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View Full Version : [VIDEO] ~ "Livermore PD Greets Open Carrier, No e-check"


Danz la Nuit
02-07-2011, 5:32 PM
LE-wNklEtf0

*Not my video, was just posted on YT

Turo
02-07-2011, 5:36 PM
Nice!

I'd like to see more of these in the near future.

safewaysecurity
02-07-2011, 5:40 PM
And that's how it should be. Except we should be able to carry loaded.

woodey
02-07-2011, 5:42 PM
Thats what I'm talking about, the more LOE see OC the less they are going to over react. You can only freak out & call in every person on duty so many time to find out your dealing with a legal act.

Nor-Cal
02-07-2011, 7:41 PM
Only if these experiences were more common.

stix213
02-07-2011, 7:46 PM
If this becomes a more common result, I may have to change my opinion about UOC (which is currently that it is counter productive)

Dreaded Claymore
02-07-2011, 7:49 PM
:eek: Whoa. I didn't think I'd ever see this from the Livermore police. Maybe I'll thank them next time I have occasion to talk to an officer in town.

CitaDeL
02-07-2011, 8:06 PM
While I was watching the video, I was thinking to myself... "Wait for it,... wait..." And the camera pans down to the sidearm. "Yup there's the money shot." Good work on the cameraman's part.

While it has taken dogged repetition and numerous encounters, it appears that this Livermore police officer found something more important to do besides assert his statutory authority over an armed citizen.

It's not the sort of progress that many here can appreciate or are willing to recognize, but its certainly better than previous action from Livermore. I believe this shows that over time, repeated exposure can effect some change.

Zak
02-07-2011, 8:13 PM
And that's how it should be. Except we should be able to carry loaded.

x2, I would UOC if every encounter was like this one.

taperxz
02-07-2011, 8:16 PM
My opinion probably doesnt count for much here, and i am kinda and anti open carry person. It seems to me that after seeing that the Livermore PD has come the conclusion that if they stop the e checks the 1A UOC ers will simply go away because there will no longer be a need to UOC for the sole purpose of making a video to show everyone what happens to them.

I am willing to bet this is a cat and mouse game with Livermore PD using reverse psychology. JMO

Zak
02-07-2011, 8:22 PM
My opinion probably doesnt count for much here, and i am kinda and anti open carry person. It seems to me that after seeing that the Livermore PD has come the conclusion that if they stop the e checks the 1A UOC ers will simply go away because there will no longer be a need to UOC for the sole purpose of making a video to show everyone what happens to them.

I am willing to bet this is a cat and mouse game with Livermore PD using reverse psychology. JMO

People UOC for self-defense, not always to make a statement.

woodey
02-07-2011, 8:24 PM
My opinion probably doesnt count for much here, and i am kinda and anti open carry person. It seems to me that after seeing that the Livermore PD has come the conclusion that if they stop the e checks the 1A UOC ers will simply go away because there will no longer be a need to UOC for the sole purpose of making a video to show everyone what happens to them.

I am willing to bet this is a cat and mouse game with Livermore PD using reverse psychology. JMO

What ever the reason, It is good the see. Kind of like your wife going to have sex with you because she mad at you. Who cares why, I more about results then reasons.;)

taperxz
02-07-2011, 8:31 PM
People UOC for self-defense, not always to make a statement.
That why i purposely called them 1A UOC ers. They are doing it so they can get e checked and make a vid out of it hoping the LEO screws up so they can file a lawsuit against them.

I LOC, where i live half the time and legally, I have it because there is no LE where i am and truly use it for self defense. I have no problem with those that carry to protect themselves!! I just dont like the video stuff along with it.

Propaganda!!

I open carry
02-07-2011, 8:34 PM
I OC daily, and have been for almost 3 years. The only 'non-event' E check I have ever had, was a non-issue, and only done because of a call.

E-checks are very far and few between.

SickofSoCal
02-07-2011, 8:42 PM
Let's say OC stays legal in CA for the time being......what about if filming the police becomes a criminal offense like it has in other states, WHAT THEN???

Danz la Nuit
02-07-2011, 8:54 PM
Let's say OC stays legal in CA for the time being......what about if filming the police becomes a criminal offense like it has in other states, WHAT THEN???

aiEB4pT3R58

sandman21
02-07-2011, 9:00 PM
That why i purposely called them 1A UOC ers. They are doing it so they can get e checked and make a vid out of it hoping the LEO screws up so they can file a lawsuit against them.
Unconstitutional search - check

unlawful use of force - check

unlawful detention - check

How many lawsuits do you see? I count one and it was not videoed. Of all the things you can say about UOCer's looking for a lawsuit is not one of them.

N6ATF
02-07-2011, 9:01 PM
They are doing it so they can get e checked and make a vid out of it hoping the LEO screws up so they can file a lawsuit against them.

...

I just dont like the video stuff along with it.

Propaganda!!

1) There has been years of civil rights violations being captured on tape with not a single resulting lawsuit.

2) Propaganda for whom, and what purpose?

taperxz
02-07-2011, 9:10 PM
1) There has been years of civil rights violations being captured on tape with not a single resulting lawsuit.

2) Propaganda for whom, and what purpose?

Thats kinda what i am getting at, why do i always see the UOC movement always taking videos of this. The OP started filming before LE could even do an e check. Everyone is free to do what they want but to me its like baiting while hunting. Your prize is that you get to put yourself on you tube.

I am not talking about people wanting to record LE actions like the other thread today where a ranger was harassing guys at a shooting range. He started his vid when he saw something not right. UOC ers seem to be doing this like i said as bait to see what LE will do. Its just one persons opinion.

