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View Full Version : So, let's say I take an anti-shooting... (Worst Case Scenario)


BigFatGuy
02-07-2011, 6:14 PM
It's suggested here more then once that we take an anti shooting. I like the idea, and I may do it one day. But...

How much trouble could I get into if something goes SERIOUSLY wrong? Like, just off the top of my head:

1: he kills himself or someone else (accidentally or otherwise)
2: he shoots himself, someone else, or me non-fatally
3: the cops run in, I look at him, and he goes "Well... there WAS that thing in the '60's... but everybody was trying to overthrow the government back then..."
4: the cops run in, I look at him, and he goes "What? Pot's not a drug, man... it's natural!"

Because, frankly, Anti's don't trust themselves with guns, so I'm not sure i do either.

safewaysecurity
02-07-2011, 6:16 PM
Lol take someone you actually know? I wouldn't just hand a gun to some stranger that's an anti. I hand my guns to people I know are mature and will listen to instructions and are not suicidal.

BigFatGuy
02-07-2011, 6:19 PM
I'm a plan-for-the-worst kind of guy. ;-)

and, seriously, how many serial killers managed to fool their co-workers for years? You never know...

j-rod
02-07-2011, 6:21 PM
The think the unspoken point is take your anti friends shooting. My future wife was 'anti' until I took her shooting. Now she has a rifle and a pistol (both in varying degrees of pink).

Midian
02-07-2011, 6:22 PM
My mother always said

"don't borrow trouble"

choprzrul
02-07-2011, 6:28 PM
Take them to a range where the guns are rented. You just transferred liability (or most of it) to the business.

.

BigFatGuy
02-07-2011, 6:32 PM
Take them to a range where the guns are rented. You just transferred liability (or most of it) to the business.

.

Simple, logical... ashamed I didn't think of it myself.

Experimentalist
02-07-2011, 9:30 PM
I was going to say.... One of the worst case outcomes would be for the borrower to be injured by your firearm. And then said borrower sues you for a whole lot of money.

Of course, we open ourselves up to similar risk of lawsuits when we let others borrow property in general, or enter our homes.

You can mitigate that risk by having the borrower sign a hold-harmless agreement in advance. A bit awkward from a social perspective though.

Sgt5811
02-07-2011, 9:36 PM
The think the unspoken point is take your anti friends shooting. My future wife was 'anti' until I took her shooting. Now she has a rifle and a pistol (both in varying degrees of pink).

Isn't that contradiction? Is it really possible to have friends that are anti? Just asking...
I call it conflict of interest.

GOEX FFF
02-07-2011, 10:06 PM
Might I also make a suggestion. I always keep 6 things in mind taking a new shooter or otherwise "late bloomer" out the range.

1. Refrain from using any Human type targets for a first time shooter.
You're there to teach them how to shoot, its not time yet to start dropping the first BG they can. (See #3)
Let them get comfortable first and use abstract circle targets.. etc.
Or if outdoors at a range use the steel plates.

2. Limited or No political speeches to a first time shooter. Remember again, you're there to educate them on safeties, proper handing and also the Fun of shooting, not to push politics. If they become regular shooters this will all fall into place eventually. If you have any C&Rs, give them a brief history on the said arm, and give them a chance to experiance a true working piece of history.

3. Refrain from any relations such as "Stopping power" or "Deadly" when describing or talking firearms or ammunition.
They don't need to be flooded that firearms are only associated with "killing" things.

4. Encourage accomplishment after they have or tried to hit their target.
Shooting is also being able to challenge yourself to hit the target you're aiming at.
Praise them how they did. It may leave them feeling a sense of achievement at something new.
Maybe make a shooting game like "who ever can shoot out a happy face in the targets wins!".

5. After the day is done, politely thank them for adding to the fun to your own shooting experience and offer them another time to go the range again.

6. HAVE FUN!!!

2ndornone
02-07-2011, 11:32 PM
6. HAVE FUN!!!

