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View Full Version : Draco mods and possible legality issues


bbbthreat
02-22-2011, 3:25 PM
Ok here is the basic idea. I have a Draco pistol that I will leave alone for quite a while as funding for extra add on mods is a little low. I know, I know...the Draco is a pistol, but I figured that the Centerfire forum would be better to ask on account of all the AK builders that frequent this forum. But I have to ask some stupid questions, mostly out of curiousity's sake.

I know for a rifle, a folding stock is not permitted unless its overall length when folded is greater than or equal to 30 inches. Some guys mod their folding stocks so that they are permanently fixed in the extended postion. Is it possible to mount a side folding stock to a pistol (Draco) and permanently fix/pin it in a folded position for it to still be legal, and not considered an AW? I know mounting a stock on a Draco would make it fall under an SBR classification, and that equals AW here in California. (Nice to make a Draco look like a Krink.) But if it is pinned to the side, technically it would have a non-functioning stock, which means it should still be considered a pitocl and not an SBR. I know that sounds stupid and pointless to get the added weight and non-usefulness of a pinned side folded stock, just to have a tacticool looking pistol, but was morbidly curious if it was at all legal.

Next question, was what if I wanted to add a fixed stock and get the pistol to an overall length of 30 inches or more, through the use of an extended tube/flashhider, essentially making it into a long rifle; would it require me to re-register the Draco as a long-rifle, or is its registered pistol designation still okay with DOJ?

Honestly, I am probably only going to throw on a single point sling and call it good just to avoid any potential issues, but the imagination started going and...I need to be brought back to reality.:rolleyes: Whatever you guys got on this feel free to point me in the right direction, even if it is a swift kick in the behind.

lazyworm
02-22-2011, 3:31 PM
I think you'd run into problems with the Feds first.
Has a stock means it's a rifle. So the draco would become
a SBR. Big no-no.

MrPlink
02-22-2011, 3:34 PM
Ive seen Dracos, krinks, and other "pitols" with perm folded stocks. Norse armory even offered to build me one once, so you might want to talk to them about it.

IIRC, it is not illegal per se, but the consensus seems to be its best to get a letter from the ATF first.

bigthaiboy
02-22-2011, 3:44 PM
There have been some manufacturers such as IO (with their MP40 pistol) that have fixed a folding stock onto a semi-auto MP40 with it's 9.9" barrel and sold it as a pistol. In order to do this, they had to send in samples to the Tech Branch of the ATF for final approval that they are happy that the stock was permanently non-functional. A letter was then issued to say that the ATF was satified with the configuration and was approved as a pistol. A copy of this letter was sent with every MP40 pistol sold. I think if you just welded a side folder stock onto a pistol, you might run into trouble.

There is no registeration for long guns. So turning a pistol into a long gun would not require any additional paperwork.

RobGR
02-22-2011, 4:01 PM
I've been looking into this as well. There are some great mods by the magpul guys on their Dracos that have definitely inspired me. This is all preliminary research on my part.

- Whether it's a side folder or underfolder, yes, it has to be fixed. Once you attached the stock, your pistol is now a rifle (SBR) and can never be returned to a pistol (status) again.

- By adding the stock it is now an SBR, which is illegal for law abiding citizens in CA. However, like you said, you would add a fake can "permanently" pinned or soldered to the threads on the Draco. I believe the brl on the Draco is 11.5" and you need a 16" brl to be compliant. Thus the can would need to be at least 4.5" but go for 5" to be safe. Furthermore, you have to make sure that the overall length of the firearm is also 30" to be compliant with the State laws.
EDIT: This is the first step to making your pistol a legal rifle, extend the barrel first, then attach the stock. Reason, to avoid creating an illegal SBR in the process.

- Now I've also heard it's suggested to engrave your name and state on the receiver....? This may be legal or just a suggestion. I've been looking for clarification on that point.
EDIT: I'm sorry, confused this with a home built receiver.

I've also been trying to find a source for fake cans for the 7.62x39 caliber, so if anyone knows of a good one, please post a link.

EDIT: 922r compliance now plays in to the DRACO pistol to rifle modification. 922r is no more than 10 imported parts from a list of 20 parts. Here are the parts:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates



-

RobGR
02-22-2011, 4:29 PM
You may want to check this vid too if you haven't already - Modded Draco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FNmaXlptUM&feature=related)

He did a great job customizing it and inspired a lot of "buys" with his single post.

SJgunguy24
02-22-2011, 4:47 PM
First off I have done a couple of Draco conversions. They need to have a barrel extension to get the barrel past 16". That needs to be done before the stock gets installed. I used an AIMR stock and turned a fake can for my personal gun.
If you wanted to fold the stock to keep the pistol classification you need to get an opinion letter from the ATF. AFAIK they only accept samples from licensed manufacturers, and that letter is only good for that gun or series of guns.

RobGR
02-22-2011, 8:00 PM
Great point by SJgunguy24, do the brl first.

"If you wanted to fold the stock to keep the pistol classification you need to get an opinion letter from the ATF. AFAIK they only accept samples from licensed manufacturers, and that letter is only good for that gun or series of guns. " - I do not quite understand that bit though, something I'm completely unaware of due to my lack of knowledge on the subject. However, once you attach a stock it's a rifle or SBR, there's no way around that is there as that is what it seems like is being suggested?