N6ATF
02-07-2011, 9:15 PM
Considering many LE go on fishing expeditions, it is completely fair to prepare for the eventuality. If said LE are fishing for bait, it is unfair to blame their eventual victims for attempting to protect themselves with recordings. When you get drawn down on, it is too late to pull out your recorder and activate it. Well, unless you want to be shot and give the Tuasonites "two weeks off!"

taperxz
02-07-2011, 9:19 PM
Considering many LE go on fishing expeditions, it is completely fair to prepare for the eventuality. If said LE are fishing for bait, it is unfair to blame their eventual victims for attempting to protect themselves with recordings. When you get drawn down on, it is too late to pull out your recorder and activate it. Well, unless you want to be shot and give the Tuasonites "two weeks off!"

I agree with you there. Like i said i am not an UOC fan and still view the episodes as a person only UOC ing for the sake of baiting an LE encounter and not really carrying for self defense. Lets just say it appears to be the case in a lot of these videos.

Funtimes
02-07-2011, 9:20 PM
Thats kinda what i am getting at, why do i always see the UOC movement always taking videos of this. The OP started filming before LE could even do an e check. Everyone is free to do what they want but to me its like baiting while hunting. Your prize is that you get to put yourself on you tube.

I am not talking about people wanting to record LE actions like the other thread today where a ranger was harassing guys at a shooting range. He started his vid when he saw something not right. UOC ers seem to be doing this like i said as bait to see what LE will do. Its just one persons opinion.

Wait officer, I just want to get this camera out of my pocket... right next to my (un)loaded gun!

Sounds like a FAIL plan.

N6ATF
02-07-2011, 9:26 PM
I agree with you there. Like i said i am not an UOC fan and still view the episodes as a person only UOC ing for the sake of baiting an LE encounter and not really carrying for self defense. Lets just say it appears to be the case in a lot of these videos.

They're unloaded carrying in the only places where it's prudent. There would be no point in UOCing in a LOC allowed area, nor invading a gang-run neighborhood (armed or not) while having no legitimate business there.

taperxz
02-07-2011, 9:32 PM
They're unloaded carrying in the only places where it's prudent. There would be no point in UOCing in a LOC allowed area, nor invading a gang-run neighborhood (armed or not) while having no legitimate business there.

Again thats kind of my point, they would have to pick a "safer" place to do it away from a GFSZ, so thats where MY closed mindedness doesn't see the purpose in it other than to have an LE encounter.

Forget me and the LOC thing. When i am out there working and get back to the house i look forward to getting that thing off my hip.

taperxz
02-07-2011, 9:34 PM
Plus i am a huge proponent of CCW's also to be fair about this.

N6ATF
02-07-2011, 9:37 PM
Well it is not law-abiding citizens' fault that LE choose to run roughshod over their rights when they are doing completely legal things in non-suicidal manners. If they were going in GFSZs by accident, I can only imagine hellfire would rain down upon them like Theseus was made to suffer.

Gryff
02-07-2011, 9:38 PM
aiEB4pT3R58

Video editing software is your friend. The first six minutes of that is like watching paint dry.

five.five-six
02-07-2011, 9:41 PM
People UOC for self-defense, not always to make a statement.

people that UOC with a helmet cam on are making a statement

N6ATF
02-07-2011, 9:43 PM
Or they just like riding two-wheeled vehicles.

GrizzlyGuy
02-08-2011, 7:24 AM
Is it possible that the officer didn't notice the gun? It seems unlikely, but the open carry folks sometimes report that non-LEOs don't notice them.

QQQ
02-08-2011, 8:04 AM
I'm guessing the officer didn't notice the camera man's sidearm.

Let's say OC stays legal in CA for the time being......what about if filming the police becomes a criminal offense like it has in other states, WHAT THEN???

That's my main fear, too. Not as likely to happen here as in other states due to California's size and civil rights lobbyists.

oni.dori
02-08-2011, 1:44 PM
Video editing software is your friend. The first six minutes of that is like watching paint dry.

Is it just me, or is what this officer saying about the "video taping laws" a bunch of horse pucky? I am aware that it is illegal to publicly display (say, such as on a news broadcast) a juveniles likeness, so long as you can recognize and identify the juvenile being recorded, without the consent of a parent or legal guardian. However, I was always told that it is ok to video tape them otherwise, so long as those criteria didn't come in to play.

Decoligny
02-08-2011, 3:24 PM
That why i purposely called them 1A UOC ers. They are doing it so they can get e checked and make a vid out of it hoping the LEO screws up so they can file a lawsuit against them.

I LOC, where i live half the time and legally, I have it because there is no LE where i am and truly use it for self defense. I have no problem with those that carry to protect themselves!! I just dont like the video stuff along with it.

Propaganda!!

Which is why there are hundreds and thousands of lawsuits against the police by UOCers. :rolleyes:

They have screwed up plenty of times, but I know of only a select few lawsuits, and those didn't get the UOCer any lottery jackpot awards.

Those who are videotaping are doing so to protect themselves if they get arrested for anything. They are also doing it as a statement to the officers, "you are being watched, don't do stupid crap". Without the video stuff along with it there would assuredly be many more violations on the part of those officers who disapprove of an armed citizenry.

Volksgrenadier
02-08-2011, 4:31 PM
Which is why there are hundreds and thousands of lawsuits against the police by UOCers. :rolleyes:

They have screwed up plenty of times, but I know of only a select few lawsuits, and those didn't get the UOCer any lottery jackpot awards.

Those who are videotaping are doing so to protect themselves if they get arrested for anything. They are also doing it as a statement to the officers, "you are being watched, don't do stupid crap". Without the video stuff along with it there would assuredly be many more violations on the part of those officers who disapprove of an armed citizenry.

Truth.

taperxz
02-08-2011, 6:37 PM
Which is why there are hundreds and thousands of lawsuits against the police by UOCers. :rolleyes:

They have screwed up plenty of times, but I know of only a select few lawsuits, and those didn't get the UOCer any lottery jackpot awards.

