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awall919
02-12-2011, 6:53 AM
Hello Cal-Gunners. i searched the CALWIKI and search engine am still with questions regarding locked unloaded concealed carry.

Is it illegal to have your key taped inside the lock of your lucc container?

Is it legal to have loaded magazines with unexpended ammo concealed on your person while your guns are locked away unloaded in a hard case?

FYI: weapon in question was locked unloaded with an unloaded magazine inserted into the mag well concealed in a hard gun case locked by key lock, which had the key taped in the lock. Also there were two loaded mags on my person.

Was I outside of any law? if so could you inform me of what PC i am possibly guilty of breaking with regards to pc12025. I believe i followed pc12026.1 exactly but id like a second, third fourth ect. opinion.
Thank you all for you ntime and efforts on my behalf.

Awall919

Experimentalist
02-12-2011, 8:01 AM
I doubt there is a legal standard for what constitutes a "locked container", but the subject has been discussed at length here.

If I understand you correctly the key was taped in the lock such that a simple twist of the key would unlock the container. Clearly this modification has changed the container such that it no longer offers any security. I mean, the whole idea of a locked container is that it offers some degree of denial to a random person trying to get in.

Look at it this way: if you tape the key in the lock that mechanism no longer offers any sort of access denial, it becomes a simple latch. Twist the key and it opens. The "L" in "LUCC" has been changed from "locked" to "latched", and thus you were illegally carrying concealed.

I'm not a lawyer, but that's how I see it.

hoffmang
02-12-2011, 10:03 AM
1. I wouldn't tape the key into the lock - seems to defeat "locked."

2. An unloaded handgun in a locked container can have magazines full of rounds inside or outside the locked container concealed or unconcealed.

-Gene

stix213
02-12-2011, 10:06 AM
I agree with Experimentalist. If a LEO can just pick up your "locked case" and open it immediately it is clearly not locked. Your example of taping the key inside the lock is the same as using a combination lock with it already set to the combination. You're looking at a violation of PC 12025 because having a concealed handgun in a case that is not locked is not utilizing any exemption in 12026.1 or 12026.2

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html

I don't think there is any previous ruling on if defeating a lock by securing the key within the lock still constitutes a locked container though. Its not explained in the PC, and I am not aware of any previous case fought on those grounds (though IANAL). I'm just pretty sure a judge and jury aren't going to agree that means its still locked though. You'll certainly grab a LEO's attention if they see that.

dave1947
02-12-2011, 3:14 PM
Get a 3 digit combination lock, set comno to 1-0-0 and carry with it set on 0-0-0 real easy to open fast and still locked

Window_Seat
02-12-2011, 3:30 PM
1. I wouldn't tape the key into the lock - seems to defeat "locked."

-Gene

^^ETA To quote:

I don't disagree with Gene too often (I think this is the first time)... :laugh:

Not sure if I agree with #1 because:

locked is locked, in my opinion. If I use a padlock to lock it, it's locked, no matter whether the combo is already "set" or the key is inside the padlock.

12026.2 (d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.


That's what it says, unless I missed something... Locked is locked in the section. It doesn't say anything about how it can't be readily opened (again, unless I missed something, and that's why I'm here :laugh:).

2. An unloaded handgun in a locked container can have magazines full of rounds inside or outside the locked container concealed or unconcealed.

^^Agreed^^

Erik.

Crom
02-12-2011, 4:27 PM
The key in the cylinder defeats the lock; don't do that. This is California and you'll never win that argument.

GrizzlyGuy
02-12-2011, 4:53 PM
That's what it says, unless I missed something... Locked is locked in the section. It doesn't say anything about how it can't be readily opened (again, unless I missed something, and that's why I'm here :laugh:).

See The "ten-year-old" rule of secure transportation (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1711983&postcount=22). The government hasn't told us how secure "secure" really is, so Librarian's test works for me.

Fate
02-12-2011, 5:30 PM
Loaded magazines concealed on person could also be an issue. Best to keep them in the LUCC container with the firearm. And there is no need to put an empty mag in the magwell. That just slows your loading time down.

scarville
02-12-2011, 5:43 PM
If you really want fast access to an unloaded gun, get a biometric lock. Or rig the lock with a remote control.

hoffmang
02-12-2011, 7:41 PM
Loaded magazines concealed on person could also be an issue. Best to keep them in the LUCC container with the firearm.
Incorrect. The only issue is concealing a magazine where there is an unconcealed or unlocked handgun. Even that ruling is an outlier...


And there is no need to put an empty mag in the magwell. That just slows your loading time down.

Completely concur.

-Gene

AlexDD
02-13-2011, 7:31 AM
Incorrect. The only issue is concealing a magazine where there is an unconcealed or unlocked handgun. Even that ruling is an outlier...

So if your unloaded firearm is locked in one compartment of your bag, you can still have loaded magazines in an open, non locked portion of the same bag/container.

Thank you for the clarification.

