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View Full Version : FN SCAR 16S versus Bushmaster ACR Part 2


JohnnyRooks
02-26-2011, 7:50 AM
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5216/5475143413_283904248a_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5476373468_0a709b13cb_b.jpg

Since the first thread of the SCAR versus ACR was deleted i'm making a new one to continue the discussion.

N.B. I'm no firearms expert and it is just my personal opinion. So don't shoot me.:D

I got to chance to shoot and compare my FN SCAR againt's CRTguns Bushmaster ACR. Shooting my SCAR is like a dream, recoil is light, accuracy is good. Ergonomics wise it's kinda bulky and fat but it's a non issue for me. First impression with the ACR in the gun store.. well it's front heavy and not well balanced. I feel like my arm was sore after holding the gun for a few seconds since i am using thumb over bore technique or some called it Chris Costa Mall Ninja Technique or whatever. I feel like it's flimsy and an overated gun after Shrubmaster took over the project Masada. I'm not gonna go more into details of the takedown or whatever cosmetics since it is not purpose of this thead.

Then we take turns shooting our guns and CRTguns handed me his ACR. I was like wait a second.. this ain't the gun i handled a few weeks back. It is much lighter weight around 6-7 lbs. Yes he heavily modified the gun like cutting off the barrel and pinned a muzzle brake to make it shorter but legal. Took off metals that hanging off the barrel and shave off several pounds/ounces. CRTguns will explain more on his mods when he chime in later. The ACR is well balance that it is no longer front heavy.

So i grab a mag and start blasting off those VTAC target. My first impression was like.. woooooooo it feels like i am shooting a .22LR and my grouping from 25 yards was tight. Considering my skill level is like shooting a birdshot shotgun groups most of the time. :D

Tried another run and pretty much the same thing happened. I feel like i grow a man beard and transformed into Chris Costa. I shoot forward, backward and lateral in a fast pace motion but my accuracy did not suffer at all.

As of these writing I can say the ACR is superior to the FN SCAR... let me rephrase it again.. The modified ACR is superior to the FN SCAR. I will prolly ask him to do some TLC to make par with the ACR.

CRT playing with the Shotgun ACR.:43:

HNBR4PpSvLY

Outta Control
02-26-2011, 8:29 AM
I think your comparison and analysis is flawed. Since you've been shooting your SCAR you become complacent and firing anything else would be so different that it may seem better. What you need is someone who has never shot either gun to give him/her 200 rounds for each rifle to get a fair evaluation. ;)

JohnnyRooks
02-26-2011, 8:57 AM
Flawed or not but i call a spade a spade. ;)

Funny thing that i forgot to mention that there was an army guy who just got back from iraq jan. 31, 2011. He should my SCAR first and he said he loves it. Then shoot the ACR and his first words are "oh my soul" grinning...lol

Toolbox X
02-26-2011, 9:07 AM
Tell Bushmaster to start selling the CRT version of the ACR. What is the total price tag to do all of the CRT mods and how hard is it to get them done?

One of the SCAR's finest qualities is it is absolutely amazing right out of the box. The BUIS are fantastic. The weight is fantastic. Etc.

I want to know how a stock ACR shoots compared to a stock SCAR.

drclark
02-26-2011, 9:11 AM
so how much would crtguns charge someone to perform similar modifications to their ACR? Is the modified ACR good enough to justify its base price plus the modification costs vs the cost of the SCAR?

Also, is it really fair to compare a smith-tuned gun vs a presumably stock gun? You should have also had a bone stock ACR in the shoot off for comparison.

JohnnyRooks
02-26-2011, 9:16 AM
Tell Bushmaster to start selling the CRT version of the ACR. What is the total price tag to do all of the CRT mods and how hard is it to get them done?

One of the SCAR's finest qualities is it is absolutely amazing right out of the box. The BUIS are fantastic. The weight is fantastic. Etc.

I want to know how a stock ACR shoots compared to a stock SCAR.

CRT can answer your questions. But he do mods for a fair price. He works on one of my AR's and makes a hell lot of a difference. He shave off the hammer and sear, change the spring and it like shooting a different a gun. From a long reset to a short reset and lighter trigger pull. I don't have to buy an expensive Giselle trigger to get it work.

I still love my SCAR but it needs some mods to make it great weapon system.

pyro3k2
02-26-2011, 9:19 AM
Just a picture thread thank Allah, Great pictures by the way.

JohnnyRooks
02-26-2011, 9:21 AM
so how much would crtguns charge someone to perform similar modifications to their ACR? Is the modified ACR good enough to justify its base price plus the modification costs vs the cost of the SCAR?

Also, is it really fair to compare a smith-tuned gun vs a presumably stock gun? You should have also had a bone stock ACR in the shoot off for comparison.

CRTguns can answer you that. I don't know how much he charges but he is a very reasonable guy. He is not one of those money hungry gun store owners. For some reason he don't charge me at all everytime i ask him to work on my gun. :D

here's a better view of his ACR..

