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View Full Version : Can a 50 year old shotgund be FTF C&C?


mj1
02-10-2011, 8:35 AM
I have an old Browning OU made in 1957 can I sell it FTF cash and carry? I don't know the original dat of the design but old John died a long time ago.

I PM'ed a few of the good guys here but got no reply so I'm asking the general public for help.

Thank you.
...MJ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/6bf2f53f.jpg

Reductio
02-10-2011, 8:41 AM
Longarm? Check.
Over 50 years old? Check.

You're gtg, and it's C&R.....

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 9:15 AM
Yep,

I bought an early 50's broadway lightning superposed on my C&R licence.

stix213
02-10-2011, 11:48 AM
As long as its in its original configuration (which from the pic it looks to be).

For example, if you had replaced the stock with some new synthetic stock it would no longer be C&R until you put the original stock back.

Flintlock Tom
02-10-2011, 12:20 PM
I believe, in California, it just has to be over 50 years old. The state makes no distinction about configuration.
Also, it has to be between two residents of California.

BigDogatPlay
02-10-2011, 12:22 PM
Where are you and how much? ;)

professionalcoyotehunter
02-10-2011, 12:24 PM
I am already buying it but he was concerned if I could cash and carry it. :D

BigDogatPlay
02-10-2011, 12:25 PM
I am already buying it but he was concerned if I could cash and carry it. :D

Yeah I saw his FS post but had to pull chain a little.... nice catch for you. ;)

professionalcoyotehunter
02-10-2011, 12:26 PM
Thanks buddy. I have always wanted one.

Dr Rockso
02-10-2011, 12:29 PM
I believe, in California, it just has to be over 50 years old. The state makes no distinction about configuration.

Nope, per 12078 it must meet three requirements, one of which is Federal C&R status. Per the BATFE a firearm must be in original (or near-original) configuration to have Federal C&R status.

Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or
relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date,

So the requirements for transactions without the involvement of a CA dealer are:
1. not a handgun
2. a curio and relic, as defined by Federal law
3. 50 years old

professionalcoyotehunter
02-10-2011, 12:35 PM
It is all original so it is good to go.

Fissssh
02-10-2011, 2:56 PM
Nope, per 12078 it must meet three requirements, one of which is Federal C&R status. Per the BATFE a firearm must be in original (or near-original) configuration to have Federal C&R status.



So the requirements for transactions without the involvement of a CA dealer are:
1. not a handgun
2. a curio and relic, as defined by Federal law
3. 50 years old

What if the stock is synthetic but the same design?

professionalcoyotehunter
02-10-2011, 3:16 PM
That would not be original.

-hanko
02-10-2011, 3:22 PM
Nope, per 12078 it must meet three requirements, one of which is Federal C&R status. Per the BATFE a firearm must be in original (or near-original) configuration to have Federal C&R status.

So the requirements for transactions without the involvement of a CA dealer are:
1. not a handgun
2. a curio and relic, as defined by Federal law
3. 50 years old
:confused::confused:
Numbers 2. and 3. are redundant...

Feds define C&R in two ways:

First, ANY gun that's at least 50 years old is C&R.

Second, the Feds list other guns that by their historic interest and/or other factors they define as C&R. You can read the list on the atf website.

Which means that CA does not require the gun to be on a list...CA is concerned about age and OP is good to go.

-hanko

Dr Rockso
02-10-2011, 3:33 PM
:confused::confused:
Numbers 2. and 3. are redundant...

Feds define C&R in two ways:

First, ANY gun that's at least 50 years old is C&R.

Second, the Feds list other guns that by their historic interest and/or other factors they define as C&R. You can read the list on the atf website.

Which means that CA does not require the gun to be on a list...CA is concerned about age and OP is good to go.

-hanko

Any gun in its original configuration is C&R provided it's 50 years old. An SKS, regardless of the fact that it's 50 years old, is not C&R if it has one of those Tapco pistol-grip stocks on it. Of course this is all just ATF rule-making, but they're the ones who enforce the rules....

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#modifications
Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable-for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the shotgun in question, which is clearly cash & carry eligible.

AJAX22
02-10-2011, 3:49 PM
The originality of condition does NOT matter

C&R's can be C&R either of two ways..

By age, or by virtue of being deemed 'collectible'

If a C&R is NOT 50 years old, then it must be in the configuration that was approved as C&R in order to be consider to still be C&R (like the yugo sks's)

I know there is debate on this somewhat, but the law as written is very clear.

The BATFE puts a number of conflicting letters out on this subject... but the statute is quite clear.

-hanko
02-10-2011, 11:05 PM
The originality of condition does NOT matter

C&R's can be C&R either of two ways..

By age, or by virtue of being deemed 'collectible'

If a C&R is NOT 50 years old, then it must be in the configuration that was approved as C&R in order to be consider to still be C&R (like the yugo sks's)

I know there is debate on this somewhat, but the law as written is very clear.

The BATFE puts a number of conflicting letters out on this subject... but the statute is quite clear.
Which was the point of my reply. ;)

-hanko

EOD Guy
02-11-2011, 6:58 AM
BATF's contention is that there are not 3 but 4 conditions for a firearm to be C&R.

The first condition is that the firearm must be of special interest to collectors. Their position is that if a firearm is not in original configuration it is not of special interest to collectors. It is then disqualified at that point and you don't get to go to the other defining criteria.

One letter I have states that very point in regards to barreled actions.

This is a major point of contention between collectors and BATF. BATF has not helped matters with their flip flopping and confusing letters. The only place you will find original configuration mentioned in the regulation is in the preamble where Congressional intent was discussed. And yes, courts do take Congressional intent into account when interpreting Federal regulations.

Unfortunately, when the 27CFR was originally published in the Federal Register, the web was still a dream and it is not online as far as I know. I'm sure it's available in some law library somewhere. A few years ago I tried looking in the library at Boalt Hall at UC Berkeley but couldn't find it. I no longer have staff privileges at UC since I retired from there so can't go back again.