PDA

View Full Version : Calguns Questions


Kestryll
10-06-2006, 11:19 AM
Hello all!
I have been meaning to write this post for a while now but life keeps getting in the way.

Over the past few months there have been some changes on the forum as everyone is aware of. There was some uproar, discontent and confusion over these changes. Some people felt the changes so dramatically impacted things that they didn't want to stay around. Others felt that the changes were a good thing and started posting again. Many people just ignored the changes and kept on posting and reading as usual.

I'd like to address some of the changes that have been made and then ask a question.

The one people seem to notice first is the loss of the For Sale forums. I know some consider the loss of these forums to severely limit the functionality of Calguns. I personally miss these forums just for the browsing potential, I suspect my Wife is happy they are gone ;). I honestly can't say what the future holds for this issue. Right now I don't see any move to restore the For Sale forums in the immediate future. This may change in the future but I don't want to offer any false hope right now. There are alternatives however.
California Gun Exchange has just started and looks like it will be a nice dedicated site. http://www.californiagunexchange.com/classifieds.cgi
There is also the Yahoo group calgunsales that has been up for a bit and working nicely. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calgunsale/

Another 'hot issue' of late has been the Word Filters. Much has been made of these filters and the deeper meaning of their use. Allow me to clarify a bit.
As of now there are two names with a couple of common derivatives and four blatant curse words on the filter list. That's it. Nothing else. The curse words are self-explanatory, foul language has never been acceptable here. The names are there because of the postings that happened awhile ago; we all pretty much know the story. Some have speculated that the DOJ MIBs got to the owner of Calguns, others have guessed it was a preemptive move to prevent MIB involvement and some have thought it is just a matter of good taste not to make such comments. At this point in the game the reason is irrelevant, we've been living with it for months and we really haven't lost any ability to communicate or plan events such as the August meeting. This may all become even more moot in the near future with the changes in laws and staff in the AG's office.
I can't really see where these few items on the filter list can be that detrimental, some may even be a non-issue soon. But I do have two requests. Recently there has been a bit of an upsurge in the use of clever way around the name filters. Please don't do that. Not only does it make more work for the Mods and myself editing posts but it's also a matter of respect for the board and it's owner.
Also, since I've mentioned the limited amount of foul language that is actually filtered out some may try to find which words are filtered and others that are not. Please do not do this. I would hate to regret having shared this info. Any attempts to play with the foul language filters will be meet with being banned for a period of time depending on what is posted. Not only that when you return to the forum your new screen name will be 'Princess Penelope', your avatar will be Strawberry Shortcake and your sig line will be a long dissertation on why you like lilacs. Unless you are female in which case you new name will simply be 'Clyde'.

Some of you are probably upset that I did not mention gunscal.com in the section on the For Sale forums. I wanted to address this in it's own section.
Some seem to see gunscal as just a large For Sale forum, some see it as fixing all that is 'wrong' with Calguns and some just see it as another forum to post on. Unfortunately I also see someone over there has felt the need to post my question ahead of me. There seems to be a mindset that there can only be one such forum and that people must pick one to have allegiance too. This is sad given that there is so much overlap in membership and ideals, the two forums really are sides of a coin. I suspect some will take offense to that statement but it does seem to be the truth. In the end all I can give is my opinion, there is no reason to consider the two forums Ďcompetitiveí or to be in opposition.

Now for the question I mention so very many words ago.

Calguns is the product of Ramonís ideas and rules but it is also the results of several years of input from itís members. Both elements work together to make the forum better. We have shown that we can be a powerful force when focused, letís put that focus on us for a moment. Every member who has posted and contributed has helped to shape Calguns and continues to do so.
Because of this I want your input as members as to what can make Calguns a better place. Keeping in mind that we have to work within the rules as they are now and respect the wishes of the Owner what do you think Calguns can be better at? What makes Calguns feel like home? What doesnít? What would you like to see more of, keeping in mind our limits?
I do want this to be as polite, courteous and respectful as possible but I also want your honest input.
Some of you may have issues with me as a Mod or admin or with another Mod, Iíd like to hear about that as well. For transparency any issues with me individually can be posted here as long as they are civil and courteous. Unless another Mod posts such a statement please limit these issues to PMs to me only.

