PDA

View Full Version : Swiss vote to keep guns at home


vantec08
02-13-2011, 8:23 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110213/wl_afp/switzerlandreferendumweaponsmilitary_2011021313375 7


17 of 26 cantons (states) - -- pretty clear

Cobrafreak
02-13-2011, 8:24 AM
I love that place. I'm going there on a future vacation, that is for sure!

Legasat
02-13-2011, 8:26 AM
Smart people...

NotEnufGarage
02-13-2011, 8:31 AM
Good chocolates.. Good banks.. Good firearms laws.. Gotta love them Swiss.

Lrchops
02-13-2011, 8:44 AM
Switzerland actually is a left wing state. The only thing they do right is the firearms laws. You would hate living there. THey have big Gov't regulations and are mostly run by liberals. The only reason they have decent gun laws is because they are such a small country and traditionally relied on the popoulation to defend her. Swiss born citizens are required to be in the military and they keep thier military issue rifles.

We have friends that are Swiss Citizens and they all want ot move to the United States because it is far too left wing in Switzerland. Don't let the gun laws fool you. Do your research!

dreamerof1
02-13-2011, 8:47 AM
Smart people...

(Swiss) society is built on trust between the citizen and the state, he argued.

"If we take away the weapon, which represents this trust, that means that we are breaking the sacred union between democracy and citizen."

yup!

afro
02-13-2011, 8:55 AM
Woo Swiss.

NoahTall
02-13-2011, 9:07 AM
Good chocolates.. Good banks.. Good firearms laws.. Gotta love them Swiss.

Wow. Exactly what I was going to say before I even clicked on the post! :D

CalBear
02-13-2011, 9:17 AM
Good for the Swiss. I just hope they can hold out in the future. They're a historically independent nation surrounded by a bunch of controlling statists. It seems like ~40% of their country already fits that bill.

It makes sense right? If nothing is broken in your country, and you have one of the highest qualities of life in the world, why wouldn't you want to abandon your history, ban guns, and join the EU? :rolleyes:

jpigeon
02-13-2011, 9:37 AM
At least they got one thing right...

Centurion_D
02-13-2011, 9:44 AM
Outta curiosity what is the issued fighting rifle of the swiss army?

Stonewalker
02-13-2011, 9:48 AM
Alright! I was worried about that vote, it's good to see another country keeping their gun culture alive even against the behest of the EU and the UN.

FTA:
Xavier Schwitzguebel, an officer in the Swiss army when he is on compulsory military service, pointed out that gun culture is a tradition here.

"If the yes goes through, it really risks destroying the country," he warned ahead of the vote.

Swiss society is built on trust between the citizen and the state, he argued.

"If we take away the weapon, which represents this trust, that means that we are breaking the sacred union between democracy and citizen."

You'd never catch a representative of the military saying something like that here!

Jack L
02-13-2011, 9:58 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110213/wl_afp/switzerlandreferendumweaponsmilitary_2011021313375 7


17 of 26 cantons (states) - -- pretty clear

This article needs to be sent to Mayor Bloomberg and Senator deLeon, and of course posted on the NRA page as an example of smart firearms law. For every article the anti's write, a pro article should be published. I do my best to write my local politicians on country and state level.

Thanks for the post.

xenophobe
02-13-2011, 10:01 AM
Of course they do. Nobody with firearms rights and a sound mind want those rights stripped from them.

CalBear
02-13-2011, 10:06 AM
Voting results:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/pore/va/20110213/det554.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgM9f7lhMicsi5rTuVd2T2y844BvA

Crude results map:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2599/swissmap.png

As one might expect, the French-speaking cantons voted yes, with the exception of Valais and Fribourg. Of the Swiss-German speaking cantons, only Basel-Stadt and Zurich voted yes (both are very urban). Other German cantons and Italian Ticino voted no. The small cantons in central / eastern areas said no in a big way.

Here's the stupidity and deceit of the antis, even in Switzerland:

Advocates of the ban believe that the easy availability of weapons poses a danger particularly for suicidal people.

Rates of suicide using firearms in Switzerland are three times higher than in the rest of Europe, said Anne-Marie Trabichet, from Stop Suicide, one of the groups that launched the initiative.
Right... except here is the overall ranking of suicides in (& near) Europe:

Lithuania
Belarus
Russia
Ukraine
Hungary
Latvia
Slovenia
Serbia & Montenegro
Finland
Belgium
France
Estonia
Moldova
Poland
Switzerland

Sure if you want to kill yourself, and you have a gun, it might be the easiest way. But if you don't, it's just as easy to slit your wrists, OD, jump off a building, etc. Last I checked, razor blades and tall buildings weren't targets for bans.

BigDogatPlay
02-13-2011, 10:33 AM
I love that place. I'm going there on a future vacation, that is for sure!

Take three suitcases.... one for your clothes and two full of money. Everything is hella expensive there.

+1 for the Swiss people standing up for their freedom.

smtimelevi
02-13-2011, 10:35 AM
Outta curiosity what is the issued fighting rifle of the swiss army?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550

Zak
02-13-2011, 11:45 AM
Here's an excerpt from a WSJ article about it.