7. Let them take their target full of holes home.

Dreaded Claymore
02-07-2011, 11:44 PM
Might I also make a suggestion. I always keep 6 things in mind taking a new shooter or otherwise "late bloomer" out the range.

1. Refrain from using any Human type targets for a first time shooter.
You're there to teach them how to shoot, its not time yet to start dropping the first BG they can. (See #3)
Let them get comfortable first and use abstract circle targets.. etc.
Or if outdoors at a range use the steel plates.

2. Limited or No political speeches to a first time shooter. Remember again, you're there to educate them on safeties, proper handing and also the Fun of shooting, not to push politics. If they become regular shooters this will all fall into place eventually. If you have any C&Rs, give them a brief history on the said arm, and give them a chance to experiance a true working piece of history.

3. Refrain from any relations such as "Stopping power" or "Deadly" when describing or talking firearms or ammunition.
They don't need to be flooded that firearms are only associated with "killing" things.

4. Encourage accomplishment after they have or tried to hit their target.
Shooting is also being able to challenge yourself to hit the target you're aiming at.
Praise them how they did. It may leave them feeling a sense of achievement at something new.
Maybe make a shooting game like "who ever can shoot out a happy face in the targets wins!".

5. After the day is done, politely thank them for adding to the fun to your own shooting experience and offer them another time to go the range again.

6. HAVE FUN!!!

An excellent set of suggestions. Thank you! :)

Onlyincali
02-08-2011, 12:02 AM
Might I also make a suggestion. I always keep 6 things in mind taking a new shooter or otherwise "late bloomer" out the range.

1. Refrain from using any Human type targets for a first time shooter.
You're there to teach them how to shoot, its not time yet to start dropping the first BG they can. (See #3)
Let them get comfortable first and use abstract circle targets.. etc.
Or if outdoors at a range use the steel plates.

2. Limited or No political speeches to a first time shooter. Remember again, you're there to educate them on safeties, proper handing and also the Fun of shooting, not to push politics. If they become regular shooters this will all fall into place eventually. If you have any C&Rs, give them a brief history on the said arm, and give them a chance to experiance a true working piece of history.

3. Refrain from any relations such as "Stopping power" or "Deadly" when describing or talking firearms or ammunition.
They don't need to be flooded that firearms are only associated with "killing" things.

4. Encourage accomplishment after they have or tried to hit their target.
Shooting is also being able to challenge yourself to hit the target you're aiming at.
Praise them how they did. It may leave them feeling a sense of achievement at something new.
Maybe make a shooting game like "who ever can shoot out a happy face in the targets wins!".

5. After the day is done, politely thank them for adding to the fun to your own shooting experience and offer them another time to go the range again.

6. HAVE FUN!!!



You are wiser and more mature than most. I tip my hat to you.

John-Melb
02-08-2011, 12:15 AM
No! don't do it. Do not take an anti anywhere near a range, prior experience shows they will "create" an "incident" to show how dangerous your guns are


Found elsewhere

"Wellington
16/6/98

Dear Mr. Forsyth

Having read your letter in the latest NZ Outdoors mag, I was motivated to sit down and write to you about my experience with Mr. Alpers.

My name is I. Murray and I am currently Vice President of Porirua branch NZDA. Prior to this I was involved as a member and Vice President of Manukau Sporting Rifle Club in Auckland for some 14 years.

I am 47 years of age and have been involved with shooting since I was 12. I am the club range master, (I hold UIT qualification) and I have been responsible for most of the clubs training and public range days
for most of that time. I have represented NZ overseas twice in my chosen sport, Metallic Silhouette (.22 rifle). I tell you this by way, I hope, to prove my commitment to the sport and not to come over as a nut.

Manukau is the largest club in Auckland and probably in New Zealand. On a busy club night we had up to 7-8 details of 12 shooters and it was my job to control all of this.

The club regularly ran open prize shoots open to all, not just club members, (and) these were well attended. We shot indoors on a 25 meter range in a 4p format.


