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Helpful_Cub
02-10-2011, 9:12 PM
I'm training my new pointer and I'm trying to ease him into not being gun shy. The classic way of doing this is to fire off .22 cal short blanks in a field while he's running around doing his thing. I've bought a .22 cal Heritage Revolver just for this purpose.

I plan to say away from school zones. Other than that, do I have any other legal concerns for discharging blanks in LA, Kern or San Bernardino county?

From the county laws I've found, Kern and San Bernardino don't seem to care as long as its not in a city. LA county code doesn't really even seem to discuss it which makes me nervous because I know how non-gun friendly they can be.

Cokebottle
02-10-2011, 9:17 PM
A discharge is a discharge, whether a blank or a "live" round.

Keep in mind that without an adapter, your gun will not likely cycle blanks properly, but either way, you may only discharge blanks where it would be legal to discharge the real thing.

Helpful_Cub
02-10-2011, 9:28 PM
A discharge is a discharge, whether a blank or a "live" round.

Keep in mind that without an adapter, your gun will not likely cycle blanks properly, but either way, you may only discharge blanks where it would be legal to discharge the real thing.

I was thinking along those lines until I thought of Track and Field events. They use start pistols all the time to "discharge" blanks. So maybe if I can get an "adapter" I'm good to go even in a school zone.

Cokebottle
02-10-2011, 9:40 PM
I was thinking along those lines until I thought of Track and Field events. They use start pistols all the time to "discharge" blanks. So maybe if I can get an "adapter" I'm good to go even in a school zone.
Specific permission is granted.

Even with an adapter, you would still be discharging a firearm.

snobord99
02-10-2011, 9:58 PM
A discharge is a discharge, whether a blank or a "live" round.

Keep in mind that without an adapter, your gun will not likely cycle blanks properly, but either way, you may only discharge blanks where it would be legal to discharge the real thing.

I'm not sure how true this is. I've considered this question briefly myself before and did some really quick research.

The only PC I can think of that prohibits the discharge of a firearm (not aimed at another person, dwelling, house, etc) is the PC covering negligent discharge (PC §246.3). PC 246.3 states in pertinent part, "any person who willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public offense." Personally, I don't think firing a blank could result in injury or death to a person.

That said, this only covers the Cal Penal Code; I don't know about Muni Codes...

Helpful_Cub
02-10-2011, 10:00 PM
Specific permission is granted.

Even with an adapter, you would still be discharging a firearm.

No offense but I would find it really hard to believe that LA School Board petitions every Sheriff for permission to hold these events.

I think I did stumble across something in the LA County codes however using your "discharge" working. Apparently it is alright to discharge a firearm in a "Less-restrictive District" as long as the bullet is limited to half-mile or less. That works because a blank doesn't go anywhere.

Cokebottle
02-10-2011, 10:04 PM
I'm not sure how true this is. I've considered this question briefly myself before and did some really quick research.

The only PC I can think of that prohibits the discharge of a firearm (not aimed at another person, dwelling, house, etc) is the PC covering negligent discharge (PC §246.3). PC 246.3 states in pertinent part, "any person who willfully discharges a firearm in a grossly negligent manner which could result in injury or death to a person is guilty of a public offense." Personally, I don't think firing a blank could result in injury or death to a person.

That said, this only covers the Cal Penal Code; I don't know about Muni Codes...
Muni is what gets you. Discharge within city limits is pretty much universally verboten.
No offense but I would find it really hard to believe that LA School Board petitions every Sheriff for permission to hold these events.
The Superintendent of Schools can grant permission.

emcon5
02-10-2011, 10:20 PM
The obvious difference is the high school track team isn't using a firearm. They are using a blank firing starter's pistol.