Violent crime in Switzerland is otherwise low.

Switzerland in 2008 had a rate of 0.7 murders per 100,000 people, compared to 1.4 for France, 1.2 for England & Wales and 5.2 for the U.S., according to the United Nations.

My question is, why were they trying to fix something that wasn't broken anyway?

Window_Seat
02-13-2011, 11:52 AM
This article needs to be sent to Mayor Bloomberg and Senator deLeon, and of course posted on the NRA page as an example of smart firearms law. For every article the anti's write, a pro article should be published. I do my best to write my local politicians on country and state level.

Thanks for the post.

Tyrant dictators don't care what the majority of citizens don't/want. It's being proven over & over at the security screening sections of airports everyday.

Erik.

15thaf5thbw
02-13-2011, 1:07 PM
Here's an excerpt from a WSJ article about it. My question is, why were they trying to fix something that wasn't broken anyway?

Because of the same insipid, irrational, fear-based mentallity that all "liberal thinkers" appear to have, world-wide.

Someone else posted this link once ... worth reading: http://www.gunlaws.com/Hoplophobia%20Analysis.htm

The Shadow
02-13-2011, 1:08 PM
This article needs to be sent to Mayor Bloomberg and Senator deLeon, and of course posted on the NRA page as an example of smart firearms law. For every article the anti's write, a pro article should be published. I do my best to write my local politicians on country and state level.

Thanks for the post.

Cam Edawards of NRA News is aware of it and will be discussing this tomorrow night. So tune in either on Sirius Radio (144) or NRA News at 6 p.m.

TimRB
02-13-2011, 1:09 PM
By American shooters' standards, Switzerland does NOT have good gun laws. In fact, California looks like Shangri-La by comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Permit required to buy gun; one gun per permit
Guns registered
"Justification" required to transport a gun
Ammo sales registered, hollow-points illegal except for hunting
Airsoft and replica guns regulated

Tim

nick
02-13-2011, 1:13 PM
Good news. Mind you, it'll be brought up again and again until it somehow passes.

pitchbaby
02-13-2011, 1:21 PM
Not that I care to visit Europe anytime soon, but at least there is a halfway decent place to go.

SickofSoCal
02-13-2011, 1:40 PM
Well, Switzerland isn't perfect on guns by any standard......but at least they smacked down the UN/EU/NGO attempt to rake away the guns.

Swiss
02-13-2011, 1:51 PM
I'm raising a glass of schnapps (kirsch or kreuter) in celebration of common sense!

CalBear
02-13-2011, 2:07 PM
Good news. Mind you, it'll be brought up again and again until it somehow passes.

As I posted in the off topic thread:

Right now, the result is 56.3% No, but Switzerland requires a double majority -- population and Cantons -- for referendums.

Full Cantons have 1 vote a piece, but each half of the "half Canton pairs":

-Obwald/Nidwald
-Bāle-Ville/Bāle-Campagne
-Appenzell Rhodes-Ext./Appenzell Rhodes-Int.

which were split centuries ago, only have 1/2 vote each. This system is interesting, because there are wildly different representation levels.

Appenzell Innerrhoden - 15,500, 1/2 vote
Uri - 35,000, 1 vote
Bāle-Campagne - 270,000, 1/2 vote
Zürich - 1.3 million, 1

In other words, Canton representation ranges from .07 votes / 100,000 to 3.2 votes / 100,000 (46x higher).

So while 56.3% may seem like a close call, the Canton tally was 15+5/2 (17.5) to 5+1/2 (5.5). In other words, the Canton vote was 76% NO. The system prevents a large urban area from holding all control of the country. It gives a tremendous advantage to the smaller Cantons, and makes traditional Swiss values hard to change.

Their voting system is designed sort of like our Senate. It gives power to regions, as opposed to sheer masses. Considering that fact, it could take a long time for that to come true. But I do agree, the antis are relentless.

Dreaded Claymore
02-13-2011, 4:01 PM
Now I can breathe a HUGE sigh of relief. Thank the gods!

jdberger
02-13-2011, 9:00 PM
Yea! Swiss!

Great ad campaign, too.

http://www.prisma-hsg.ch/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/110104_plakat-450x337.jpg

Porterhouse
02-14-2011, 12:12 AM
Switzerland actually is a left wing state. The only thing they do right is the firearms laws. You would hate living there. THey have big Gov't regulations and are mostly run by liberals. The only reason they have decent gun laws is because they are such a small country and traditionally relied on the popoulation to defend her. Swiss born citizens are required to be in the military and they keep thier military issue rifles.

We have friends that are Swiss Citizens and they all want ot move to the United States because it is far too left wing in Switzerland. Don't let the gun laws fool you. Do your research!

Bingo. It's Europe after all. Look at their tax rates too. While they are not quite at Scandinavian levels, they are a helluva lot higher than CA/USA.