On one of these shoots, a couple of years ago, I was coming out of the range area into the gun-room when a club member asked me if I would please form a firing squad as Mr. Alpers had just arrived. As you can
imagine the air was electric. Club members both male and female were hot. He came in and introduced himself to the president and me, then proceeded to tell us that he was not about taking our right to own guns away, but (he) just wanted to secure a greater degree of safety.

We were all somewhat skeptical but decided to give him a chance. He was invited to have a shoot on the next detail, and was supplied with a club rifle. When the squad entered the range he was on the mat directly in front of the range master, (ME). As was my usual routine,
I went through the range rules, and explained the format and the various calls I would give during the shoot. The most important of which was "Cease-Fire" and "Clear Your Rifles".

The shoot started and on the call "Cease-Fire", a range officer went forward to check each rifle. At this point Mr. Alpers discharged a live round into the floor.

He, looking very sheepish, explained that he was not familiar with this rifle, and so it was once again explained to him and the working of the bolt, etc., shown.

The shoot continued and on the next position, he did exactly the same thing again. He then retired himself from the shoot and spent the next hour or so explaining to all and sundry that he was an experienced shooter and it must be a faulty rifle.

At this point, if a tub of tar and a bag of feathers had been around, I believe they would have been used.

The man is a menace. He is so rapt up in his own spiel that he listens to nothing else. If he has a firearms licence, then it should be revoked. I have heard him speak here in New Zealand and in Australia and I have seen him say one thing to one group and another to the next, as he sees it fit the occasion.

[The letter then continues on to advocate that shooters work together, which under the banner of SSANZ and COLFO, they now are.]

Regards

I. Murray. "

curtisfong
02-08-2011, 10:21 AM
No! don't do it. Do not take an anti anywhere near a range, prior experience shows they will "create" an "incident" to show how dangerous your guns are


Don't be ridiculous. Your singular ridiculous anecdote flies against reason *and* experience. Taking an anti to the range is the best way to make an anti into pro.

curtisfong
02-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Because, frankly, Anti's don't trust themselves with guns, so I'm not sure i do either.

Gun safety applies to everybody. Antis can be trained as easily as anybody else. If you are so incompetent that you can't train somebody to handle a gun safely, then you really are to blame :P

choprzrul
02-08-2011, 10:36 AM
Simple, logical... ashamed I didn't think of it myself.

It also has the benefit of allowing the novice the opportunity to find something that feels good in their hand; and/or try several different models to see what they like the best. They will undoubtedly shoot one model better than the rest. At that point, hang a new target and challenge them to see how small of a group they can shoot. Then compare that target to the first one (if indeed it did get better). Nothing like pointing out an improvement of skill to make an activity enjoyable to a novice.

The 6 steps outlined above are sage advice.

Above all, be safe and have fun.

.

Dhena81
02-08-2011, 11:30 AM
My mom always hated guns she would never let me shoot any of my uncles guns. Then one day she realized how much she hates Fienstien and Boxer so I took her shooting a couple of months ago. She now owns a M&P 9mm and just bought a Mossberg 500 my dad is now scared lol.

She now loves shooting and she had a scary encounter last week at her house some random guy showed up the dogs barking woke her up. She looked at her cameras and this guy was hanging out by some windows with a hoody on. He ended up driving off but she said she was scared but felt safer knowing she was able to protect herself now.

choprzrul
02-08-2011, 2:35 PM
My mom always hated guns she would never let me shoot any of my uncles guns. Then one day she realized how much she hates Fienstien and Boxer so I took her shooting a couple of months ago. She now owns a M&P 9mm and just bought a Mossberg 500 my dad is now scared lol.

She now loves shooting and she had a scary encounter last week at her house some random guy showed up the dogs barking woke her up. She looked at her cameras and this guy was hanging out by some windows with a hoody on. He ended up driving off but she said she was scared but felt safer knowing she was able to protect herself now.