Like this one: http://www.amazon.com/22-Caliber-Starter-Pistol/dp/B002VLHHD4

Product Description
The Olympic 6 is an affordable starter pistol and dog training pistol. It fires single or double action. The cylinder swings open to accept eight (8) inexpensive .22 caliber blanks. This replica gun cannot be converted to fire live ammo. The barrel is plugged and has a red dot at the end in compliance with ATF regulations. No federal license required. Item Features: Caliber : .22 Crimps Finish : Black Length : 7" Overall, 2" Barrel Weight : 13 oz Rounds : 8 Grips : Plastic Action : Single & Double Will only fire ammo for starter pistols. Can not be made to fire other blanks or real ammo of any type

j-rod
02-10-2011, 10:21 PM
Personally, I don't think firing a blank could result in injury or death to a person.

I seem to recall several actors dying from blanks.

http://propguys.com/gundanger/

snobord99
02-10-2011, 10:22 PM
Muni is what gets you. Discharge within city limits is pretty much universally verboten.

Yes, I would assume as much; however, that doesn't mean every city has a Muni Code covering it. I can't seem to find one for LA. I would think they're the one city that would cover that, but, at the same time, I could see the legislators in the city to have their heads too far up their [where the sun don't shine] that they actually forgot or decided to just let the PC take care of it.

snobord99
02-10-2011, 10:28 PM
I seem to recall several actors dying from blanks.

http://propguys.com/gundanger/

Seems like most of them died from using what they thought were blanks. The ones actually using blanks...I don't have much to say other than they probably can't kill unless your head is within a foot or two of the firearm.

AlexDD
02-10-2011, 10:33 PM
Wouldn't it depend on the city code? Using the example below you could argue that since a starter gun doesn't fire a projectile it is permitted unless otherwise prohibited in the code say like a noise ordinance.

Here is Newport Beach's code:

"10.24.010 Discharge of Weapons—Permission Required.
It is declared unlawful for any person or persons, except peace officers in the discharge of their duties, to discharge or cause to be discharged within the corporate limits of the City of Newport Beach any rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver or other firearm, or any air-gun, air-pistol or air-rifle, or any other device which forcefully discharges a projectile from a barrel, unless the person or persons have first obtained permission in writing so to do from the Chief of Police. (Ord. 2004-11 § 1, 2004: Ord. 614 (part), 1950: 1949 Code § 4231)"

I open carry
02-10-2011, 10:38 PM
A true starting pistol is not classified a firearm. It has no barrel , can not fire a projectile.

Decoligny
02-11-2011, 7:49 AM
I'm training my new pointer and I'm trying to ease him into not being gun shy. The classic way of doing this is to fire off .22 cal short blanks in a field while he's running around doing his thing. I've bought a .22 cal Heritage Revolver just for this purpose.

I plan to say away from school zones. Other than that, do I have any other legal concerns for discharging blanks in LA, Kern or San Bernardino county?

From the county laws I've found, Kern and San Bernardino don't seem to care as long as its not in a city. LA county code doesn't really even seem to discuss it which makes me nervous because I know how non-gun friendly they can be.

A discharge is a discharge, whether a blank or a "live" round.

Keep in mind that without an adapter, your gun will not likely cycle blanks properly, but either way, you may only discharge blanks where it would be legal to discharge the real thing.

I thought you just had to pull the trigger on a revolver to get it to cycle correctly. If I am not mistaken, you can get a revolver to cycle perfectly even without any ammunition in the cylinders. :rolleyes:

CHS
02-11-2011, 8:10 AM
I thought you just had to pull the trigger on a revolver to get it to cycle correctly. If I am not mistaken, you can get a revolver to cycle perfectly even without any ammunition in the cylinders. :rolleyes:

Beat me to it :)

Wherryj
02-11-2011, 8:30 AM
Seems like most of them died from using what they thought were blanks. The ones actually using blanks...I don't have much to say other than they probably can't kill unless your head is within a foot or two of the firearm.

Actually, Lee was killed with a blank-combined with an undiscovered foreign object in the barrel-at about 20 feet. Blanks CAN kill because they can act as the propellant for any object inside the barrel. They need to be considered the same as a live round. ALWAYS assume that the firearm is loaded, even with a blank.

