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Creeping Incrementalism
10-04-2006, 4:06 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/10/04/EDG6PKDUJP1.DTL

THREE FATAL shootings on school campuses in a single week should prompt deep national soul-searching about what could be done to make sure horrific crimes such as these never happen again.

In the past, these sort of shootings might have triggered intense discussion about the need for stricter gun-control laws.

Yet, it is an indication of how successful the National Rifle Association and other anti-gun-control forces have been in removing the issue of gun control from the national political agenda -- and getting our political leaders to acquiesce to their wishes.

We know that gun-control laws on their own won't eliminate gun violence.

But the question has to be asked: How it is possible that a disturbed man in Pennsylvania can get hold of a shotgun, a rifle and a semiautomatic handgun, along with 600 rounds of ammunition -- then use them to kill five defenseless schoolgirls?

The question has to be asked: How can guns flow through East Oakland, West Oakland, Richmond's Iron Triangle and Bayview-Hunters Point in San Francisco without any legal barriers?

President Bush's response? Convene yet another conference.

Incredibly, the conference won't focus on how to get guns out of the hands of criminals, but will strategize on how to improve school safety.

"Our schoolchildren should never fear their safety when they enter a classroom," he said Tuesday. He spoke from Stockton, which the president may not have known was the site of one of the worst school shootings in U.S. history. In 1989, 5 students were killed and 29 wounded at an elementary school.

Mr. President, the only way to make classrooms safe would be to turn every school in America into an armed fortress -- an impossible task. Another approach might be to figure how to get guns out of the hands of insane, depraved individuals, who acquire guns as easily as they can buy a six-pack.

An indication of our wayward national priorities can be found in a bill, HR5092, approved by the Republican-controlled House of Representatives last week. The bill, a legislative priority of the NRA, would make it far more difficult for federal agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to crack down on gun dealers who violate federal gun laws.

Lawmakers somehow found time to pass this irresponsible bill while failing to vote on 10 out of 12 appropriations bill needed to fund the federal government in the new fiscal year, which began on Oct. 1.

Until the nation gets serious about gun violence, bullets will continue to take lives, whether on school campuses or in neighborhoods near where we live. What's needed is action -- not another conference.

leelaw
10-04-2006, 4:13 PM
"Incredibly, the conference won't focus on how to get guns out of the hands of criminals, but will strategize on how to improve school safety."

Incredibly, I bet your suggestions would target law-abiding citizens, and not criminals. But I sure bet you'll feel good about it.

Joe
10-04-2006, 4:39 PM
"Incredibly, the conference won't focus on how to get guns out of the hands of criminals, but will strategize on how to improve school safety."

Incredibly, I bet your suggestions would target law-abiding citizens, and not criminals. But I sure bet you'll feel good about it.

hahahahaha

formerTexan
10-04-2006, 4:46 PM
I find it interesting that you can't email a reply back to the author of this opinion piece. Heck there is no author listed at all. I guess this is the "opinion" of the whole editorial board? One wonders why people don't read or buy newspapers anymore.

Dont Tread on Me
10-04-2006, 4:47 PM
"The question has to be asked: How can guns flow through East Oakland, West Oakland, Richmond's Iron Triangle and Bayview-Hunters Point in San Francisco without any legal barriers?"

The idiot missed the point. There are plenty of law prohibiting felons from having guns. It is more of an enforcement problems.

luvtolean
10-04-2006, 4:48 PM
The better question is, why do these people seek to kill others?

The tool they use is purely semantics.

M. Sage
10-04-2006, 5:18 PM
Incredibly, the conference won't focus on how to get guns out of the hands of criminals, but will strategize on how to improve school safety.

Gee, silly me. Here I've been making sure to keep up on the fire safety in my house when all I had to do was ask my neighbors to get rid of their matches and lighters. Who cares if I store a bunch of five-gallon containers of gasoline in my living room - lying atop a bunch of loose, oily rags and newspapers - as long as my neighbors all agree not to have anything that can light it... then I'm safe, right? :rolleyes:

Right?

PIRATE14
10-04-2006, 5:26 PM
The better question is, why do these people seek to kill others?

The tool they use is purely semantics.

Dude there you go thinking again...........:D

M. Sage
10-04-2006, 5:28 PM
Dude there you go thinking again...........:D

Yeah, really. We're in CALIFORNIA, we're not supposed to think or (especially) use logic.

Go smoke some "medical" pot and surf or something....

DSA_FAL
10-04-2006, 10:33 PM
We know that gun-control laws on their own won't eliminate gun violence.