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5477161769_1beffbf7ec_b.jpg

CRTguns
02-26-2011, 2:55 PM
To call that spade a spade... our comparison was not long range, no inclement conditions. Out to @ 40 yards at practical sized targets. The ACR will deliver more rounds, more accurately, in less time start to finish. That means, from low ready, buzzer sounds- get gun up, find sights, hit the trigger while coordinating with sight picture and movement... lets put it this way- if you were paying us by the hour to get rid of some insurgent bad guys- you'd get better service, and for less money with the ACR.

One of the major problems with SCAR at close range is the really extreme sight/barrel offset- the hit happens 4-5 inches below point of aim. That can be a problem. The overall height of the thing- it can be dealt with, but will require lots of practice and calibration.

My ACR has lost 6.5 ounces, and finishes at 16.1 from breech face. TTI muzzle brake. Trigger got a spring kit and a polish job.

Not to forget is the ex mil guy- played security detail for a very important and decorated "person" in many locations- this guy had the top of the line, cutting edge available to him in the way of weapons. "Oh.....My Soul!" were his words for the ACR.

Round about $300 to do it all. Brake, contour, refinish, trigger.

on a side note... I'm usually not one to boast to a weapons ability to change and adapt- I think they should be very, very specific and suited to a task. My ACR is tweaked to really shine up to 200yds. The SCAR was somewhat medium range, multi-use. The result will be the same with a cqb specific SCAR or a medium range multi-role ACR, given the right add-ons and mods.

Outta Control
02-26-2011, 2:57 PM
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5477161769_1beffbf7ec_b.jpg

From that photo it the chamber looks like its an open bolt.

JohnnyRooks
02-26-2011, 3:13 PM
From that photo it the chamber looks like its an open bolt.

Its airsoft.. lol

I have stand in front/near of him to take Photos.. so the open bolt is to make sure the chamber is empty.. :)

MrPlink
02-26-2011, 3:42 PM
nice thread, and good to know that the ACR can be brought up to speed, but I dont see this as remotely fair of a comparison because you have a fairly (and as it sounds "expertly") modified rifle vs one with just bolt ons and the like.

Toolbox X
02-26-2011, 3:48 PM
Does the $300 include the $200 Troy Micro Battlesights?

CRTguns
02-26-2011, 5:17 PM
Does the $300 include the $200 Troy Micro Battlesights?



No- sights are up to you.


Johnnyrooks- That video needs to be named "ACR Executions."

docsmileyface
02-26-2011, 6:14 PM
Im stunned by your eloquence :rolleyes:

nice thread, and good to know that the ACR can be brought up to speed, but I dont see this as remotely fair of a comparison because you have a fairly (and as it sounds "expertly") modified rifle vs one with just bolt ons and the like.

Yeah its kind of like

"THE ACR IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE SCAR....!"

"....After you completely have everything reworked by someone with a machine shop...."

JohnnyRooks
02-26-2011, 6:53 PM
No- sights are up to you.


Johnnyrooks- That video needs to be named "ACR Executions."

done.. :D


Yeah its kind of like

"THE ACR IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE SCAR....!"

"....After you completely have everything reworked by someone with a machine shop...."

isn't that we supposed to do? making our weapon better and more efficient? If we got stock in the mud.. we prolly been shooting and comparing muskets here in calguns. :D

ACR has been bashed to death after it was handed down to shrubmaster and now it can be modified to become a superior weapon system.

here's the ACR shooting on the move.. it's like shooting a .22LR:D
k8-J23QhvwI

Uriah02
02-26-2011, 7:36 PM
I wish I could see the pics and video... it sounds great, but like many have mentioned with the mods and the high sticker price already is it still worth it?

CRTguns
02-26-2011, 8:16 PM
Yeah its kind of like

"THE ACR IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE SCAR....!"

"....After you completely have everything reworked by someone with a machine shop...."

"everything reworked"
???

A brake, a spring kit in the trigger, and some material off the front section of the barrel. That's it.

The Scar in question has a barrel of comparable thickness, and a muzle device, and a nice trigger- what's the hangup?

CRTguns
02-26-2011, 8:34 PM
I wish I could see the pics and video... it sounds great, but like many have mentioned with the mods and the high sticker price already is it still worth it?

The basic gun's $2400 or so, if you dig hard you can save a couple hundred more.

I admit- the ACR coulda, shoulda been <2k. even at Sig or M6 money- 1600-1800 it would be a great seller- BUT even at over 2k, it is worth every penny- and I am a guy with a unique and quite lucky position in my professional life that allows me to play with, and experiment with, and own, if I wish, almost anything. I really have sold more of my personal guns than most will ever own...this gun is the best out of the box I've had. Nothing required for relaibility or accuracy improvements...only handling. ANY and all guns are candidates for a trigger and a brake, so that does not even count.

Yes, I've tweaked it a bit- but only so very little to get it to be truly exceptional. Hell, the AR I play 3 gun with is at 4K worth of time and parts to get it to work like it should. Most LWRC or Noveske or KAC owners will tell you that it is money invested, and is worth every penny- you never have to rebuild, and you never regret owning a really really good piece of hardware. For what I was looking for- and ultra reliable solid 223 compact battle rifle, this is the ticket man. I welcome anyone who wants to come try it out- Get in touch, meet me at my home range, or richmond or SLOSA, as I go to those places often. Bring your gun and your skeptisism and some ammo. I'll make you a believer.