Ross
02-11-2011, 8:42 AM
Take a few primers, lay them on the ground and smack with a hammer. YOu haven't discharged a weapon or gun and the dog will get used to the sound.

My brittanys come to investigate when I do it.

Neighbors don't seem to mind either. Not sure what a copper will say though.

mdimeo
02-11-2011, 9:22 AM
Take a few primers, lay them on the ground and smack with a hammer. .

Simpler and safer: buy a powder-actuated nail gun at home depot. These are used to pound nails into concrete using a .22 blank (which home depot also sells). Plenty loud for your purposes, cheap enough, and 100% clear it's not a firearm or a firework (which I'd worry about with the primer trick, above).

Ramset HammerShot .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool is about $22, and 100 blanks are $7.
This is the kind where you have to hit it with a hammer to fire it, but there are $50 ones with triggers.

snobord99
02-11-2011, 9:53 AM
Actually, Lee was killed with a blank-combined with an undiscovered foreign object in the barrel-at about 20 feet. Blanks CAN kill because they can act as the propellant for any object inside the barrel. They need to be considered the same as a live round. ALWAYS assume that the firearm is loaded, even with a blank.

I'm talking about just a blank, not a blank + _____.

CHS
02-11-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm talking about just a blank, not a blank + _____.

A blank in a firearm with a clear barrel ejects enough hot gas at a high enough velocity that it WILL kill you at point blank range (several people have died this way including an old-time famous actor).

Most "blank guns" though have a blocked barrel with a vent that goes upwards. You could hold one of these against your head and pull the trigger and you would be fine, if not stupider and deafer for the action.

So yes, a blank in a normal firearm can and will kill you.

BlindRacer
02-11-2011, 12:08 PM
The classic way of doing this is to fire off .22 cal short blanks in a field while he's running around doing his thing.

Why not use a modern way?

Get some 'gun shot' mp3's, and put them on a player with a loudspeaker that you bring to the field. You'd have on demand gun fire. With a good loudspeaker, you could get the decibels pretty high, and during the day time, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have any problem. Maybe some couriosity, but no legal troubles.

CHS
02-11-2011, 1:00 PM
Why not use a modern way?

Get some 'gun shot' mp3's, and put them on a player with a loudspeaker that you bring to the field. You'd have on demand gun fire. With a good loudspeaker, you could get the decibels pretty high, and during the day time, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have any problem. Maybe some couriosity, but no legal troubles.

It's very hard to actually replicate the extremely high impulse crack of a firearm with speakers.

So this method may not work properly.

Then again, these are dogs we're talking about. Maybe it's fine? :)

BlindRacer
02-11-2011, 1:03 PM
It's extremely hard to actually replicate the extremely high impulse crack of a firearm with speakers.

So this method may not work properly.

Then again, these are dogs we're talking about. Maybe it's fine? :)

Yeah, you're probably right. I don't think a loudspeaker can reach 150+ db.

I've never had to do this, so I don't know. Is it the sudden sound that they have to get used to, or is it the db level?

Tripper
02-11-2011, 1:32 PM
the AG industry uses blank firing devices to scare away the birds, on timers, all day long, the only thing they have to worry about is how far away it can be heard. so as not to violate law ordinances.

Lemme find a link to one of those, I know I have it here somewhere, it would seem that it would actually be pretty good for training.

Tripper

Tripper
02-11-2011, 1:42 PM
aha
Here's whats common around here
its a 15mm Single Shot Launcher,

http://www.wildlifecontrolsupplies.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NWS001&Product_Code=NWS15MMSSL&Category_Code=WCS2600

it can be used as a launcher, for other purposes, but you can also simply place the blank on the nub, and pull the trigger to make it go bang. it uses a 22 blank equivalent.
a lot cheaper I'd think than actual 22 blanks.

