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View Full Version : Active military getting harassed by border patrol???


Flopps1
02-11-2011, 1:53 PM
Came across this link and found it to be interesting. Vids included.

http://www.veteransagainstpoliceabuse.org/TotheBorderPatrol.aspx

Zak
02-11-2011, 2:26 PM
I read the whole thing, I didn't watch the video because it would just make me angry.

Chief Harris is angry because video technology removes the ability of his agents to slander and libel American citizens from the shadows.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

This story makes me want to get a dashboard camera for my car. Does anybody have any experience with this? I didn't think about it until now.

Jake71
02-11-2011, 4:35 PM
nm.

Matt C
02-11-2011, 4:37 PM
Dupe.

JDoe
02-11-2011, 5:31 PM
Dupe.

Link?

Carnivore
02-11-2011, 5:34 PM
First mistake leaving the road and going to the "holding" area.

Second mistake saying anything other then "are you detaining me?",if yes then " let me know when I am free to go."

If you are not going to tell them anything then DON'T TELL THEM ANYTHING.

Zak
02-11-2011, 5:51 PM
First mistake leaving the road and going to the "holding" area.

Second mistake saying anything other then "are you detaining me?",if yes then " let me know when I am free to go."

If you are not going to tell them anything then DON'T TELL THEM ANYTHING.

How would you go about refusing to go into the "holding" area?

And what's the reasoning behind saying "Let me know what I am free to go"?

I go through border patrol checkpoints every couple of months, and only once was I asked "Is this your vehicle?" I simply said "Yes" and went about my way.

badicedog
02-11-2011, 5:58 PM
What is wrong with rolling down your window to 'eye' level to facilitate the LEO interaction? I don't see rolling down your window 1/2 way as consent to search.

70extreme
02-11-2011, 5:59 PM
These Nazi checkpoints are also near Niland, CA

1. You don't have answer ANY of their questions. You don't have to say one single word to them.

2. In America, it is not required that you carry proof of your citizenship nor do you have to answer any questions whether you are a citizen or not. This is not Nazi Germany where they can demand "Your papers, please".

3. If you do not travel daily with a passport (99.99% of people don't), any statements you make regarding your citizenship are worthless.

4. The US government could care less about illegal immigration. As a matter of fact, they are doing everything they can to encourage it - free tuition, welfare, lack of border fence ect...

5. This is being done to condition American's to accept a police state.

When I go through the checkpoints, I talk first. I say "I am an American Citizen". This completely takes away their probable cause. They ask me where I am coming from and where I am going to. At this point, I just say, "Am I free to go". They get pissed off. They ask to look in my trunk. I tell them no. This goes on for a few minutes and they let me leave. All I say is "I am an American citizen. Am I free to go". Nothing else. I sound like a freaking broken record after a while.

Nazi Checkpoints in America. Who would have believed it?

jtmkinsd
02-11-2011, 6:15 PM
I'm sorry, but these "reverse sting" operations are getting a little old. Somebody wires up their car and acts weird going through a checkpoint and that's supposed to surprise me? I've made MANY trips through both border checkpoints, and inland checkpoints and have NEVER had an issue, role down the window, answer the question, show ID if asked...who cares? I could understand if there was really an issue of harassment or abuse here...but in all honesty, this guy went looking for conflict...and found it. Wow...I'm shocked.:rolleyes:

70extreme
02-11-2011, 6:40 PM
These are not "reverse sting operations". These are people who are repeatedly harassed trying to travel freely within their own borders. In a free country you shouldn't have to stop and answer questions or show papers to drive on a public road. You shouldn't have to deal with an agent that wants to search your car without a warrant. This happens every single day to normal people. The man in the video did nothing wrong.

You should see the big deal in answering a few questions. These violations of your rights have conditioned us to accept other violations of our rights. In my wildest dreams I never thought they would naked body scan people in airports or grope your genitals as a condition to fly. They even felt up people to visit the superbowl.

If you don't say no now, it will get even worse. America is becoming a police state. It is a big deal.

badicedog
02-11-2011, 6:54 PM
These Nazi checkpoints are also near Niland, CA

1. You don't have answer ANY of their questions. You don't have to say one single word to them.

2. In America, it is not required that you carry proof of your citizenship nor do you have to answer any questions whether you are a citizen or not. This is not Nazi Germany where they can demand "Your papers, please".

3. If you do not travel daily with a passport (99.99% of people don't), any statements you make regarding your citizenship are worthless.

4. The US government could care less about illegal immigration. As a matter of fact, they are doing everything they can to encourage it - free tuition, welfare, lack of border fence ect...

5. This is being done to condition American's to accept a police state.

When I go through the checkpoints, I talk first. I say "I am an American Citizen". This completely takes away their probable cause. They ask me where I am coming from and where I am going to. At this point, I just say, "Am I free to go". They get pissed off. They ask to look in my trunk. I tell them no. This goes on for a few minutes and they let me leave. All I say is "I am an American citizen. Am I free to go". Nothing else. I sound like a freaking broken record after a while.

Nazi Checkpoints in America. Who would have believed it?

I see and agree with your point. If from the start you state that your are indeed an American Citizen, any further questions past that is/are an attempt for you to voluntary give up your rights. What "probable cause" would an Immigration Officer have after you established legal citizenship?:thumbsup:

Dhena81
02-11-2011, 7:04 PM
I thought it wasn't a legal question asking if your an American citizen. This is such bs there is absolutely no probable cause weather or not he was a citizen unbelievable.

cdtx2001
02-11-2011, 7:06 PM
These Nazi checkpoints are also near Niland, CA

1. You don't have answer ANY of their questions. You don't have to say one single word to them.

2. In America, it is not required that you carry proof of your citizenship nor do you have to answer any questions whether you are a citizen or not. This is not Nazi Germany where they can demand "Your papers, please".

3. If you do not travel daily with a passport (99.99% of people don't), any statements you make regarding your citizenship are worthless.

4. The US government could care less about illegal immigration. As a matter of fact, they are doing everything they can to encourage it - free tuition, welfare, lack of border fence ect...

5. This is being done to condition American's to accept a police state.

When I go through the checkpoints, I talk first. I say "I am an American Citizen". This completely takes away their probable cause. They ask me where I am coming from and where I am going to. At this point, I just say, "Am I free to go". They get pissed off. They ask to look in my trunk. I tell them no. This goes on for a few minutes and they let me leave. All I say is "I am an American citizen. Am I free to go". Nothing else. I sound like a freaking broken record after a while.

Nazi Checkpoints in America. Who would have believed it?

Glad someone knows their rights when it comes to these checkpoints. Way to go!!! I think those checkpoints are a bunch of BS and wonder why the masses haven't stood up to them and demanded their discontinuance.

70extreme
02-11-2011, 7:06 PM
When you think about it, the question is absurd. No one has proof of citizenship on them.
They are just fishing for probable cause by engaging you in a conversation.

DesertGunner
02-11-2011, 7:14 PM
Goodness knows, nobody would ever try to smuggle illegal aliens or drugs through a checkpoint concealed in the trunk of a hidden compartment....

badicedog
02-11-2011, 7:15 PM
I read somewhere that inland border checkpoints are "constitutionally free" areas upto 100 miles inland. I'm sure someone will chime in soon.

baz152
02-11-2011, 7:26 PM
I'm sorry, but these "reverse sting" operations are getting a little old. Somebody wires up their car and acts weird going through a checkpoint and that's supposed to surprise me? I've made MANY trips through both border checkpoints, and inland checkpoints and have NEVER had an issue, role down the window, answer the question, show ID if asked...who cares? I could understand if there was really an issue of harassment or abuse here...but in all honesty, this guy went looking for conflict...and found it. Wow...I'm shocked.:rolleyes:

What happened here was "contempt of cop", the driver of the vehicle was completely within his rights but the border patrol agents did not like the fact that the driver would not submit to their every whim. There are officers, agents and civilian employees from every agency who can not stand it when someone questions their authority.

The best way that I can explain it is that law enforcement is a game with rules and boundaries; officers must follow all of the rules, all other people may choose to play by those rules or not at all but there is no other choice for law enforcement. I am not saying that law enforcement officers never break the rules but when they do, often times they get called to the mat by the Supreme Court. If those agents wanted to get into the car they needed to build their probable cause or reasonable suspicion, if they were unable to do that then they need to shrug their shoulders and walk away.

Who polices the Police. This "reverse sting" keeps people honest and insures that they play the game by the rules. This is also the reason that many law enforcement agencies provide video cameras for patrol vehicles, have policies that officers "Must" tape record all contacts with people and are even now fielding micro video cameras which must be worn by the officers. I am all for law enforcement doing their job and catching the bad guys but there is a rule book for them to play by and thankfully the prologue to that book is the constitution.