In a sense, what Ive done is not out of fashion with the intent of the designers and mfg... the gun is supposed to be modular for mission specific applications- that's what I've done. Made it better at its short game.

docsmileyface
02-26-2011, 9:53 PM
Still - comparing your reworked ACR to a SCAR that is pretty much stock save a longer rail (which in my opinion isn't even needed) is like taking a Del-Ton rifle that has been reworked with an LMT enhanced BCG, free floating rail system, Geiselle trigger, Noveske barrel, ect ect and saying "Del Tons are way better than Colts."

For the price, instead of having to modify the ACR to do what it should have done out of the box at additional expense doesn't make sense. I'm pissed off Bushmaster screwed the ACR, I wanted one very badly but at the price point I'd just get a SCAR 16S.

Knife Edge
02-26-2011, 11:46 PM
Out to @ 40 yards at practical sized targets. The ACR will deliver more rounds, more accurately, in less time start to finish. That means, from low ready, buzzer sounds- get gun up, find sights, hit the trigger while coordinating with sight picture and movement... lets put it this way- if you were paying us by the hour to get rid of some insurgent bad guys- you'd get better service, and for less money with the ACR.

Not sure I agree with this as I imagine there is huge difference between 3-gun in 5.11 vs. slugging it out in a village with 60 pounds of gear on. Moving beyond that reference...

I have photos (posted in another thread) of my SCAR laying down 1-1.5" groups at 200m with .223 Federal Ball ammo. Keep in mind that was done off my range bag with a 2MOA Aimpoint with 3X mag, no bench rest. Others have landed 4" groups at 500 yards. I am not sure the Shrubmaster can pull this off with it's stock M4 style barrel, which would be another modification required. Additionally, hitting little 4" swingers at the rate of about 4 in five seconds at 200m became the norm after a few drills (using the magnifier of course). In other words, the SCAR is very fast and it puts rounds exactly where they are pointed.

One of the major problems with SCAR at close range is the really extreme sight/barrel offset- the hit happens 4-5 inches below point of aim. That can be a problem. The overall height of the thing- it can be dealt with, but will require lots of practice and calibration.

While I don't have an ACR next to me as a reference, I did notice that the SCAR was equipped with an ACOG which is notorious for sitting high while the ACR was utilizing BUIS. Furthermore, ACOGs are fixed magnification meaning they are not the fastest inside 50 yards. A more apples to apples comparison in this post would have both weapons equipped with the same optic, BUIS, EO Tech or Aimpoint; I would have removed the ACOG from the SCAR. At 40 yards and in, the BUIS will most definitely have speed over an ACOG, especially if it's a high magnification one. I have a 3X magnifier on my SCAR and would never think of swinging that thing in-line at CQB distances like 40 yards unless I needed to blast a ground squirrel in the eyeball.

In your post you are referencing the sight to barrel offset as a critical issue with the SCAR. Fortunately, FN addresses this on page 31 of the owner's manual, which no offense, I am not sure most people read. The BUIS on the SCAR is setup for a 35m/300m zero. The drum on the rear BUIS is calibrated in increments of 100m from 2 to 6. Furthermore, the manual states that the weapon is only shipped with a mechanical zero, meaning the front sight post is flush with the opening and the index lines centered on the rear (I'm aware you already know this but many readers may not). The sights actually require a range session to setup properly. Per the manual, CQB (the ranges you were working at) should actually be conducted with the rear BUIS on position 3, which will provide a POI at exactly the POA at 35m AND 300m.

on a side note... I'm usually not one to boast to a weapons ability to change and adapt- I think they should be very, very specific and suited to a task. My ACR is tweaked to really shine up to 200yds. The SCAR was somewhat medium range, multi-use. The result will be the same with a cqb specific SCAR or a medium range multi-role ACR, given the right add-ons and mods.

I agree with this, one of the chief complaints about 5.56 vs a battle rifle. A 16" barrel in .308 opens up a whole other world in capability.

MrPlink
02-27-2011, 2:54 AM
I'm pissed off Bushmaster screwed the ACR, I wanted one very badly but at the price point I'd just get a SCAR 16S.

I feel the same way for the most part, Im a card carrying magpul koolaid drinker,
and I think the platform had so much to offer when first announced, but dont like where it ended for numerous reasons.

but as a fellow SCAR 17 owner, you and I both know this point is moot :cool:

JeffM
02-27-2011, 3:15 AM
I always smile when this kind of topic comes up.

It seems that the amount of butthurt expressed is proportional to the cost of the weapon system whenever there's an indication that something else works just as good or better.

MrPlink
02-27-2011, 4:27 AM
I always smile when this kind of topic comes up.

It seems that the amount of butthurt expressed is proportional to the cost of the weapon system whenever there's an indication that something else works just as good or better.

the irony is your logic goes both ways, I think you just fail to see it

Kceads
02-27-2011, 5:12 AM
The companies competed in the SCAR program and one of them won. Who was that again? You have the opportunity to buy the winner or the loser so lets make the right choice.

docsmileyface
02-27-2011, 8:31 AM
I always smile when this kind of topic comes up.