Mimi_T
02-14-2011, 8:04 AM
The article starting with "Switzerland, which has the highest rate of suicide by firearms in Europe" is so irritating and stupid...

I like how someone in the comments joked that the country with the highest suicide by hanging should ban ropes and cords. :D

Let's hope it's not going to be like in Brazil, where they had a similar vote (and a similar really nice ad campaign showing criminals rejoicing at the thought of a gun ban), where the population voted in huge majority to keep the guns... and just afterwards, the government decided they didn't like the results of the vote and passed the "law of public disarmament", in complete disregard for the wishes of the people or any notion of democracy.

(People can still have guns in Brazil, but the government purposefully makes it almost impossible to obtain a permit, you need to apply for a license each time you need to transport it, including even the first time between the shop and your home after buying it, the largest caliber available to the general public is .38, and other such ridiculous limits.)

Alan Block
02-14-2011, 9:48 AM
I don't think of Switzerland as liberal. Women did not get the vote until 1971. They are very traditional, especially in the rural areas and Uri is regarded similarly to how we regard Arkansas.

Digital_Boy
02-14-2011, 11:56 AM
Outta curiosity what is the issued fighting rifle of the swiss army?

The SIG 550 IIRC, the un-neutered version that inspired the 556 for export sales.

The previous issue rifle was the SIG SG 510.

bigstick61
02-14-2011, 2:59 PM
The SIG 550 IIRC, the un-neutered version that inspired the 556 for export sales.

The previous issue rifle was the SIG SG 510.

Some of the militiamen in the older tiers still use the StG-57 (SIG-510).


I am personally very happy to hear that the vote was won by the right side. Switzerland is among the freest countries in the world and their right to keep and bear arms combined with having a truly effective militia system is a major part of why, not to mention their cultural affinity with federalism, local rule, etc. They are free in spite of their democracy (a tool which was nearly used to curtail freedom in this case).

JimWest
02-14-2011, 6:46 PM
Yea! Swiss!

Great ad campaign, too.

http://www.prisma-hsg.ch/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/110104_plakat-450x337.jpg

I like the illustration on the right. I could make some money with that on a T-shirt. :yes:

emilio
02-14-2011, 7:40 PM
hooray for the Swiss! yeah, their social politics are a little more in-line with the rest of Europe, but i see that as a good thing: they're showing that firearm ownership and self-defense aren't necessarily about American definitions of conservative and liberal. they're about a human right to self-defense.

about 10 years ago i visited a friend there and hung out with her friend that had done his military service. i got to see and check out his Sig, which is a fairly beefy gun, a small sealed can of ammo (i think just enough for 2-3 mags), and his gas mask. apparently at the time the rules had already been scaled back in that men usually had the guns at home until age 44, but it had been lowered to the mid-30's (which may just be a budget thing since it ties up more guns out of active service). he said that once a year it was inspected, as were his cans of ammo and gas mask filters to make sure they weren't tampered with. i can't remember if the annual inspection also included qualification, but he did say they had to re-qual periodically. he said that you definitely can not shoot the ammo they give you - apparently they're pretty serious about that - but you can shoot the rifle with your own ammo.

the few folks i talked to about gun ownership made it sound like a non-issue, and this was in Basel: pretty much every house has a service rifle, many people know how to shoot, Switzerland needs some insurance for neutrality, no big deal. i think it became more of an issue after a couple of high-profile shootings, including a serious attack (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/27/newsid_2539000/2539769.stm) at a regional government building.

i also recall being in a gun shop and seeing some select-fire guns in the case. i think their general gun ownership laws are more restrictive than ours, but guns we would call Class III are more accessible.

- emilio

Dreaded Claymore
02-14-2011, 11:48 PM
I don't think of Switzerland as liberal. Women did not get the vote until 1971.

And people ask me why I'm a liberal...

Smokeybehr
02-15-2011, 10:14 AM
Yea! Swiss!

Great ad campaign, too.

http://www.prisma-hsg.ch/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/110104_plakat-450x337.jpg

I don't speak German, but I can pick up on a few basic phrases and ideas, and that poster is the win! We need something like that every time a gun control law is proposed.

tube_ee
02-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Switzerland actually is a left wing state.

There's another interesting non-left-wing aspect to Switzerland. Health Care.

They do have universal coverage, and costs are quite low.

But how they got there is very interesting.

The basic health-care system in Switzerland is 100% private. Hospitals, doctors, and insurance.

The only thing they did was to require companies to offer a basic package of health insurance, that covers just about everything that one needs (as opposed to wants)), on a not-for-profit basis.

That's it. That's all they needed.

Non-essential services are all on a for-profit business model. You can pay extra for a private room in a hospital, for some name-brand medications (where a cheaper alternative works as welll,) for nonreconstructive cosmetic surgery, even, I think, for more rapid treatments where time is not of the essence. (Think hip replacement here... you need it, but you don't need it now.

From this model the Swiss have developed a system that covers everyone, provides some of the best care in the world, allows for top-flight medical research, costs less than 200 dollars a month for a family of four.....

and it isn't run by the government.

--Shannon