Go Mom!

stix213
02-08-2011, 3:40 PM
My brother's wife was an anti. She said no my brother can't even have a gun in the house, they are dangerous. I took my brother shooting several times without her, which she didn't think was a good idea but we are brothers so she went along with it. It didn't help that most my guns look as evil as I can possibly make them.... cause that's part of the fun :D

We went camping all together, even the anti wife. We were able to convince her to head out to the shooting spot and watch. Another day she was easier to convince to watch. Around here she finally said that she doesn't think guns by themselves are dangerous, but she still doesn't like them. Later we convinced her to take a few shots with the .22. Then another trip she was convinced to shoot my converted Saiga 7.62x39 once..... A few trips after that and she is holding my Saiga at her hip rambo style with her tongue out rapid firing, and telling me how much fun it is. She now says "Your AR is my favorite, but I still think the AK is cool and all" :p

Last time I invited my brother to come out shooting she told me "No your brother can't go... cause its his turn to watch the kid and I get to go this time." She also says its cool now if my brother wants to buy a shotgun or whatever. :D

Slow and steady break down of the anti-gun barrier here
:36:

mjukis
02-08-2011, 4:07 PM
I'll reiterate what several members have said.

Don't be pushy, don't talk politics (at least at first) and just let them learn to enjoy the sport. Shooting IS fun, and once people try it out a few times it is very hard for them to keep up the anti stance...

As several members have said, if possible, start them out with a .22. The low recoil and relatively gentle noise/flash makes it more enjoyable for the beginner. Resist the urge to give them a 12ga slug and film it with your iPhone. When you want to move them up to a larger caliber, shoot the larger caliber and let them watch! Most of the time they will want to try it, even if it takes a while. Again, be polite, OFFER them to try new things, don't push it on them.

We all love guns and shooting here, so sometimes it's hard to imagine that first time shooters can have such strong, often unfounded, opinions against guns. Remember that to them, in their minds, guns really are evil, dangerous, exploding, baby murdering things. In fact, the first time my wife shot a gun, she started crying uncontrollably. Since, she has been convinced by the fun, she now owns guns and is an excellent shooter.

j-rod
02-08-2011, 4:12 PM
Isn't that contradiction? Is it really possible to have friends that are anti? Just asking...
I call it conflict of interest.

Yes. And they tend to be 'anti' because they've because they tow the line with the only crap they've known. All you have to do is expose them to the joys of liberty and they start singing a different tune. They haven't been anti when I finish with them. *

* 2 converts. Not vehemently anti to begin with but prone to the Demasheeple mindset. Both pro gun now that they've had some good hands on experience. :D

QQQ
02-08-2011, 5:06 PM
If an anti friend wants to rent a gun to kill himself with, why would he wait for you to ask him to come along?

The OP's question just seems kind of silly to me.

stix213
02-08-2011, 5:22 PM
If an anti friend wants to rent a gun to kill himself with, why would he wait for you to ask him to come along?

The OP's question just seems kind of silly to me.

The indoor range nearest me doesn't let non-gun owners rent without a friend with them. Specifically to help prevent suicides.

QQQ
02-08-2011, 5:48 PM
The indoor range nearest me doesn't let non-gun owners rent without a friend with them. Specifically to help prevent suicides.

That's what I thought at first but if that was his intention he would ask you to go with him. Or at least bait you into asking him.

BigFatGuy
02-08-2011, 5:57 PM
If an anti friend wants to rent a gun to kill himself with, why would he wait for you to ask him to come along?

I actually meant it to be due to incompetence, not suicide, but if someone figures that picking up a gun is all it takes to become an evil violent killer, I figure that indicates something about their personality.


The OP's question just seems kind of silly to me.

and thank you so much for contributing meaningfully to the thread.

QQQ
02-08-2011, 6:00 PM
I actually meant it to be due to incompetence, not suicide, but if someone figures that picking up a gun is all it takes to become an evil violent killer, I figure that indicates something about their personality.



and thank you so much for contributing meaningfully to the thread.

If you feel uncomfortable or unsafe taking an individual to the range, then don't do it.

There's my meaningful contribution. :cool:

bombadillo
02-08-2011, 6:14 PM
If I were worried that as a potential, any of what you stated may be a problem, I wouldn't take that person. Use your gut for character judgement and if a person seems unstable, they probably are. Don't bring somebody you may think may just start swinging around a gun and firing at random.

