? :D

Now that is funny!

-Gene