Bear in mind that this was written by a police officer and an oath keeper.

70extreme
02-11-2011, 7:28 PM
They are mocked as "constitution free zones" due to their dubious nature. Of course, all your constitutional rights still apply here. The courts have ruled they can stop you briefly and that probable cause is still required to search your vehicle.

Desertgunner, your car could have drugs in it driving down any city street. Should officers have the right to stop, detain, and search you without reasonable suspicion that you are breaking the law? All of our homes could contain drugs. Should they be able to search our homes at will?

I'll say it again. This government WANTS illegal aliens. They reward them handsomely for entering this country. The border checkpoints are about control and conditioning us to accept government intrusion into our lives.

P.S. I am not anti-police at all. Guys like baz152 sound like one of the good cops that respect the constitution and the people they serve. This problem is complicated. The system is bad and not enough people in it understand the basic principles in the Bill of Rights. Judging by the reaction on this board, it is changing.

2ndornone
02-11-2011, 7:56 PM
First mistake leaving the road and going to the "holding" area.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that leaving the road requires your consent and cannot be required unless they have PC.

DesertGunner
02-11-2011, 9:45 PM
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that leaving the road requires your consent and cannot be required unless they have PC.

Referral to the secondary area requires mere suspicion of any immigration violation or reasonable suspicion of any other type of criminal activity. A search (does not include plain view observation) requires consent or probable cause. Checkpoints are authorized by SCOTUS within 100 air miles of any external boundary of the United States.

Anchors
02-11-2011, 10:17 PM
"Okay, I'm gonna call the Provost Marchall and the CID".

Wow.

Laser Sailor
02-11-2011, 10:23 PM
Man, this thread brings up some very interesting points. I'm grateful for all you guys' imputs. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the BP hire process, and this gives me alot to think about.

Anchors
02-11-2011, 10:38 PM
Man, this thread brings up some very interesting points. I'm grateful for all you guys' imputs. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the BP hire process, and this gives me alot to think about.

Bad Apples in every bunch man.
If you want to do BP, don't let their track record deter you.
Get the job and set an example for other BP Agents by being good at your job and following the law. ;)

ArtSki
02-12-2011, 4:52 AM
One of the most common ways to smuggle illegals, is in the trunk or another hidden compartment in the vehicle. Bad guys constantly look for new ways to outsmart the cops. The cops have to do the same in order to stand any chance of catching the bad guys. These agents looks for something that stands out, and that could be anything, unusual behavior and nervousness is one of the biggest giveaways. If something sparked the agent's interest in a person at the primary inspection, there is nothing that says he can't ask a few extra questions. The more the encounter lasts, the more apparent it becomes if a person is lying about their citizenship or hiding something else. Due diligence is key!

locosway
02-12-2011, 6:29 AM
These are not "reverse sting operations". These are people who are repeatedly harassed trying to travel freely within their own borders. In a free country you shouldn't have to stop and answer questions or show papers to drive on a public road. You shouldn't have to deal with an agent that wants to search your car without a warrant. This happens every single day to normal people. The man in the video did nothing wrong.

You should see the big deal in answering a few questions. These violations of your rights have conditioned us to accept other violations of our rights. In my wildest dreams I never thought they would naked body scan people in airports or grope your genitals as a condition to fly. They even felt up people to visit the superbowl.

If you don't say no now, it will get even worse. America is becoming a police state. It is a big deal.

You just have no clue, do you?

Why on Earth would anyone be stopped WITHIN the borders of the U.S. and asked if they're a citizen?

The best part here is I bet his car even had a military sticker in the front windshield, and the driver had short hair, and likely fit the description of someone in the military. Contempt of cop is what happened here, nothing more. If I was living in an area where I was constantly harassed like this I too would setup cameras and film the encounters. Especially when they threatened to report him for misconduct to his CO, that was crossing the line.

70extreme
02-12-2011, 7:02 AM
Bad Apples in every bunch man.
If you want to do BP, don't let their track record deter you.
Get the job and set an example for other BP Agents by being good at your job and following the law. ;)

I agree. All Border Patrol agents are not bad. Like I said, the big problem is the system. There should not even be checkpoints within the borders of the USA. Get the job and be a good example of someone that respects the constitution.

r3dn3ck
02-12-2011, 7:18 AM
I LOVE badge wearers like them. They make certain that the revolution is that much closer.

Pat Riot
02-12-2011, 8:19 AM
What exactly are you required to do at a border patrol checkpoint?

Does anyone know the actual law / case law?

What if you just roll up stop and dont say anything. Or just say, "I do not consent to searches. Am I free to go?" and wait?

Are you required to show your license since CA Vehicle Code requires you to show Drivers License and reg and insurance?

Liberty1
02-12-2011, 9:18 AM
What exactly are you required to do at a border patrol checkpoint?

Does anyone know the actual law / case law?

What if you just roll up stop and dont say anything. Or just say, "I do not consent to searches. Am I free to go?" and wait?

Are you required to show your license since CA Vehicle Code requires you to show Drivers License and reg and insurance?

Click the link and read the side bar info on the left. It quotes dept. policy & case law.

Liberty1
02-12-2011, 9:20 AM
Man, this thread brings up some very interesting points. I'm grateful for all you guys' imputs. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the BP hire process, and this gives me alot to think about.

As long as the job is being done. We need good people on the inside. If that's you, go do good.

DesertGunner
02-12-2011, 9:35 AM
Why on Earth would anyone be stopped WITHIN the borders of the U.S. and asked if they're a citizen?


Because believe it or not, there are some people physically present in the United States who are NOT citizens and do not have the right to be here. Some are here legally and can still be deported. Some are here legally but are smuggling others who are not. Hence the questions.

DesertGunner
02-12-2011, 9:44 AM
What exactly are you required to do at a border patrol checkpoint?

Does anyone know the actual law / case law?

You are required to comply with all lawful instructions. Whether or not you think those instructions are/should be lawful is really beside the point. The case law is settled.

For starters, google "united states v. Martinez-fuerte" and "8 USC 1357"

Long story short, the agents can ask any reasonably relevant questions they want to establish citizenship/alienage and if there is any possible criminal activity (smuggling). The courts have said that as long as the detention (yes, you are being detained) is not unreasonably prolonged, the agents can ask any questions they feel relevant. You may not understand the reason for certain questions, but there is a reason. If you are a US citizen, you technically do not HAVE to answer any questions, but the agents do not have to release you until any developed suspicion is satisfied.

Also, if you are NOT a US citizen (permanent resident or visa holder), you are required by law to answer questions and produce documents.

Gray Peterson
02-12-2011, 9:59 AM
. The courts have said that as long as the detention (yes, you are being detained) is not unreasonably prolonged, the agents can ask any questions they feel relevant. You may not understand the reason for certain questions, but there is a reason. If you are a US citizen, you technically do not HAVE to answer any questions, but the agents do not have to release you until any developed suspicion is satisfied.

You mean they can detain you indefinitely and arrest you if you exercise your 5th amendment rights?

I don't think so. Martinez-Fuerte did NOT say that, and neither does 8USC1357.

Carnivore
02-12-2011, 12:07 PM
First off at the BORDER they can stop you and search you if they want period. You are subject to that when you come into this country from another. That is case law and you can't get around it. This check point is NOT AT THE BORDER! things change once you are in this country. You do not have to show papers or proof of citizenship unless they arrest you for something else. They are bullying people into complying and I don't agree with it at all. For the most part they don't do a f*({ing thing to seal our borders and protect us so why should we "comply" to their freaking demands to show/say citizenship. It is a personal decision and I don't hold anything against anyone that wants to just move on and comply but I choose not too.





How would you go about refusing to go into the "holding" area?

And what's the reasoning behind saying "Let me know what I am free to go"?

I go through border patrol checkpoints every couple of months, and only once was I asked "Is this your vehicle?" I simply said "Yes" and went about my way.


First you say "NO" and sit there on the road.

When you are sitting on the road and they keep asking you to move to second stage area or declare your citizenship you are not free to go. You sit there until you are free to go so that is the reason you ask "Let me know when (or just) am I free to go"


I am glad you haven't been held over but thinking that happens to every one is naive. I have been stopped and it takes about 10 minutes for them to give up and just wave me through. If you move to the second area they have all day. Because I am told to stop there I am not in violation of blocking a road way. Since they have no PC to do anything else they have no choice but to let me go once they give up.

Border patrol should be on the border or in any customs area and let people travel freely through the country.

70extreme
02-12-2011, 1:00 PM
You are required to comply with all lawful instructions. Whether or not you think those instructions are/should be lawful is really beside the point. The case law is settled.