Those who are videotaping are doing so to protect themselves if they get arrested for anything. They are also doing it as a statement to the officers, "you are being watched, don't do stupid crap". Without the video stuff along with it there would assuredly be many more violations on the part of those officers who disapprove of an armed citizenry.

Ya well its just my opinion but as someone who gets to LOC, i would feel like a moron if i walked around with and unloaded pistol on display.

It pretty much parallels the gay rights movement back in the 70's and 80's (and i personally have no problem with equality for all) but it didn't do their image much good marching around in azzless chaps waiving a flag and holding and kissing each other in public while marching down the street and meeting up at the local coffee shop. They ended up getting their victory in the courts and through litigation. They are now one court decision away from marriage.

I wish we could say that about gun rights right now!!

m1aowner
02-08-2011, 7:39 PM
Of course the cops were right there, there's a 24hour doughnut shop just down the street with killer crumb doughnuts. ;) Oh and Simply fondue is right there too, yum.

Hopalong
02-08-2011, 7:45 PM
Is it possible that the officer didn't notice the gun? It seems unlikely, but the open carry folks sometimes report that non-LEOs don't notice them.

This is the first thing that came to my mind.

Didn't see it, and there was no MWG call.

jpigeon
02-08-2011, 8:07 PM
Right on!!! The XD shows the OP has good taste...

donny douchebag
02-08-2011, 8:10 PM
I find it astounding anyone actually believes OCers carry for self defense...

cadurand
02-08-2011, 8:27 PM
This cop is probably just counting down the days until UOC is made illegal.

No need to start any trouble until then.

jamesob
02-08-2011, 8:40 PM
look at me everyone i am carrying a unloaded weapon, yay.:rolleyes:

N6ATF
02-08-2011, 8:42 PM
I find it astounding anyone actually believes OCers carry for self defense...

I find it astounding anyone actually believes CCers carry for self-defense... I mean, if the wolves think you're a sheep, you're asking to be victimized. The best self-defense is making criminals stop being criminals without penetrating them with lead at high velocities. If everyone OCed, the self-preservation instinct would override all but the suicidal criminal tendencies. :rolleyes:

This cop is probably just counting down the days until UOC is made illegal.

No need to start any trouble until then.

HA!

CitaDeL
02-08-2011, 8:46 PM
I find it astounding anyone actually believes OCers carry for self defense...

look at me everyone i am carrying a unloaded weapon, yay.:rolleyes:

Is this the extent of your ability to beat up on the practice, or were you saving your strong points for later on?;)

jamesob
02-08-2011, 8:57 PM
Is this the extent of your ability to beat up on the practice, or were you saving your strong points for later on?;)

i have more.

taperxz
02-08-2011, 9:14 PM
I find it astounding anyone actually believes CCers carry for self-defense... I mean, if the wolves think you're a sheep, you're asking to be victimized. The best self-defense is making criminals stop being criminals without penetrating them with lead at high velocities. If everyone OCed, the self-preservation instinct would override all but the suicidal criminal tendencies. :rolleyes:



HA!


Buwahahaha The criminals will be afraid of an unloaded gun??? Where as if everyone CCW ed the criminals would be playing russian roulette. If i were a criminal i would take my chances on a UOC victim easily!!

taperxz
02-08-2011, 9:16 PM
N6 read post 35 and see how that looks

CitaDeL
02-08-2011, 9:28 PM
Buwahahaha The criminals will be afraid of an unloaded gun??? Where as if everyone CCW ed the criminals would be playing russian roulette. If i were a criminal i would take my chances on a UOC victim easily!!

You think Russian Roulette is where a criminal is confronted by a discretely armed mark, and not a gun that may or may not be loaded? Heh...

Tell you what... Next time I open carry, I'll let you know where I will be and you can guess whether or not my gun is loaded. If its not, you can beat me over the head with it and it will make national news. But on the off chance that it is loaded, you might want to be sure to wear a vest. (Here's a clue- LOC is still legal in much of the state...you may want to research those areas before trying to bonk someone on the head and take their presumably unloaded gun.)

PandaLuv
02-08-2011, 9:33 PM
Whoah!!!
2.99 per gallon? Nice

Jk
Imagine if you were a black guy or Hispanic.

jamesob
02-08-2011, 9:35 PM
You think Russian Roulette is where a criminal is confronted by a discretely armed mark, and not a gun that may or may not be loaded? Heh...

Tell you what... Next time I open carry, I'll let you know where I will be and you can guess whether or not my gun is loaded. If its not, you can beat me over the head with it and it will make national news. But on the off chance that it is loaded, you might want to be sure to wear a vest. (Here's a clue- LOC is still legal in much of the state...you may want to research those areas before trying to bonk someone on the head and take their presumably unloaded gun.)

so, you are saying that some people are carrying loc or you sometimes carry loc? then i would say the police are well within their right to stop and check to see if your weapon is loaded or not. and as for loc, where in any california city can you loc? i'm very curious.

xxsleepyxx
02-08-2011, 9:39 PM
Whoah!!!
2.99 per gallon? Nice

Jk
Imagine if you were a black guy or Hispanic.

Seriously, if you were in LA County you'd have your brains all over the pavement.

N6ATF
02-08-2011, 9:42 PM
Buwahahaha The criminals will be afraid of an unloaded gun??? Where as if everyone CCW ed the criminals would be playing russian roulette. If i were a criminal i would take my chances on a UOC victim easily!!

One should not ascribe psychic powers and x-ray vision to criminals...

If you were a criminal, you would be suicidal, and probably dead, because guess what, you just tried to victimize a cop.

Sure, CCW, if you really, REALLY want to be able to shoot a criminal some day and suffer the legal consequences, all because you tricked them into thinking you were easy prey.