It seems that the amount of butthurt expressed is proportional to the cost of the weapon system whenever there's an indication that something else works just as good or better.

Yeah, those guys always wish they just bought a SCAR instead of having to fix their sucky gun...... :cool::D

Toolbox X
02-27-2011, 11:03 AM
Is this right? You can buy a basic ACR for $1750 now?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=218068673

And $1730?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=217792310

docsmileyface
02-27-2011, 11:40 AM
Thing that sucks is the guys willing to sell to CA won't sell for prices THAT low. But still, comparing the ACR basic to a SCAR is still not a very fair comparison - to make the ACR equal in just features would cost several hundred dollars more on top of that, then to modify its barrel would add even more probably making it more expensive than the SCAR.

Uxi
02-27-2011, 12:10 PM
I've been leaning ACR with the tool-less caliber change (<3 6.8) being the most attractive feature. Otherwise, from my perspective both are relatively close and the ACR has the nod for also being cheaper locally in the basic config. I would prefer polymer front grip since I don't put a lot of crap like lights, etc on and prefer it for the grip without gloves. I would want the folding stock (I really don't want to ever fold it, but would like and use the telescoping feature), so getting it pinned to be Cali legal is fine.

I would like to eventually get a SCAR-17S, though.

Baconator
02-27-2011, 12:23 PM
Meh. To each his own. I decided on the SCAR as was recommended to me by people who shoot lots of guns. I might hate it, as I haven't ever shot one yet and don't get mine until the third, but I heard enough good about it to get me interested in it.

Uxi
02-27-2011, 12:45 PM
Is this right? You can buy a basic ACR for $1750 now?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=218068673

And $1730?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=217792310

First guy who gets that price for a Cali version + maybe $50 installed for a bullet button will get the sale. They don't even need to include a gimped magazine, just take apart the included PMAG as a 'rebuild kit.'

CRTguns
03-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Meh. To each his own. I decided on the SCAR as was recommended to me by people who shoot lots of guns. I might hate it, as I haven't ever shot one yet and don't get mine until the third, but I heard enough good about it to get me interested in it.

That's as reliable as taking nutrition advice from fat people.:D

MrPlink
03-02-2011, 3:10 AM
That's as reliable as taking nutrition advice from fat people.:D

Im sorry, whats that? I couldnt hear you over the swan song the ACR is singing thanks to Bushmaster :p

JohnnyRooks
03-02-2011, 5:48 AM
That's as reliable as taking nutrition advice from fat people.:D

I dont need any advice from you.. lol

CRTguns
03-02-2011, 7:06 PM
Im sorry, whats that? I couldnt hear you over the swan song the ACR is singing thanks to Bushmaster :p

:(I know.

CRTguns
03-02-2011, 7:09 PM
Thing that sucks is the guys willing to sell to CA won't sell for prices THAT low. But still, comparing the ACR basic to a SCAR is still not a very fair comparison - to make the ACR equal in just features would cost several hundred dollars more on top of that, then to modify its barrel would add even more probably making it more expensive than the SCAR.


$300 is all it takes!

It's not invasive, it's not expensive. It's just $300 to take the ACR back to its Masada roots. The way Magpull intended it to be. The mission specific, lightweight well balanced rifle- not the medium, middle, average size, weight, purrpose-less gun bushmaster turned out.

$300. Barrel included.

Uxi
03-02-2011, 8:10 PM
So it's mostly a modified barrel right? So it can still be quick changed out?

Darthbauer
09-13-2011, 10:36 AM
CRT, are there any pics of the barrel unmounted so we can see the barrel work?

prerunners4life
09-13-2011, 11:53 AM
On acr forum they told me to send my barrel to adco to get shortened to 14.125 and the muzzle device installed.. You guys ever heard of that??

Darthbauer
09-13-2011, 2:11 PM
On acr forum they told me to send my barrel to adco to get shortened to 14.125 and the muzzle device installed.. You guys ever heard of that??

I'm the guy that told you to send it to ADCO on the ACR forum. I didn't know about CRT when I said that though. If I can find someone in CA to send it to I'd rather do that but ADCO does do good work.

prerunners4life
09-13-2011, 2:37 PM
Ok well I sent CRT a pm seeing if he would like to help me out maybe..
Has anyone done a 13in brl with a JP tactical comp which is 3in long??

tomd1584
09-13-2011, 2:59 PM
Ok well I sent CRT a pm seeing if he would like to help me out maybe..
Has anyone done a 13in brl with a JP tactical comp which is 3in long??

You would need the barrel around 13.5"-13.7" long, as you have to account for the threading overlap.

prerunners4life
09-13-2011, 7:18 PM
Understood I just want to know if it is possible..

mrvash
09-13-2011, 8:11 PM
That's it, I'm going to Riflegear to pick up a basic ACR in brown, CA edition.

pacrimguru
09-13-2011, 8:22 PM
That's it, I'm going to Riflegear to pick up a basic ACR in brown, CA edition.

you mean in mustard, right? ;)

prerunners4life
09-14-2011, 7:29 AM
That's it, I'm going to Riflegear to pick up a basic ACR in brown, CA edition.