I canít guarantee that what is suggested will happen but I can say I will read every post and give it full and equal thought and consideration.
Kest

ohsmily
10-06-2006, 11:38 AM
Great forum...

One suggestion: perhaps some area-specific event forums would be useful. For example "events for san diego" forum, or "events for OC" forum where people could post "hey guys, going shooting at X range this weekend, anyone want to join me?"...OR..."there is a range cleanup this weekend in OC, who can come and help"...

mailman
10-06-2006, 11:43 AM
Many people just ignored the changes and kept on posting and reading as usual.


That's me, I friggin love this place! :p :D





P.s. GOOD POST!


.

rkt88edmo
10-06-2006, 11:56 AM
Let the members chase out idiots. :)

Don't chase out and ban good members. :(

Don't make idiots mods. :confused:

Bringing back the FS would be nice :p

50ae
10-06-2006, 11:58 AM
I still would like the for sale/trade section back, at least for accessories. Their are a lot of us who would like to openly trade online here and what better place than where everyone is already.

Fjold
10-06-2006, 12:00 PM
No disrespect intended but your post while interesting is less than informative much of the speculation and conspiracy theory being batted around is not the 'what' that happened, but the 'why'.

Word filters, etc. are not important to me because I don't use that type of language and I do not talk about individual people in a derogatory manner.

In the case of the "For Sale" forums no one has ever officially addressed why they are no longer here, all we've seen is innuendo and rumors but I guess we'll never get that information (not that anyone here has to provide it).

But, IMHO opinion it gave a reason for some of the loud and obnoxious minority to sow discontent.

Kestryll
10-06-2006, 12:42 PM
Let the members chase out idiots. :)
An idiot handled well becomes a good member. Of course there are exceptions.. maybe a specified season with 'bag limits'

Don't chase out and ban good members. :(
As far as I am concerned the only reason to ban someone is blatant violations of the rules. Or for spamming from Eastern Europe.

Don't make idiots mods. :confused:
This is the kind of comment I'd like PMs about with more info. What is wrong and why?

Bringing back the FS would be nice :p
Yeah, it would, buutt....


No disrespect intended but your post while interesting is less than informative much of the speculation and conspiracy theory being batted around is not the 'what' that happened, but the 'why'.
I specifically did not address the 'why' of these issues for a few reasons.
In some cases I just flat don't know, Ramon has set the rules down and I accept it at that. In other's the why is irrelevant and finally in a few very small points it is not my info to share. Unfortunately no matter what info is given some will always suspect some dire plot or threat. Frankly I am trying to address the rules we now have and how to work within them to make this place even better. Dwelling on what can not be changed (That is not a 'final pronouncement' just a turn of a phrase) does not help the future in my mind.

Word filters, etc. are not important to me because I don't use that type of language and I do not talk about individual people in a derogatory manner.

In the case of the "For Sale" forums no one has ever officially addressed why they are no longer here, all we've seen is innuendo and rumors but I guess we'll never get that information (not that anyone here has to provide it).
Unfortunately I suspect that for the foreseeable future the info we have will have to suffice. Of course having said that things could change tomorrow but I doubt it.

But, IMHO opinion it gave a reason for some of the loud and obnoxious minority to sow discontent.
I have no doubt that you are correct in this statement


I like the 'Event's Forum' idea, I'll have to see what the bandwidth allowances are and if it can work but it's a good idea!

xenophobe
10-06-2006, 12:59 PM
Not only that when you return to the forum your new screen name will be 'Princess Penelope', your avatar will be Strawberry Shortcake and your sig line will be a long dissertation on why you like lilacs. Unless you are female in which case you new name will simply be 'Clyde'.


I recently left a board I had been a long standing member of with over 10,000 posts in a little less than 6 years, for something identical, though the other board was a little more rude than that. Seeing the administration condone such immature punishment, then punish other people for attacking or slandering users, or just being silly/stupid really sets me off.

I would like to see the staff act as staff and not just regular users taking advantage of the fact that they're moderators or administration.

As for your other issues, I won't address them because I don't see that anything will change, nor are you asking for comments regarding the things you've already brought up. Things are how they are, and I don't see anything in particular that could be changed for the better.