For starters, google "united states v. Martinez-fuerte" and "8 USC 1357"

Long story short, the agents can ask any reasonably relevant questions they want to establish citizenship/alienage and if there is any possible criminal activity (smuggling). The courts have said that as long as the detention (yes, you are being detained) is not unreasonably prolonged, the agents can ask any questions they feel relevant. You may not understand the reason for certain questions, but there is a reason. If you are a US citizen, you technically do not HAVE to answer any questions, but the agents do not have to release you until any developed suspicion is satisfied.

Also, if you are NOT a US citizen (permanent resident or visa holder), you are required by law to answer questions and produce documents.

Just because it is case law, does not make it constitutional. At one time, blacks weren't considered people. The courts were wrong then. The courts are wrong now.

One more time ... the state does not give a rip about illegal immigration or they wouldn't give them a free education, welfare, and other state goodies. This creates jealousy among us and division among different groups. Brown vs. white, brown vs. black. In the state's eyes, the more conflict the better.

Their goal is to make us fight among each other so that the "law and order" types demand a police state. Then, the state gets what it wants.

It is so obvious a child could figure it out.

JJ_
02-12-2011, 1:04 PM
Title 8 USC Chapter 12 Subchapter II Part IX § 1357 only applies as follows:

(a) Powers without warrant

to interrogate any alien or person believed to be an alien;

to arrest any alien who in his presence or view is entering or attempting to enter the United States in violation of any law

within a reasonable distance from any external boundary of the United States, to board and search for aliens

to make arrests for felonies which have been committed and which are cognizable under any law of the United States regulating the admission, exclusion, expulsion, or removal of aliens, if he has reason to believe

to make arrests—
(A) for any offense, if the offense is committed in the officer’s or employee’s presence, or
(B) for any felony, if the officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe

(c) Search without warrant

Any officer or employee, shall have power to conduct a search, without warrant, of the person, and of the personal effects in the possession of any person seeking admission to the United States, concerning whom such officer or employee may have reasonable cause to suspect

Reasonable Cause is required at any inland check point regardless. Mere suspicion is not sufficient.

If I'm stopped at one of these check points I immediately inform them I'm an American Citizen, thereby ending any further cause for the stop. Beyond this, I will not answer any further questions.

If asked where I'm coming from, where I'm going, and or if this is my vehicle I politely state I will not answer any further question and I'm I free to go about my business.

DesertGunner
02-12-2011, 1:12 PM
Just because it is case law, does not make it constitutional.
Well, according to our Congress and SCOTUS, it does in fact make it constitutional.
I'm not being sarcastic, but if you don't like it, write to your congressman and lobby to have the law changed. Obviously that won't accomplish anything, but still...


One more time ... the state does not give a rip about illegal immigration or they wouldn't give them a free education, welfare, and other state goodies.

I totally agree with you. Dead serious.

Also, you have a PM.

Chadster
02-12-2011, 1:16 PM
KFS7oZtE8Ks

IrishPirate
02-12-2011, 1:56 PM
These Nazi checkpoints are also near Niland, CA

1. You don't have answer ANY of their questions. You don't have to say one single word to them.

true

2. In America, it is not required that you carry proof of your citizenship nor do you have to answer any questions whether you are a citizen or not. This is not Nazi Germany where they can demand "Your papers, please".

you are if you're not a citizen. All non citizens must carry with them at all times proof that they are in the country legally. That's what the Arizona immigration law was all about....you know, that thing we all supported so much until a few white people got harrassed, or we ourselves did. "Sure, push all this crap on someone else.....just not me! I don't want to be bothered, i just want you to bother them.....can't you tell the difference??"

3. If you do not travel daily with a passport (99.99% of people don't), any statements you make regarding your citizenship are worthless.

False. If you state you're a citizen and you are not, that's lying to a federal officer....big no no. If you are a citizen and you say you're not, you are again lying to a federal officer.....still a big no no. If you are a citizen, you say that you are a citizen, and they harrass you further...you can exercise your rights to seek compensation for them violating your rights. You do not need a passport to establish citizenship, and you're right, 99.999999% of people probably only travel with their passport when they are leaving the country........which is why a BORDER patrol agent might reasonably ask to see a passport. If you can provide reasonable answers in an intelligent way that would establish credibillity as to your word that you're a US citizen, then you SHOULD be free to go about your business. If not, then it's resonable that they would want to look into it further.

4. The US government could care less about illegal immigration. As a matter of fact, they are doing everything they can to encourage it - free tuition, welfare, lack of border fence ect...

this is an opinion, not a fact. I'll leave alone since I'm obviously not going to change your opnion about this, and you have every right to feel however you want about it.

5. This is being done to condition American's to accept a police state.

can't really argue with that....i agree we are being conditioned to accept a police state, but I'm not 100% sure that border check points are there to accomplish that goal. People who smuggle ilegals into the country usually live in areas where check points exist. Yes, the agents are going to see you and stop you everytime. If a smuggler established a good repor and was waved through everytime, what would be the point? everyone must be stopped, or no one should be stopped. If the smugglers knew that simply saying I don't consent to search was a free pass to leave the checkpoint, they'd all be saying it and nothing would ever get done. It sucks, but what other way can you contribute to help secure the border? no matter what, people are still going to get across the border....so should we grant them amnesty since they're already here, or should we try to catch them and send them back?

When I go through the checkpoints, I talk first. I say "I am an American Citizen". This completely takes away their probable cause.

no it doesn't. You can tell them you're a flying chicken or a member of the royal family. They can ask anything they want, including the question which you preemptively answered. If all you had to say was "I'm a US citizen" and that was the magic no more questions card, then all the illegals and smugglers would do the same thing. anything you volunteer is just voluntary information. Until you remove the doubt from their minds, they are going to keep asking questions and you're going to become more and more suspicious. not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.

They ask me where I am coming from and where I am going to. At this point, I just say, "Am I free to go". They get pissed off. They ask to look in my trunk. I tell them no. This goes on for a few minutes and they let me leave. All I say is "I am an American citizen. Am I free to go". Nothing else. I sound like a freaking broken record after a while.

sounds more like a lack of decent security to me. I'm glad you're exercising your rights, but you gotta realize they are just doing their job. they have to pay the bills too. This issue is never going to go away so you're going to have to deal with it one way or another. Hopefully you do it in a respectful manner, not a shove your authority and questions upp your *** kind of way.

Nazi Checkpoints in America. Who would have believed it?

Been happening since 1776 my friend. Life is always torn between the have's and the have not's. Until the day that borders do not exist, there will always be people trying to figure out on which side of the line you belong. That's a human issue, not an American one.

I thought it wasn't a legal question asking if your an American citizen. This is such bs there is absolutely no probable cause weather or not he was a citizen unbelievable.

They can ask you anything they want. A question is just a question. You don't have to answer them IF YOU ARE A CITIZEN. If you're not a citizen, you are required to answer questions and provide documentation of your legal status. They ask because if they can prove you are lying, they have something else to charge you with. The thought of compounding sentences makes people worry, which makes them look suspicious, which helps lead to LEO's determining PC. I'm not saying they are going about it the right way, I'm just saying you cant expect them to crack down on illegals, and just automatically know who is a citizen and leave them alone. They are just people like you and me. They make mistakes too. If they make them with a citizen, then i suggest that citizen takes full advantage of their rights and seeks the maximum compensation for any rights violated.

Glad someone knows their rights when it comes to these checkpoints. Way to go!!! I think those checkpoints are a bunch of BS and wonder why the masses haven't stood up to them and demanded their discontinuance.

because "the masses" don't live near the border and dont deal with it. The masses of gun owners dont live in CA so they don't care about our BS gun laws. The masses don't live in New Orleans so they don't care that the vast majority of the recovery effort after Katrina has been abandoned. The masses don't live in Las Vegas so they dont care about the water issues. people only care about what affects them directly in their day to day lives. it's sad, but it's true.

You are required to comply with all lawful instructions. Whether or not you think those instructions are/should be lawful is really beside the point. The case law is settled.

For starters, google "united states v. Martinez-fuerte" and "8 USC 1357"

Long story short, the agents can ask any reasonably relevant questions they want to establish citizenship/alienage and if there is any possible criminal activity (smuggling). The courts have said that as long as the detention (yes, you are being detained) is not unreasonably prolonged, the agents can ask any questions they feel relevant. You may not understand the reason for certain questions, but there is a reason. If you are a US citizen, you technically do not HAVE to answer any questions, but the agents do not have to release you until any developed suspicion is satisfied.

Also, if you are NOT a US citizen (permanent resident or visa holder), you are required by law to answer questions and produce documents.

exactly!!!