Fate
02-13-2011, 7:43 AM
Incorrect. The only issue is concealing a magazine where there is an unconcealed or unlocked handgun. Even that ruling is an outlier...

-Gene

Oh! Thanks for the FUD bustin'! :D

I open carry
02-13-2011, 9:16 AM
I carry daily, the only thing I lock up while passing a VDZ, is the handgun. The mags stay on my belt.

Librarian
02-13-2011, 9:27 AM
So if your unloaded firearm is locked in one compartment of your bag, you can still have loaded magazines in an open, non locked portion of the same bag/container.

Yes, or anyplace else you care to carry it, including that locked compartment. Other than actually in the weapon, there is no restriction on how ammunition accompanies your firearm(s).

See the wiki article on "loaded" - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

N6ATF
02-13-2011, 9:39 AM
Putting the key in the lock would kind of defeat the purpose of denying access to gun grabbers doing warrantless searches and seizures, wouldn't it?

Shotgun Man
02-13-2011, 2:27 PM
^^ETA To quote:

I don't disagree with Gene too often (I think this is the first time)... :laugh:

Not sure if I agree with #1 because:

locked is locked, in my opinion. If I use a padlock to lock it, it's locked, no matter whether the combo is already "set" or the key is inside the padlock.



That's what it says, unless I missed something... Locked is locked in the section. It doesn't say anything about how it can't be readily opened (again, unless I missed something, and that's why I'm here :laugh:).

[...]
Erik.

A combo lock set to its combination is no longer locked. By "setting" the combination you have unlocked it.

A closed padlock with a key in the hole undeniably remains locked with the key inside. Inserting the key in the keyhole does not unlock the lock. You have to turn the key to unlock the lock.

So while I would not recommend it, a locked padlock with a key inside remains locked until the key is turned and the locking mechanism disengaged. Logically, you win, but legally (this being CA, with a running dog judiciary), you could still easily lose. Ultimately, it may be an issue for the jury. Hire a locksmith as your expert witness if you get caught in this pickle.

qwer
02-14-2011, 10:33 AM
A closed padlock with a key in the hole undeniably remains locked with the key inside. Inserting the key in the keyhole does not unlock the lock. You have to turn the key to unlock the lock. Perhaps "undeniably" is a bit too strong? The key appears to have just become a door knob. Likely doesn't pass a 3-year-old test. Doesn't look like "secure" applies to the container. Of course, YMMV. :)

stix213
02-14-2011, 12:07 PM
A combo lock set to its combination is no longer locked. By "setting" the combination you have unlocked it.

A closed padlock with a key in the hole undeniably remains locked with the key inside. Inserting the key in the keyhole does not unlock the lock. You have to turn the key to unlock the lock.

So while I would not recommend it, a locked padlock with a key inside remains locked until the key is turned and the locking mechanism disengaged. Logically, you win, but legally (this being CA, with a running dog judiciary), you could still easily lose. Ultimately, it may be an issue for the jury. Hire a locksmith as your expert witness if you get caught in this pickle.

While the container may still be locked in the technical sense with a key in the padlock, it certainly could not be described as a "secure container" as required in PC 12026.1.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html

(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

Blood Ocean
02-14-2011, 12:30 PM
There's no case law either way so with most things tread lightly. I use TSA-approved luggage locks because they are practically free, very cheap and easy to break (no requirement for the "quality" of the lock, TSA certification gives you the "it's certified by a federal agency as a lock" out), and use three numbers for access that are easy to manipulate. I like to keep it 0-0-9, the moment my hand touches the lock it spins the 9 to 0 (had to wear out the internals a bit to get the numbers loosened) and the "container" is unlocked. I use backpacks, ***-bags, my wife's purse, basically ANY container that has two zippers that can lock together as my container. Remember, no requirement as to the quality of the container either, if it came down to it my pocketknife can cut through the canvas (but the wife would kill me if I used it to access the Prada!). Read the law yourself and understand it front to back so that if you're confronted by a LEO who doesn't know the exact wording you can educate him. Again, tread lightly here...

awall919
02-14-2011, 12:33 PM
Section12026.1(c) describes the legal definition of "Locked Container" which IMO there would be no violation of. But the above post talking about the term within 12026.1 "secure container" makes me wonder if there is a legal definition of "Secure Container" anywhere written in law or if there are any court cases that would shine a light on my curiosity.

But the more information i gather upon the subject the more it makes me think of it as something that is not illegal, but a bad idea and a hell of a fight in court, if you find yourself that unfortunate situation.

dantodd
02-14-2011, 12:42 PM
But the more information i gather upon the subject the more it makes me think of it as something that is not illegal, but a bad idea and a hell of a fight in court, if you find yourself that unfortunate situation.

Imagine being in front of neutral to a slightly anti-gun jury making that argument. Do you really thunk they would rule that the container was secure? Imagine the prosecution asking the jury if the container, as configured was "secure" from a 7 year old.

Sent via tapatalk on my Samsung Vibrant.