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oso grande
02-09-2011, 11:38 AM
Local FFL bought gun before he got license. Can he PPT his off list pistol to me?
Thanks for your input.

OG

jtmkinsd
02-09-2011, 11:45 AM
Local FFL bought gun before he got license. Can he PPT his off list pistol to me?
Thanks for your input.

OG

Not a PPT (private party transfer), he would have to transfer the firearm from his personal book to his inventory book, then he could do a dealer transfer to you.

A dealer may transfer any firearm the same as any non-licensee as long as the firearm was not entered into his personal bound book less than a year from the date of transfer.

halifax
02-09-2011, 1:57 PM
Not a PPT (private party transfer), he would have to transfer the firearm from his personal book to his inventory book, then he could do a dealer transfer to you.

Wait a minute, if I have a non-rostered handgun that I have owned since before I became a licensee, I can't engage myself in a PPT!!!

ke6guj
02-09-2011, 2:02 PM
that is an interesting question. I know that federal law says that if you convert a firearm from your FFL to your personal property, that you must wait at least one year before you can transfer it privately. If you sell it less than a year from when it was logged out, you must log it back into your bound book and then 4473 it out to the buyer. That is to help prevent dealers from selling firearms to people without having to do the dealer paperwork.

regarding a firearm that was never on your books in the first place, I dunno what law would require him to treat it as a dealer sale.

halifax
02-09-2011, 2:06 PM
What if we (buyer and seller) just went to another dealer for the PPT?

kemasa
02-09-2011, 2:12 PM
I called the BATF and expect to get an confirmation back later, but the first answer is that as long as the firearm is transferred through a FFL, which is required in CA, then it does not matter and so the FFL can go to another FFL and do it as a PPT.

In the above case, since the firearm was purchased before the person had a FFL, the one year requirement to run it through the FFL's books does not apply. The person (the FFL in this case), is free to transfer the firearm in any legal way, such as a PPT through another dealer or even doing it himself. There is no requirement to run personal firearms through the FFL's books.

The one year requirement is to prevent a FFL from transferring a firearm to their own personal collection, then immediately selling it on the streets (other states do not have a requirement that private parties have to do the transfer through a FFL).

jtmkinsd
02-09-2011, 2:23 PM
Wait a minute, if I have a non-rostered handgun that I have owned since before I became a licensee, I can't engage myself in a PPT!!!

my apologies...I misread the question badly...kemasa is correct, the only requirement is the one year time lapse between transfer to personal book and sale.

kemasa
02-09-2011, 2:24 PM
Oh, there is also the issue of "shipping" the firearm, even if it is brought to the other FFL. Since the seller is a FFL, the delivery of a firearm to another FFL requires the CFLC. I don't think that there is any exemption for personal firearms of the FFL.

tenpercentfirearms
02-09-2011, 4:42 PM
I hashed this out some where else before.

The actual code says you cannot do a face to face transaction within a year of buying something for your personal collection. If you want to sell something from your personal collection, it must go on a 4473 or you must wait a year. Since we do everything in CA on a 4473 (at least private party transfers), then that one year exemption does not apply.

That rules is mainly made for Free America where face to face transfers can still occur.

kemasa
02-09-2011, 4:48 PM
Yep.

kemasa
02-10-2011, 9:33 AM
I got the response back from the BATF, who spoke to the legal department. The law is that if a FFL transfers a firearm to their own personal collection, they have to bring it back into their own book, which means that they don't personally own it at that point and could not do a PPT, only a dealer sale. If it was brought to another FFL, it would be coming from the FFL, not the person.

I doubt that the CA DOJ would have an issue with the DROS being submitted as a PPT, but they could. That is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

jtmkinsd
02-10-2011, 11:05 AM
I got the response back from the BATF, who spoke to the legal department. The law is that if a FFL transfers a firearm to their own personal collection, they have to bring it back into their own book, which means that they don't personally own it at that point and could not do a PPT, only a dealer sale. If it was brought to another FFL, it would be coming from the FFL, not the person.