You mean they can detain you indefinitely and arrest you if you exercise your 5th amendment rights?

I don't think so. Martinez-Fuerte did NOT say that, and neither does 8USC1357.

he didn't say indefinitely, he said as long as the detention (yes, you are being detained) is not unreasonably prolonged, the agents can ask any questions they feel relevant. I doubt that holding you indefinitely for exercising your 5A right would be considered ok by any court.....a few hours though would likely be considered ok, if they had the probable cause to back it up.


I'm sure some of you are going to think that i support these checks....I don't. Not in the current form. I think they are geared too much in the way of making everyone a criminal until they prove otherwise. It would be nice if they could figure out how to seperate the good guys from the bad guys, but we all know that's impossible. I'm sure many BP agents abuse their authority and have low levels of communication and conflict resolution skills. THAT is the major problem that needs to be addressed first. That's the "easy" fix. But like i said before, there will ALWAYS be someone trying to decide which side of the line you belong on. You have to decide at what level you're going to comply with their questions, and how much info you're willing to give them to satisify their curiosity. Personally, I don't think that showing a drivers license and telling them I'm a citizen is too much to ask to help keep illegals out of the country. When they start demanding i let them search my property though....that's where I draw my line.

packnrat
02-12-2011, 2:33 PM
we need some pro constitutional lawyers to get pulled over, with there whole car and body wired, have many stops, and many different persons working in the same way for said lawyers.


:TFH:
.

70extreme
02-12-2011, 5:10 PM
Irish Pirate said

"If you can provide reasonable answers in an intelligent way that would establish credibillity as to your word that you're a US citizen, then you SHOULD be free to go about your business. If not, then it's resonable that they would want to look into it further."

In a free country, you are not guilty of being here illegally until you prove your innocence. I refuse to answer their questions on the principle that Border Patrol agents should be at the BORDER!

They can not legally make me answer their questions. Also, refusal to answer their questions is not probable cause. They prey on the uninformed who willingly give up their rights and intimidating people to allow searches of their vehicles as a form of harassment of US citizens who want to travel freely in their own country.

Anchors
02-12-2011, 6:04 PM
I LOVE badge wearers like them. They make certain that the revolution is that much closer.

Oh boy :rolleyes:

IBTR (In Before "The Revolution")

lhecker51
02-13-2011, 5:15 PM
I'm sorry, but these "reverse sting" operations are getting a little old. Somebody wires up their car and acts weird going through a checkpoint and that's supposed to surprise me? I've made MANY trips through both border checkpoints, and inland checkpoints and have NEVER had an issue, role down the window, answer the question, show ID if asked...who cares? I could understand if there was really an issue of harassment or abuse here...but in all honesty, this guy went looking for conflict...and found it. Wow...I'm shocked.:rolleyes:

In my opinion, the BP violated there own policy and the law. Blaming the victim for causing his circumstance is irrelevant. I would hope that BP officers get some much needed training in this particular case. If I am required to follow strict procedure regarding rules of engagement in Iraq, then I FULLY expect our LEO's to do the same. Ignorance or willful non-compliance of their own procedures and federal law is no excuse. I am not required to lick their boots and neither are you. If you choose to do so, by all means do so, but that is your option. I will not.

The bottom line is there is a limit to their authority and they went way beyond that limit. I respect LEO's, but I have had the same thing happen to me at a border crossing. I am a retired veteran and fully understand what their scope and duties are as I understood mine. I had no problems following engagement directives in a combat zone as should these BP officers.

In my opinion, it is never a good idea to waive your rights. Why give them anything other than what is required by law? Ask any lawyer and they will tell you this. Not once did they ask him his immigration status prior to being pulled into secondary inspection. Remember what the scope of their policy and mission is. The more you know about the law, the less you will have to walk on eggshells navigating it in daily life.

Sniper3142
02-13-2011, 6:59 PM
BP is staffed largely with arrogant thugs on a power trip.

I remember an incident that happened to two a few fellow Marines way back when.

Some BP idiots wanted to see their "green" cards (one was Puerto Rican and 2 were Filipino). The only green cards these Devildogs had 9or needed) was their Military ID. They showed to the BP idiots but it wasn't enough for the fools.

The BP folks wanted them to pull into the secondary search area. They said @#$! you and drove away (with several BP fools giving chase). They drove all the way to the San Mateo gate of Pendleton with these idiots chasing them with lights and sirens. They pulled up to the gate, showed their ID, and explained why the BP vehicles were chasing them (they had managed to get a few seconds lead on the BP vehicles).

The MP at the gate waved them thru and then stood in the middle of the road to stop the BP vehicles. When they demanded entry to pursue, the MP told them the occupants were all U.S. Marines and to "go the @#$! away". :)

BP filed an offical complaint. It didn't go anywhere. The 3 Marines in the car didn't get into any trouble. The MP however did into a little since he was less than professional with the BP idiots.

I myself have blown thru that same checkpoint a couple of times. They never gave chase on those ocassions. ;)

Veggie
02-13-2011, 7:15 PM
BP is staffed largely with arrogant thugs on a power trip.

I remember an incident that happened to two a few fellow Marines way back when.

Some BP idiots wanted to see their "green" cards (one was Puerto Rican and 2 were Filipino). The only green cards these Devildogs had 9or needed) was their Military ID. They showed to the BP idiots but it wasn't enough for the fools.

The BP folks wanted them to pull into the secondary search area. They said @#$! you and drove away (with several BP fools giving chase). They drove all the way to the San Mateo gate of Pendleton with these idiots chasing them with lights and sirens. They pulled up to the gate, showed their ID, and explained why the BP vehicles were chasing them (they had managed to get a few seconds lead on the BP vehicles).

The MP at the gate waved them thru and then stood in the middle of the road to stop the BP vehicles. When they demanded entry to pursue, the MP told them the occupants were all U.S. Marines and to "go the @#$! away". :)

BP filed an offical complaint. It didn't go anywhere. The 3 Marines in the car didn't get into any trouble. The MP however did into a little since he was less than professional with the BP idiots.

I myself have blown thru that same checkpoint a couple of times. They never gave chase on those ocassions. ;)

That's awesome. Military ID isn't good enough? LOL.

70extreme
02-13-2011, 7:55 PM
I have a question -

Do you legally have to pull over to secondary if they tell/ask you to?

JJ_
02-13-2011, 10:15 PM
I have a question -

Do you legally have to pull over to secondary if they tell/ask you to?

Unless they believe you to be an alien or a person believed to be an alien they do not have cause to detain beyond the immigration status check, normally a verbal question regarding your nationality.

Reasonable Cause is required at any inland checkpoint regardless. Mere suspicion is not sufficient.

If asked, I'd politely decline and inquire if I was free to go. If ordered, I'd pull over to secondary, to prevent local LEO involvement. However, they'll get the same response with the caveat, if they believe they have cause beyond immigration status, call the local sheriff to effect an arrest otherwise have the agent in charge come out for a chat.

Now if you happen to look like ET I’d suspect your going to have some explaining to do. But I suppose you could always use the 14th amendment to cover it.

DesertGunner
02-13-2011, 10:43 PM
I have a question -

Do you legally have to pull over to secondary if they tell/ask you to?

Yes

DesertGunner
02-13-2011, 10:43 PM
That's awesome. Military ID isn't good enough? LOL.

Military ID is not proof of citizenship or nationality.

DesertGunner
02-13-2011, 10:44 PM
Reasonable Cause is required at any inland checkpoint regardless. Mere suspicion is not sufficient.


Wrong. See my above comments.

Veggie
02-13-2011, 10:56 PM
Wrong. See my above comments.

In order to join the US Military, you must either be a US citizen, or you must be a legal permanent immigrant, physically living in the United States, with a green card.

Seems like it does to me.

ENTHUSIAST
02-14-2011, 12:01 AM
These are not "reverse sting operations". These are people who are repeatedly harassed trying to travel freely within their own borders. In a free country you shouldn't have to stop and answer questions or show papers to drive on a public road. You shouldn't have to deal with an agent that wants to search your car without a warrant. This happens every single day to normal people. The man in the video did nothing wrong.

You should see the big deal in answering a few questions. These violations of your rights have conditioned us to accept other violations of our rights. In my wildest dreams I never thought they would naked body scan people in airports or grope your genitals as a condition to fly. They even felt up people to visit the superbowl.

If you don't say no now, it will get even worse. America is becoming a police state. It is a big deal.

I wish more people would realize this. The BP is fast becoming the protoype for a step-by-step "How to run a Police State" and people are just starting to finally grasp it... well better late than NEVER I guess!!! :thumbsup:

They play word games all day long with honest Americans and intimidate US citizens into a state of forced compliance NOT through the rule of law but through emotional duress and verbal threats.