OP, I do not have a Draco, can you measure the entire length of the pistol right now. Please also confirm that the brl is 11.5".

The length of the stock would be a determining factor of the fake can length and the overall length of the firearms, no smaller than 30".

I love this BUILD (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=98&t=129664), but a CTR Magpul stock is 6.75". There are a lot of stock options though, the CTR is simply pimping though. The thing to find is availability & sizing for fake cans for 7.62. I'm also wondering how the threads are after you remove the nut on the Draco....

A build like this will add up quickly too. But damn, it's almost worth it.

Deadon
02-22-2011, 8:38 PM
Ok so I know my pics dont have a lot to do with the thread. But anytime I see a Draco thread I just have to post it.:chris:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/tiller2nv/DSC_0740.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/tiller2nv/DSC_0745-1.jpg

SJgunguy24
02-22-2011, 8:47 PM
The threads are 14X1m lh, the same as any other AK 47. IIRC my can is 5" long and the total barrel length is 16 3/16"
The barrel length is the first thing to take care of IMO, from there you know how short the stock can be.
From what I have read the ATF will only take opinion letters from licensed manufacturers because you had better have a license if your manufacturing firearms. They like to change their opinion from time to time. TGI got a letter to build ppsh43's with a fixed stock and sell them as pistols. Now if you wanted to use the exact method they did then that would be defensible in court. BUT, they (the ATF) make it clear that letter is for that manufacturer only.
I've thought about getting a letter for fixing Krink stocks on some builds, that way you get to keep all of the original parts except the receiver.
As for finding custom cans, I made my own.
I'll post a pic when I get home.

Pic as promised, his is my AIMR and Svetlana.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/AIMR.jpg

RobGR
02-22-2011, 9:00 PM
Thanks for sharing SJgunguy24.

Pics have everything to do with this thread, Deadon.

What you are discussing is for a manufacturer. From what I have read, an owner can modify his/her firearm but it will be reclassified as a rifle, no longer a pistol. One does not have to contact the ATF or the DOJ or deal with SBR laws as long as the brl is modified as well. The same for an AR pistol, if someone adds a stock, the rest better translate to a rifle or be in violation.

RobGR
02-22-2011, 9:17 PM
Damn good thread here about legalities, finally found it -

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=335108

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=354023

-

Anchors
02-22-2011, 9:39 PM
First off I have done a couple of Draco conversions. They need to have a barrel extension to get the barrel past 16". That needs to be done before the stock gets installed. I used an AIMR stock and turned a fake can for my personal gun.
If you wanted to fold the stock to keep the pistol classification you need to get an opinion letter from the ATF. AFAIK they only accept samples from licensed manufacturers, and that letter is only good for that gun or series of guns.

Yup. I concur. You would be best suited turning it into a rifle. But at that point you could just buy a new AK rifle.

Plus remember, once you turn it into a rifle, you can never go back to pistol.

Turn a pistol into a rifle by adding a 16" barrel and stock = Okay.
Going the other direction (rifle to pistol) without an NFA stamp = Felony.

1forall
02-22-2011, 10:12 PM
The Draco is BA the way it is. Just buy an AK if you want a stock on it. :D

RobGR
02-23-2011, 8:56 AM
Nice, SJgunguy24! Is Svetlana an AK 104 with a 12.5" barrel and a fake can?

Honestly, I would love to take a Saiga and mod it over the Draco, leavin the Draco as is. Cut the brl down to 12.5", install the 100 series FS/GB (if I can even find one) and mod with pistol grip. The stock is easy enough to replace. Thread the brl and pin a fake can on it or find a kick azz SVD flashhider or anything that is at least 4" long. The phantom flashhiders look great too. This is all wishful thinking on my part as I do not have the facilities or tools for such a project.... hmmmmm

RobGR
02-23-2011, 9:03 AM
VZ-58 stock on the Draco?

And the wood forward pistol grip reminds me of this great pic I saw in another forum -

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9642/screenshot20110223at858.png

SJgunguy24
02-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Nice, SJgunguy24! Is Svetlana an AK 104 with a 12.5" barrel and a fake can?

Honestly, I would love to take a Saiga and mod it over the Draco, leavin the Draco as is. Cut the brl down to 12.5", install the 100 series FS/GB (if I can even find one) and mod with pistol grip. The stock is easy enough to replace. Thread the brl and pin a fake can on it or find a kick azz SVD flashhider or anything that is at least 4" long. The phantom flashhiders look great too. This is all wishful thinking on my part as I do not have the facilities or tools for such a project.... hmmmmm

Svetlana is a bastard saiga conversion that I worked on in my garage. Did the barrel chop and brake when I was working at PRK last year.

VZ-58 stock on the Draco?

And the wood forward pistol grip reminds me of this great pic I saw in another forum -

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9642/screenshot20110223at858.png
That stock on my gun is a proper AIMR folding stock. It's about the only AK I own that is true to form.

bbbthreat
02-23-2011, 7:58 PM
Great point by SJgunguy24, do the brl first.


OP, I do not have a Draco, can you measure the entire length of the pistol right now. Please also confirm that the brl is 11.5".