John-Melb
02-08-2011, 9:44 PM
Don't be ridiculous. Your singular ridiculous anecdote flies against reason *and* experience. Taking an anti to the range is the best way to make an anti into pro.


If you want to take the risk at your range with one of your guns, be my guest. Experience has shown me that an anti may well create an incident at the range for their own ends. I've also witnessed members of Gun Control Australia suddenly appearing over a hill down range at Eagle Park range in Lara, Victoria, a cease fire was immediately called and we all watched these fools hold hands and sing protest songs. Members of the same group have also tried to get into the same range whilst purporting to be someone else.

Your range, your guns, your risks, my advice is don't, if you or anyone else doesn't want to take my advice, fine.

Morbo
02-09-2011, 7:38 AM
I think you need to consider what you mean by "anti". People like Carolyn McCarthy are not going to be converted, so why would you ruin a trip to the range taking her? However other people I know who I consider "anti" are definitely ripe for conversion.

The best example is my wife, who is Canadian. Most Canadians do not have a strong background with firearms and her family was decidedly anti. She did not want firearms in our house, especially with small children. Until the Los Angeles riot in 1992. As a stay-at-home mom she felt very vulnerable. She began to see the value of firearms but was still not ready to have one in the house. Then there was Katrina. Now she was the one who would start conversations about firearms. Next thing you know we are taking firearms training classes, she is having fun, and now we have a safe full of firearms.

My point is, some people are anti for emotional reasons like McCarthy. They will be tough if not impossible to convert because logic does not play a role in their position. My wife on the other hand was anti out of ignorance. When she saw how firearms could serve her interests (self-protection) and that firearms are not evil, she became ripe to convert. And now she enjoys range days.

By the way, I would recommend spouses not train spouses. The best decision I made was to get professional firearms training for us. There are 2 reasons for this; 1) the class instructor had female assistants who spent a great deal of time with my wife. That calmed her considerably and made her first shooting experience more enjoyable; 2) my wife saw that the class was populated with "regular" people (men and women) of all ages. I think she was afraid of ending up in a class with the characters from Deliverance.

voiceofreason
02-09-2011, 8:06 AM
An hour of casual lesson/lecture on gun safety at home BEFORE entering the range:

eyes/ears; rules of gun safety; allow them to handle and ask questions about the firearms they will be shooting; grip; stance; recoil management; follow through; dry-fire practice; loading; unloading; how to check to make sure the firearms are unloaded


Allow them to shoot ONE single round from the magazine at the time. Then slowly work up to 2, 3, 4... full magazine only once at the END of the range session.

I tend to start them off with a .22 rifle with a red dot scope. Very friendly, easy, and fun.

If they ask about a pistol, then a .22 pistol.

When they inevitably ask about shooting a "big gun"...

"Yes, absolutely... next time. We'll start with .22s again for few minutes and jump right to 9mm next time. When people try to run while they're learning to walk, they tend to trip themselves up. It's better in the INTEREST OF SAFETY."

I get more questions, calls, and follow up emails this way than any other. At least a 1/3 of the time, they want to go the range again. Truthfully, the majority of them do not become gun people, but they DO become less ANTI.

They are AMAZED that the gun doesn't blow up or go off on it's own. Personally, I believe an hour long casual talk session on safety and allowing them to handle them unloaded is the main part of what helps to shift their views slightly. The actual shooting is secondary.

That they can ask questions and do incredibly unadvised things with them in a "safe" and non-judgemental environment that is non-confrontational is an opportunity for them to allay their fears and have all their questions answered no matter how stupid it might seem to them.

Only problem I really run into is that when they actually go to a gun shop or range by themselves (just because, not to buy a gun or anything drastic like that), they have ALWAYS called me complaining about how rude and condescendingly they were treated.

IMHO, "gun shop swagger" is one of the biggest hurdles to more commonplace firearms acceptance in more urban cities.