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Can'thavenuthingood
10-04-2006, 06:28 AM
Article from UK's Independent. More fodder for President Bush's school violence committee/panel/commission to chew on as well as VPC.
Vick
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1786806.ece
The Big Question: Can America ever be weaned off its love affair with guns?
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
Published: 04 October 2006
Why is US gun culture in the news?

This week's school shootings in Amish country, in which five children died, are just the latest in a seemingly never-ending string of spectacular mass murders to hit the headlines in the United States.

Last week, a gunman in the Colorado Rockies burst into a schoolroom and killed a student before turning his weapon on himself. Seven years ago, we had the bloodbath at Columbine High School. We've had disgruntled ex-employees shooting up their former workplaces, shootings in fast-food restaurants, and a parishioner in Fort Worth, Texas, shooting up his local church.

Each time it happens, a panoply of reasons comes to the fore. Gun-control activists blame the phenomenon largely, if not wholly, on easy access to firearms. Cultural conservatives like to blame Hollywood for its violent movies and video games. Other frequently identified causes are the prevalence of antidepressant prescriptions, the peculiar alienation of new white suburbs and the warp-effect of the media.

Is it about the guns?

There's no question that the gun culture - stemming back to the frontier spirit of the 19th century and justified, at least by gun-ownership advocates, by the Second Amendment of the Constitution - plays a major role in perpetuating the high numbers of violent deaths.

In the US, there are roughly 17,000 murders a year, of which about 15,000 are committed with firearms. By contrast, Britain, Australia and Canada combined see fewer than 350 gun-related murders each year. And it's not just about murder. The non-gun-related suicide rate in the US is consistent with the rest of the developed world. Factor in firearms, and the rate is suddenly twice as high as the rest of the developed world.

Children are affected particularly hard. An American youth is murdered with a firearm every four and a half hours on average. And an American youth commits suicide with a firearm every eight hours. It's worth remembering that many of the most spectacular mass murders of recent years were really suicides, with the perpetrators choosing to take a few other people with them while they were at it. Gun-control advocates argue they manage to carry out their murderous fantasies only because firearms give them the means to do so.

Why is gun control so ineffective?

Any adult with a clean criminal record can buy a gun in the US with relative ease. Gun shops and dealers will conduct mandatory background checks - introduced under the 1993 Brady bill, named after the White House Press Secretary James Brady, who was hit and disabled during an assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. But dealers at gun shows - popular throughout the heartland - are exempt from the federal law, making it easy for criminals or children to lay their hands on whatever they want. The semi-automatic TEC-9 machine pistols used by Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine were bought at a Colorado gun show.

Federal law, more generally, is subject to constant pressure from the National Rifle Association, the powerful gun-ownership lobby group, which has the influence to run elected officials out of office if they dare to challenge its agenda. That explains why a nationwide ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, introduced during the Clinton administration, was allowed to expire on the eve of the 2004 presidential election - despite the abiding fear of al-Qa'ida sleeper cells possibly operating in the US and planning another attack. Not only did John Kerry, the Democratic candidate, not feel able to use this as a campaign issue against President Bush. He felt obliged to tout his own gun-loving bona fides for fear of losing key swing states such as Pennsylvania.

State by state, gun-control laws vary widely. California is relatively strict. Colorado closed the "gun-show loophole" in the wake of Columbine, and Oregon has followed suit. Seven states have assault weapon bans, and 19 have laws making it a crime for gun owners to leave weapons in places where they might fall into the hands of a child. Pennsylvania, with its hunting and shooting traditions (the movie The Deerhunter was set there), has one of the worst gun-control regimes. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence gave Pennsylvania a D+ grade last year.

What about the broader culture?

Donald Sutherland, the Canadian-born actor, once pointed out it is almost as easy to buy a gun in Canada as it is in the US, yet the incidence of gun-related deaths in Canada is dramatically lower. He argued that both countries have a frontier spirit, only that the iconic figure of the Canadian West is the Mountie - a law officer - while the iconic figure of the American West is the outlaw. Gangsters and crime syndicates have flourished in the US, and Hollywood has certainly done its bit to glamourise the empowerment of a man wielding a firearm.

Even the most ardent gun-control advocates will acknowledge there is more going on than just access to deadly weaponry. Tom Mauser, who lost a son in the Columbine shootings, blames several other factors. He sees a latent violence in the culture, spanning everything from television shows to the uncompromising rhetoric of talk-radio to the eruption of road rage. He also worries about alienation among young people, poor parental oversight and inadequate communication between school authority figures and students - especially in a suburban high school such as Columbine.

What role does the media play?

Park Dietz, perhaps America's foremost criminal profiler, believes saturation media coverage of one mass murder will lead, almost inevitably, to another mass murder within a couple of weeks. He told The Independent recently: "It's not that the news coverage made the person paranoid, or armed, or suicidally depressed. But you've got to imagine this small number of people sitting at home, with guns on their lap and a hitlist in their mind. They feel willing to die. "When they watch the coverage of a school shooting or a workplace mass murder, it takes only one or two of them to say - 'that guy is just like me, that's the solution to my problem, that's what I'll do tomorrow'."