The length of the stock would be a determining factor of the fake can length and the overall length of the firearms, no smaller than 30".

I love this BUILD (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=98&t=129664), but a CTR Magpul stock is 6.75". There are a lot of stock options though, the CTR is simply pimping though. The thing to find is availability & sizing for fake cans for 7.62. I'm also wondering how the threads are after you remove the nut on the Draco....

A build like this will add up quickly too. But damn, it's almost worth it.

Okay. The length that I measured was 11.5 in for barrel legnth unless I am a complete tard. I have already dremeled off the muzzle nut, which was a piece of cake. :D Threads were perfect, and cutting the tac weld came out clean as well. I will post pics later.

I have a Krinkov style flash hider for an AK-47 I picked up at the local gun show. Nowhere near long enough:rolleyes:, but I was poking around using Google and found what may be an alternative (i.e., cheap) to buying/locating a fake can/extension.

http://www.cncwarrior.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=170

CNC Warrior makes a both a 2 and 4 in barrel extension in 14x1 LH pitch and combined with the Krink flash hider, I should get the necessarry length. Just would need to silver solder the SOB to make it permanent.

Think that would work?

vintagedude88
02-23-2011, 11:41 PM
USMG has flash hider extensions that will work.
http://www.usmachinegun.com/proddetail.php?prod=AK47-55SS

You'll need to silver sodder it on before you can add the stock legally.

bbbthreat
02-24-2011, 7:43 AM
Okay so I ordered up a 2 in barrel extension, and combined with the Krinkov flashhider, which measures out to 3.5 in, I should get the necessary length. My overall barrel length should be 17 in. If it does not look right, I am out $11.50 for the extension. I remember at the last gun show in Ventura there was a vendor selling extended barrel shrouds in 5.5 and 7.5 extensions in a fake silencer model as well as an uber-extended krinkov style flash hider. Have yet to find anything like that, but some of the links you guys are posting are pretty baller though.:cool:


Also ordered the ACE stock and just going to affix it to the rear pistol plate (after I figure out if I like the barrel extension and then solder it in). Combined with a surplus sling ($5) my overall cost for the mods to the Draco should total $110. May not be the best looking one but I think I am going to go more for function rather than form.

I should have up some "before" pics by this evening.

munkeeboi
02-24-2011, 8:48 AM
Remember that you have to pin and satisfactorily solder the krink flash hider to the extension as well. Finish the barrel pinning before doing anything with the stock.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/munkeeboi/bang/IMG_2492.jpg

bbbthreat
02-24-2011, 5:15 PM
Remember that you have to pin and satisfactorily solder the krink flash hider to the extension as well. Finish the barrel pinning before doing anything with the stock.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/munkeeboi/bang/IMG_2492.jpg

Nice job on yours, and yes I will permanetly fix the barrel before I put the stock on.

Here are some pics just for reference...

Draco with muzzlenut tac dremmeled off.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Bear003.jpg

No chingerring of the threads and only moderate scuffing on the finish.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Bear006.jpg

Before Pic with Krink flashhider.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Bear008.jpg

RobGR
02-24-2011, 11:31 PM
Here are some fake suppressors I've found so far, but would love to see some others as well.

http://usmachinegun.com/proddetail.php?prod=FS-AKMB

http://usmachinegun.com/proddetail.php?prod=FS-AK03

http://www.ftfindustries.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FI&Product_Code=AK-FS&Category_Code=AKAC (weight length??? airsoft???)

I don't have the resources some of the other dudes have on here, AK platform is all new to me. Hopefully there are some better cans out there, but besides length, check on the weight that's being added.

RobGR
02-24-2011, 11:37 PM
Great find and info on the CNC 2" and 4" barrel extension, bbbthreat. I think I'd rather do that than deal with a heavy fake suppressor.

USMG has some great AK parts, will def have to pick something up from them.



-

SJgunguy24
02-25-2011, 12:27 AM
Here are some fake suppressors I've found so far, but would love to see some others as well.

http://usmachinegun.com/proddetail.php?prod=FS-AKMB

http://usmachinegun.com/proddetail.php?prod=FS-AK03

http://www.ftfindustries.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FI&Product_Code=AK-FS&Category_Code=AKAC (weight length??? airsoft???)

I don't have the resources some of the other dudes have on here, AK platform is all new to me. Hopefully there are some better cans out there, but besides length, check on the weight that's being added.

Don't forget those fake cans need to be permanently attached per ATF regs. If they're aluminum you ain't welding anything, and I haven't found a silver solder that will bond with ferrous steel and aluminum, and melt at a high enough temp to satisfy the ATF guidelines.

bbbthreat
02-25-2011, 7:56 AM
Where would one purchase the necessary silver solder? Auto parts, electronic store, welding shop, hardware store, etc.? I think I would rather do that than pin anything in place.

SJgunguy24
02-25-2011, 9:12 AM
Where would one purchase the necessary silver solder? Auto parts, electronic store, welding shop, hardware store, etc.? I think I would rather do that than pin anything in place.