PandaLuv
02-08-2011, 9:43 PM
With all seriousness though, open and carry is unnecessary and awkward.
I am not a gun owner yet and I am trying to be a cop, but I do support gun ownership and ccw.
It's just UOC makes people unconfortable, you attract more attention from criminals, cops and innocent civilians.

PandaLuv
02-08-2011, 9:45 PM
Seriously, if you were in LA County you'd have your brains all over the pavement.

Lol I bet dude. That's why I think it's stupid.

By the way, OP try doing the same in Oakland, Richmond or even Antioch. Make sure to have your camera too

CitaDeL
02-08-2011, 9:46 PM
so, you are saying that some people are carrying loc or you sometimes carry loc? then i would say the police are well within their right to stop and check to see if your weapon is loaded or not. and as for loc, where in any california city can you loc? i'm very curious.

I open carry loaded where it is legal. Where it is legal, 12031(e) is inapplicable and LE is no more justified in inspecting for loaded condition than they are to asking for ID absent a crime. Incorporation precludes many cities, but there are towns that are not incorporated where discharge is not regulated by local ordinance.

taperxz
02-08-2011, 9:48 PM
One should not ascribe psychic powers and x-ray vision to criminals...

If you were a criminal, you would be suicidal, and probably dead, because guess what, you just tried to victimize a cop.

Sure, CCW, if you really, REALLY want to be able to shoot a criminal some day and suffer the legal consequences, all because you tricked them into thinking you were easy prey.

COPS carry loaded! huge difference, I will be happy to deal with the legal consequences knowing that i and my family are still alive!! CCW is not there to trick anyone. You open carry guys.... nothing personal but in the end an unloaded gun is just that an unloaded gun! Heck didnt a guy UOC ing last year get his gun stolen from him??

taperxz
02-08-2011, 9:51 PM
You think Russian Roulette is where a criminal is confronted by a discretely armed mark, and not a gun that may or may not be loaded? Heh...

Tell you what... Next time I open carry, I'll let you know where I will be and you can guess whether or not my gun is loaded. If its not, you can beat me over the head with it and it will make national news. But on the off chance that it is loaded, you might want to be sure to wear a vest. (Here's a clue- LOC is still legal in much of the state...you may want to research those areas before trying to bonk someone on the head and take their presumably unloaded gun.)

I too open LOADED carry all the time! I have no problem with that, UNLOADED? is moronic. Do the UOC ers really believe that in this state the more they UOC the better chance they have of LOC?? That will just fix everything for the soccer moms won't it.:rolleyes:

jamesob
02-08-2011, 9:58 PM
I open carry loaded where it is legal. Where it is legal, 12031(e) is inapplicable and LE is no more justified in inspecting for loaded condition than they are to asking for ID absent a crime. Incorporation precludes many cities, but there are towns that are not incorporated where discharge is not regulated by local ordinance.

(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place
where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
i'm pretty sure any town in california would be a prohibited area in the eye of the court. if there are residence in the area or businesses, i'm sure you would be screwed.

AaronHorrocks
02-08-2011, 9:59 PM
I find it astounding anyone actually believes OCers carry for self defense...

Living in Califorinia, if you are in dire need for self defense, your options are usually to unloaded open carry legally, or conceal carry illegally.

taperxz
02-08-2011, 10:03 PM
Living in Califorinia, if you are in dire need for self defense, your options are usually to unloaded open carry legally, or conceal carry illegally.


WRONG!!

taperxz
02-08-2011, 10:06 PM
LOC in non prohibited areas, CCW w permit ( most counties are shall issue in this state), locked unloaded conceal carry is also legal. UOC is only good if you have a video camera.

CitaDeL
02-08-2011, 10:06 PM
COPS carry loaded! huge difference, I will be happy to deal with the legal consequences knowing that i and my family are still alive!! CCW is not there to trick anyone. You open carry guys.... nothing personal but in the end an unloaded gun is just that an unloaded gun! Heck didnt a guy UOC ing last year get his gun stolen from him??

Uhm. No. You might be thinking about this story from Wisconsin (June 2010), where they largely carry loaded, but have no provision for concealed weapons.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

I too open LOADED carry all the time! I have no problem with that, UNLOADED? is moronic. Do the UOC ers really believe that in this state the more they UOC the better chance they have of LOC?? That will just fix everything for the soccer moms won't it.:rolleyes:

Yes,.. unloaded is ridiculous. You dont seem to account for the fact that where UOC is being practiced, 12031 makes possession of loaded weapons a misdemeanor crime. Or that those who practice UOC are adehering to the law. This isnt their preference... Most of them would prefer to apply for a CCW and carry concealed. But, between the dirty Sheriffs and the existing laws they have three choices; disarm, LUCC, or UOC.

Under what context and circumstances do you loaded open carry?

taperxz
02-08-2011, 10:11 PM
Like i mentioned before after a hard days work where i legally LOC i look forward to getting rid of the firearm on my side. If i had no way to get a ccw, i would LUCC before i would ever UOC. They make great lockable concealable cases for just that.

taperxz
02-08-2011, 10:13 PM
I may be mistaken but i thought i heard here that a guy in SoCal had his UOC firearm stolen from him.

CitaDeL
02-08-2011, 10:13 PM
(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
i'm pretty sure any town in california would be a prohibited area in the eye of the court. if there are residence in the area or businesses, i'm sure you would be screwed.

Not if there isnt a local law (county ordinance etc.) There is a distinction made in an AG opinion from some years back- I will have to dig it up as I dont have the citation at hand.

taperxz
02-08-2011, 10:16 PM
Citadel has it right!! There are more places to LOC than you would ever think in this state.

CitaDeL
02-08-2011, 10:21 PM
Like i mentioned before after a hard days work where i legally LOC i look forward to getting rid of the firearm on my side. If i had no way to get a ccw, i would LUCC before i would ever UOC. They make great lockable concealable cases for just that.