Do it!

Darthbauer
09-14-2011, 7:31 AM
you mean in mustard, right? ;)


It looks a lot better in person.

Uxi
09-14-2011, 8:17 AM
At first, I was wishing it was regular Magpul FDE but I really like Coyote Brown now. It matches the USMC brown perfectly.

Forgot about this thread. I was on the fence teetering over to ACR at the time and this was one of the one that fully tipped me over as well as fingering both of them at the FLGS. No regrets at all.

pacrimguru
09-14-2011, 8:30 AM
It looks a lot better in person.

not in my opinion. the receiver's got this strange greenish yellow baby food (or poop) looking hue to it and the polymer parts don't match any magul fde parts which make no sense to me. but i still dig the gun, i'd still buy it. i like the feel and controls of the acr more than the scar's. i'd probably end up painting it though.

prerunners4life
09-14-2011, 9:48 AM
I like the coyote brown.. But to each his own, this 10 days is gonna kill me :21:

Darthbauer
09-14-2011, 10:07 AM
I like the coyote brown.. But to each his own, this 10 days is gonna kill me :21:


I'd say you could shoot mine but I'm in Washington this week.

Toolbox X
09-14-2011, 10:13 AM
When is the ACR 2 coming out? I've read some rumors about it and it sounds like they are really trying to address most of the ACR problems and shortcomings.

Uxi
09-14-2011, 10:23 AM
It's an unsubstantiated rumor at this point and probably will remain so until there's a press release

Toolbox X
09-14-2011, 11:38 AM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/08/31/rumor-mill-magpul-to-debut-a-new-acr-masada-or-massoud/

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1224724_Magpul_to_introduce_the_Masada__A_new_ACR_ to_debut_.html

Uxi
09-14-2011, 11:58 AM
The Masada has been talked about for years. The ARF thread shows exactly that it's unsubstantiated rumor as it was flaring up when the sites went down. Then came back.

MultiCaliber
09-14-2011, 2:12 PM
I hate to mention something that may drag this discussion in yet another direction, but how do we know the Beretta ARX-160 won't shame both of these acronym named rifles when(if) it becomes available to us?

:hide:

Not saying we can trust their "Well below $2k MSRP", because you know, look at the ACR, I'm just saying, the ARX looks -awesome-.

Uxi
09-14-2011, 2:17 PM
It does look pretty good but until it's available it's a question mark. XCR is out there now and has delivered on the caliber changes though some people are more satisfied than others. I'll welcome them to the party when they're there, though as more choice is never bad.

Toolbox X
09-14-2011, 2:33 PM
The ARX-160 didn't impress me when I played with it at SHOT. The only feature it brought to the table was a third mag release button underneath the rifle perfectly placed so when you grab the magazine your thumb can push up and release the mag. Other than that I didn't like how much plastic it had and how cheap the plastic felt. It's neat and I'm glad it's coming out, but I don't see how it will be able to hold a candle to the SCAR.

The ARX-160 is drooled over because it doesn't exist in civilian hands yet, so in people's eyes it is perfect. No failures. No recalls. No final weight. No balance tests. No recoil tests. No actual price. People will always assume it will be awesome in every one of those categories but as every new rifle has ever proved that will absolutely not happen.

prerunners4life
09-14-2011, 2:33 PM
I wouldn't mind the arx.. :) I will take one of those too when they come out..

Deadon
11-25-2011, 5:06 PM
Picked up a ACR today on AD for 1599.99. Its in Jail now.

pc_load_letter
11-25-2011, 7:42 PM
What about the history of customer service from Robarms? I read that if you buy one of their rifles used\second hand, they will not support the rifle if something happens to it?



You need to check out the XCR. It's a much better designed rifle than either the ACR or SCAR.

Better Ergonomics,
Better Quick Change Barrel,
Better Stock,
More Calibers,
More Options,
Better Choice.

http://www.robarm.com

E__WOK
12-07-2011, 3:43 AM
You need to check out the XCR. It's a much better designed rifle than either the ACR or SCAR.

Better Ergonomics,
Better Quick Change Barrel,
Better Stock,
More Calibers,
More Options,
Better Choice.

http://www.robarm.com

The OP didn't ask about the XCRap.

Which rifle is in military use?

E__WOK
12-07-2011, 3:51 AM
What about the history of customer service from Robarms? I read that if you buy one of their rifles used\second hand, they will not support the rifle if something happens to it?


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=490395

Doh!

MrPlink
12-07-2011, 4:54 AM
The OP didn't ask about the XCRap.

Which rifle is in military use?

RobArms has an interesting tale about, most of which has been posted on this forum already IIRC

not saying its true or false, but an interesting claim that perhaps holds water

Here is a big question - how does the XCR do in the accuracy dept vs the SCAR / ACR ?

MilitaryArms
12-07-2011, 7:52 AM
I own two ACR's (FDE and black) and two SCARs (FDE and black). I've been shooting them side by side for over a year now.

