Bushmaster M17S

[kAnJii]

Are bullpups legal in CA? I emailed Bushmaster about this rifle, they said it is illegal because of detach mag. So, is this the real reason or is it becuase bullpups are illegal in CA.

[bwiese]

Are bullpups legal in CA? I emailed Bushmaster about this rifle, they said it is illegal because of detach mag. So, is this the real reason or is it becuase bullpups are illegal in CA.

There is no specific ban on bullpups per se. Gotta refer to the Penal Code... PC 12276.1 bans semiautomatic centerfire rifles with a detachable magazines and one or more of <pistol grip, flash hider, folding, thumbhole or telescoping stock, grenade launcher, forward pistol grip...>

The fact that this gun has a detachable magazine and a pistol grip (we can argue if it's a regular pistol grip or a forward pistol grip, but it's moot as both are banned) make it an assault weapon. Can't remember if M17 has a bare muzzle or a flash hider - the latter would also be a no-no item.

From what I recall of the M17's design - I'm running from memory here, haven't shot one in 6-7 years - I don't think a legal fixed-mag configuration would be possible. However, it might well be able to be used without a pistol grip.

[grammaton76]

Can't have it. I feel your pain, as the M17S is one of the rifles I've always wanted.

It has a pistol grip, plus a detachable magazine. That's the problem that really can't be surmounted by its design; the PG is part of the frame, as I understand it. So maybe you could get some guy to cut off the grip and install a monsterman-like attachment to it, at which point it may be legal.

I haven't looked at it lately, especially in the light of the "monster garage" gunsmithing we've all been doing lately, so the M17S could actually be convertible.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/ibus2.jpg

Any successful modification would have to either fill in the entire gap behind the pistol grip (a la an "oar" stock) or result in the pistol grip being sawn off. As I don't see the M17S listed on Bushmaster's website anymore, I have the impression they don't make them anymore and that would be kinda scary to undertake if you did it wrong. Furthermore, this is assuming that there's nothing inside the pistol grip.

Another option would be pinning the magazine; I'm not sure whether it uses an AR style button or a precariously designed paddle style mag release.

A more daunting fact is that it doesn't look like it'd be easy to disassemble it for shipment into CA, even if you can get someone to DROS it. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like the receiver is the entire lower part of the rifle, in which case the pistol grip is moulded onto it and you have an AW even at the receiver level.

[bwiese]

As I also recall, the M17S is a 'dead product'. It's no longer being made.

Bushmaster is a good company and is supporting this product with parts/service but if you got one legally, it's still kind of an 'orphan' now...

[CWM4A1]

Here's the link...

http://www.bushmaster.com/m17s308.asp

Bushmaster decided not to make their .308 rifle and M17 bullpup in Oct 05. :( Would be a much better OLL to buy for a .308 built instead of the Hesse receiver. Ah well... if they just wait a little longer for the CA OLL hype...

[bwiese]

Here's the link...
Bushmaster decided not to make their .308 rifle and M17 bullpup. :( Would be a much better OLL to buy for a .308 built instead of the Hesse receiver.

No it wouldn't - for 308.

At least the later runs of Vulcan/Hesse lower are good enough to work fine with Armalite uppers.

The Bushy lower can only use a Bushy upper, which depended on a flawed bolt design.

Armalite's been making 308 ARs, in volume, for the past 9-10 yrs. They've gotten the bugs out. Everyone else doing 308 ARs (w/possible exception of Knight's/Stoner) is a newbie to it. We've also seen how, early on, Armalite recognized the problem using FAL mags in an AR design and made the hard decision to have a working rifle instead of cheap magazines.

[anotherone]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. The only reason to have a pinned/gripless M-17S is to be the first kid on the block with one... which was the only reason to have them before the ban. They're not really that cool, I'd save up for the SiG 556 if you're looking for more off-list madness.

[grammaton76]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. The only reason to have a pinned/gripless M-17S is to be the first kid on the block with one... which was the only reason to have them before the ban. They're not really that cool, I'd save up for the SiG 556 if you're looking for more off-list madness.

You're missing the main point - bullpup.

Although I think the FS2000 will admirably cover the gap left by the M-17S... probably even be easier to Californicate.

[Ratters]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. The only reason to have a pinned/gripless M-17S is to be the first kid on the block with one... which was the only reason to have them before the ban. They're not really that cool, I'd save up for the SiG 556 if you're looking for more off-list madness.

I have one and I have to agree. It is heavy, gets very hot in the forearm, and the trigger sucks. The AR is a much better platform.

[Addax]

I used to have one a long time ago, shot it a few times and really did not like it.

Yeah the bullpup configuration was cool, but it is kind of heavy and weight distribution was not all that great.

Trigger really sucked compared to a standard AR and I remember the forend would get scratched up easily.

Got rid of it after 6 months of owning one.

In fact I remember Bushmaster could not get rid of these and sat on a bunch of them for a long time, but this was also back in the days before the ban..

If I remember correctly, the Bullpup rifle used an AR type mag release button, so you could make it into a fixed mag configuration with some work...

I agree with anotherone, I would put my money towards a SIG 556 instead.

[tiger222]

I can't help but to love my M17s... it's an elephant, heavy, heats up, poor ergonomics... but :) finally got the perfect optic for it too!

you could make a fixed mag out of one pretty easy, the whole top section comes off or pivots forward... the pre 04 models have no muzzle device, but you can spin off the thread protectors & install a muzzle brake like a smith ent. comp. ~ std. AR threading....

i'm kinda tickled that it could be a collector item one day....

[PIRATE14]

You're missing the main point - bullpup.

Although I think the FS2000 will admirably cover the gap left by the M-17S... probably even be easier to Californicate.

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

CALIFORNICATION.............:D

SPREAD IT............!!!!!!!!!!

[anotherone]

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

CALIFORNICATION.............:D

SPREAD IT............!!!!!!!!!!

Will CWS be selling the FS2000 if we can seal it up and make it Cali Legal?

Furthermore I am wondering on rifles where the stock falls under the definition of "thumbhole stock" how permenant do any mods need to be? There's no mention of how permenant a mod needs to be to render the stock a non pistolgrip. There also doesn't appear to be any standards for constructive possession hence why couldn't a "snap-on" kit be developed for the FS2000 and other rifles?

[grammaton76]

Here's another tangent that almost meritted its own thread, but isn't going to:

My roomie was doing some research on the PS-90s a couple days ago, and found a guy who says he'll have a full California conversion kit available for $250 in Feb '07. It'll take care of the flash hider, extend it to a full 30"+ and provide a big moulded plastic overlay for the bottom of the grip.

I just wish that guy would move his timetable up - if they were to get banned in Dec, everyone who'd only buy one once there's a conversion mod for it is screwed.

[grammaton76]

There also doesn't appear to be any standards for constructive possession hence why couldn't a "snap-on" kit be developed for the FS2000 and other rifles?

That's exactly what's being developed for the PS90. I imagine the FS2000 will also be getting something similar... :)

As for constructive possession, you're correct - it also means a PS-90 would be legally configured in its stripped state, as long as you don't reassemble it within California without a conversion kit.