Not to be an ***- but what does loaded open carrying for the purposes of vocation such as an armed security guard, armored vehicle guard or another PC830 exemption have to do with a discussion of armed citizens?

There is nothing in common between the two besides the hardware. And this is where part of your misunderstanding lies.

AaronHorrocks
02-08-2011, 10:27 PM
WRONG!!

I'm not wrong, because I used the qualifier "usually". And I'm talking FROM EXPERIENCE!!

LOC in non prohibited areas, CCW w permit ( most counties are shall issue in this state), locked unloaded conceal carry is also legal. UOC is only good if you have a video camera.

non prohibited areas? Sure, If you're already far away from most of the threats.
CCW permit? Not in my county!

So again, what are my options, and the options of most other californians? Yes, I said MOST, because by population density more people live in non-issuing counties than live in issuing counties...
It's to UOC legally or CC illegally.

Callipygian
02-08-2011, 11:04 PM
look at me everyone i am carrying a unloaded weapon, yay.:rolleyes:

Just because YOU can't insert a mag in under 1 second doesnt mean we can't...

I think it's great that the cops are getting used to it. And please lets be honest here, the camera is for the UOC'er's protection. We all know why they need it.

Callipygian
02-08-2011, 11:06 PM
I may be mistaken but i thought i heard here that a guy in SoCal had his UOC firearm stolen from him.



There are dozens of Calgunners who have reported guns being stolen from their house, by your impuned logic they shouldnt posess firearms either...

77bawls
02-08-2011, 11:15 PM
aiEB4pT3R58

So what happened? I hate these videos that just cut off.

N6ATF
02-08-2011, 11:25 PM
COPS carry loaded! huge difference

You are still ascribing psychic powers or x-ray vision to criminals. Stop that.

I may be mistaken but i thought i heard here that a guy in SoCal had his UOC firearm stolen from him.

The blank line in my sig is still waiting to be filled.

jamesob
02-09-2011, 6:50 AM
Just because YOU can't insert a mag in under 1 second doesnt mean we can't...

I think it's great that the cops are getting used to it. And please lets be honest here, the camera is for the UOC'er's protection. We all know why they need it.

so you can receive a threat, draw your weapon and load it under a second? you sir should be in the guiness book of world records. there is no way you can do that if someone walks up behind you and grabs your weapon or they already have a weapon drawn on you, so lets be honest. and for your information i would bet that i can insert a mag in the one second range, after all i have had plenty of tactical range time when i was a l.e.o

Callipygian
02-09-2011, 7:50 AM
so you can receive a threat, draw your weapon and load it under a second? you sir should be in the guiness book of world records. there is no way you can do that if someone walks up behind you and grabs your weapon or they already have a weapon drawn on you, so lets be honest. and for your information i would bet that i can insert a mag in the one second range, after all i have had plenty of tactical range time when i was a l.e.o

yes, AND i can do it from concealment too. You might want to look into some professional training bro...(LEO training is mediocre at best, and the level of skill required to "qualify" is a joke...

I open carry
02-09-2011, 7:57 AM
Lol I bet dude. That's why I think it's stupid.

By the way, OP try doing the same in Oakland, Richmond or even Antioch. Make sure to have your camera too

I do OC in all three of these cities, as does the Oc'er in the clip. I have for almost 3 years.

Daily, in Antioch.

I open carry
02-09-2011, 8:04 AM
Heck didnt a guy UOC ing last year get his gun stolen from him??


Wrong, that happened in a loaded carry state. The guy was being stalked for 2 or 3 weeks before the punk had the opportunity to be able to sneak up behind the old man and point his gun at the guys head.

If the OC'er had been more vigilant, it never would have happened.

One case, in what 42-45 or so states that allow open carry is not an issue.

taperxz
02-09-2011, 8:29 AM
Wrong, that happened in a loaded carry state. The guy was being stalked for 2 or 3 weeks before the punk had the opportunity to be able to sneak up behind the old man and point his gun at the guys head.

If the OC'er had been more vigilant, it never would have happened.

One case, in what 42-45 or so states that allow open carry is not an issue.

Thats right and thats what and UOC gun would get you also, in a CCW situation this perhaps would have had a different outcome all together.

How vigilant can you be with and exposed unloaded firearm? In a confrontation, lets say at your local starbucks, how hard would it be for me to walk up, hit you, take your wallet, and your gun while you are wondering what happened and in shock. You have no time to have loaded your gun and your gun is now in the possession of a criminal.

How about another one, You are UOC, a criminal who doesnt follow the law sees your gun, knows you are unloaded cause he saw you get e checked by a cop and waits for you to be out of the area of the police. Walks up to you, points a gun at you and says give me your gun. What are you going to do try to load it?

A CCW prevents all of this, heck a LUCC prevents all of this. For those that want to carry in prohibited areas, LUCC is much better than UOC. It prevents police response, no e checks without probable cause and still gives you the ability to act if needed. Even cops can have problems with a gun on their side while taking down a suspect. Cops have been shot with their own guns!!

I open carry
02-09-2011, 8:41 AM
all old arguments, have been discussed here many many times.

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

taperxz
02-09-2011, 8:47 AM
Maybe so but your arguements do nothing but create public perception that UOC is bad! Politically you dont help those that want to obtain their CCW.