I started off favoring the SCAR because, at the time, I felt it was the most evolved military rifle on the market. It is super light weight, accurate, fairly easy to operate (damn that reciprocating charging handle and it's location relative to optics) and made by a well respected military contractor.

That was before I bought my first ACR.

Even after getting that first ACR I still favored the SCAR because I had more trigger time with it. But after a year of shooting them side by side, the ACR has edged out the SCAR as my favorite despite it's rather small annoyances. The SCAR isn't without its own annoyances, mind you.

As for the notion the ACR is a poorly built rattle trap hobbled together by "shrubmaster", I say horse puckey. One of the things I like most about the ACR is the rock solid build. One of the areas where the ACR's superior build and use of what I feel are better materials as compared to the SCAR is the folding stock. The SCAR's stock is the weakest element of the rifle. It's flimsy, wobbly, noisy and uses an easily broken plastic latch. By comparison the ACR's stock is solid, quiet to use, and gives the operator a positive feeling.

In terms of accuracy, I've found both perform about the same. I would like to see the ACR with a lighter weight barrel to match that of the SCAR's. It would improve balance, but then I don't find myself getting fatigued after a few seconds using it. As a matter of fact, I don't find myself being fatigued at all using the ACR. It's just slower going from target to target than the SCAR is. The added muzzle weight actually makes shooting for groups offhand a little easier in my experience, but I would still rather have a lighter weight barrel.

As of right now I definitely favor the ACR. My black ACR has several thousand rounds through it without a drop of oil or so much as a wipe down. I've fired M193, M855 and lots of Wolf .223 through it and have experienced zero malfunctions.

The same is true of my black SCAR by the way.

The point is that the ACR has been a very reliable rifle, contrary to what I've read posted about it on the internet elsewhere.

cmace22
12-07-2011, 8:04 AM
You need to check out the XCR. It's a much better designed rifle than either the ACR or SCAR.

Better Ergonomics,
Better Quick Change Barrel,
Better Stock,
More Calibers,
More Options,
Better Choice.

http://www.robarm.com

GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!

Your post history shows you doing this in 40 of your 42 post......

Spam up another site. If someone has a question about the XCR, they will ask.

Diabolus
12-07-2011, 8:27 AM
I own two ACR's (FDE and black) and two SCARs (FDE and black). I've been shooting them side by side for over a year now.

I started off favoring the SCAR because, at the time, I felt it was the most evolved military rifle on the market. It is super light weight, accurate, fairly easy to operate (damn that reciprocating charging handle and it's location relative to optics) and made by a well respected military contractor.

That was before I bought my first ACR.

Even after getting that first ACR I still favored the SCAR because I had more trigger time with it. But after a year of shooting them side by side, the ACR has edged out the SCAR as my favorite despite it's rather small annoyances. The SCAR isn't without its own annoyances, mind you.

As for the notion the ACR is a poorly built rattle trap hobbled together by "shrubmaster", I say horse puckey. One of the things I like most about the ACR is the rock solid build. One of the areas where the ACR's superior build and use of what I feel are better materials as compared to the SCAR is the folding stock. The SCAR's stock is the weakest element of the rifle. It's flimsy, wobbly, noisy and uses an easily broken plastic latch. By comparison the ACR's stock is solid, quiet to use, and gives the operator a positive feeling.

In terms of accuracy, I've found both perform about the same. I would like to see the ACR with a lighter weight barrel to match that of the SCAR's. It would improve balance, but then I don't find myself getting fatigued after a few seconds using it. As a matter of fact, I don't find myself being fatigued at all using the ACR. It's just slower going from target to target than the SCAR is. The added muzzle weight actually makes shooting for groups offhand a little easier in my experience, but I would still rather have a lighter weight barrel.

As of right now I definitely favor the ACR. My black ACR has several thousand rounds through it without a drop of oil or so much as a wipe down. I've fired M193, M855 and lots of Wolf .223 through it and have experienced zero malfunctions.

The same is true of my black SCAR by the way.

The point is that the ACR has been a very reliable rifle, contrary to what I've read posted about it on the internet elsewhere.

Sorry, but your post count is too low for us to take you seriously.

Now on to more important matters, the SCAR is the end-all-be-all. It is the rifle all others are to be judged by.

:43:

Uxi
12-07-2011, 8:50 AM
Post count? That's a joke, right?

thmpr
12-07-2011, 8:53 AM
Sorry, but your post count is too low for us to take you seriously.

Now on to more important matters, the SCAR is the end-all-be-all. It is the rifle all others are to be judged by.

:43:

I would not worry about the post count...:D

http://militaryarms.blogspot.com/

pc_load_letter
12-07-2011, 8:58 AM
I believe Travis Haley is on record saying the Bushmaster dropped the ball on the ACR. Reports from distributors is that the v1 of the ACR has been discontinued. I honestly do not know if that is true or not but it would be a shame if it was and spare parts became an issue.

Seeing the prototype pics of the v2 ACR from Remington has me much more excited. At least with their version I can install my own type of grip. Anyways, no word yet if it will be available for public consumption.