In my several encounters with BP they can say things that range from down right lies to just sick and weird.

When I was first detained I was offered a bottle of water.

The BP Agent literally said (as he handed me the water) and I quote: "Dont worry it is NOT poisoned... HaHa!"

Sick jokes and scare tactics aside... the glaring lack of professionalism has become the one constant problem that I have seen repeated from numerous BP Agents in both the 94 and 8 corridors.

JJ_
02-14-2011, 1:08 AM
Originally Posted by JJ_ View Post
Reasonable Cause is required at any inland checkpoint regardless. Mere suspicion is not sufficient.

Wrong. See my above comments.

CBP Field Manual.

18.7 Degrees of Suspicion.

(b) Reasonable Suspicion. Before an inspector may constitutionally detain a person (non-entry related case), the inspector must have reasonable suspicion that the person is an alien and is illegally in the United States. This higher degree of suspicion arises generally in questioning persons encountered in and around the port who are awaiting persons referred to secondary. This suspicion is based on questioning of alienage alone and also involves specific articulable facts, such as particular characteristics or circumstances which the inspector can describe in words.

12.1 Inspection of U.S. Citizens.

When you are convinced that an applicant for admission is a citizen of the United States, the examination is terminated.

Temporary detention of a U.S. citizen for extensive questioning generally requires reasonable suspicion that the person is involved in illegal activity. If probable cause to arrest the U.S. citizen cannot be developed within a reasonable period of time, the person must be released.

12.3 Oral Testimony.

It must be emphasized that in many instances where a United States passport is not statutorily required of an arriving citizen applicant, a person may establish United States citizenship by oral statements.


18.6 Warrantless Searches and Seizures.

(e) Checkpoints. The Border Patrol conducts two types of inland traffic-checking operations: checkpoints and roving patrols. Border Patrol agents can make routine vehicle stops without any suspicion to inquire into citizenship and immigration status at a reasonably located permanent or temporary checkpoint provided the checkpoint is used for the purpose of determining citizenship of those who pass through it, and not for the general search for those persons or the vehicle. Inquiries must be brief and limited to the immigration status of the occupants of the vehicle. The only permissible search is a “plain view” inspection to ascertain whether there are any concealed illegal aliens.

In contrast, INS officers on roving patrol may stop a vehicle only if aware of specific articulable facts, together with rational inferences from those facts, that reasonably warrant suspicion (reasonable suspicion) that the vehicle contains illegal aliens. Absent consent, a more in-depth search requires probable cause for both types of inland traffic-checking operations.

70extreme
02-14-2011, 5:08 AM
JJ, thanks. It is clear the jackboots at the BP station outside Niland do not follow this procedure.

Their first question is usually "Where are you coming from?". My favorite is "Can you open your trunk for me?"

Where I have been is none of their business and has nothing to do with immigration status. I refuse to answer or comply with either question.

Is there anything written documenting that you do not have to pull over to secondary?

P.S.

DesertGunner
02-14-2011, 5:12 AM
18.7 Degrees of Suspicion.

(b) Reasonable Suspicion. Before an inspector may constitutionally detain a person (non-entry related case), the inspector must have reasonable suspicion this does not apply to interior checkpoints. Everyone is detained when they pass through.

12.1 Inspection of U.S. Citizens.
When you are convinced that an applicant for admission is a citizen of the United States, the examination is terminated. This refers to Ports of Entry, not checkpoints

Temporary detention of a U.S. citizen for extensive questioning generally requires reasonable suspicion that the person is involved in illegal activity. Which is what I said beforeIf probable cause to arrest the U.S. citizen cannot be developed within a reasonable period of time, the person must be released.Correct

12.3 Oral Testimony.

It must be emphasized that in many instances where a United States passport is not statutorily required of an arriving citizen applicant, a person may establish United States citizenship by oral statements.
This is not referringto interior checkpoints, although it is correct that US citizens do not need carry documents proving such.

18.6 Warrantless Searches and Seizures.

(e) Checkpoints. The Border Patrol conducts two types of inland traffic-checking operations: checkpoints and roving patrols. Border Patrol agents can make routine vehicle stops without any suspicion to inquire into citizenship and immigration status at a reasonably located permanent or temporary checkpoint provided the checkpoint is used for the purpose of determining citizenship of those who pass through it, and not for the general search for those persons or the vehicle.An immigration inspection also involves attempting to ascertain if there are any concealed persons in the vehicle Inquiries must be brief and limited to the immigration status of the occupants of the vehicleCourts have ruled otherwise. The only permissible search is a “plain view” inspection to ascertain whether there are any concealed illegal aliens.Yes, absent consent or probable cause to search further. Nothing prevents agents from asking consent

In contrast, INS officers on roving patrol may stop a vehicle only if aware of specific articulable facts,This does not apply to checkpoints together with rational inferences from those facts, that reasonably warrant suspicion (reasonable suspicion) that the vehicle contains illegal aliens. Absent consent, a more in-depth search requires probable cause for both types of inland traffic-checking operations.
A K9 alert provides probable cause for a search

Untamed1972
02-14-2011, 7:35 AM
Bad Apples in every bunch man.
If you want to do BP, don't let their track record deter you.
Get the job and set an example for other BP Agents by being good at your job and following the law. ;)

The problem with that is being in "uniformed services" and also being the new guy....you're expected to follow orders and abide by and impliment Dept policy. Your career is going to be very short of you dont demonstrate that you're a "team player".

The Director
02-14-2011, 8:09 AM
In order to join the US Military, you must either be a US citizen, or you must be a legal permanent immigrant, physically living in the United States, with a green card.

Seems like it does to me.

The part you are forgetting is this: If you are a green card holder, you must carry your green card on your person at all times by law, and must present it to an immigration official upon demand!

Military ID is not an indicator of immigration status even though you can join the military as a green card holder.

70extreme
02-14-2011, 8:25 AM
The government encourages illegal immigration. Then, they use the existence of illegal aliens to harass, search, and detain ordinary citizens.

People are waking up.

IN A FREE COUNTRY THERE ARE NO INTERNAL CHECKPOINTS

Jack L
02-14-2011, 9:00 AM
I go down to the border area in AZ a lot. There are many very young BP with not much education on other issues beside the nuts and bolts of how to chase illegals and drug mules. Be prepared for just about anything. The thing is, I wear a hat that has a traditional southwest look to it. When they see me out in the bush carrying they get excited they will make some kind of bust. They act disappointed when they find out I'm a CA born a raised USA citizen just doing my thing out there. So far I have not been shot at.

Lots of open space to shoot on BLM land. Good place to practice ultra long distence shots.

jonnyt16
02-14-2011, 9:18 AM
Just watched these videos for the first time (including the Pastor getting the hell beat out of him). I am appalled and disturbed beyond the point of which I can even describe with words.

WTF IS HAPPENING TO MY COUNTRY?!?!

70extreme
02-14-2011, 9:47 AM
WTF IS HAPPENING TO MY COUNTRY?!?!

Good question.

The Nazi internal checkpoints aren't even the worst of it. Americans are radiated, virtually strip searched, and sexually molested just to fly on an airplane in this country. Janet Napolitano is on video screens in stores telling you to spy on your neighbor. Your cable guy, trash collector, and soon the USPS is also trained to spy on you. Throughout the country there are Threat Fusion Centers spying on the personal lives of ordinary Americans. In NYC, they demand to search your bags to ride public transportation. In Philly, they have a "Stop and Frisk" campaign violating the 4th Amendment of Americans. Research Infraguard to get a look at the Police state in action.

The real purpose of Homeland Security is not about protecting us from cave dwellers with boxcutters. Homeland Security hired Marcus Wolf (the ex head of the Stasi) to help them set up a US police state. This police state is for ordinary Americans, gun owners, military veterans, Libertarians, and Ron Paul supporters (among others) according to the MIAC report.

It will only get worse unless people wake up.

Veggie
02-14-2011, 11:17 AM
The part you are forgetting is this: If you are a green card holder, you must carry your green card on your person at all times by law, and must present it to an immigration official upon demand!

Military ID is not an indicator of immigration status even though you can join the military as a green card holder.

Then neither is a Drivers License which the BP would have been more then happy to accept I am sure as they do it daily.

cadurand
02-14-2011, 11:46 AM
I remember reading something (can't find it now of course) where there was a difference in your rights regarding consenting to searches if you were stopped at a PERMANENT INTERNAL CHECKPOINT or a TEMPORARY INTERNAL CHECKPOINT.