I LOC all the time and hate having that thing on my side, however practical it is when i am working. (NOT LE) for protection CCW is the most practical but your meet and greets at starbucks do nothing for our 2A cause. You are basicall saying you are happy with UOC as a means of carry. That is an infringment on my ability to carry loaded in todays prohibited areas.

taperxz
02-09-2011, 8:48 AM
This is how LE reacts to UOC

San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office
“UNLOADED OPEN CARRY”
ISSUE
Several questions and concerns have risen due to recent incidents where citizens have called the police to report people openly
carrying revolvers or semi-automatic hand guns on their persons. This potentially dangerous practice is ostensibly an “exercise
of constitutional rights” and an apparent effort to “test” those rights with authorities. Our intent here is to provide you with an
understanding of the laws that pertain to these situations.
BACKGROUND
Penal Code Section 12025 makes it unlawful to carry a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following: Carries
concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. Firearms
carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
Penal Code Section 12031 makes it unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on his or her person while in any public place or on any
public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated
territory. A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or
shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm,
including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzleloader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel
or cylinder.
In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm
pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.
Penal Code Section 626.9 makes it unlawful to possess a firearm, loaded or unloaded, concealed or not concealed, within
1,000 feet of any public or private school, subject to exceptions when the firearm is being transported. The suspect must know,
or reasonably should have known that they are within 1,000 feet of the school.
While individuals have the right to carry unloaded firearms that are in plain view and not concealed, it is within a law
enforcement officer’s right to inspect any weapon that is carried openly in public.
CAUTION
Open carry advocates create a potentially very dangerous situation. When police are called to a “man with a gun” call they
typically are responding to a situation about which they have few details other than that one or more people are present at a
location and are armed. Officers may have no idea that these people are simply “exercising their rights.” Consequently, the law
enforcement response is one of “hypervigilant urgency” in order to protect the public from an armed threat. Should the gun
carrying person fail to comply with a law enforcement instruction or move in a way that could be construed as threatening, the
police are forced to respond in kind for their own protection. It’s well and good in hindsight to say the gun carrier was simply
“exercising their rights” but the result could be deadly. Simply put, it is not recommended to openly carry firearms.
San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office
Lt. Ray Lunny, Public Information Officer
650-363-4049
Release Date: January 14, 2010

http://www.co.sanmateo.ca.us/Attachments/sheriffs/pdfs/Press%20Releases/20100114_opencarry.pdf

BoxesOfLiberty
02-09-2011, 9:48 AM
so you can receive a threat, draw your weapon and load it under a second? you sir should be in the guiness book of world records. there is no way you can do that if someone walks up behind you and grabs your weapon or they already have a weapon drawn on you, so lets be honest. and for your information i would bet that i can insert a mag in the one second range, after all i have had plenty of tactical range time when i was a l.e.o

In the situation described, it matters very little whether the weapon is loaded or not ...

Dark Paladin
02-09-2011, 9:56 AM
LOC in non prohibited areas, CCW w permit ( most counties are shall issue in this state)

Which doesn't do those of us who live in may/no-issue counties any squat of good, because CCW issuance is by county of residence, and subject to revocation if/when you move to different counties.

You are basicall saying you are happy with UOC as a means of carry.

I'm not happy with UOC as a means of carry. But it is one of the options since CCW is not. You say this assuming that all of us can apply and get CCWs when this is very obviously NOT the case.

taperxz
02-09-2011, 9:56 AM
In the situation described, it matters very little whether the weapon is loaded or not ...

No, However, If you have been knocked down while ccw ing you have the element of surprise on your side. Being knocked down allows you more time to react because the person knocking you down is looking for an outcome of what they did to you. Much easier to draw on someone from a lower defensive position. If you are UOC, you are screwed! Perp is going to keep all eyes on the gun and react if you try to load it. If it is loaded he sees your actions.

Why do you think LEO's carry and ankle pistol while on duty?

taperxz
02-09-2011, 9:59 AM
Which doesn't do those of us who live in may/no-issue counties any squat of good, because CCW issuance is by county of residence, and subject to revocation if/when you move to different counties.



I'm not happy with UOC as a means of carry. But it is one of the options since CCW is not. You say this assuming that all of us can apply and get CCWs when this is very obviously NOT the case.

Your not helping you case by UOC though. Thats why i would LUCC over UOC as a means to carry.

BoxesOfLiberty
02-09-2011, 10:04 AM
How vigilant can you be with and exposed unloaded firearm? In a confrontation, lets say at your local starbucks, how hard would it be for me to walk up, hit you, take your wallet, and your gun while you are wondering what happened and in shock. You have no time to have loaded your gun and your gun is now in the possession of a criminal.

How about another one, You are UOC, a criminal who doesnt follow the law sees your gun, knows you are unloaded cause he saw you get e checked by a cop and waits for you to be out of the area of the police. Walks up to you, points a gun at you and says give me your gun. What are you going to do try to load it?

How vigilant can you be with an exposed loaded firearm? Place yourself in the same situation. What keeps you safe? Any constructive advice from an experienced arms-carrier on how to remain vigilant and safe while carrying an exposed firearm (whether it is loaded or not) would be a great service to the CGN community.

What do you think would be most helpful? Maybe some high-speed dry firing every night after work. Perhaps more time practicing variations on the low-drag quick draw, or practicing rapid sight-picture acquisition in the mirror?

I open carry
02-09-2011, 10:06 AM
RE; the San Mateo link,

READ the date, that was last yr. and even at that time, we had no problems with most of the officers in San Mateo.

Have to agree with Dennis on your last little make believe story too. Even a LEO with 20 in the mag and one in the pipe would face the same, when faced with loaded gun.

taperxz
02-09-2011, 10:12 AM
[QUOTE=BoxesOfLiberty;5782841]How vigilant can you be with an exposed loaded firearm? Place yourself in the same situation. What keeps you safe? Any constructive advice from an experienced arms-carrier on how to remain vigilant and safe while carrying an exposed firearm (whether it is loaded or not) would be a great service to the CGN community.