I doubt that the CA DOJ would have an issue with the DROS being submitted as a PPT, but they could. That is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

By "own book", you mean the regular inventory bound book? That was what my original response was suggesting...but I've never sold a personal gun (I'm a hoarder :43:) so I wasn't 100% sure. And the FAQ on ATF website seems to suggest it's ok to PPT from personal collection as long as you don't do it before a year has elapsed from the time you transfer it to personal log.

kemasa
02-10-2011, 11:13 AM
Yes, your bound book. You have to run the firearm through your business if you try to sell it before a year is up. If instead of transferring it to your own personal collection, you transferred it to another FFL and had them do the transfer, then the limit of one year would not apply.

Any firearms purchased before you were a FFL does not apply, only those transferred to your own personal collection and only for one year after that transfer. It does not make sense since the firearm has to be transferred through a FFL in CA, but the Federal law does not recognize that aspect.

Yes, after a year, you can PPT the firearm. It is unclear as to whether it can be transferred as a PPT since a PPT is a CA issue, not Federal, the main issue is that you have to log it in to your bound book.

tenpercentfirearms
02-10-2011, 10:01 PM
I got the response back from the BATF, who spoke to the legal department. The law is that if a FFL transfers a firearm to their own personal collection, they have to bring it back into their own book, which means that they don't personally own it at that point and could not do a PPT, only a dealer sale. If it was brought to another FFL, it would be coming from the FFL, not the person.

I doubt that the CA DOJ would have an issue with the DROS being submitted as a PPT, but they could. That is a State issue, not a Federal issue.

Do a little more research on this Ken. First, how would you input a personal gun into your book as a PPT any differently from someone else and yourself? If you log it into your book so you can PPT it, it comes in from you. If you log it into your book to sell it as a transfer, it comes from you.

Second, the law is clear, the one year rule only applies if it is not sold on a 4473.

I know I hashed all of this out in a thread before, I just can't find it right now.

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That (1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, (2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by 478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition, (3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, and (4) The licensee enters the sale or other disposition of the firearm from the personal firearms collection into a bound record, under the format prescribed below, identifying the firearm transferred by recording the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge, and showing the date of the sale or other disposition, the name and address of the transferee, or the name and business address of the transferee if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a drivers license). The format required for the disposition record of personal firearms is as follows: Disposition Record of Personal Firearms ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Description of firearm Disposition ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name and address Manufacturer and/ Model Serial No. Type Caliber or Date (business Date of birth if or importer gauge address if nonlicensee licensee) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (b) Any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of a firearm from the licensee's personal firearms collection under this section shall be subject to the restrictions imposed by the Act and this part on the dispositions of firearms by persons other than licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and licensed dealers. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512 0387) [T.D. ATF270, 53 FR 10504, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF313, 56 FR 32509, July 17, 1991; T.D. ATF415, 63 FR 58280, Oct. 29, 1998]

Read more: http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/478-personal-firearms-collection-19675377#ixzz1DdCWkskQ

So you are not required submit a 4473 if you keep the gun for a year. Simply fill out a 4473 and that one year provision no longer applies.

kemasa
02-11-2011, 10:29 AM
I am not sure of what additional research you want me to do.

I agree that you should be able to do the transfer as a PPT since the DROS is a state thing, but was told by the BATF agent that it can not be done and as to be done as a dealer transfer according to the legal department. This person is a nice person and has been quite helpful, so it is not a random person to me.

I agree that it seems that if the 4473 is complied with that meets with what you posted. It seems to be that based on what you posted, a FFL should be able to take the firearm to another FFL and have the transfer done as a PPT, but that is NOT what I was told and I am just the messenger.

tenpercentfirearms
02-11-2011, 7:49 PM
I am not sure of what additional research you want me to do.

I agree that you should be able to do the transfer as a PPT since the DROS is a state thing, but was told by the BATF agent that it can not be done and as to be done as a dealer transfer according to the legal department. This person is a nice person and has been quite helpful, so it is not a random person to me.

I agree that it seems that if the 4473 is complied with that meets with what you posted. It seems to be that based on what you posted, a FFL should be able to take the firearm to another FFL and have the transfer done as a PPT, but that is NOT what I was told and I am just the messenger.
No offense taken. I provided the additional research.

Where does it prohibit a dealer from completing a PPT of their own firearms? I don't see it.

kemasa
02-12-2011, 7:55 AM
I am just repeating what I was told.