Something to the point that you didn't have much of a 4th Amendment Right at the PERMANENT checkpoints but you did at the TEMPORARY checkpoints. The article I read was making a distinction between the two types of checkpoints.. I just can't remember all the details.

Anyone know if I'm remembering this correctly?

70extreme
02-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Your rights are INALIENABLE. This means they never go away.

The 4th amendment always applies.

Veggie
02-14-2011, 12:06 PM
Unfortunately this day all our rights are subject to interpretation. And National Security is more important then all.

DesertGunner
02-14-2011, 12:25 PM
I remember reading something (can't find it now of course) where there was a difference in your rights regarding consenting to searches if you were stopped at a PERMANENT INTERNAL CHECKPOINT or a TEMPORARY INTERNAL CHECKPOINT.

Something to the point that you didn't have much of a 4th Amendment Right at the PERMANENT checkpoints but you did at the TEMPORARY checkpoints. The article I read was making a distinction between the two types of checkpoints.. I just can't remember all the details.

Anyone know if I'm remembering this correctly?

There used to be a distinction between the two, there no longer is.

DesertGunner
02-14-2011, 12:26 PM
Then neither is a Drivers License which the BP would have been more then happy to accept I am sure as they do it daily.

California requires proof of legal residence (citizen, green card or visa) to issue a DL.

masterlock
02-14-2011, 12:54 PM
I hope that none of you "we are heading for a police state" people ever have to look back and say to yourself "I wish that guy that.. raped my daughter/killed my wife/molested my son/stabbed my father or any number of things..had been found in the trunk of that car that got waved through", because the smuggler was using these same tactics. I guess it would just be better to not have the police at all.

70extreme
02-14-2011, 1:08 PM
Masterlock, you really need to go back and re-think that comment. No one is arguing against the police or punishing real criminals. What smart people object to is the government overstepping their constitutional limits of their power in a way that treats ordinary citizens like criminals. If the state really cared about the safety of our wives and daughters, they would be allowed to carry a gun to protect themselves via the 2nd Amendment (currently invalid in California). Here is a clue - they don't care about us. It is all about them consolidating power.

Your flawed scare tactic has been used throughout history in every totalitarian takeover of a free country.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Ben Franklin

cmaynes
02-14-2011, 1:44 PM
Having gone through the East San Diego BP checkpoints dozens of times, with a 4WD vehicle and all sorts of outddor kit in the vehicle- I have never, ever been stopped beyond the usual sort of acknowledgment-

I am not sure why this guy got the treatment he did, but it seems that he was trying to evade a very common sort of interaction-

I wonder if there is more that is being advertised with this particular encounter- especially since it was videoed as it was....

Zdiddy
02-14-2011, 2:24 PM
it getting to be more andmore like the federal and military checkpoints in Mexico. Atleast we can be happy that they dont treat us here in the USA like they do those in the Mexico check points.

70extreme
02-14-2011, 2:58 PM
it getting to be more andmore like the federal and military checkpoints in Mexico. Atleast we can be happy that they dont treat us here in the USA like they do those in the Mexico check points.

Not yet. They are already sticking their hands IN your pants to fly. They felt people up to go to the Superbowl.

Just wait, it will get worse if the sheep don't wake up.

stix213
02-14-2011, 2:58 PM
The real purpose of Homeland Security is not about protecting us from cave dwellers with boxcutters. Homeland Security hired Marcus Wolf (the ex head of the Stasi) to help them set up a US police state. This police state is for ordinary Americans, gun owners, military veterans, Libertarians, and Ron Paul supporters (among others) according to the MIAC report.

It will only get worse unless people wake up.

Most Americans, including myself, have never in their life even once driven through a BP check point within the country. If the purpose is setting up a police state, or conditioning us in some way, they aren't doing a very good job at it. This sounds more like some over zealous BP officers need an update on proper procedures instead of tin foil hat conspiracy theories about the new USA police state :TFH:

70extreme
02-14-2011, 5:05 PM
You are more conditioned than you realize. Do you fly? Hands down the pants. Do you go to Walmart? Spy on your neighbor. Have you been through a DUI checkpoint?

There are many things you cant see. Patriot Act, Spying, they are ramping up.

jonnyt16
02-14-2011, 5:28 PM
Most Americans, including myself, have never in their life even once driven through a BP check point within the country. If the purpose is setting up a police state, or conditioning us in some way, they aren't doing a very good job at it. This sounds more like some over zealous BP officers need an update on proper procedures instead of tin foil hat conspiracy theories about the new USA police state :TFH:
The fact that you can just dismiss this incident as "simply a few over-zealous BP officers" shows just how conditioned you already are and you don't even realize it.

Carnivore
02-14-2011, 5:38 PM
I hope that none of you "we are heading for a police state" people ever have to look back and say to yourself "I wish that guy that.. raped my daughter/killed my wife/molested my son/stabbed my father or any number of things..had been found in the trunk of that car that got waved through", because the smuggler was using these same tactics. I guess it would just be better to not have the police at all.

REALLY???? How about having a much bigger presents at the border to catch them before they ever make it across? You really think that a temporary check point 50 miles in is catching anyone that is illegal? They are at most catching contraband that could have been stopped at the boarder had the agents been all there. At 10, 25 or even 100 miles in there is no telling how many killers were already dropped off or how much contraband has been delivered already. Sorry to say if they make it 1 foot past the border we are already screwed. Hassling people 50 miles in is a absolute waste of recourses and time, not to mention a multi million dollar settlement in the making for one unlucky then luck person.

Contrary to belief you are NOT required to move to secondary on an internal temporary check point. You ARE required to stop and you don't have to move till they let you go free. That doesn't mean they won't bully you or any number of things nor does it mean you won't receive a BS ticket or worse. Again required only counts in court not on the road. If you can't take a tazing, just jump in with the sheep and mmooove along.

70extreme
02-14-2011, 6:02 PM
Carnivore, thank you for your input. Can you point me to something that documents that we do not have to move to secondary? I hope that you are right and I just want some proof because I WILL REFUSE TO GO TO SECONDARY NEXT TIME.

The true Patriots are not those that stick a flag on their car. They are the non-violent persons who resist the police state.

stix213
02-14-2011, 6:05 PM
The fact that you can just dismiss this incident as "simply a few over-zealous BP officers" shows just how conditioned you already are and you don't even realize it.

I can dismiss it because in the 31 years I have been alive I have never seen anything as has been described, and I'm betting most people who don't live in a border region are the same way. I drive 30k miles a year every year and have never seen a BP checkpoint. Its hard to condition the public to become accustomed to a police state when they aren't doing it to most of the public, so that theory is ridiculous on its face.

Only checkpoints I have ever traveled through are drunk driver check points, and I've never seen an officer at one of those do more than ask for a license and if you've been drinking. Hardly a police state. I usually spend the time chatting it up with them, asking them how many drunks they have gotten off the road today, and telling them what a good job they are doing by doing so. Maybe I'm just getting them in too much of a good mood to feel the wrath of the police state coming down on me. :rolleyes:

Well I've also been through those agricultural checkpoints on the state line, but that's hardly a police state either.

I'm all for stopping inappropriate behavior by police and border patrol, but when you make up some crazy conspiracy against the public as the reasoning behind it, you then ignore the true cause and as such are unable to comprehend a real solution to the problem. You can't fix something you refuse to understand. Again tin foil hat time :TFH::TFH::TFH:

70extreme
02-14-2011, 7:17 PM
Stix, you have Stockholm Syndrome. Every single abuse I mentioned is happening. You even have video proof of the BP violations. Just because you don't experience it, does not make it less real.

The TSA sticks their hands in your pants to fly. Time to wake up and smell the tyranny.

cmaynes
02-14-2011, 9:46 PM
I have had many encounters with BP on the border and at the Checkpoint east of San Diego on Hwy 8- I have never had an issue with them, even when I was fully armed.

that isnt to say there arent abuses- but I know a lot guys who have had similar good experiences with them and ICE and I know no one who has been put through the ringer by them. BP in my experience are usually quite good- and easy going.

70extreme
02-15-2011, 4:42 AM
I have never been to Germany. Therefore, it does not exist.

The Director
02-15-2011, 6:29 AM
I have never been to Germany. Therefore, it does not exist.

I'd never met Feinstein in person either and tried to say the same.

MrClamperSir
02-15-2011, 8:44 AM
I can dismiss it because in the 31 years I have been alive I have never seen anything as has been described, and I'm betting most people who don't live in a border region are the same way. I drive 30k miles a year every year and have never seen a BP checkpoint. Its hard to condition the public to become accustomed to a police state when they aren't doing it to most of the public, so that theory is ridiculous on its face.

