View Full Version : Legality of M11/9's
Hello all,
I recently received an email from a lady who's father in Long Beach, CA passed away recently and left behind an SWD M11/9 asking for advice with what to do with it. Problem is I am from Pennsylvania and am unaware of the specifics of California gun laws beyond the fact that they're generally not friendly. Apparently her father had printed out a picture of an M11/9 from my website which is how she found me.
I realize that if this is an FA M11/9 the chances of it being legally owned are slim to none, but SWD did also make Semi-auto M11/9's after '86.
Are M11/9's considered "Assault Weapons" under CA law? If so, could this gun have been grandfathered in?
How should this lady proceed if this is the case? I'd like to give her some sort of direction in what to do with her father's gun even if that includes telling her to find a lawyer or contact the ATF.
For the record I am intimately aware of NFA law as I own a few NFA items myself, so don't worry about that aspect of it.
Turbinator
10-09-2006, 08:31 AM
Remove and get rid of the threaded barrel.
Replace it with a non-threaded barrel.
As long as it's semi auto, she can legally transfer it to you as long as the hicaps stay with her.
If you don't want it, I'll take it. :)
Turby
Remove and get rid of the threaded barrel.
Replace it with a non-threaded barrel.
As long as it's semi auto, she can legally transfer it to you as long as the hicaps stay with her.
If you don't want it, I'll take it. :)
Turby
I have no interest in the gun myself, I just want to try to help her and her mother stay legal in disposing of it, they seem to want to sell it. The daughter emailed me and doesn't seem particularly gun-saavy. I sent her a follow-up email to figure out where she and her mother lived to see if they were in the same area as the father.
Ideally I'd like to send them to a trustworthy gunshop who can help them out a bit.
What would a legal M11/9 sell for in CA (open / closed bolt)? I'm sure it's considerably higher than elsewhere due to the scarcity.
JPglee1
10-09-2006, 09:04 AM
What would a legal M11/9 sell for in CA (open / closed bolt)? I'm sure it's considerably higher than elsewhere due to the scarcity.
Ive seen them as high as 1200 for a PM-11, which is the neutered version...
A genuine M11/9 I dont think is legal here as its an SWD and they are on the list.
J
A genuine M11/9 I dont think is legal here as its an SWD and they are on the list.
J
Would that be the case even if the SWD was owned before the ban? Didn't you guys have a grandfathering clause that allowed you to keep weapons owned before the AWB was enacted?
Good to know however that SWD is on the no-fly list.
ohsmily
10-09-2006, 09:42 AM
Would that be the case even if the SWD was owned before the ban? Didn't you guys have a grandfathering clause that allowed you to keep weapons owned before the AWB was enacted?
Good to know however that SWD is on the no-fly list.
There was no automatic "grandfathering". You had to take an extra step to register it as an assault weapon with the DOJ before 2000. Even if you did, that gun is not transferable to anyone in CA.
There was no automatic "grandfathering". You had to take an extra step to register it as an assault weapon with the DOJ before 2000. Even if you did, that gun is not transferable to anyone in CA.
I'll pass this information along, at this point I'm going to simply suggest she talk with someone locally who can help her.
I really feel for you guys with all the craziness you have to put up with on top of all the federal craziness.
bwiese
10-09-2006, 11:22 AM
OK, here's the skinny:
The 'SWD Incorporated M11' is banned-by-name assault weapon. There may be some handwaving since this is an M11/9, a different model, but that's cutting it pretty close.
Assault weapons as such were not really 'grandfathered'; existing owners had to submit a special registration form. I believe this gun was banned in 1989 so the lady's father would have had to have filed for registration back in 1991. Continued possession without such registration can be a felony; the 'registration' one may have done at a gun dealer (4473, DROS forms, waiting period) is not the same and there were special assault weapons registration periods that were, unfortunately, not at all well-publicized.
Even if it were not a banned-by-name gun, this appears to have a threaded barrel, which is a no-no feature in & of itself on pistols.
Your lady's father (and, indirectly, herself) is in likely possession of contraband as I'm betting this wasn't a registered assault weapon.
Since it's apparently an unregistered illegal assault weapon there is a good chance it cannot be transferred out of state in whole, although the receiver could be destroyed and parts retained. Hicap magazines cannot be transferred in CA but can be sold outside CA to most states. Their value is not too high anymore, however - nor are the stripped parts sets minus receiver worth much. And I don't think your lady friend wants to get involved at this level of detail.