Brownells, the silver solder must not flow below 1200F deg. I haven't found anything that works with ferrous steel and aluminum. Pin and weld is much easier IMO.

bbbthreat
02-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Brownells, the silver solder must not flow below 1200F deg. I haven't found anything that works with ferrous steel and aluminum. Pin and weld is much easier IMO.

Actually you are right about the pin and weld method. Did a little googlefu and the pin and weld method sounds better and better. I have access to a drill press and MIG welder. I will do it myself that way.

I retract my earlier statement about soldering.:o

Shawn L
02-25-2011, 3:39 PM
OP where did you get the Krink flashhider?

9unknown
02-25-2011, 5:31 PM
I love this BUILD (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=98&t=129664),

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0028.jpg

just... wow. That looks so damn cool.

bbbthreat
02-25-2011, 6:30 PM
OP where did you get the Krink flashhider?

I picked up the Krink hider at a gunshow in Ventura, from some Vietnamese lady. Paid $20 for it. Sorry cannot help you out with any other details.

http://www.combathunting.com/AK47_AK74_MAC_MAADI-AK47_Krinkov_Muzzle_Brake.html

Here is a link for one, probably the same one for the same price.

Chunky_lover
02-25-2011, 7:54 PM
ak rifles are a dime a dozen, dont bastardize the draco. keep as a pistol you never know when they may be banned
you can find rifles everywhere, plus the extension you would add to the draco does not help on accuracy as you have no rifling so why even waste the time and money to convert. you should know by now, why have one when you can have two at twice the price.

for me the draco is better then any fixed stock ak I have. I mounted a sling mount into the receiver and the sling sits so sweet, perfect fit to me and no recoil into my body
oh and this cheap $12 flash hider works so good its crazy. Normally I would never add that to a ak, but the flame it had was way to bright, now every once in a while I may see a spark

A factory ak pistol is rare, its basically as close as we can get to a sbr. dont ruin it

Ive never even shot this pistol any other way then the pic shows it works so good
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/AK%2047/Draco/Draco%20High%20Res%20Pics/DracoHigh3.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/AK%2047/Draco/Draco%20High%20Res%20Pics/draco6.jpg

RobGR
02-26-2011, 9:23 AM
Great point, Chunky_lover.

The only reason we are adding the fake cans or muzzle accessories is b/c we cannot SBR our Dracos, otherwise it would be a completely different situation. Having a folding stock on a Draco would be optimal IMO, but that is not legal either. Well, unless I put a freakin 15" muzzle on the firearm... now that would be ridiculous. You, as well as others, have definitely shown that basic sling modifications can control the firearm with it's heavy recoil and for target acquisition.

Nothing wrong with the purest, though that is a Galil pistol grip.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4276/draco1s.jpg

SBR with ACE stock.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4172/dracosbr1.jpg

Chunky_lover
02-26-2011, 9:56 AM
I understand, but spending $600 for the pistol, couple hundred to convert into a rifle with no more accuracy makes no sense when you can keep a pistol and or get the rifle

only difference is the shorter sight radius converting the pistol and no extra rifling

makes no sense
I doubt the converted draco is any shorter then a real rifle

CALI-gula
02-26-2011, 10:40 AM
Funny; when I opened this thread and read the OP's first post I was thinking, uh, this thread is going to go down-hill real fast; yep, all kinds of misinformation and trouble about to arise....

HOWEVER, what a great group of replies and talent in response! I have to hand it to SJgunguy24 especially, but also bbbthreat, and RobGR - good stuff!

While I would not be partial to lengthening any AK pistol (I would always be looking to make it as short as possible) and I would rather start with a rifle receiver, for what is being discussed here, there is a lot of good hypotheticals and good info within.

Thanks for an enjoyable read!

.

munkeeboi
02-26-2011, 11:50 AM
ak rifles are a dime a dozen, dont bastardize the draco. keep as a pistol you never know when they may be banned
you can find rifles everywhere, plus the extension you would add to the draco does not help on accuracy as you have no rifling so why even waste the time and money to convert. you should know by now, why have one when you can have two at twice the price.

for me the draco is better then any fixed stock ak I have. I mounted a sling mount into the receiver and the sling sits so sweet, perfect fit to me and no recoil into my body
oh and this cheap $12 flash hider works so good its crazy. Normally I would never add that to a ak, but the flame it had was way to bright, now every once in a while I may see a spark

A factory ak pistol is rare, its basically as close as we can get to a sbr. dont ruin it

Ive never even shot this pistol any other way then the pic shows it works so good


How can it be bastardized more than what Century did to the original firearms that they used to create the Draco? LOL.

Here's a history lesson on how the Draco even came about. Instead of cutting up the barrels of what we consider to be SBR's (rifle barrel import ban), they used underfolder trunnions to create pistols to get them into the country (pistol barrels are not banned) and created a whole market for something that never existed in Romania.