Only checkpoints I have ever traveled through are drunk driver check points, and I've never seen an officer at one of those do more than ask for a license and if you've been drinking. Hardly a police state. I usually spend the time chatting it up with them, asking them how many drunks they have gotten off the road today, and telling them what a good job they are doing by doing so. Maybe I'm just getting them in too much of a good mood to feel the wrath of the police state coming down on me. :rolleyes:

Well I've also been through those agricultural checkpoints on the state line, but that's hardly a police state either.

I'm all for stopping inappropriate behavior by police and border patrol, but when you make up some crazy conspiracy against the public as the reasoning behind it, you then ignore the true cause and as such are unable to comprehend a real solution to the problem. You can't fix something you refuse to understand. Again tin foil hat time :TFH::TFH::TFH:

So here’s the deal, I can see why it’s hard swallow the "gearing up for a police state" thing especially when, as you say, it’s not happening to most of us. Therefore it’s hard to image anyone is setting the stage for all citizens by only conditioning a few at a time in small ways far off on the borders. However if you think about it your lack of alarm or at least the lack of preparedness to accept that it is a possibility of things to come demonstrates how the conditioning spreads without being directly involved.

Over the years this behavior is slowly being accepted (air travel being a great example) and most people are already half way there when it does reach them. If you’re not one who is half way to accepting these things as normal, certainly your neighbors and those around you are. When it comes time for you to accept it (like when you’re forced to comply with whatever the state tells you) and you resist, those friends and neighbors will be accusing you of wearing a tinfoil hat.


I personally don’t see it as a conspiracy or an evil intent, rather an encroachment that never loses its drive. For example, the state says to itself, if we operate like this today then tomorrow we have to do this to be effective. It just keeps going and going and going until there is no freedom left. It's what government does on a natural lever. That's why we were given the Constituition in the first place. The founding fathers had a great understanding of government’s natural leanings.

70extreme
02-15-2011, 10:01 AM
One of the reasons why this thread was noticed was because of the title

"Active military getting harassed by border patrol???"

There is an unconscious idea held by many that military are more important and special than regular citizens. This is just like how everyone freaks out when a cop is killed. No one bats an eye when the guy down the street getting killed is no big deal. We are all equal.

Their programming works better than you think.

Carnivore
02-15-2011, 5:47 PM
Carnivore, thank you for your input. Can you point me to something that documents that we do not have to move to secondary? I hope that you are right and I just want some proof because I WILL REFUSE TO GO TO SECONDARY NEXT TIME.

The true Patriots are not those that stick a flag on their car. They are the non-violent persons who resist the police state.

Well this is a situation of "how do I prove you can change lanes on the freeway legally". You can because there is no law against it. IF you do it wrong then it is illegal but only what you did wrong not the land change it's self.

Because they have to have PC to send you to secondary, if they have none you don't have to go. Failure to say your citizenship isn't PC but if he/she/it says you have a broken accent and I think you may be here in the states illegally, then you have to goto secondary. If they say you have brown skin, that is a different thing all together. Brown skin is not PC. If they say I smell marijuana, then you have to goto secondary. If they say I think there are drugs in the car....nope.

If you plan on not complying make sure your car is clean on the inside and nothing is illegal in the vehicle. If they see a knife in the back seat it is legal so no PC but if they see just the scabbard or the handle end poking out from under the seat, that could be a concealed weapon and then off to secondary.


What I mean by "you don't have to go" is they can't just send you there because they "want to". They have to have PC. Like cops at your front door, just because they say they have a warrant doesn't mean they do. Make them prove it. Be calm, polite and assured you are right. Don't be bullied and make sure they know you are taping them. It is the great equalizer.

The above said remember that any "authority figure" that is told NO can snap. If they are all jacked up on Mt Dew and jerkostorone they might force the issue with a night stick of tazer. Doubtful but it can happen. Make sure you want this potential frostbite before you jump in the frozen pond.

DesertGunner
02-15-2011, 7:37 PM
Because they have to have PC to send you to secondary, if they have none you don't have to go.

I'd suggest you not give legal advice if you don't know the law. As I've stated several times, referral to secondary does not require PC, only the levels of suspicion I listed earlier.

ArtSki
02-15-2011, 9:45 PM
BP is staffed largely with arrogant thugs on a power trip.

I remember an incident that happened to two a few fellow Marines way back when.

Some BP idiots wanted to see their "green" cards (one was Puerto Rican and 2 were Filipino). The only green cards these Devildogs had 9or needed) was their Military ID. They showed to the BP idiots but it wasn't enough for the fools.

The BP folks wanted them to pull into the secondary search area. They said @#$! you and drove away (with several BP fools giving chase). They drove all the way to the San Mateo gate of Pendleton with these idiots chasing them with lights and sirens. They pulled up to the gate, showed their ID, and explained why the BP vehicles were chasing them (they had managed to get a few seconds lead on the BP vehicles).

The MP at the gate waved them thru and then stood in the middle of the road to stop the BP vehicles. When they demanded entry to pursue, the MP told them the occupants were all U.S. Marines and to "go the @#$! away". :)

BP filed an offical complaint. It didn't go anywhere. The 3 Marines in the car didn't get into any trouble. The MP however did into a little since he was less than professional with the BP idiots.

I myself have blown thru that same checkpoint a couple of times. They never gave chase on those ocassions. ;)

I call BS on this story. Fleeing an immigration checkpoint is a felony and all parties involved, including the MP would be in big trouble, so either BP didn't push it and these idiots got lucky, or (more than likely) it didn't happen at all. MP's know their role and if they see another LE agency in pursuit of someone trying to get through the gate they are not going to simply wave them through. Good story though...

Carnivore
02-15-2011, 11:54 PM
I'd suggest you not give legal advice if you don't know the law. As I've stated several times, referral to secondary does not require PC, only the levels of suspicion I listed earlier.

Hence the reason I put in examples. That's ok you can say tomato and I will say tomahto all day long.

DesertGunner
02-16-2011, 12:39 AM
Yes, we could indeed go all day. Except I'll be right and you won't be. I'm all for people having their own opinion about what the law should be (this is America, after all.) But you are ignorant of the law and giving bad advice that could land someone in jail.

AEC1
02-16-2011, 6:52 AM
I call BS on this story. Fleeing an immigration checkpoint is a felony and all parties involved, including the MP would be in big trouble, so either BP didn't push it and these idiots got lucky, or (more than likely) it didn't happen at all. MP's know their role and if they see another LE agency in pursuit of someone trying to get through the gate they are not going to simply wave them through. Good story though...

Nope, I remember seeing it in the news down here in San Diego. 100% accurate story.

Wherryj
02-16-2011, 7:34 AM
Glad someone knows their rights when it comes to these checkpoints. Way to go!!! I think those checkpoints are a bunch of BS and wonder why the masses haven't stood up to them and demanded their discontinuance.

These checkpoints are just as questionably legal as the other "safety check/DUI, etc." checkpoints. Yet here we are. Many people are becoming conditioned to these and feel that somehow they are obliged to provide any and all requested information.

30rdMag
02-16-2011, 7:49 AM
I have passed thru a bunch of check points, Never had any problems. I also go out and shoot guns and shoot photos down south next to the border.
I have always had my window down a few cars ahead of the check point. I do not act odd or nervous. I let them see that I have nothing to worry about and always get waved thru. And I drive a white lifted GMC with 20 wheels, 35 inch tires and dark tinted windows. My truck is always covered in dirt as I off road a lot.

Only thing I have ever worried about down south is a drug or human smuggler trying to take my .50
But since I never mess around when out shooting. I am sure if I was ever watched and I am sure I have been. I've had that feeling before. They would see that there is easier targets out there.

30rdMag
02-16-2011, 7:59 AM
Also add for the scared. Get a case or a way to hands free your phone. When you roll into something. Or get pulled over. Click the video record on the phone. Record the whole stop. Make sure to state your name and ask them for theirs for the audio.
Even better is to call your voice mail and record that way. Then they have no way to delete or remove the recording.

Just remember always be cool. Its like the DMV lady.. She is always in a bad mood. She deals with everyone that has the worst problem in the world.

Smile... Say Hi and be nice.. It will get you ahead.. My grandfather taught me that.

Bizcuits
02-16-2011, 8:51 AM
The people who have problems are surprisingly the ones who act like *****s... "I'll refuse to roll down my window"... Great make the guy or gals job harder...

Roll the down window down, tell em your a citizen and move on... I didn't want the linked video, but watched the embedded one and all I saw was a moron in a vehicle, picking a fight with the border patrol officer... They are human too and will get pissed when you act like an *******.... Cops surprisingly aren't cloned jack booted nazi's who lack emotion...