An probate attorney or person who inherits AWs can possess AWs in estates for a 90 day period for matters of disposal. However, the possibly/likely questionable CA status of the gun may make this questionable overall..
The value of this gun is likely not high enough to warrant jumping thru hoops to go thru a licensed assault weapons dealer; the sale proceeds have a good chance of being a near-wash after all is said & done even if it could be done legally. An ordinary gun dealer in this particular instance can work for the estate in disposing of it legally but many will be scared away, and a licensed AW dealer will have a fairly hefty fee. Also licensed AW dealers may not want to touch it either since it's an unreg'd assault weapon from someone who (apparently) originally did not possess it legally.
Given the low value and CA grief involved, arrangements can be made thru an attorney to surrender this assault weapon to police/sheriff's dept. To avoid any legal problems or misinterpretations, she should not call directly. LA LEOs are currently on an assault weapons frenzy now and no need for further troubles for the lady friend...
bwiese,
Thanks for the run-down, I'm going to pass this information along to the lady.
Thanks for all your help guys, I don't even know this lady but I'd hate to see her end up in trouble over her father's stuff.
bwiese
10-09-2006, 11:29 AM
bwiese,
Thanks for the run-down, I'm going to pass this information along to the lady.
Thanks for all your help guys, I don't even know this lady but I'd hate to see her end up in trouble over her father's stuff.
No worries. If she has a probate attorney, he can call up & arrange surrender.
If this were a high-value gun there might be different paths to take, but this is a stamped gun of no real collector's value, and it was cheap even when it came out on the market.
These guns sell for 200-600 bucks all day in AZ. If they were willing to drive it to state line I would be intrested in a purchase as an AZ resident. PM me if that sounds like a decent option.
These guns sell for 200-600 bucks all day in AZ. If they were willing to drive it to state line I would be intrested in a purchase as an AZ resident. PM me if that sounds like a decent option.
That would be illegal.
Although it sounds like the chances are indeed very slim, if he owned it since the 1980s, he may have registered it. Lots of folks keep their firearms ownership quiet from their families.
As they go through his things, I don't think it would hurt for them to keep an eye out for any paperwork from the CA DOJ.
They should NOT transport it anywhere!
bwiese
10-09-2006, 12:13 PM
These guns sell for 200-600 bucks all day in AZ. If they were willing to drive it to state line I would be intrested in a purchase as an AZ resident. PM me if that sounds like a decent option.
Hey idiot,
Why are you trying to entice someone into a felony?
Didn't you know that a simple unreg'd assault weapon violation turns into a felony when transportation, etc is involved?
And this sounds like a solicitation for an illegal face-to-face transfer across state lines, bringing the Feds in.
Go troll somewhere else for felonies. Either that or you must be desparate for a cheap gun.
That would be illegal.
I hear ya. But it's illegal to have it right now. It's also illegal to drive it down too the police station with it. What’s the difference? In AZ it's legal to to a face to face transfer. 2.5 hour drive and alleviate the problem
At this point I've told the lady to not transport it and to find an attorney immediately as that's the only real advice I can give not knowing all the little details.
I want to thank you all again for all the help, and once again offer my condolences for the ludicrous amounts of bull******** you guys have to deal with in California.
If you ever feel like moving, check out Pennsylvania, we're one of the freest states in the nation! I am the founder of the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association (http://www.pafoa.org/).
I hear ya. But it's illegal to have it right now. It's also illegal to drive it down too the police station with it. What’s the difference? In AZ it's legal to to a face to face transfer. 2.5 hour drive and alleviate the problem
No, that would be an illegal interstate transfer of a firearm.
I would seriously suggest not talking anymore as you obviously have no grasp on firearm law at the state or federal level. Every time you post you risk getting someone in trouble. If you want to break firearm laws be my guest, but do not give illegal advice to other people.
bwiese
10-09-2006, 12:23 PM
I hear ya. But it's illegal to have it right now. It's also illegal to drive it down too the police station with it. What’s the difference? In AZ it's legal to to a face to face transfer. 2.5 hour drive and alleviate the problem
Damn, you're dense...
She has a possession defense due to estate planning. She likely could surrender it at PD but using a lawyer as an intermediary just makes things cleaner.
12280(a) and 12280(b) charges are separate - illegal transport is more serious than illegal possession.
And then you've thrown the whole Federal angle in there - face to face paperless transfer across state lines...