What SJGunguy, myself and few others are doing is restoring the gun to it's true krink nature. For me it cost just under $600 for my krink rifle (Got the Draco for $350, stock for $150 and labor for $80) and that is well worth it (for those that care) for probably one of the rarest krinkovs in the US. Show me another krink under $700. I also think what we've done is closer to an SBR than anything else. All you have to do is chop off the fake can and you are done (other than any necessary stamps/forms, of course)! If you go with a regular romy folding stock, the conversion is less than $200 on top of the Draco price which is around $400 nowadays

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1930/aimr.jpg

taken from theakforums
Exported as the AIMR (Though the designations "AIR" and "AIM Carbine" have both sometimes been seen used):
Shorter barreled versions of all of the above guns were also designed for tank crews and special forces. The barrel is shortened to 12", the front sight is moved back on the gas block, and a new flash hider is installed. The gas piston is shorter then a standard one at 5 5/8". The gun also receives a new rear leaf sight with markings up to 500m on the 7.62 variant and up to 400m on the 5.45 variant. The 5.56 variant is still relatively new and it is unknown what the leaf sight reads. The first version of these was seen during the Romanian Revolution of 1989. It features a stock that has not been seen on any other AK since. It is a crutch style sidefolding stock that has a hinged buttplate at the end. The whole assembly folds to the left side of the gun instead of the right like on newer models. It has the forward wooden vertical grip handguard on it and is always seen using a 20 round magazine. These also were seen during the revolution with a bell shaped birdcage style flash hider on the barrel.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against pistol versions of rifles (I have several of them and enjoy them), but there will always be differing opinions on what to do and in the end, people will do what people want and can afford. For some it's worth money ...others a waste. Can we just all agree that they are fun to shoot? :)

CALI-gula
02-26-2011, 12:04 PM
How can it be bastardized more than what Century did to the original firearms that they used to create the Draco? LOL.



HA HA! I was thinking the same thing when I first read this thread and someone mentioned bastardizing the Draco! :D

.

Chunky_lover
02-26-2011, 12:09 PM
Well maybe in another state you can get for $300, I just got mine few months ago at riflegear for about $600, same cost as a wasr rifle. Last gun show I went to some store wanted $700
Also mine doesnt have an underfolder trunnion, its all solid. I know some do have that though. Some would say mine still is an underfolder thats not drilled out but im not getting into all that. I think the stock is overrated. Especially a fixed stock/longer barrel, you loose all the concealment the draco offers. Now if you could have a folding stock thats a different story.

But as I see it, it is a factory made pistol, not some home made one. Plus even has the magic mag well dimples and 3rd hole stampings. Do whatever you want.
I love having an ak pistol, because im sure they along with ar pistols will be on a ban list someday, and when the panic buying happens you will be thinking I was lucky to get one for $300. I was lucky to get one here in Ca for $600.

Chunky_lover
02-26-2011, 12:12 PM
HA HA! I was thinking the same thing when I first read this thread and someone mentioned bastardizing the Draco! :D

.


because they are brand new factory built. Mine is all matching numbers. I think the C models are built from parts, the non c is all new parts which is what I have.

I would pick a new factory built over a parts build any day

Tangorox
02-26-2011, 8:58 PM
Chunky Lover,

Nice Draco bro! I did get my mine not too long ago. The upper wood handguard was changed to ultimak rail...wished I could change it back...well probably one day. Nice sling! Are those original ones?

Chunky_lover
02-26-2011, 9:05 PM
original wood, or sling.
It came with the wood, all I did was add 1 coat of stain, that didnt take. Then about 50 coats of tung oil.
The sling was what was sold as battlefield pickup, but it was brand new looking so who knows about that. Its a little used looking now though, its broken in nicely.

I had also steel wooled the finish and reblued it so it came out darker and got rid of the splotchy look it came with. Turned out nice I think
Pics make it look lighter then in person, also wood has darkened more since then too

RobGR
03-01-2011, 5:28 PM
Any ammo recommendations or, rather, anyone have any issues with any particular ammo for their Draco?

I just ordered some yugo brass surplus from AIM. Corrosive but that's not an issue.


.

Chunky_lover
03-01-2011, 5:32 PM
ive ran like 6 brands of that russian type ammo, hp whatever I had all worked. I wanted to make sure incase I bought a huge case of it

But I use nothing but that white box yuslanic or whatever the name is, looks like wolf made in the same area or who knows the same factory

go to a store and buy 1 box of each brand just to test it if you worry about compatibility like I do

RobGR
03-16-2011, 3:47 PM
We had a ton of fun shooting my Draco over the weekend. Still considering mods but the single point sling or just a two point sling is something I'm gonna have to try. Mounted a rail and want to zero a red dot the next time I go out.

I had one hiccup, the bolt carrier/bolt stopped halfway up the receiver. I thought I'd finished my last round, looked down and the bolt was open with a bullet waiting to be chambered. I slammed the bolt carrier forward, it fired perfectly. My spent cartridges only eject 2-3 ft away on the Draco, while my SGL31 kicks them 15-25 ft away. I might have some burrs on the rail or something, but a few more rounds will smooth it out. No FTEs or FTF after 140rnds.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4381/gunsb.jpg

bbbthreat
03-17-2011, 9:37 PM
Went with a FTF Industries fake suppressor to get my overall length. Drilled, pinned, and welded it with no issues. Then drilled and tapped to attach my ACE stock. Purchased and used extra parts I had lying aroud to get my 922r compliance. (The mag is just a body, no internals in it.) All said and done, I am only in it $150 in total for parts. Whatcha think? Sorry for the bad pics. I will get better ones up.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Mod.jpg