70extreme
02-16-2011, 9:24 AM
The people who have problems are surprisingly the ones who act like *****s... "I'll refuse to roll down my window"

Wrong. You are not a "*****" if you expect to travel in your own freaking country without stopping at a checkpoint. I don't need their permission to travel. You think if you lick their boots and grovel, they will leave you alone. That is funny.

"Roll the down window down, tell em your a citizen and move on"

Again wrong. Most of the time they do not ask your citizenship. They ask a variety of questions that are NONE of their business like

Where are you going?
Where are you coming from?
What is the relationship of yourself to the passenger?
What have you been doing?
Can I look in your trunk?

You have no clue.

ArtSki
02-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Nope, I remember seeing it in the news down here in San Diego. 100% accurate story.

Still sounds like BS, doesn't seem like a news worthy story. Either way, those marines are lucky that no charges were filed. You can question the legality of the checkpoint all you want, but running from one is a felony.

Decoligny
02-16-2011, 12:55 PM
Still sounds like BS, doesn't seem like a news worthy story. Either way, those marines are lucky that no charges were filed. You can question the legality of the checkpoint all you want, but running from one is a felony.

Please cite the law making this a felony. I like to be able to quote sources and know that the information is accurate.

ArtSki
02-16-2011, 2:40 PM
Please cite the law making this a felony. I like to be able to quote sources and know that the information is accurate.

Look it up, Title 18 USC Section 758

AEC1
02-16-2011, 4:09 PM
Whoever flees or evades a checkpoint operated by the Immigration
and Naturalization Service, or any other Federal law enforcement
agency, in a motor vehicle and flees Federal, State, or local law
enforcement agents in excess of the legal speed limit shall be
fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or
both.


That is the text, it only says it is a crime if you speed while doing it. Even then it fines or jail, doesent sound like feloney to me.

30rdMag
02-16-2011, 4:20 PM
Border patrol has 10 closed. Big check point going car to car. Just drove through it. About 100 officers ... lots of cars pulled off for inspections. About 10 miles to california border in arizona

30rdMag
02-16-2011, 4:33 PM
"Roll the down window down, tell em your a citizen and move on"

Again wrong. Most of the time they do not ask your citizenship. They ask a variety of questions that are NONE of their business like

You have no clue.
The sole question asked 20 minutes ago....

I rolled window down about six cars back from the front.. both hands on wheel.

Bp : hi. You a US citizen?

Me: yes

Bp: thanks have a nice day....

To me... its a small price to pay to keep the terrorists out.. I have nothing to hide anyways..keep the check points coming.. not to long ago they found that terrorism handbook out in the desert of arizona anyways

Southwest Chuck
02-16-2011, 4:35 PM
Whoever flees or evades a checkpoint operated by the Immigration
and Naturalization Service, or any other Federal law enforcement
agency, in a motor vehicle and flees Federal, State, or local law
enforcement agents in excess of the legal speed limit shall be
fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or
both.


That is the text, it only says it is a crime if you speed while doing it. Even then it fines or jail, doesent sound like feloney to me.

Sounds to me that you have to flee in a vehicle and exceed the speed limit. Take off on foot and you're good to go! :D

jonnyt16
02-16-2011, 6:08 PM
To me... its a small price to pay to keep the terrorists out.. I have nothing to hide anyways..keep the check points coming.. not to long ago they found that terrorism handbook out in the desert of arizona anyways
Wow, that is a very disturbing comment. Never thought I'd read something like that in a gun forum. I suppose you have no problem with the Patriot Act either....Federal agents listening in on your private phone conversations without a warrant? Like you said, you have nothing to hide anyways, right? Small price to pay to keep the terrorists out, right?

Ya know, everyone that is calling that guy in the video a "jerk" or a "*****" or bashing him for "being a pain in the *** to the BP", it kinda reminds me of that old poem by Martin Niemöller:

When they locked up the social democrats,
I did not speak out;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
As I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
As I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

30rdMag
02-16-2011, 6:55 PM
Dude I am sure soon after me buying my 1st .50 I was put on a list somewhere. But should I worry about spy satalites tracking me everyday? Welcome to living post 9/11

Its only going to get better ...

As for cell phones? Yeah it ok with me. Im sure they get a kick out of me randomly adding words in my conversation. Like kilo, cocaine, gun, explosive ....

Stop living in a conspiracy life.

Sniper3142
02-16-2011, 6:56 PM
Still sounds like BS, doesn't seem like a news worthy story. Either way, those marines are lucky that no charges were filed. You can question the legality of the checkpoint all you want, but running from one is a felony.

This happened a LONG time ago (1989-1990) and the Corps was a much different animal back then.

We were all in 3/9 and had just gotten back from Okinawa so things hadn't quite settled down yet. Jarheads sometimes do some not so bright things once and a while and this was one of them. You have to give the young pups a lot of slack sometimes. ;)

ArtSki
02-16-2011, 7:28 PM
Whoever flees or evades a checkpoint operated by the Immigration
and Naturalization Service, or any other Federal law enforcement
agency, in a motor vehicle and flees Federal, State, or local law
enforcement agents in excess of the legal speed limit shall be
fined under this title, imprisoned not more than five years, or
both.


That is the text, it only says it is a crime if you speed while doing it. Even then it fines or jail, doesent sound like feloney to me.

Misdemeanor - A criminal offense that is less serious than a felony and generally punishable by a fine, a jail term of up to a year, or both.

Felony - A serious crime usually punishable by a prison term of more than one year.

Decoligny
02-16-2011, 8:20 PM
Look it up, Title 18 USC Section 758

Thanks

70extreme
02-17-2011, 8:22 AM
"... its a small price to pay to keep the terrorists out.. I have nothing to hide anyways..keep the check points coming.. not to long ago they found that terrorism handbook out in the desert of arizona anyways."

30rndmag, I am embarrassed to call you a fellow American. Since you have nothing to hide, I am sure you wouldn't mind if their made random unannounced inspections of your home too. How about body cavity searches too? I am sure that is fine too since you have nothing to hide.

Your childlike faith in our government is mind boggling. Do you know anything about history?

Smokeybehr
02-17-2011, 8:49 AM
The last time that I went through one of the BP checkpoints was in the middle of the New Mexico desert at about 0400. I was in my car with CA plates, and as I rolled up to the booth, I dimmed my lights, rolled down my window, and waited for the "usual questions". All I got was "How are you this morning?" to which I replied "Good, how about you?" The next words out of his mouth were "Have a safe trip" and he waved me on. No citizenship questions, no "Where are you going", "Where are you coming from", etc. questions.

Of course, that was 10ish years ago, and the BP agents might have turned into total a-holes since then.

Jack L
02-17-2011, 9:09 AM
I posted before but have to add to this once more. For me it's not a matter of defending my rights. There are so many games being played out in politics or with ATF or whoever makes decisions for BP that I can't keep up. For me I usually want to be free of hassle and get about doing what I came down south for which usually is seeing my buddies and shooting our firearms. So I have my windows down, hands on the wheel, radio off, and often my sunglasses off. Depending on the BP, I have been asked simple questions or no questions and simple waved through the check point. The main thing for me is I want to spend about 10 seconds at the stop and get the heck out of there. Sort of like survival in the brave new world. I'll let all you younger guys fight it out with LE or BP or the courts, whoever, while I'm out in the desert shooting. I have never been hassled with my approach at the check points. Maybe not for everyone. For the warriors here on Calguns, keep up the good fight. See you out on BLM land someday.

VAPA
02-24-2011, 8:35 PM
What happened here was "contempt of cop", the driver of the vehicle was completely within his rights but the border patrol agents did not like the fact that the driver would not submit to their every whim. There are officers, agents and civilian employees from every agency who can not stand it when someone questions their authority.

The best way that I can explain it is that law enforcement is a game with rules and boundaries; officers must follow all of the rules, all other people may choose to play by those rules or not at all but there is no other choice for law enforcement. I am not saying that law enforcement officers never break the rules but when they do, often times they get called to the mat by the Supreme Court. If those agents wanted to get into the car they needed to build their probable cause or reasonable suspicion, if they were unable to do that then they need to shrug their shoulders and walk away.

Who polices the Police. This "reverse sting" keeps people honest and insures that they play the game by the rules. This is also the reason that many law enforcement agencies provide video cameras for patrol vehicles, have policies that officers "Must" tape record all contacts with people and are even now fielding micro video cameras which must be worn by the officers. I am all for law enforcement doing their job and catching the bad guys but there is a rule book for them to play by and thankfully the prologue to that book is the constitution.

Bear in mind that this was written by a police officer and an oath keeper.

Thank you very very much for your service. From a fellow Oath Keeper...