Perhaps you could turn this into a private board and close off public, unregistered viewing. This would limit growth, keep content off search engines, and generally accomplish what Ramon wanted with this board. It's apparent that he does not want this board to grow larger, and restricting access is a good start.

FatKatMatt
10-06-2006, 1:06 PM
The fact that I can't post for sale stuff was a little annoying, but this is overall a very good forum.

Kestryll
10-06-2006, 1:10 PM
Xenophobe,

I was hoping the intended 'humor only' aspect of that part would be apparent but realizing that there are boards where that could happen perhaps it is best to clarify.

As for the rest, yes, things are as they are but that does not mean there isn't room to move or improve. Calguns is for the most part what Ramon wanted and growth and change is inevitable even within that framework.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I respectfully disagree, Calguns can grow and get even better and still honor the wishes of it's owner.
One of the beauties of this site is that you don't have to agree with my opinion either! :)

adamsreeftank
10-06-2006, 4:16 PM
I'd like to suggest a forum called "spot the fed" where we out suspect posts and posters.:D

Seriously, I regret that changes were considered neccessary for two reasons. First, the group buys were an historic event in the history of CA gun rights. It is a shame that their posts were removed. Part of the historical record has been erased for unknown reasons and that is a loss. Second, as the recent involvment with the NRA and the votes in congress have shown, this board has become something of a political force. The fact that the names of certain individuals that are key players in our gun rights are censored does not give a very positive impression to those who may not know the history.

That being said, this is still a great forum and appreciate all that Ramon, the admins and the other posters have done for the 2nd ammendment in CA.

CaMakarovnik
10-06-2006, 6:27 PM
The forum threads provide social interaction, advice and provide a place to ask questions as well as vent, spew and get in a few seconds toward our "15 minutes of fame".

To me, there feels to be a lack of long-term content. Great information is rapidly lost in forum threads, and the main page (how many members actually know there is a main page?) is showing a legislative alert posted in June.

Separate from the forums, I'd appreciate member written, approved by Ramon/mods, available for long period, informative content like:

How-tos: with some text and digital photos, explanations to field strip, completely take down and reassemble; making your own version of CLP; refinishing (wood and reblueing, etc.); cosmoline removal (for the C&R crowd); reloading. I'm positive this is a completely incomplete list of skills present today in the membership.

Reviews of: ranges; legal weapons by real owners, not magazine writing shills; gun related books/gunsmithing videos. Opinions are rarely in short supply here.

Food for thought - this would be a BIG commitment and probably technically difficult or bandwidth intensive, but if doable, would make the forum of even more value to the members.

I'm much more of a lurker than a poster, but thanks for the chance to contribute.

C.G.
10-06-2006, 6:34 PM
Personally I think Calguns right now is better than it was five or six months ago (but not as good as a year ago, with time it may get there and maybe even get better), in spite of not having the For Sale forum (which I do miss).

cnyankee
10-06-2006, 8:54 PM
ive only been a member for a little over 6 months but i like this board, its a lot better than THR..half the posts there just slam us that ive here. its help me stay legal with all bad cali laws. i have learned a lot.

as for improving it i agree that regional event happenings would be a good thing...also there was a post a whie ago about possibly having a monthly auction to help raise momey for this board with wonderful firearms prizes....i never found out if it was feasible but if we could do that it would make the board better.
JMHO

hoffmang
10-06-2006, 10:10 PM
I feel that you are spinning the two names on the word filter list.

Its not just that you can't use their names, it is that you really can't say anything that may not be flattering to them - even if it is on topic. I've had posts edited that did not say anything deragatory or nonfactual or off topic about IC. Those sorts of administrative decisions place your statements about those two filter choices in a slightly different light.

-Gene

Kestryll
10-06-2006, 11:23 PM
I feel that you are spinning the two names on the word filter list.
Its not just that you can't use their names, it is that you really can't say anything that may not be flattering to them - even if it is on topic. I've had posts edited that did not say anything deragatory or nonfactual or off topic about IC. Those sorts of administrative decisions place your statements about those two filter choices in a slightly different light.

-Gene

Spinning? I don't think I'm quite that adept at public manipulation but thank you for the vote of confidence.