Here is what it looked like with the cnc warrior extension with the Krink brake. Wasn't to thrilled with it, but something to think about for later.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/ext.jpg

RobGR
03-21-2011, 10:38 AM
Went with a FTF Industries fake suppressor to get my overall length. Drilled, pinned, and welded it with no issues. Then drilled and tapped to attach my ACE stock. Purchased and used extra parts I had lying aroud to get my 922r compliance. (The mag is just a body, no internals in it.) All said and done, I am only in it $150 in total for parts. Whatcha think? Sorry for the bad pics. I will get better ones up.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Mod.jpg


I digging this setup, especially if you can keep the wood furniture. Looking good.

munkeeboi
03-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Nice

beanz2
03-21-2011, 1:15 PM
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/AK%2047/Draco/Draco%20High%20Res%20Pics/DracoHigh3.jpg





http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4276/draco1s.jpg


Those are cool Dracos :cool2: May I ask how you guys got rid of the mag lock? I'd love to do the same for mine. I kept hearing I have to have a mag lock since it has a second handgrip and the magazine is not inside the pistol grip. Thanks

Tangorox
03-21-2011, 2:31 PM
original wood, or sling.
I had also steel wooled the finish and reblued it so it came out darker and got rid of the splotchy look it came with. Turned out nice I think
Pics make it look lighter then in person, also wood has darkened more since then too

Hey CL...can you PM me the procedure in blue above if you don't mind. I guess this would be my only upkeep done to my Draco. Also I have heard about the FCG retaining plate. Is this a difficult task to do? Anyway here's the pistol I got not too long ago.

bbbthreat
03-25-2011, 9:58 PM
Slightly better pics.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Draco003.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Draco001.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Draco002.jpg
Close up of the FTF fake suppressor.

I like it. Definitely worth it all.

RobGR
03-26-2011, 3:17 PM
Those are cool Dracos :cool2: May I ask how you guys got rid of the mag lock? I'd love to do the same for mine. I kept hearing I have to have a mag lock since it has a second handgrip and the magazine is not inside the pistol grip. Thanks

They were photographed outside of CA. All Dracos have to have bullet buttons whilst under the Star & Bear flag.... huh, seems to be kind of appropriate to own AKs in CA when one considers the imagery on our state flag, ha.

RobGR
03-26-2011, 3:25 PM
That fake can looks badazz, bbbthreat. Nicely done. Have you taken it out yet? If yes, let us know how it performed.

Hey CL...can you PM me the procedure in blue above if you don't mind. I guess this would be my only upkeep done to my Draco.

Share the bluing process with all of us if you don't mind. I'm sure I can google it, but just curious, everyone has different tips. I was going to use engine paint and then bake it for 20 mins, but not too keen on that.

timdps
03-26-2011, 5:53 PM
Remember that you have to pin and satisfactorily solder the krink flash hider to the extension as well. Finish the barrel pinning before doing anything with the stock.


Very good advice! :-) However, it seems like one would need to do the stock immediately after doing the barrel extension because after doing the barrel extension you have a rifle (barrel over 16") that is under the 30" minimum for a centerfire rifle.

Tim

RobGR
03-26-2011, 7:01 PM
Very good advice! :-) However, it seems like one would need to do the stock immediately after doing the barrel extension because after doing the barrel extension you have a rifle (barrel over 16") that is under the 30" minimum for a centerfire rifle.

Tim

I thought only adding the stock would then reclassify the AK pistol to rifle status or SBR. Because the Draco is sold as a pistol, is it State or Federal law that states that a pistol with a permanent extension lengthening it's barrel to 16" + is now to be legally considered a rifle? I will freely admit I am not up to par with pistol laws, therefore I appreciate your input.


.

Quiet
03-26-2011, 7:22 PM
Those are cool Dracos :cool2: May I ask how you guys got rid of the mag lock? I'd love to do the same for mine. I kept hearing I have to have a mag lock since it has a second handgrip and the magazine is not inside the pistol grip. Thanks

While in CA, a maglock is mandatory for AK pistol.

If you don't like how your current maglock looks, you could opt for the morepoop4u's AK maglock (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36731&highlight=morepoop4u+mag+lock).

Chunky_lover
05-08-2011, 10:53 AM
I rock the morepoop4 u in most my pics, but in reality I use a solartactical mag lock.

ghost
05-08-2011, 3:18 PM
Well maybe in another state you can get for $300, I just got mine few months ago at riflegear for about $600, same cost as a wasr rifle. Last gun show I went to some store wanted $700
Also mine doesnt have an underfolder trunnion, its all solid. I know some do have that though. Some would say mine still is an underfolder thats not drilled out but im not getting into all that. I think the stock is overrated. Especially a fixed stock/longer barrel, you loose all the concealment the draco offers. Now if you could have a folding stock thats a different story.