The Amish country murders bear a disconcerting similarity to last week's shootings in Bailey, Colorado. In both cases, the gunman released the boys in the room and attacked the girls. Coincidence? Perhaps more a case of one high-profile event triggering another.

Screehopper
10-04-2006, 08:20 AM
Yet in Switzerland, all males age 20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home leading to high gun ownership in Switzerland, yet they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

Mesa Tactical
10-04-2006, 08:40 AM
My letter to the LA-based author of the article:

Dear Mr Gumbel,

Today I read your article "Can America ever be weaned off its love affair with guns?" for the British daily The Independent at:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1786806.ece

As someone who shares many of your political positions, I feel obliged to suggest to you that with regard to the gun control debate you seemed to have drawn a number of highly dubious conclusions from the few facts you present in the article. If you are interested, I would be happy to help clarify for you the issues behind the controversy, from a position I am confident you have not yet closely reviewed.

I ask whether you are interested because in fact what is not widely reported is that the gun control dispute is merely another battlefield in America's dreary Culture Wars, in which "Conservatives" and "Progressives" draw up often arbitrary positions and then lay into one another. The history of gun control in California, for example, spotlights the cynical disregard its proponents have for actual public safety, compared to the usefulness of gun control as a stick for beating away at their social and political enemies, while grandstanding shamelessly before their own captive constituencies.

Because of this, I usually qualify my offers of assistance since in many cases I am corresponding with people who truly do not want to know any more about the subject than the little they have already grasped. They are already engaged in the good fight and the last thing a dedicated Culture Warrior wants to hear is enemy propaganda.

I don't know enough about you to determine whether you are just another ideological Culture Warrior or in fact a journalist with a good journalists's keen interest in truly understanding a subject no matter where the effort takes him. So I thought I would ask.

If you are intrigued enough to continue our correspondence, I would also like to invite you to meet me and some friends the third Sunday of this or any other month at Angeles Ranges, a shooting range near Sylmar. This is when the LA Chapter of Pink Pistols meet for purely social group shooting sessions. Pink Pistols is an informal shooting club for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered (GLBT) people, but everyone is welcome. Pink Pistols has also become a bit of a refuge for people, like me, who are Conscientious Objectors in the Culture Wars and prefer to derive our positions based on the realities as we see them (as you seem to do in your coverage of the Middle East and the Bush Administration), rather that the shrill rantings from one or the other of the two main camps.

The third Sunday of the month is also when locals gather at Angeles to shoot their huge .50 BMG rifles, which were recently banned as "assault weapons" by the California Legislature and Governor. Since more than one prominent politician has declared that only criminals would want to possess these unwieldy weapons, you might get a chance to interview some presumably dangerous people in fairly secure surroundings.

As a progressively inclined businessman (I make gun parts) who has lived overseas (where I managed to procure a French Arab wife), I would very much enjoy a dialogue on gun rights and gun control with an influential progressive voice such as yours. But only if you really want one.

Best regards,


Mitch Barrie

gose
10-04-2006, 08:45 AM
In Sweden we have ~50000 men in the Home guard, with full automatic G3s in their homes, handed to us by the Swedish Army. Considering the population of Sweden, it would be the equivalent of the US Army handing out some 30000 full automatic rifles in the Bay Area alone! Yet, there are almost no issues with these weapons, I'd say maybe one incident / five years, and these are usually along the lines of someone taking out their G3 and firing a mag or two in the air after a few beers...

Wonder when people finally will realize that there are bigger problems than guns in the US than need to be solved...

luvtolean
10-04-2006, 08:46 AM
Great letter Mesa.

I am sure it falls on deaf ears, but no matter.

It is utterly useless to compare gun violence stats between countries. There are so many critical differences, it is a waste of time.

jester
10-04-2006, 09:49 AM
Mesa, please keep us updated to any response from this guy...

chiefcrash
10-04-2006, 09:57 AM
In the US, there are roughly 17,000 murders a year, of which about 15,000 are committed with firearms. By contrast, Britain, Australia and Canada combined see fewer than 350 gun-related murders each year.

ever notice how they always give you the gun-related statistics in places with strict-as-hell countries, but never the TOTAL statistics?

example: australia, britain, and canada combined see fewer than 350 gun-related murders each year. but if they see 100,000 non-gun-related murders, that makes a different point all together, now doesn't it?

milsurplover
10-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Here's an interesting bit of info:

Politicians in Massachusetts have cited the State's tough gun control laws as the reason for its low murder rates. However, the adjacent states of Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont have some of the least stringent gun control laws in the US, yet the first two have lower murder rates than Massachusetts and the murder rates in Vermont are comparable to those in Massachusetts. Murder rates in Boston increased 50% in 2004 over the previous year, while murder rates in Los Angeles, Miami, Washington and many other major cites saw murder rates decline.