I love how they admit that gun control laws don't do what they hope they would do yet they spend the rest of the article trying to justify gun control anyway. That is the definition of a liberal.

bg
10-04-2006, 10:46 PM
The question has to be asked: How can guns flow through East Oakland, West Oakland, Richmond's Iron Triangle and Bayview-Hunters Point in San Francisco without any legal barriers?
Hmm. Wonder why they aren't asking Mayor Brown
this..After all he's running for the top cop spot of the
state. If he doesn't even know how things run in his
city, how's he even going to know how to manage
the states laws and business ? :rolleyes:

EvolutionGSR
10-04-2006, 11:05 PM
The question has to be asked: How can guns flow through East Oakland, West Oakland, Richmond's Iron Triangle and Bayview-Hunters Point in San Francisco without any legal barriers?


Is he suggesting that we should stop traffic in order to randomly search cars for guns? Is an officer supposed to be able to look at a car and driver and say that they have reason to believe that that person has a gun in their car to do a stop and search?

How about instead we do random stops and check people's documentation instead. That would do us a lot more good.

LeoC
10-05-2006, 5:07 AM
But the question has to be asked: How it is possible that a disturbed man in Pennsylvania can get hold of a shotgun, a rifle and a semiautomatic handgun, along with 600 rounds of ammunition -- then use them to kill five defenseless schoolgirls?


The question SHOULD be "why were the 5 schoolgirls defenseless?" :eek:

Wulf
10-05-2006, 6:15 AM
The question SHOULD be "why were the 5 schoolgirls defenseless?" :eek:

Cause the liberals that run the school system enjoy the illusory absence of weapons more than the actual presence of security.

paradox
10-05-2006, 7:18 AM
Cause the liberals that run the school system enjoy the illusory absence of weapons more than the actual presence of security.

Wow, the term 'liberal' has been so distorted that now even the Amish are labeled liberal. Is it possible to be more conservative than the Amish? Does that mean we are all liberal now?

JeffCinSac
10-05-2006, 7:31 AM
QUOTE

"But the question has to be asked: How it is possible that a disturbed man in Pennsylvania can get hold of a shotgun, a rifle and a semiautomatic handgun, along with 600 rounds of ammunition -- then use them to kill five defenseless schoolgirls?"

The answer is simple - he had no criminal record and no record of previous mental disturbance that I'm aware of. In short, there was no reason to deny him a gun purchase. This was an otherwise normal dude who went crazy. The only way to have prevented this through "gun-control" would be to deny ANYONE, even those of us with spotless records, the ability to purchase ANY gun. Remember that he went into the school with not only an evil pistol, but also, if I remember correctly, a bolt-action rifle and a non-tactical shotgun, not to mention a stun-gun and materials to barricade himself in the school. Even "gun-control" advocates normally concede that they're not after hunting rifles and shotguns, at least not yet. So, given that set of circumstances, please explain to me how further "gun-control" would have done anything here?

And, by the way, the SF Chron's description of the House ATF reform bill is misleading. Surprise.

-J

Grakken
10-05-2006, 7:42 AM
"Mr. President, the only way to make classrooms safe would be to turn every school in America into an armed fortress -- an impossible task. Another approach might be to figure how to get guns out of the hands of insane, depraved individuals, who acquire guns as easily as they can buy a six-pack."






I might be moving to San Fran within the year. I'm doomed.

paradox
10-05-2006, 8:01 AM
Being a schoolteacher should be "good cause" in any jurisdiction for a CCW permit.

IPSICK
10-05-2006, 8:07 AM
I might be moving to San Fran within the year. I'm doomed.

There are other living options outside of SF city. If you work in the city taking public transit to work will let you catch up on all your gun magazine reading and reasearch into gun legislation.:)

Screehopper
10-05-2006, 8:35 AM
Being a schoolteacher should be "good cause" in any jurisdiction for a CCW permit.

I support your reasoning.

Wulf
10-05-2006, 11:19 AM
Wow, the term 'liberal' has been so distorted that now even the Amish are labeled liberal.

Yes, to the extent that they share with liberals the idea that kids in a school are not a target worth defending in a proactive fashion. I suppose the only difference in the midset is that that the Amish were depending on god and the secular liberals depend on the good karma of being defensless to keep them safe.

luvtolean
10-05-2006, 11:32 AM
Yes, to the extent that they share with liberals the idea that kids in a school are not a target worth defending in a proactive fashion.