What do you think would be most helpful? Maybe some high-speed dry firing every night after work. Perhaps more time practicing variations on the low-drag quick draw, or practicing rapid sight-picture acquisition in the mirror?[/QUOTE

Your talking apples and oranges here because the context in what i wrote referred to an individual who had his weapon taken from him. What i was saying is that no matter how vigilant (minus Paranoid) you are, if someone knows you are UOC, trying to take your weapon is not that hard to do. Here is the kicker, if they do try to steal your unloaded weapon do you have a right to shoot them if you can get that weapon loaded?

shocknm
02-09-2011, 10:18 AM
Back to the thread topic... I didn't catch who was filming. Was it Walter? Sounds like his voice.
LPD most likely has a pic of him by now, and everyone on the force has seen it... or encountered him.
I wouldn't eCheck Walter either if I saw him walking toward me, camera rolling.
Now, let's try it again. Same scene, but not Walter and no camera...

taperxz
02-09-2011, 10:34 AM
RE; the San Mateo link,

READ the date, that was last yr. and even at that time, we had no problems with most of the officers in San Mateo.

Have to agree with Dennis on your last little make believe story too. Even a LEO with 20 in the mag and one in the pipe would face the same, when faced with loaded gun.

Instead of knocking every scenario, tell me when UOC would be helpful. Other than at the starbucks and pizza meet ups for publicity.

BoxesOfLiberty
02-09-2011, 11:22 AM
Instead of knocking every scenario, tell me when UOC would be helpful. Other than at the starbucks and pizza meet ups for publicity.

I personally don't UOC, however it seems to me it would be useful in all of the same scenarios that LUCC would be useful, only a whole lot faster.

taperxz
02-09-2011, 11:39 AM
I personally don't UOC, however it seems to me it would be useful in all of the same scenarios that LUCC would be useful, only a whole lot faster.

Perhaps, but look at the particulars.

Both are only going to aid you in an advanced perceived threat any way.
EX. Your in a grocery store someone goes nuts, UOC is the first to die, in the mean time LUCC takes off to a place to LOAD and protect him/herself.

UOC: cop magnet, attracts attention to ones self, most people don't understand why you do it, BAD 2A PUBLICITY because those that don't carry or own won't understand you. General public has great influence over politicians, cops, (dept.policies) judges, teachers, media ect.

LUCC: no cops, know one knows, no "here i am look at me mom" publicity, you still have a firearm for protection and legally so under state law. This also keeps the rhetoric down from the antis who vote in the legislature and whether we like it or not influences judges.

CCW Just like LUCC only loaded with permit.

BoxesOfLiberty
02-09-2011, 11:45 AM
Back to the thread topic... I didn't catch who was filming. Was it Walter? Sounds like his voice.

Sorry ... I didn't mean to contribute to the distraction, but I couldn't help myself.

Yes. I think that is Walter. I'm not sure about the voice but the pistol looks like an XD compact.

LPD most likely has a pic of him by now, and everyone on the force has seen it... or encountered him.
I wouldn't eCheck Walter either if I saw him walking toward me, camera rolling.
Now, let's try it again. Same scene, but not Walter and no camera...

Interestingly this sort of proves the point. If repetitive experience with one open carrier eventually normalizes police expectations and reactions, then it is reasonable to believe that repetitive experience with many open carriers would not eventually normalize both police and public expectations and reactions.

The real question is whether UOC can normalize those expectations/reactions faster than the State legislature can knee-jerk a ban. Sadly, the answer is almost certainly no.

jamesob
02-09-2011, 12:12 PM
yes, AND i can do it from concealment too. You might want to look into some professional training bro...(LEO training is mediocre at best, and the level of skill required to "qualify" is a joke...

post a video, i would like to see it. and by the way you don't know what training i have had.

jamesob
02-09-2011, 12:19 PM
In the situation described, it matters very little whether the weapon is loaded or not ...

exactly my point. what good is uoc if a situation like that happens? it's no good, you get killed, robbed or both.

GP3
02-09-2011, 12:24 PM
I'm late to the party, but do people actually do this: strap on an unloaded gun and go videotape cops?

PandaLuv
02-09-2011, 1:18 PM
so you can receive a threat, draw your weapon and load it under a second? you sir should be in the guiness book of world records. there is no way you can do that if someone walks up behind you and grabs your weapon or they already have a weapon drawn on you, so lets be honest. and for your information i would bet that i can insert a mag in the one second range, after all i have had plenty of tactical range time when i was a l.e.o


lol nice

N6ATF
02-09-2011, 1:40 PM
Look at the blank line in my sig. The only people going up to UOCers and disarming them are LEOs, because they know they can get away with it with zero immediate or future risk.

I open carry
02-09-2011, 1:50 PM
Back to the thread topic... I didn't catch who was filming. Was it Walter? Sounds like his voice.
LPD most likely has a pic of him by now, and everyone on the force has seen it... or encountered him.
I wouldn't eCheck Walter either if I saw him walking toward me, camera rolling.
Now, let's try it again. Same scene, but not Walter and no camera...

I have, many times in Livermore. I have never been e-checked, and they have had their chance.

Freedom_Is_Popular
02-11-2011, 5:31 PM
I always get a kick out of reading the comments here on Calguns when my open carry encounters are posted. I just wanted to drop in and let you guys know that the officer did see my firearm. He noticed when he was at the light and that's why he pulled into the gas station to observe the situation. I have never had any contact with this officer in the past, but he has my respect. Good cops have no qualms about law abiding people carrying firearms. This was one of Livermore's finest without a doubt. I wish there were more like him.

All the Best, Walter

shocknm
02-11-2011, 6:48 PM
I always get a kick out of reading the comments here on Calguns when my open carry encounters are posted...


Just found my new sig line !

Thanks Walter - And keep up the good fight.

Zimz
02-11-2011, 8:55 PM
The OC "movement" I think is aimed more towards educating the public, not harassing or trying to trap cops. If I were walking around with a visible sidearm in this state, I would probably have a recorder handy too. It's too easy for this legal act to be turned into something ugly by a misinformed cop. I see it as them covering their own butts.