M. Sage
10-04-2006, 05:45 PM
LOL @ "Semi-automatic machine pistols."

How can you have a semi-auto machine pistol or semi-auto machine gun? They two terms are mutually exclusive.

Yet another know-nothing idiot opening his friggin' yap.

Dont Tread on Me
10-04-2006, 06:13 PM
"Any adult with a clean criminal record can buy a gun in the US with relative ease"

Oh yea, that's why I moved to a free country where the citizens are trusted.

Take a look here: http://www.murderuk.com/misc/stats.htm. Only 20,000 gun related crimes a year in a country where no adult with a clean record can buy a (real) gun. Looks like gun control works:-(

Note the 172 murders attributed to Harold Shipman (it was close to 250). He was a doctor who enjoyed killing his patients. Just imagine what he would have done if he could have had a rifle with a pistol grip?

Pulsar
10-04-2006, 07:10 PM
Even the most ardent gun-control advocates will acknowledge there is more going on than just access to deadly weaponry. Tom Mauser, who lost a son in the Columbine shootings...


What's the world coming too when a man with that last name is anti-gun? it just seems so wrong.

anothergunnut
10-04-2006, 07:39 PM
Since places like England have relatively few gun murders and the US has many, that must be due to the large number of guns in the US. If this is true, then the rate of homicide via knives should be the same between the two countries since they both have similar number of knives. Of course this is not true, because the populations are different. We have a much more violent culture and we kill more of each other not just with guns, but with knives, fists, cars, etc. We need less gun control so that we can defend ourselves from these predators.

kennisonxgs
10-04-2006, 09:33 PM
I'll support gun control IF they can either keep every single bad guy from getting one or they make ALL guns disappear. Until that happens (not very likely), I'm against gun control.

aklover_91
10-04-2006, 10:09 PM
if all guns disapeared, I'd just build a new one.

tman
10-05-2006, 10:29 AM
Can'thavenuthingood: Nice find, thanks for sharing. I suppose commenting on the ignorance of this article would only be "preaching to the choir".

I will say that I think maybe the proper title for this article would be:

The Big Question: Can America ever be weaned off its love affair with freedom?


Great letter Mesa.

I am sure it falls on deaf ears, but no matter.

It is utterly useless to compare gun violence stats between countries. There are so many critical differences, it is a waste of time.

If that was in response the post directly above you by gose, doesn't his comment still strengthen the argument that guns are not the cause of violence? That seems pretty universal - but, I do understand the the actual causes of crime, is most likely different from place to place.

luvtolean
10-05-2006, 10:43 AM
No it does not strengthen anything.

It is not a statistically relevant comparison.

For every place that has high gun ownership rates and high crime, there is another with low ownership rates and high crime. For every place with high gun ownership rates and low crime there is a low-low.

There are some great papers out there that apply academic, peer reviewed rigor to gun stats, usually done by economists believe it or not, but these stupid stats you see in the news for either side are just that. Stupid. Irrelevant.

Mesa Tactical
10-05-2006, 10:51 AM
Mesa, please keep us updated to any response from this guy...

No response 24 hours later.

zefflyn
10-06-2006, 08:21 PM
Article from UK's Independent. More fodder for President Bush's school violence committee/panel/commission to chew on as well as VPC.
Vick
...
In the US, there are roughly 17,000 murders a year, of which about 15,000 are committed with firearms.

I wonder if he really means murders, or if he actually means homicides. Think he knows the difference?

By pure coincidence, I had just been looking at the FBI's crime data, and they report about 16,000 murders a year, but only about 9,000 of them involve firearms.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nmurder03.html

Too bad the journalist didn't give his "source."

luvtolean
10-07-2006, 07:04 AM
Here are some gun stats I have:

In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:

16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined


They are from an anti-gun site I don't want to link to or mention, so as to avoid emasculating their google rating. :D

BTW, this is a perfect example of how people love to lie with gun stats.

Anti-gunners love to use the last two lines as "proof" that you are "twice as likely to shoot your kid as a robber". Of course, that is bollocks. That assumption works from the idea that you must shoot and kill the bad guy to use a gun to defend yourself.

I've seen the most conservative estimate of the number of people that have used a gun to defend themself or their family, to be 350,000 to the NRA's #'s of over 2 million.

A couple more facts help this case. When interviewed most criminals say they put energy into learning if a victim has a gun, and if they have one, avoiding them. Most criminals also say when confronted with a gun, they get the hell out. It also avoids the fact that most people shot with a handgun will survive.

Mesa Tactical
10-07-2006, 07:28 AM
They are from an anti-gun site I don't want to link to or mention, so as to avoid emasculating their google rating. :D

They look exactly like the numbers from the Centers for Disease Control, which I would think should be accepted by everyone as the last word on these statistics.

And the stats support us.

One number that has always impressed me about the CDC stats is annual accidental firearms deaths. It is always less than 1,000 in the entire country of 200 million privately owned firearms. That's an amazing safety record, and one I think would suprise quite a few gun owners (and even then, I suspect that many of those "accidents" are really suicides).