Uxi
12-07-2011, 9:10 AM
As of right now I definitely favor the ACR. My black ACR has several thousand rounds through it without a drop of oil or so much as a wipe down. I've fired M193, M855 and lots of Wolf .223 through it and have experienced zero malfunctions.

The same is true of my black SCAR by the way.

The point is that the ACR has been a very reliable rifle, contrary to what I've read posted about it on the internet elsewhere.

There seems to be a subset of SCAR partisans that go out of their way to denigrate the ACR, usually when they have no direct personal experience with it. It reminds me of the same sort of tribalism you see with Chevy vs Ford, for example.

Ahmad
12-07-2011, 9:17 AM
I think your comparison and analysis is flawed. Since you've been shooting your SCAR you become complacent and firing anything else would be so different that it may seem better. What you need is someone who has never shot either gun to give him/her 200 rounds for each rifle to get a fair evaluation. ;)

I've never shot either gun. Gimme.

ir0nclash86
12-07-2011, 9:54 AM
XCR>SCAR>ACR.

MilitaryArms
12-07-2011, 10:03 AM
Seeing the prototype pics of the v2 ACR from Remington has me much more excited. At least with their version I can install my own type of grip. Anyways, no word yet if it will be available for public consumption.

Not likely anytime soon. While the two rifles roll off the same production line (and are mostly the same right now), the Remington rifle is 100% intended for the military trials. Those will last about 3 years. The Remington ACR will go through a number of changes and will be the testbed.

If the military adopts the ACR, then I would expect the final changes to the design to be rolled into the Bushmaster ACR for civilian sales. If the ACR isn't chosen, I would imagine the Remington version will go away and we'll be left with the Bushmaster ACR carrying on.

Uxi
12-07-2011, 10:26 AM
It should be noted that the changes in the Rem version are to suit the carbine competition to the Army's requirements:

different trunion - big army doesn't like the idea of the average doggie taking off his own barrel in first echelon maintenance
lighter weight - fluted lighter profile barrel
telescoping, but non-folding stock

From what I've read, everything from the Remington should all be compatible with the current Bushmasters. Stocks are still interchangeable. Set screw for the Remington barrel/trunion should be adaptable to the quick change on the Bushy (and vice versa). The stock avoids the length issues of the California AWB and folding, though it's still an evil feature (though the removable pistol grip opens up the possibility for something like a hammerhead).

CRTguns
12-09-2011, 9:32 PM
XCR>SCAR>ACR.

You wanna fight?

CRTguns
12-09-2011, 9:33 PM
I believe Travis Haley is on record saying the Bushmaster dropped the ball on the ACR. Reports from distributors is that the v1 of the ACR has been discontinued. I honestly do not know if that is true or not but it would be a shame if it was and spare parts became an issue.

Seeing the prototype pics of the v2 ACR from Remington has me much more excited. At least with their version I can install my own type of grip. Anyways, no word yet if it will be available for public consumption.

Doublecheck history and record of integrity of Mr. Haley first. He is not Jesus.

CRTguns
12-09-2011, 9:39 PM
I own two ACR's (FDE and black) and two SCARs (FDE and black). I've been shooting them side by side for over a year now.

..... I would like to see the ACR with a lighter weight barrel to match that of the SCAR's. It would improve balance, but then I don't find myself getting fatigued after a few seconds using it. As a matter of fact, I don't find myself being fatigued at all using the ACR. It's just slower going from target to target than the SCAR is. The added muzzle weight actually makes shooting for groups offhand a little easier in my experience, but I would still rather have a lighter weight barrel.

.....
The point is that the ACR has been a very reliable rifle, contrary to what I've read posted about it on the internet elsewhere.



Like this?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6084564242_c8fd4ed644_b.jpg
6 ounces and 2" less. All the difference in the world.

ir0nclash86
12-09-2011, 9:50 PM
You wanna fight?

Lol I've owned all three. Wasn't impressed with the ACR at all.

pyro3k2
12-10-2011, 12:43 AM
Sorry, but your post count is too low for us to take you seriously.

Now on to more important matters, the SCAR is the end-all-be-all. It is the rifle all others are to be judged by.

:43:

Just because someone's post count is low doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.

I would not worry about the post count...:D

http://militaryarms.blogspot.com/

Beat me to it.

MrPlink
12-10-2011, 2:22 AM
There seems to be a subset of SCAR partisans that go out of their way to denigrate the ACR, usually when they have no direct personal experience with it. It reminds me of the same sort of tribalism you see with Chevy vs Ford, for example.

this knife cuts both ways.
I suppose the XCR is the Mopar guys insisting they are still relevant :D

Knife Edge
12-10-2011, 7:40 AM
Like this?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6090/6084564242_c8fd4ed644_b.jpg
6 ounces and 2" less. All the difference in the world.

I was thinking more like this...

http://img.tapatalk.com/a6cd0e3d-7d54-52fa.jpg

Uxi
12-10-2011, 10:32 AM
this knife cuts both ways.

I don't think I've ever seen it going the other way, actually.


I suppose the XCR is the Mopar guys insisting they are still relevant :D

:D

SDgarrick
12-10-2011, 11:32 AM
So what does CRT's shortened and tuned ACR do that a similarly tuned and shorted AR won't do. Curious, because the AR has tons of aftermarket support and do-dads, including piston systems and barrel options; it is already quite light/minimal should you want it to be.