"Liberals" want their kids to be safe and are willing to fight for it. Some believe it should be with a gun, others don't.

jumbopanda
10-05-2006, 1:48 PM
But the question has to be asked: How it is possible that a disturbed man in Pennsylvania can get hold of a shotgun, a rifle and a semiautomatic handgun, along with 600 rounds of ammunition

mind reading devices haven't been invented yet, sorry. and even if they have, all the guy would have to do is wear a tinfoil helmet and no one would know how psycho is was :p

Outlaw Josey Wales
10-05-2006, 2:11 PM
Being a schoolteacher should be "good cause" in any jurisdiction for a CCW permit.


Jeff Cooper's answer to the armed sociopath was the armed citizen! With all of the violence in today's world schools are certainly no sanctuary.

While the recent school shootings may be fodder for proponents of more gun control, the reverse is just as true.

Charliegone
10-05-2006, 8:09 PM
For the sake of our pro-gun liberal friends, lets refer to people for more gun control as "anti-gunners" or something of that sort.:D

Jarhead4
10-05-2006, 8:40 PM
“We know that gun-control laws on their own won't eliminate gun violence.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but No law will protect you from Gun Violence. Look at Japan. They have very low gun violence, but all guns are ban their. Also, haven’t we been saying for decades now that gun control doesn’t work?

“But the question has to be asked: How it is possible that a disturbed man in Pennsylvania can get hold of a shotgun, a rifle and a semiautomatic handgun, along with 600 rounds of ammunition -- then use them to kill five defenseless schoolgirls?”

How did you know that he was disturbed before the attacks? Are you going to have psychological evaluations performed on everyone? I like to see what the ACLU would think of that.

The only way to be safe is to be well prepared. Sometimes that means being well trained and well armed. It is time that we stop making ourselves victims. The right of self-defense is a natural law. Why deny us the tools that we could use to defend ourselves?

I'm off my soap box now.

The Soup Nazi
10-05-2006, 8:42 PM
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but No law will protect you from Gun Violence. Look at Japan. They have very low gun violence, but all guns are ban their. Also, haven’t we been saying for decades now that gun control doesn’t work?

It isn't just that. The Japanese have a problem with the Yakuza and they're so influential to the point that the Yakuza are like mini-government organizations who are actually to a point tolerated by the official Japanese government. Just imagine if the America government decided to "tolerate" the organized crime groups here.

Jarhead4
10-05-2006, 8:45 PM
It isn't just that. The Japanese have a problem with the Yakuza and they're so influential to the point that the Yakuza are like mini-government organizations who are actually to a point tolerated by the official Japanese government. Just imagine if the America government decided to "tolerate" the organized crime groups here.


Now that is a scary thought!!!

grammaton76
10-06-2006, 12:22 AM
It isn't just that. The Japanese have a problem with the Yakuza and they're so influential to the point that the Yakuza are like mini-government organizations who are actually to a point tolerated by the official Japanese government. Just imagine if the America government decided to "tolerate" the organized crime groups here.

Heh, I held a full-auto AK in Japan. The guy was running an amazingly high end Airsoft and prop-gun store, without a lot of business. I found out the week before I left that he was using that as a front for the real thing - stupid me, I'd been buying actual Airsoft there for a few months. *boggle*

I do have a perfect replica of Robocop's Auto-9 though, down to the OCP Police logo. And a Mossberg bullpup in Airsoft...

Can'thavenuthingood
10-06-2006, 2:05 AM
Are you going to have psychological evaluations performed on everyone? I like to see what the ACLU would think of that.


When it comes to the Second Amendment I think the ACLU would leave this policy alone.

Vick

luvtolean
10-06-2006, 6:30 AM
Are you going to have psychological evaluations performed on everyone? I like to see what the ACLU would think of that.


When it comes to the Second Amendment I think the ACLU would leave this policy alone.

Vick

Sadly I think you are right. If the ACLU took the Second as seriously as the other important amendments, I'd be a proud, card carrying member. They've been "fighting the good fight" against some of the more terrible breaches of personal privacy and freedom the Bush Admin has been doing to us.

From The Embarassing Second Amendment: (http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/embar.html)

"I cannot help but suspect that the best explanation for the absence of the Second Amendment from the legal consciousness of the elite bar, including that component found in the legal academy, [28] is derived from a mixture of sheer opposition to the idea of private ownership of guns and the perhaps subconscious fear that altogether plausible, perhaps even "winning," interpretations of the Second Amendment would present real hurdles to those of us supporting prohibitory regulation."

jerryg1776
10-06-2006, 8:50 AM
"Mr. President, the only way to make classrooms safe would be to turn every school in America into an armed fortress -- an impossible task. Another approach might be to figure how to get guns out of the hands of insane, depraved individuals, who acquire guns as easily as they can buy a six-pack."
I might be moving to San Fran within the year. I'm doomed.