But as I see it, it is a factory made pistol, not some home made one. Plus even has the magic mag well dimples and 3rd hole stampings. Do whatever you want.
I love having an ak pistol, because im sure they along with ar pistols will be on a ban list someday, and when the panic buying happens you will be thinking I was lucky to get one for $300. I was lucky to get one here in Ca for $600.


yeah i picked up my draco from j&g sales last december at the sar show for $279.00+tax,it came out to $327.XX otd:D
i sbr'd it with an underfolder for under $800.00;)

cali_armz
05-08-2011, 3:53 PM
Ok here is the basic idea. I have a Draco pistol that I will leave alone for quite a while as funding for extra add on mods is a little low. I know, I know...the Draco is a pistol, but I figured that the Centerfire forum would be better to ask on account of all the AK builders that frequent this forum. But I have to ask some stupid questions, mostly out of curiousity's sake.

I know for a rifle, a folding stock is not permitted unless its overall length when folded is greater than or equal to 30 inches. Some guys mod their folding stocks so that they are permanently fixed in the extended postion. Is it possible to mount a side folding stock to a pistol (Draco) and permanently fix/pin it in a folded position for it to still be legal, and not considered an AW? I know mounting a stock on a Draco would make it fall under an SBR classification, and that equals AW here in California. (Nice to make a Draco look like a Krink.) But if it is pinned to the side, technically it would have a non-functioning stock, which means it should still be considered a pitocl and not an SBR. I know that sounds stupid and pointless to get the added weight and non-usefulness of a pinned side folded stock, just to have a tacticool looking pistol, but was morbidly curious if it was at all legal.

Next question, was what if I wanted to add a fixed stock and get the pistol to an overall length of 30 inches or more, through the use of an extended tube/flashhider, essentially making it into a long rifle; would it require me to re-register the Draco as a long-rifle, or is its registered pistol designation still okay with DOJ?

Honestly, I am probably only going to throw on a single point sling and call it good just to avoid any potential issues, but the imagination started going and...I need to be brought back to reality.:rolleyes: Whatever you guys got on this feel free to point me in the right direction, even if it is a swift kick in the behind.

personally, i think that if you want a ca legal AK with a fixed stock it would be better to buy a full size AK. you could modify your draco, but in order for it to be legal with a rifle stock, you need a 16" barrel, which is what the full size AK has on it. plus, once you convert it to a rifle with 16" barrel, you can never change it back to its original pistol configuration.

cali_armz
05-08-2011, 3:57 PM
Slightly better pics.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Draco003.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Draco001.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u42/bbbthreat/Draco002.jpg
Close up of the FTF fake suppressor.

I like it. Definitely worth it all.

ehh, i guess my comment was a little late. i gotta say though, thats really nice!!

Chunky_lover
05-08-2011, 5:44 PM
yeah i picked up my draco from j&g sales last december at the sar show for $279.00+tax,it came out to $327.XX otd:D
i sbr'd it with an underfolder for under $800.00;)

ok? how does that apply to Ca
any other state they are cheap, you have to pay the Ca tax which is double the normal world price

RobGR
05-09-2011, 9:58 AM
yeah i picked up my draco from j&g sales last december at the sar show for $279.00+tax,it came out to $327.XX otd:D
i sbr'd it with an underfolder for under $800.00;)

Law abiding citizens cannot SBR in CA either or, at least, it's almost impossible. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong... that isn't LEO or in the movie industry.

Our only option is to extend the barrel with a fake can, muzzle brake or flash suppressor. Then we can add a stock.

stormy_clothing
05-09-2011, 2:21 PM
To the op you know you can't put any stock on a pistol at all and have it be anything less than an sbr - you could add 4.5inch long muzzle break and try to register it as one but as soon as you've attached the stock you've broken the law.

theres no reason to try and get around this law the draco is nowhere near a regular ak in terms of usability only as a pistol used like an sm might be for personal defense does it make any sense.

you already know these things so please stop trying to cheat the system you'll only end up explaining yourself to people that can screw up your life and not think twice or care what you say.

Also dont do like these other morons do an wedge a piece of nylon between the receiver and the grip - it wont hang right it will rub on your hand and it looks dumb - get a uncle mikes or some other sling mount and drill through the rear trunion.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5784/20100324194914.jpg

Chunky_lover
05-09-2011, 3:45 PM
drill into the receiver for the sling
it also goes into the trunnion so the receiver wont bust out

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/AK%2047/Draco/DracoHigh3.jpg

ghost
05-09-2011, 3:46 PM
ok? how does that apply to Ca
any other state they are cheap, you have to pay the Ca tax which is double the normal world price



it actually doesnt apply to ca,that wasnt my point.

Chunky_lover
05-09-2011, 4:00 PM
well seeing how this is a CALifornia GUNS site we dont need everyone out of state rubbing there weapons and prices in our face. We know whats out there, and what they cost.

RobGR
05-09-2011, 5:07 PM
To the op you know you can't put any stock on a pistol at all and have it be anything less than an sbr - you could add 4.5inch long muzzle break and try to register it as one but as soon as you've attached the stock you've broken the law.

theres no reason to try and get around this law the draco is nowhere near a regular ak in terms of usability only as a pistol used like an sm might be for personal defense does it make any sense.

you already know these things so please stop trying to cheat the system you'll only end up explaining yourself to people that can screw up your life and not think twice or care what you say.


No one is getting around the law or cheating the system, we have simply been contributing to a thread about legally modifying the Draco. There's nothing wrong with that at all. And in terms of usability, the Draco would be perfect if it had a folding stock and SBRed... which is not legal in CA, as we are all well aware of, therefore the fixed stocks and barrel extensions.