BTW, your prospective solicitation of multiple felonies is in & of itself a crime. And regardless of the CA issues, you can't buy a gun from a Californian without going thru an FFL dealer.
bwiese
10-09-2006, 12:23 PM
BTW danp it's a pleasure having you here!
Hey idiot,
Why are you trying to entice someone into a felony?
Didn't you know that a simple unreg'd assault weapon violation turns into a felony when transportation, etc is involved?
And this sounds like a solicitation for an illegal face-to-face transfer across state lines, bringing the Feds in.
Go troll somewhere else for felonies. Either that or you must be desparate for a cheap gun.
That's really un called for and I'd expect you of all people to be more grown up than that. If I said something ridiculous correct me, why personally attack? In AZ it's completely legal. So what the hell is the owners suppose to do with it dig a hole in the back yard?
That's really un called for and I'd expect you of all people to be more grown up than that. If I said something ridiculous correct me, why personally attack? In AZ it's completely legal. So what the hell is the owners suppose to do with it dig a hole in the back yard?
We did correct you and you basically said "Who cares it's illegal to have it already" and continued to suggest illegal actions.
PIRATE14
10-09-2006, 12:34 PM
OK, here's the skinny:
The value of this gun is likely not high enough to warrant jumping thru hoops to go thru a licensed assault weapons dealer; the sale proceeds have a good chance of being a near-wash after all is said & done. An ordinary gun dealer in this particular instance can work for the estate in disposing of it legally but many will be scared away, and a licensed AW dealer will have a fairly hefty fee. Also quite a few licensed AW dealers may not want to touch it either since it's an unreg'd assault weapon from someone who (apparently) originally did not possess it legally.
AW dealer can only handle guns that were legally registered......
Just destroy it........not worth the headache or monetary gain.
Ok, I am not aware of all the laws. Excuse me I'm sorry. How is this any different than if she were to move and go to another state where this little hand gun is legal? And how would it violate any federal laws if it's legal to have outside CA? I'm not some nut trying to cause crap here just trying to understand.
PIRATE14
10-09-2006, 12:56 PM
Ok, I am not aware of all the laws. Excuse me I'm sorry. How is this any different than if she were to move and go to another state where this little hand gun is legal? And how would it violate any federal laws if it's legal to have outside CA? I'm not some nut trying to cause crap here just trying to understand.
If she moved than she would be a resident of that state and subject to all rules, regs, and laws of that state.............
bwiese
10-09-2006, 01:57 PM
Ok, I am not aware of all the laws.
Duh.
How is this any different than if she were to move and go to another state where this little hand gun is legal?
If she went to another state, it'd be a problem as it'd be an illegal interstate transfer as per Federal law (totally forgetting about the CA issues).
If she *moved* to another state and did everything to establish residency, then such a transfer would not be an (illegal) interstate transfer!
And how would it violate any federal laws if it's legal to have outside CA?
It has nothing to do with the legality of the gun itself or CA law. Private party transfers without an intermediating FFL are generally illegal if they occur across state lines btwn residents of differing states.
If an NV resident meets you in Phoneix and you swap guns, you're both felons.
Parking-lot transfers in paper-free states are only legal between residents.
(There may be some handwaving for C&R stuff but I don't keep up with that.)
So now I understand all the ho hum. My FFL would be involved in the transaction if need be. Every time someone brings up this subject the typical response is to destroy, turn in or get it out of state to sell. I've been in AZ for a little less than a year now and have yet to run across this issue. Here in AZ you can legally buy rifles and handguns from private party sales. A simple "you can't do that" would have been reasonable. I grew up in CA when it was legal to buy these sort of guns so please excuse me if I'm not up to snuff with all the current laws. I check in here every once in a while to see how you guy's are doing because I support you in your fight for the OLL's. The attack on me and name calling is really unnecessary. This is a primary reason why the rest of the free country just laughs at you guy's from CA when you are denied your rights. As an ex CA resident and a CA property owner I have to say you guy's really need to be more approachable and less abrasive when issues like this come up. Good luck!
bwiese
10-09-2006, 02:34 PM
you guy's really need to be more approachable and less abrasive when issues like this come up. Good luck!
No, attempted felonies or possible entrapment should not be approached with carelessness. Inadequate refusal can be used against one in court to impeach credibility....
You apparently still don't realize that there are Federal issues aside from any CA issues.