If the firearm has to be transferred into the bound book in order to sell it, then the FFL does not personally own it anymore. If that is the case, it can't be done as a PPT, BUT the DROS and PPT is a CA issue, not a Federal one. The Feds are saying that it has to be done as a "dealer sale", which does not really make sense since they can't control how you submit the CA DROS.

Under the section that you quoted, it does not seem to me that the requirement is actually that the FFL transfers it into their own bound book, just that the 4473 gets filled out, which would be the case if they took the firearm to another FFL and did a PPT.

So, I have to agree, I don't see it either, but that is the view I got from the BATF legal people. I doubt that there would be an issue, but you never know.

ugimports
02-12-2011, 1:24 PM
I'm all confused now.

So how much of this matters how your FFL is written up. E.g., my FFL is written up in my company name (UG Imports, LLC)? I'm the owner, but my name is nowhere to be seen on the FFL itself. Does this mean I cannot do purchase firearms for myself as a PPT because I'm also a dealer even though the license is my company?

Are all the responses above related to if the FFL is also your own name as many many people do and then do a DBA to run the business?

kemasa
02-12-2011, 1:33 PM
There is no issue regarding a FFL not being able to do a PPT, that aspect involves when you can do it. There is a requirement which involves firearms transferred to your personal collection and then transferred within a year, nothing more.

There could be a state issue, which I had not thought of before, regarding taking a firearm from your own personal collection and doing a PPT at another dealer with respect to the CFLC. The law is not specific to firearms for the business, but more general for firearms from a licensed person.

I suspect there is an issue with respect to how the license reads. I am not sure if you can transfer firearms to yourself from the business without the waiting period or not. I am sure that your name is on the paperwork regarding your LLC. I do know that there are issues with respect to corporations, but I don't know all the details.

ugimports
02-12-2011, 1:39 PM
There is no issue regarding a FFL not being able to do a PPT, that aspect involves when you can do it. There is a requirement which involves firearms transferred to your personal collection and then transferred within a year, nothing more.

Are we talking about transferred to your personal question through your own FFL? Or if I went to Gun Shop A and did a PPT with someone and then picked it up 10 days later. I guess that's what's confusing me about when we're talking about "transferred to your personal collection".. I


...
I suspect there is an issue with respect to how the license reads. I am not sure if you can transfer firearms to yourself from the business without the waiting period or not. I am sure that your name is on the paperwork regarding your LLC. I do know that there are issues with respect to corporations, but I don't know all the details.

I don't care about the waiting period actually. I haven't transferred anything to myself from inventory yet, but I have done a PPT with someone else through myself as the FFL, but I treated myself as a customer. Collected all the normal paperwork, proof of residency, etc.. and then left it in the safe for 10 days. At the end dated the DROS just like I would any other customer and signed the 4473s.

I'm not sure if what I've done is the same as the topic of discussion and I think that's why I'm confused.

kemasa
02-12-2011, 1:58 PM
As Wes quoted:


(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,


It does not seem that acquiring a firearm through means others than the FFL's business applies.

What you did was different since the firearm was not transferred from your business to your own personal collection.

tenpercentfirearms
02-12-2011, 9:36 PM
I'm all confused now.

So how much of this matters how your FFL is written up. E.g., my FFL is written up in my company name (UG Imports, LLC)? I'm the owner, but my name is nowhere to be seen on the FFL itself. Does this mean I cannot do purchase firearms for myself as a PPT because I'm also a dealer even though the license is my company?

Are all the responses above related to if the FFL is also your own name as many many people do and then do a DBA to run the business?

This section does not apply to you. Only sole proprietorships and partnerships (maybe one more I am leaving out) can sign guns out in the A&D as "For owner's personal collection" without doing a 4473. Corporations cannot.

Now I just went over it with the DOJ as far as waiting periods go. Even though your name is not on the FFL, you are a responsible person. So if you have a COE/CFD with your name on it, the CA DOJ considers you a FFL with CFD for exempting the waiting period.

So for long guns, you do not have to run a DROS! At least I think this is how I recall it. However, you do still need to do a 4473.

Handguns you still have to run a DROS, but you would still be 10 day wait exempt and of course you still have to do a 4473.

Corporations, you are not skipping the 4473 so you can PPT to your heart's desire.

Again, think when talking to the ATF about this, they might not be realizing that a PPT is not a face to face transaction so they shouldn't be treated the same.