RobGR
05-09-2011, 5:09 PM
And he's already modified his Draco, along with many other Calgunners and gun owners in the US of A.

I don't understand this sudden negative turn in what was an informative and constructive thread.

Joe
05-09-2011, 5:22 PM
Great information in this thread! Thanks all for your contributions. I'll be picking up a draco soon.

ghost
05-10-2011, 11:06 AM
well seeing how this is a CALifornia GUNS site we dont need everyone out of state rubbing there weapons and prices in our face. We know whats out there, and what they cost.



youre taking this completely over and beyond.i just saw what people said they paid for theirs and want to share what i paid for mine.if you want to take it the wrong way or make something big out of it more power to you.i did live in ca before i moved out here a year,so yeah i feel your pain about paying double or more for firearms.

RobGR
05-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Drilled and tapped the rear trunnion yesterday and installed an Ace "quiet" sling swivel. I used my buddy's drill press, so it was a breeze to do. Hard finding the drill and tap size I need though and ended up having to buy a set from Kobalt at Lowes. Went really slow when tapping the hole, staying at the center and applying the least amount of torque, lots of oil and no breaks.

Fired a Draco with a stock a week ago and hope the sling configuration has as much control. Last thing I need to do is dremel the barrel nut off and install a flash hider. Will post a photo then. Good times.

RobGR
05-18-2011, 10:26 AM
Hey guys, been reading about the threaded brl on the AK pistol and want to be clear that I'm in compliance.

Based off of another thread, Mach stated "A threaded barrel on a handgun is moot when the handgun has a locked 10 round magazine. Which the AK (and AR) pistol requires ALL of the time. "

Therefore, I can simply have muzzle attachments / flash hider attached without permanently spot welding or soldering?

Quiet
05-18-2011, 7:13 PM
Hey guys, been reading about the threaded brl on the AK pistol and want to be clear that I'm in compliance.

Based off of another thread, Mach stated "A threaded barrel on a handgun is moot when the handgun has a locked 10 round magazine. Which the AK (and AR) pistol requires ALL of the time. "

Therefore, I can simply have muzzle attachments / flash hider attached without permanently spot welding or soldering?

Yes.

RobGR
06-04-2011, 3:25 PM
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5760/dsc05288lx.jpg

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/495/dsc05279i.jpg

Pretty much done for now.

_

Jeepers
06-04-2011, 3:32 PM
send a letter off to batfe and ask if it can be done, the KP44 pistols have welded closed stocks
http://militarygunsupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=131

K9paulc
06-04-2011, 4:05 PM
A2 birdcage FH & on an AK?...... talk about purist!:thumbsup: Just 'sayin.

Cool Pistols though. More of a novelty item than practical. How concealable does an AK need be? If a time comes when you need to bust out an AK, you certainly would'nt be concerned with concealability.

RobGR
06-05-2011, 11:08 AM
A2 birdcage FH & on an AK?...... talk about purist!:thumbsup: Just 'sayin.

Cool Pistols though. More of a novelty item than practical. How concealable does an AK need be? If a time comes when you need to bust out an AK, you certainly would'nt be concerned with concealability.

Definitely not a purist as I'm also using a polymer 10/30 mag, a hogue/ergo grip, a modded rail and I did not attempt to rebuilt the Draco like SJgunguy24 and munkeeboi in the original AIMR tank or BTR configuration. See page 1 for their attention to history and details.

I'm not worried about concealing anything. Ideally this firearm would be SBRed, but that ain't gonna happen in CA. So, I'm sticking with the sling stabilizer method for a while per Chunky Lover.

$550 OTD with tax + dros
$70 rail
$16 muzzle brake
$25 hogue grip
$0.20 fine grit sand paper, sand down the bolt carrier rails (burrs everywhere!)
$40 to drill & tap the rear trunnion
$10 360˚ swivel
$25 Tapco G2 single hook TG (haven't installed)
$20 for new windage/elevation tool & PB blaster
$15 Polish sling

It's been a little investment, a deadly CQB firearm and most definitely not a toy. The 7.62x39 rnd is perfect in this configuration, but the law is limiting in allowing me to build it the way I want to.

Honestly, I'd love to pick up another one... but must resist the temptation....

_

hefedehefe
06-06-2011, 10:43 AM
I understand, but spending $600 for the pistol, couple hundred to convert into a rifle with no more accuracy makes no sense when you can keep a pistol and or get the rifle

only difference is the shorter sight radius converting the pistol and no extra rifling

makes no sense
I doubt the converted draco is any shorter then a real rifle

What flash hider is that?

RobGR
07-09-2011, 9:09 PM
Had to share this one, guys.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9459/800pxdcbshootingromania.jpg

Per wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_Mitralier%C4%83_model_1963/1965#PM_md._90

Gotta love that receiver.... talk about our "bastardized" versions. I can't even imagine shooting mine full auto, ha!

RobGR
11-20-2011, 12:54 PM
Ha! Lame music but great side cam view and restoration of the AIMR, ohhh to SBR. I'm also going to assume she's blind or one of the worst shots ever, though she has a solid stance and grip... I don't get it.

KBFQYUMlbtY