Pleaese read noted gun lawyer James Jeffries' article, When the BATF Comes A-Callin' (from http://www.gunowners.com/batf.htm ) - in particular, when a solicitation for illegal activity comes along:
Sometimes you will know you are being shopped - perhaps by recognizing the agent or perhaps
by the sheer stupidity of the approach. You are probably also being recorded, possibly even
videotaped. Your response should be precisely the same whether it ultimately turns out that
you were speaking to a government microphone or to the village idiot.
You should firmly, but not politely, advise the proponent that what he/she is proposing is illegal
and that he/she is no longer welcome on your premises or at your table. Then remember RULE
ONE. Do not engage in a discussion of the law or alternative solutions to the "customer's"
proposal; terminate the conversation. Politeness is not called for when someone is either
intentionally or ignorantly soliciting you to commit a federal felony. And your politeness on a
federal tape recording in a subsequent criminal prosecution can often be construed as
acquiescence in or lack of strong feeling about committing a crime.
That says it best, esp the underlined part.
BTW, "you grew up in CA when it was legal to have these guns". So did I.
But that's still no excuse for attempting to solicit a Federal felony for illegal interstate transfer. Only now did you mention involving an FFL.
MikeK
10-09-2006, 02:40 PM
Unfortunately tho, regardless of what it says at the end of your link, politeness *is* called for on this board. Right?
Did I misread the rules?
c)No spamming(solicitation of goods unrelated to calguns.net that are
unwanted by users),trolling,flaming or other personal attacks. You may
disagree with other posters but please keep it clean and civil.
bwiese
10-09-2006, 02:44 PM
It was civil enough... flaming would've been 20 posts attacking him, calling him vile names.
I think (but really have no concrete proof) that repeated incidences of such conduct like Cdog's may well have been what got the For Sale & Trade forums closed down.
We don't want any allegations that this board lets people 'skirt around' laws, or that it enables them to do so.
Matt640h
10-09-2006, 03:39 PM
It was civil enough...
You started with Hey idiot
followed up with a Duh
not exactly clean and civil ;)
***Editted everywhere, here's no exception***
MikeK
10-09-2006, 03:51 PM
One man's "civil" is another man's "***** slap" I suppose. :rolleyes:
bwiese
10-09-2006, 03:59 PM
One man's "civil" is another man's "***** slap" I suppose.
Exactly, esp when illegal conduct is being trolled for....
MikeK
10-09-2006, 04:01 PM
Exactly, esp when illegal conduct is being trolled for....
I was being sarcastic. Should have used a tag I guess.
MisterDudeManGuy
10-09-2006, 07:29 PM
There is a difference between providing information, matter-of-factly, and a battle of personalities. Even refusing a proposition of a felony can be approached with tact. Firmness in a refusal does not necessitate being abusive or publicly humiliating a person who admits a lack of knowledge.
Conduct here, as well as on ANY online forum, should be such that you would be willing to say the EXACT same words in the presence of the person with which you are interacting. If this thread were had in person, I am sure someone would be spitting teeth. Deservedly so. Freedom of speech means freedom to express oneself, but not freedom from the consequences of that speech.
Being a jerk online is just easier to do since there are no direct repercussions. There is no justification for that kind of conduct.
ohsmily
10-09-2006, 08:35 PM
Dang BWiese, there are some sensitive folks here who can't handle some criticism...of course, I am not pointing to anyone in particular. The person who Bill was addressing kept INSISTING that what he was suggesting was legal even after being told it wasn't.
I guess you should coddle them in the future and say "hey little ones, no more talk of felonies and insisting on committing them. Please read the laws in the future so you don't get your sensitive little bottoms thrown in jail or perhaps get someone else in trouble with your conduct".
bwiese
10-09-2006, 08:43 PM
Conduct here, as well as on ANY online forum, should be such that you would be willing to say the EXACT same words in the presence of the person with which you are interacting. If this thread were had in person, I am sure someone would be spitting teeth. Deservedly so. Freedom of speech means freedom to express oneself, but not freedom from the consequences of that speech.
If that ****** asked me to do that in person, I'd respond exactly the same.
My online persona is the same as my in-person persona, perhaps with a tad less stridency in the latter.
In fact, solicitation of a felony is a felony itself. I might be tempted to spin him around and throw some cuffs on him and make a felony complaint after checking him for a wire.
bwiese
10-09-2006, 08:45 PM
Dang BWiese, there are some sensitive folks here who can't handle some criticism...of course, I am not pointing to anyone in particular. The person who Bill was addressing kept INSISTING that what he was suggesting was legal even after being told it wasn't.