Tripper

BigDogatPlay
02-11-2011, 2:34 PM
You might also consider a retriever dummy launcher (http://www.gundogsupply.com/retdumlunsys.html) which will get the dogs used to the report, teach them to go find what falls from the sky, bring it back... and is not a firearm.

:D

Munk
02-11-2011, 2:46 PM
Simpler and safer: buy a powder-actuated nail gun at home depot. These are used to pound nails into concrete using a .22 blank (which home depot also sells). Plenty loud for your purposes, cheap enough, and 100% clear it's not a firearm or a firework (which I'd worry about with the primer trick, above).

Ramset HammerShot .22 Caliber Single Shot Tool is about $22, and 100 blanks are $7.
This is the kind where you have to hit it with a hammer to fire it, but there are $50 ones with triggers.



I was going to chime in with this as well.

You can also go to quite a few shooting ranges that feature trap or sporting clays and have your dog run around. Many of them have grassy areas where you can leave your dog leashed up and run around. Just keep them leashed if they're not exactly obedient or if you don't know how they'll react to gunfire.

ScottB
02-11-2011, 2:47 PM
I wouldn't use a pistol starter or otherwise for introduction to gunfire. It has a sharp report that is unpleasant to the dog (same with us, but way worse for them). Going to a shotgun-only range on a slow day and starting out a couple hundred yards from the fields and gradually moving up - I would not do this in any less than fifteen minutes. Take some treats and a favorite toy and play with the dog as you gradually move closer. Be relaxed and keep the dog entertained. Watch how he reacts to the noise. Curious is good, play off his interest and encourage him to investigate. Watch him. He'll tell you very clearly what's on his mind. If he is fearful, re-engage him in play and don't move closer. Come back a day or so later and repeat. Do this until you can take him up to the field on a leash and he is calm. If there is a break in shooting (at all fields) use the opportunity to take him up to the line and let him sniff around and be a happy puppy and get petted by everyone. Then calmly move back away before the shooting starts (we only have two fields at my club, so this is easy) and continue the process. Many dogs have no issue with noise and all of this will seem a tad elaborate, but its worth it to go through the exercise because gunshyness is hard to correct - often impossible.

Step two, associate gunfire with game. You have already piqued the dog's interest in birds by letting him search and find some planted pigeons - which you flush and do not shoot any gun, etc. (bird work is another lesson) Once he is totally captivated by the whole bird flushing and flying away thing, then you move to the starter pistol or small gauge shotgun and eventually to shooting the birds. All of this is done on a checkcord!

When you get to the gun part, rather than buy blanks, go to the hardware store and use nail sets for about a third the price (same goes for the dummy launcher if you get one (my dogs' favorite toy). Mid power for the launcher, low power for noise. My training gun for starting a young pointer is a solid barrel starter type pistol that uses 209 primers and they are plenty loud. I know guys that have used cap guns for this part of the training and they work fine when you can't discharge a firearm. Its a only very short period during training that you are using blanks. As soon as the dog has the whole steady to flush thing figured out and stops trying to chase the bird, you'll switch to a shotgun and start shooting the birds as you teach steadiness to wing, shot and fall.

snobord99
02-11-2011, 5:20 PM
A blank in a firearm with a clear barrel ejects enough hot gas at a high enough velocity that it WILL kill you at point blank range (several people have died this way including an old-time famous actor).

Most "blank guns" though have a blocked barrel with a vent that goes upwards. You could hold one of these against your head and pull the trigger and you would be fine, if not stupider and deafer for the action.

So yes, a blank in a normal firearm can and will kill you.

You need to read that in conjunction with what I wrote earlier. Namely, "they probably can't kill unless your head is within a foot or two of the firearm."

Helpful_Cub
02-11-2011, 8:34 PM
Thanks everyone for the ideas. It sounds to me like I need to just avoid using an actually revolver and use something that's more acceptable to the populace.