You are right to a degree, you can not say anything rude, insulting or unflattering about State employees. This has been a part of the rules since the names were added to the word filter and should be well known.
In much the same manner addressing a fellow board member in these fashion will result in editing as well.
I'm not sure what light you see my statements being in other than stating that these are the items on the filter list. As has been demonstrated repeatedly over the last few months it is entirely possible to discuss, plan and act as a political entity all without impedence by the word filter or the rules.

Regardless of the word filters, rude, disrespectful or diparaging comments, nicknames and such would still not be allowed. If only from a standpoint of courtesy and civility. As I have asked before, what do these type of comments gain us other then furthering the negative impression the anti-gunner wish to push on to us?

adamsreeftank
10-07-2006, 1:52 AM
... you can not say anything rude, insulting or unflattering about State employees. ...

Wow, is that the unspoken rule?

I had no idea. I always figured as long as it wasn't libelous or illegal, then it was OK.

I try not to be rude, and I don't see much use in throwing insults, but to not be able so say anything unflattering about someone who is creating laws that affect me personally seems a bit restrictive. If I say that someone has said something in error or made a factual mistake or has based a decision on a personal bias, would that be considered unflattering?

I also find it odd that when discussing a document that is in the public domain, we can not refer to the author by name.

I would imagine that Ramon probably feels the same way, and some pretty heavy heat must have come down on him to make the changes.

xenophobe
10-07-2006, 1:58 AM
I was hoping the intended 'humor only' aspect of that part would be apparent but realizing that there are boards where that could happen perhaps it is best to clarify.

Yes, it's humorous, but after the first time or two it's not funny, and a few times later, it's just unprofessional, in my opinion. I would just prefer to see the user title changed to "banned" and let it be done with, but that's not my call here.


As for the rest, yes, things are as they are but that does not mean there isn't room to move or improve. Calguns is for the most part what Ramon wanted and growth and change is inevitable even within that framework.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I respectfully disagree, Calguns can grow and get even better and still honor the wishes of it's owner.
One of the beauties of this site is that you don't have to agree with my opinion either! :)

That's not the way I feel. I am only reitierating the feeling I got from Ramon's "I miss old times" thread, and somewhat recent actions to limit the growth of the board. I don't agree dropping the sales forums, though I completely understand how much they need to be moderated.

My initial post was just reflecting off what Ramon seems to have wanted for the direction of the board, which the off-list spur was exactly the opposite of what he had wanted. When a board grows, things change, and this particular change was something it seemed that he did not want. So my comments were suggested with this goal in mind.

Anyways, as to CaMakarovnik's post, is there any way we could have an "Archives" folder, so users can ask mods to put particularly useful threads in there for viewing after such threads have run it's course?

M. Sage
10-07-2006, 8:27 AM
Not much to add here, except a few "+1"s.

I really like the idea of the regional events and tech sections.

Anyways, as to CaMakarovnik's post, is there any way we could have an "Archives" folder, so users can ask mods to put particularly useful threads in there for viewing after such threads have run it's course?

I agree. It's annoying looking for "that one post" and having it gone.

mow
10-07-2006, 8:54 AM
edited because I really don't care any more.:p

hoffmang
10-07-2006, 11:39 AM
Kestryll,

I take back my comment on you spinning - you are just uninformed. The post that I completely disagree with its editing wasn't edited by you. I feel special to say that it was edited by Ramon himself.

You are however being disingenious. Attacking the credibility of the public officials in question when those attacks are factual is well within the bounds of both good taste and our best interest. Instead you're advocating that we never use teeth in our speech. Reasonable people can disagree, but the parallel is the internal debate in the Civil Rights movement about the proper place for force and resistance. Here we're just talking about deriding public officials in the classic verbal version of Tar and Feathering.

I understand that you guys have made the autocratic call that we can't use those tools here. Just don't be crass about claiming that its a fait accompli and already been defended elsewhere by any Admin.