PutTogether
02-11-2011, 10:50 PM
Perhaps, but look at the particulars.

Both are only going to aid you in an advanced perceived threat any way.
EX. Your in a grocery store someone goes nuts, UOC is the first to die, in the mean time LUCC takes off to a place to LOAD and protect him/herself.

You mention quite a few times how often you carry openly and loaded. In your above scenario, wouldn't a loaded open carrier also be the 'first to die?' If so, why jump to the conclusion that all crazed gun attacks are going to be well planned, 'lets take out that guy with the gun first' style organized attacks? Why would these criminals not attack police the same way?

You also mention a few times "what are you going to do if someone sneaks up, points a gun in your face, and says 'gimme your gun?'" I'm not sure how the result of that scenario would be different if your gun was loaded, or even concealed. I guess were the gun concealed you could try to pretend you didn't have a gun, but if a guy is thorough enough, he'll find it. (Especially if he is the same super organized, tactically sound, criminal from above.) In any case, drawing down on a person who has a total drop on you with a gun pointed in your face is borderline suicidal. Plenty of cases where even police give up their guns in scenarios like that.

The other part I don't understand is since you are so insistent on the uselessness of an unloaded firearm.......who cares if Mr. Tactically Sound Organized Attacker DOES steal your UOC gun?



UOC: cop magnet, attracts attention to ones self, most people don't understand why you do it, BAD 2A PUBLICITY because those that don't carry or own won't understand you. General public has great influence over politicians, cops, (dept.policies) judges, teachers, media ect.

I'm not sure I buy this. I would bet money that most people who make the 'man with gun' calls call because they think they've spotted a criminal. When informed it is a normal guy doing nothing wrong......I wager most folks just sigh and say "well I'll be damned, I had no idea you could do that." and promptly forget about it. As most any UOCer will tell you, most people don't notice at all, and if they do notice, couldn't care less.

This "you are scaring all the soccer moms" rings reminiscent of the "there will be blood in the streets if states go shall issue" arguments of the past. It just doesn't seem true.

Sure there are the few crazed lunatics that show up to protest the planned events, but those are hardly the everyday "soccer mom."

The "you don't need to carry a gun in the safe parts of town" argument is equally silly for reasons I shouldn't even need to type out, but I guess I will anyway. First, the very nature of carrying a gun is not knowing whether or not you'll need it. Second, carrying a gun, loaded, unloaded, concealed, or open, does not make it a wise plan to go stomping into the shady areas of town like you are some kind of tough guy. Not a good idea to go somewhere with a gun, that you wouldn't go without a gun.

One could extend the "safe area" argument all the way to neighborhoods. Why do you need to own so many guns? You live in a nice neighborhood. Why do you need to own ANY guns? You live in a gated community.

Doesn't sound so great anymore does it? Oh wait, let me guess. That isn't what YOU mean. YOU know better. Not us, not them, YOU. Funny how human nature defaults that way.

tcd511
02-11-2011, 11:17 PM
The OC "movement" I think is aimed more towards educating the public, not harassing or trying to trap cops. If I were walking around with a visible sidearm in this state, I would probably have a recorder handy too. It's too easy for this legal act to be turned into something ugly by a misinformed cop. I see it as them covering their own butts.

Just curious then....If it is to "educate the public", why does it need to be recorded?

sandman21
02-11-2011, 11:21 PM
Just curious then....If it is to "educate the public", why does it need to be recorded?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=347348

aklover_91
02-11-2011, 11:39 PM
Of course the cops were right there, there's a 24hour doughnut shop just down the street with killer crumb doughnuts. ;) Oh and Simply fondue is right there too, yum.
What are you talking about man? In 14 years I've never seen a Cop in the Donut Wheel.

And if anyone's interested, the Donuts start to come out of the fryer around 2:30-3:00. Try and get the older guy to help you, he'll give you the fresh stuff. The younger chick gives you whatever's stale every time.

AaronHorrocks
02-26-2011, 10:36 PM
all old arguments, have been discussed here many many times.

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

They are also "what if" arguements, When some of us have lived through these similarly real events. It's like arguing with a liberal about gun control... They bring up all of these wild "what if" - 'outta left field' scenarios that may not ever happen, or have only happend once in all of history, in an arguement to try to stop or prevent you from your right of self defense and carry.

Instead of knocking every scenario, tell me when UOC would be helpful. Other than at the starbucks and pizza meet ups for publicity.

Before I've owned a firearm, my very life was in jeaopardy for months on end from a specific identifiable threat. My safety was at the complete willingness of police responce time and chance that they'd actually show up or not. I infact once had to drive into a police station and walk into it for protection after an assualt and subsequent chase for fear of my life. If I had a firearm anywhere near me, there was plenty of time to load a magazine.

I unfortunately know how battered/assaulted/stalked exgirlfriends feel, except that... I no longer have to depend on the police for my personal safety from this repeat offender. I can just shoot him myself.

tcd511
02-27-2011, 5:27 AM
I'm late to the party, but do people actually do this: strap on an unloaded gun and go videotape cops?

Yep they sure due. I am not a big UOC fan because to me it's pointless. As is setting up a possible confrontation with a LEO, recording it in what seems like they are hoping for a negative confrontation and have the camera rolling to show how "they" were so mistreated.

N6ATF
02-27-2011, 11:10 AM
Yep, blame the civil gun owner victims. Those, poor, poor LEOs, they just can't help themselves from violating civil rights (conducting 12031(e) checks, and running IDs, serial numbers, arresting and then unarresting, euphamizing as "detentions").

supra95tt
02-27-2011, 9:35 PM
I like it,however my guess is that since there have been so many instances, particularly in Livermore, where the cops were videotaped and the guns were found to be unloaded and in compliance with the law that the officer didn't want to be another Youtube statistic. If you didn't have a camera with you I bet you would have been subject to the inspection.