Lets build that wall on the border and fortress up the schools!!! lets make America safer...

matarlegoate
10-06-2006, 6:36 PM
The reason WHY schools are targetted is because the criminals know that they contain thousands of unarmed and defenseless children. I'm sure if criminals knew that every teacher in the school was armed, they wouldn't want to walk into a school with a gun again.

MidnightSon117
10-06-2006, 7:08 PM
Aww, gee...my six-pack has a 10-day waiting period. :(

whatever
10-07-2006, 11:11 AM
Instead of preaching to the choir here, tell 'em what you think over there: http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/submissions/#open

Forever-A-Soldier
10-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Ever wonder why shooting sprees in police stations are so rare? :D

And yet, the antis STILL insist that being unarmed is a safer way to live.

F.A.S. Out

jumbopanda
10-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Sadly I think you are right. If the ACLU took the Second as seriously as the other important amendments, I'd be a proud, card carrying member. They've been "fighting the good fight" against some of the more terrible breaches of personal privacy and freedom the Bush Admin has been doing to us.

From The Embarassing Second Amendment: (http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/embar.html)

"I cannot help but suspect that the best explanation for the absence of the Second Amendment from the legal consciousness of the elite bar, including that component found in the legal academy, [28] is derived from a mixture of sheer opposition to the idea of private ownership of guns and the perhaps subconscious fear that altogether plausible, perhaps even "winning," interpretations of the Second Amendment would present real hurdles to those of us supporting prohibitory regulation."

http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html

:rolleyes:

Richie Rich
10-07-2006, 2:19 PM
Kinda surprises me that a group like the ACLU wouldn't want the support of as many people as it could muster...

Gee, there is only what.... 80,000,000 of us firearms owners in the US.

Naah, we wouldn't add any political clout to a group like that.....

Amazing how a group of people who support the freedoms of people who want to tear down religious symbols, protest funerals, consider a crucifix in a jar of urine to be art and for two men to be married finds the concept of owning firearms "icky" and not worthy of their fight...

Morons.....

leelaw
10-07-2006, 2:57 PM
Kinda surprises me that a group like the ACLU wouldn't want the support of as many people as it could muster...

Gee, there is only what.... 80,000,000 of us firearms owners in the US.

Naah, we wouldn't add any political clout to a group like that.....


There might be 80,000,000 firearm owners, but once you take out the elitists, hunters who are convinced gun laws are not about them, those who own one just because, and those not passionate to the cause... I'd guess around 10,000,000... maybe...

juha_teuvonnen
10-08-2006, 2:51 PM
I know how to make our schools safe. Teachers should be trained in use of firearms, and handguns should be issued to them. I haven't heared of a lunatic marching into a police station and shooting a bunch of people there.

aklover_91
10-08-2006, 8:35 PM
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html

:rolleyes:
sooo.......they're gun grabbers?

M. Sage
10-09-2006, 6:34 PM
Instead of preaching to the choir here, tell 'em what you think over there: http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/submissions/#open

Mine even got printed. :D

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/06/EDG6SLJ0C614.DTL&hw=michael+sage&sn=001&sc=1000

I'll leave it to you guys to figure out which. Not the BEST letter, I'll admit...

mow
10-09-2006, 7:09 PM
Were you being sarcastic or am I missing something?

Anyway, a big thanks to The Chronicle for its excellent editorial, and I hope you may have started a movement against the NRA.

M. Sage
10-09-2006, 8:56 PM
Hahaha, I hadn't even read below mine.

Sad about that guy being such a moron, though.

bbq_ribs
10-10-2006, 5:41 PM
The reason WHY schools are targetted is because the criminals know that they contain thousands of unarmed and defenseless children. I'm sure if criminals knew that every teacher in the school was armed, they wouldn't want to walk into a school with a gun again.

I also wonder if the media coverage of Columbine and all the post-Columbine anti-gun whining has caused more problems. Seems that several of the recent school shooters have claimed that they were fascinated with Columbine.

bbq_ribs
10-10-2006, 5:43 PM
I know how to make our schools safe. Teachers should be trained in use of firearms, and handguns should be issued to them. I haven't heared of a lunatic marching into a police station and shooting a bunch of people there.

Dude, it just happened a few months ago in Virginia.