Uxi
12-10-2011, 12:05 PM
So what does CRT's shortened and tuned ACR do that a similarly tuned and shorted AR won't do. Curious, because the AR has tons of aftermarket support and do-dads, including piston systems and barrel options; it is already quite light/minimal should you want it to be.

Want to know one thing? Charge/cycle the action without removing your stock/cheek weld.

For me, the ACR is what the AR should have already evolved to. Enough that sighting, ammunition, magazines, etc are all about identical but with all the crappy negatives that bugged the **** out of me when I had to hump one removed. There are guys who regularly fire thousands of rounds with only running a boresnake through it, too.

You know a good chunk of that AR aftermarket support (triggers, bore devices, etc) is drop in, right? More than a couple guys are using off the shelf AR barrels, too (It's overgassed out of the box with an AR-sized gas port, though, so filling the hole with a set screw or rigging up a FAL style regulator is necessary - and probably what Bushmaster should have done out of the box as well as the grip-less lower receiver). Not say Bushmaster hasn't screwed up (outside of going away from off the shelf AR barrels and the integrated grip, as well as the interminable delay in getting the barrel kits out as well as the PRS/DMR variant). While we would've all loved the LaRue ACR, it's still pretty good. Sure, it's not for everyone and if you only want to spend less than a G, definitely not for everyone.

Knife Edge
12-10-2011, 12:15 PM
+1, LARUE ACR!!!

CRTguns
12-10-2011, 4:43 PM
So what does CRT's shortened and tuned ACR do that a similarly tuned and shorted AR won't do. Curious, because the AR has tons of aftermarket support and do-dads, including piston systems and barrel options; it is already quite light/minimal should you want it to be.

Your AR won't fit in a case intended for a laptop computer, for starters. And your AR won;t stay cool to the touch all over during sustained fire. Your tuned ar won't keep going like the energizer bunny.

(That said, my AR-15 match rifle is going on 4000 rds of fire in practice, fun, and organized 3-gun matches. Did just put a new barrel on cuz bullets were keyholing, but I did not clean the bolt or action)

Don't get me wrong, goes the other way too. The ACR will never find its way into the winners circle at a 3-gun or NRA high power match. The ACR will never enjoy the capability and versatility of a complete facelift or overhaul like the AR.

The ACR will murder the SCAR, then eat its heart and liver, they bury it out back with dinner scraps. I have had SCAR owners ask to trade guns.

In all truth...those that have tried them all, and have made the decision- whatever that decision be, can unabashedly say "SCAR!" or whichever they please... but ONLY those who have owned all three and ran them side by side. No gun is the only gun or best gun for every situation or every shooter. Like no set of eyeglasses that suit me will ever perfectly adapt to anybody else.

stormy_clothing
12-10-2011, 5:19 PM
On acr forum they told me to send my barrel to adco to get shortened to 14.125 and the muzzle device installed.. You guys ever heard of that??

I sent mine to adco for shortening an pinning

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7634/imag0466.jpg

The thing you have to understand is the ACR uses the M4 profile for a very good reason, barrel harmonics.

The SCAR may cut weight down by making a pencil thin barrel and reduce felt recoil using a pws brake but give the ACR the same brake and a shortened barrel and you will have a much better weapon.

Personally if I could say 1 thing about the acr over the scar it would be feel, the ACR feels solid like a club. The scar feels like it was built by an airsoft company and the reciprocating charging handle and all of the other differences just add to that feeling the acr from it's inception has been a better rifle.

MrPlink
12-10-2011, 5:58 PM
maybe Im just handling nothing but reject ACRs, because the last two I handled had visible 'flash' on the polymer parts, which really leaned towards the airsoft argument.

MrPlink
12-10-2011, 6:02 PM
I don't think I've ever seen it going the other way, actually.




The ACR will murder the SCAR, then eat its heart and liver, they bury it out back with dinner scraps. I have had SCAR owners ask to trade guns.



speak of the devil :devil2:


for me the here is the bottom line on why the SCAR wins,
mine is in .308 (and also still in production) :43:

Knife Edge
12-10-2011, 7:23 PM
The better firearm will likely out sell and stay in production, maybe even see service life. An awful lot of, "but if the ACR had this, or that." Being that Bushmaster doesn't MP test barrels or bolts on their AR lineup, why would I expect the budget ACR to be any different? M4 barrel, probably because they had thousands of them sitting around and tools to make more. I agree it has potential, but in typical bushmaster fashion they fall short and charged "just as much as."

If anything I'll wait for the Remington release before passing final judgement on the Masada.

Diabolus
12-12-2011, 7:25 PM
Just because someone's post count is low doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about.



Beat me to it.

See the big evil sarcastic smiley at the bottom of my post?

Don't take yourself too seriously.

MrPlink
12-12-2011, 10:20 PM
The better firearm will likely out sell and stay in production, maybe even see service life.

Im not so sure I would use that alone as a measuring stick of quality, but if thats the case then the debate is over already