I know. That's what made it so egregious - he kept digging himself in further.
It's one thing when an idiot wants to be an idiot, but when he wants to drag others with him, promote or prompt illegal conduct, etc. - well that's when the hammer comes down.
One key Calguns tenet is "anti-idiocy" - whether it comes from the DOJ or ATF or some doofus, bad thinking must be rebuked.
artherd
10-09-2006, 10:07 PM
Danp: good luck my friend, and thanks for stoping by. If you need a GOOD attorney for your friend, I recommend Trutanich-Michel, LLP in LA. They are TOP quality, the NRA retains them on firearms matters! I myself can personally recommend their services. http://www.tmllp.com/ (562) 216-4444 No affiliation other than a satisfied client.
These guns sell for 200-600 bucks all day in AZ. If they were willing to drive it to state line I would be intrested in a purchase as an AZ resident. PM me if that sounds like a decent option.
That's about 3 different kind of felonys.
Posession of an unregistered Assault Weapon (Felony)
Transportation of an unregistered Assault Weapon (a seperate Felony, with even greater penalty.)
sale/gifting/lending of an unregistered (or for that matter, registered) Assault Weapon (it's own Felony.)
Grind the F******* thing up, or surrender it to LEOs. Every second these two ladies have it is another second they are commiting a crime. I'm sure this is the last thing in the world they want to deal with.
artherd
10-09-2006, 10:09 PM
I hear ya. But it's illegal to have it right now. It's also illegal to drive it down too the police station with it.
Not if surrender arrangements are made it's not.
What’s the difference? In AZ it's legal to to a face to face transfer. 2.5 hour drive and alleviate the problem
That is still an illegal inter-state transfer if the parties are residetns of different states (and they are.)
You really need to buy a ********ing clue, ******** **********.
artherd
10-09-2006, 10:16 PM
Unfortunately tho, regardless of what it says at the end of your link, politeness *is* called for on this board. Right?
Entrapment for felony crimes will be taken seriously, and dealt with as such. If any feathers are ruffled, tough ********, do your ********ing homework.
Frankly it is likely as not that solicitations here are the work of either federal or state law enforcement, trying to create criminals. If you think my opinion is far-fetched, then I wish you the best of luck should you decide to PM this guy and accept his 6-ways illegal offer.
artherd
10-09-2006, 10:18 PM
If Cdog made me the same offer he made the poster, then I would have placed him under citizen's arrest, using nessecary force to restrain him, untill such time as I was able to turn him over to either a magistrate or to the County Sherrif.
No I am not kidding.
He got off lucky with Bill.
Conduct here, as well as on ANY online forum, should be such that you would be willing to say the EXACT same words in the presence of the person with which you are interacting.
MisterDudeManGuy
10-10-2006, 06:34 AM
If that a**hat asked me to do that in person, I'd respond exactly the same.
My online persona is the same as my in-person persona, perhaps with a tad less stridency in the latter.
In fact, solicitation of a felony is a felony itself. I might be tempted to spin him around and throw some cuffs on him and make a felony complaint after checking him for a wire.
Again, using his wrongness to justify yours doesn't really cut it. My kid tries that with me all the time, but no dice.
An intelligent reader will note that there is a difference of opinion on the subject, and would be wise to weigh opinion. Especially when a felony charge is in the mix. That difference in opinion could have been stated very tactfully and succinctly.
When information is presented as a batle of personalities, complete with expletives (and cute little stars to get around the filters), it not only looks immature - it IS immature. The need to bypass the system to get away with calling names does not help with the transfer of pertinent information related to firearms laws. The amount of effort and creativitiyy placed in calling names could have been used towards being tactful. That was a choice you made.
It has been offered that sensitive types are on the board - look out. I am not sensitive, I am simply observing that it does not help things. You want a place for people to feel free to participate, you want to see a growing unification of political effort through CalGuns - then the attitudes here need to be helpful ones, not whatever was seen in this thread.
The senior members will determine if this is a place where people want to come and participate or not. They need to work with the admins to flush out the people who insist on soliciting felonies, but it needs to be done in a manner that is constructive to the overall growth of the group. Or not - your call.
grammaton76
10-10-2006, 12:54 PM
Felony or not, the flame war's gotten out of hands. The language filters are here for a reason, and if you can't keep the language out of it, the thread's getting locked. End of discussion.
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