-Gene

mow
10-07-2006, 11:54 AM
Uh, what he ^^^ said :)

Satex
10-08-2006, 3:00 PM
Admins and members,
I LOVE THIS FORUM!
This forum serves California gun lovers of any kind.
I think that the calsgun situation is sad, as we are dividing ourselves and helping the others conquer us. We need to be unified.
As far as the filters: I enjoy this being a civil place. A place where young and old can come to share their love of guns. Many threads crossed the lines of good taste. I believe that people should not say things on the internet they wouldn't say to a person in his face.
I hope this forum stays they great forum it is, and I think that 99.9% of the folks here are great, the 0.1% should work on their net-tittude.
All the best to 100% of yall's

CSkyhawk72
10-08-2006, 11:31 PM
A big THANK YOU to Kestryll for taking over the board. :)

You're one of the most level-headed and courteous members I've ever encountered here. As for an idea... how about an "Ammo Locker" forum? It would be a great place for people to discuss what we feed our guns- what works best, stuff to avoid, and a place reloaders can share info.

69Mach1
10-09-2006, 9:18 AM
Please increase the number of photos you can post to at least 6, or more, per post.

Kestryll
10-09-2006, 1:52 PM
Second, I had been planning to give you my honest opinion on how Calguns has been administered in the last few months, and even if I don't use swearwords, my highly negative opinion would probably have caused my account to be closed, or at least my post to be deleted. So it would have accomplished nothing, other than causing grief for me.
Just hitting the high points since I'm at work ;)
Unless you broke a rule I would not have done anything. The idea behind this post was to get an idea of where we were and where we wanted to go. This includes the negative too. If all you hear is the praise and you will never grow.

Here is my proposal: In a few week, when the waves of the transition have calmed, ask the question again: what do people see as the value of Calguns, and in what fashion can it be changed to serve the various stakeholders better. It is not just about reopening the for-sale forums. In reality, those are an important symptom of a much more important underlying mindset.

I'm looking forward to years of Calguns, and it getting better and better.

I actually was planning to resubmit this question after the current upheaval which is why I wanted to address your point above. The more honest the opinion the better picture we have.

Spawn_X
10-09-2006, 2:09 PM
I think Kestryll will make a great admin. I don't think the for sale forum is a big deal, because California seems to have needed a central listing place anyway. The reason I stuck to the forum was the content, the way it was moderated (a nice line between harsh and joking around), the desire of the forum's members to do something about gun laws, and did I mention content?

hoffmang
10-09-2006, 4:29 PM
As I've been a bit harsh on certain topics, I just want to echo that the right time to talk about this stuff is after the hand off is complete. I also want to state that Kestryll has my full support going forward.

-Gene

rod
10-10-2006, 5:33 AM
I really like CalGuns and I don't mind the changes. To me, it's been a source of information and a rallying place to fight the laws that... well, need to be fought. As long as that doesn't change, I'll be a happy camper.

PLINK
10-10-2006, 11:44 PM
So Kestryll are you the new owner of Calguns? Or does Ramon still own it and you are the main Admin? Or is the transition level not yet completed/ decided yet? Just wondering.

Kestryll
10-11-2006, 8:15 PM
The transition has not happened yet but we are moving forward, I will be the owner when we are finished.

Glasshat
10-12-2006, 9:34 AM
First of all, thank you for asking for our opinon.

The word filters are okay with me. If a few people need help formulating a sentence without using foul language to make their point, the filter is doing it's job. Keep it turned on.

The classified section is nice but not required. Like you said, there are many other sites that offer that service and it doesn't enhance the Calguns.net experience much if any.

The goal of Calguns.net should be publicized more often. Is it to fight the good fight for 2A in California? To be a network for gun nuts to BS each other? To be a how-to-do-it forum? Or some comination of all these? Tell members what YOU plan for the site and the whiners can go whine somewhere else.

luvtolean
10-15-2006, 7:35 PM
I don't have any problems (other than I'd like to see the picture thing I mentioned in suggestions) but would like to see the for sale section back.

As has been mentioned before, CA has unique requirements around the weapons we sell, along with the goods.

If you aren't able to keep up with the policing of illegal ads, just add a mod or two to help you.

dwtt
10-20-2006, 6:41 PM
I don't have any problems with the word filters. I do think the forsale section should be returned, but not for the convenience of members. Having a CA oriented for sale forum will help keep used guns not on the approved list from being sold out of state and that will generally be a good thing. Of course I might be complete wrong on this, so if anyone has info to show otherwise, they are welcome to present it.
One thing I think we can do better is to get some of the more sarcastic members to take it easy on new comers. Someone who's a newcomer to Calguns might not be new to guns or CA and don't need any discouragement here.